For the same reason Fidgit has Gust in his movepool or why Krilowatt learns Bubble. Flavor. Competitively, CAP11 will never use anything other than Volt Absorb (unless we give it something blatantly broken), therefore it is entirely suitable to give it a flavor ability. It's something we've never done before, and it would be a really cool addition.Tubaking said:
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
The moderators of this forum can be found in the CAP forum staff directory.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 7a - Secondary Ability Discussion
- Thread starter Fuzznip
- Start date
- Status
As long as we're going with more flavorful abilities, I'd like to propose Steadfast. Volt Absorb takes care of electric attacks but the other part of what makes Togekiss and Jirachi annoying is flinchax. CAP11 doesn't really have the bulk or typing to take either move repeatedly, but if you could do it (say through Bulk Up) then you could get a speed boost to potentially pass as well against these few specific sets (or say Fake Out leads or something).
Otherwise I'd go with No Secondary Ability.
Otherwise I'd go with No Secondary Ability.
Please, no. I don't support Steadfast for the same reason I didn't support Motor Drive: CAP11 with a +1 Speed Boost is a monster, and would pretty much force us to write out Aura Sphere (although it seems likely that's going to happen anyway, I'd really rather not see it lose any hope it has left and have CAP11 be forced to rely on Hidden Power as its Fighting STAB move) as an option if it wins, and I'd really rather have Aura Sphere over Steadfast. Even without Aura Sphere, a CAP11 with +1 Speed is still something that would hardly be pleasant to face, so Steadfast, even if it requires luck to activate and is more situational than Motor Drive, still seems quite off-putting to me.
Inner Focus, I'd be fine with (of course, I personally still would prefer Thick Fat more, but something like that would be cool too), but please, in any case, I just don't want to see any speed-boosting abilities on this thing. It may end up not turning out as badly as I'm thinking, but it's not something I want to risk, especially when other options are open.
People who pick No Secondary Ability in CAP always confuse the hell out of me.
I don't really like that we're just wringing our hands here and saying "volt absorb is fine let's just pick random shit for our secondary ability yeah". Sure, the pair is fine with Volt Absorb, but why not be creative and suggest abilities which help out teams that have Electric attacks covered but need help against other types of attacks? Or even just teams that want CAP11 to cover a different aspect of synergy with Togekiss?
Thick Fat was a good one that was suggested, helping cushion switchins to Heatran and possible Starmie Ice Beams (if it's expecting Togekiss to be paired with a Volt Absorb CAP).
Unburden could be another cool one, resulting in some fun strategies where Togekiss uses Nasty Plot and passes to CAP11, who takes a hit and then uses Rest, uses up a Lum Berry, and ends up with +2/+2. Nice to pull off but also not broken due to high risk and having to give up Life Orb/a moveslot.
Intimdate is also an option, helping the duo take neutral physical hits like Scizor's Bullet Punch, Gyarados' Waterfall, and even ScarfGon Outrage much easier, while also cushioning possible predicted hits from the likes of Tyranitar.
I mean we have options that, sure, will probably be eclipsed by Volt Absorb, but even if one team goes "hey I have two electric immunities and a tyranitar, I think I'll go with Intimidate" then we would have still made a better CAP than if we'd just given it Cute Charm or whatever.
Anyway...if Fuzznip happens to agree that flavor abilities are the most appropriate at this point, that's fine I guess. I would personally like Clear Body in that case, since it fits with the "misunderstood and actually quite pure" flavor idea behind this dark type. But honestly, we should just give it a competitive ability, even if it has marginal benefit...
I don't really like that we're just wringing our hands here and saying "volt absorb is fine let's just pick random shit for our secondary ability yeah". Sure, the pair is fine with Volt Absorb, but why not be creative and suggest abilities which help out teams that have Electric attacks covered but need help against other types of attacks? Or even just teams that want CAP11 to cover a different aspect of synergy with Togekiss?
Thick Fat was a good one that was suggested, helping cushion switchins to Heatran and possible Starmie Ice Beams (if it's expecting Togekiss to be paired with a Volt Absorb CAP).
Unburden could be another cool one, resulting in some fun strategies where Togekiss uses Nasty Plot and passes to CAP11, who takes a hit and then uses Rest, uses up a Lum Berry, and ends up with +2/+2. Nice to pull off but also not broken due to high risk and having to give up Life Orb/a moveslot.
Intimdate is also an option, helping the duo take neutral physical hits like Scizor's Bullet Punch, Gyarados' Waterfall, and even ScarfGon Outrage much easier, while also cushioning possible predicted hits from the likes of Tyranitar.
I mean we have options that, sure, will probably be eclipsed by Volt Absorb, but even if one team goes "hey I have two electric immunities and a tyranitar, I think I'll go with Intimidate" then we would have still made a better CAP than if we'd just given it Cute Charm or whatever.
Anyway...if Fuzznip happens to agree that flavor abilities are the most appropriate at this point, that's fine I guess. I would personally like Clear Body in that case, since it fits with the "misunderstood and actually quite pure" flavor idea behind this dark type. But honestly, we should just give it a competitive ability, even if it has marginal benefit...
I support Inner Focus if only to give CAP 11 a yin to Togekiss's yang. Opposing Togekiss wouldn't be able to flinch-hax CAP 11, which offers a kind of enemy synergy and further ties the two Pokemon together thematically. Most every CAP11 set would be running Volt Absorb anyway, so I'm in favor of a flavor ability. I think Lightning Rod sounds fun as well, which would encourage the use of Togekiss and CAP11 in doubles battles together. Neither ability is competitive, but they're fun.
In my view, once we start suggesting abilities just because we can--for the lulz, if you will--that is a signal that no secondary ability is needed. Flavor is simply not a good enough reason for me to support an ability that will never see use, like lightningrod. As others have noted, it only kicks in in double battles and even then is a pretty lousy ability if the user has no resistance/immunity to electricity. I also want to emphasize that there does not need to be a "free space" for a secondary ability; let's not forget that Pokemon can have a single ability, though Arghonaut is the only CAP who does. If we want to buck the trend of adding a secondary ability as a matter of course for reasons that others have mentioned, now's a good time to do so. I might consider things like thick fat if I thought it over now, but as for the joke abilities, I think we're wasting our time.
If you're on IRC, people saw this post coming:
Hustle
While it's true that Volt Absorb will more than likely be the premier option, I thought that it would be pretty neat for CAP11 to share the same secondary ability as Togekiss. This would add somewhat to the flavor of CAP11's partnership with Togekiss while also having a second ability that isn't generally useless. For those who do not know what Hustle does competitively, here's the description:
Pokémon with this ability do 50% more damage with physical attacks, but physical attacks have 20% less accuracy.
CAP11 has a decidedly average Base 85 Attack stat, which isn't overpowering to say the least. Even with the 50% increase, its Special Attacks still hit just as hard or harder on most targets. Therefore, we aren't gaining any notable OHKO's or 2HKO's that the Special set can't obtain. Also, in order to come close to the damage output of the Special set, you would have to fully invest in Attack and have at least a neutral nature. That means Hustle wouldn't really be the best option on mixed sets either.
To prove that Hustle is somewhat "useless", let's look at some calculations:
These are pretty much the only Pokemon that are 2HKO'd by CAP11 commonly, and as you can see, the added Hustle bonus is inferior to CAP11's Special attacks as a whole, and compared to Physical VA, the only notable differences are on Suicune, Skarmory (unimportant), and 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia. That's it. Thus, this proves that Hustle is inferior offensively compared to Special Volt Absorb CAP11.
Secondly, and most importantly, while Hustle gives CAP11 a nice 50% boost in Physical power, it also drops the accuracy of all said moves by 20%. That means Crunch and Close Combat, with Hustle, will have the same accuracy as a normal Stone Edge. Stone Edge would have the accuracy of about DynamicPunch, but 10% greater. That's a huge turn-off in usage, and quite frankly, may not be worth the risk at all.
The reason to choose Hustle is mostly for flavor reasons. Togekiss also obtains Hustle as its second ability, yet it's almost useless on it anyway. I personally think that it would be cool for CAP11 to share the same "useless" secondary ability that Togekiss has, to further cement the fact that it and Togekiss are supposed to be partnered up as a duo. It also aesthetically makes sense with CAP11 too, since it "works hard" trying to compliment Togekiss, and is fairly speedy to boot. To me, this is a perfect match. Hustle might also gain some niche usage, which would be pretty neat.
Hustle
While it's true that Volt Absorb will more than likely be the premier option, I thought that it would be pretty neat for CAP11 to share the same secondary ability as Togekiss. This would add somewhat to the flavor of CAP11's partnership with Togekiss while also having a second ability that isn't generally useless. For those who do not know what Hustle does competitively, here's the description:
Pokémon with this ability do 50% more damage with physical attacks, but physical attacks have 20% less accuracy.
CAP11 has a decidedly average Base 85 Attack stat, which isn't overpowering to say the least. Even with the 50% increase, its Special Attacks still hit just as hard or harder on most targets. Therefore, we aren't gaining any notable OHKO's or 2HKO's that the Special set can't obtain. Also, in order to come close to the damage output of the Special set, you would have to fully invest in Attack and have at least a neutral nature. That means Hustle wouldn't really be the best option on mixed sets either.
To prove that Hustle is somewhat "useless", let's look at some calculations:
252 Atk Neutral Volt Absorb CAP11's STABs:
Close Combat:
Defensive Suicune: 31.4% - 37.1% (3HKO after SR)
Snorlax: 91.8% - 108.5%
Blissey: 97.5% - 114.6%
Spiker Skarmory: 34.4% - 40.7%
Crunch:
Defensive Celebi: 46.5% - 55.4% (2HKO after SR)
252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 36.9% - 43.7%
252 / 200 Calm Cresselia: 41.9% - 50% (potential 2HKO after SR)
252 Atk Neutral Hustle CAP11's STABs:
Close Combat:
Defensive Suicune: 46.3% - 55%
Spiker Skarm: 51.2% - 60.5%
Crunch:
Defensive Celebi: 69.8% - 82.2% (2HKO after SR)
252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 54.5% - 64.9%
252 / 200 Calm Cresselia: 62.6% - 74.3%
252 SpA Neutral Volt Absorb CAP11's STABs:
Focus Blast:
Defensive Suicune: 57% - 67.5%
Spiker Skarm: 88% - 103.6%
Dark Pulse:
Defensive Celebi: 71.8% - 85.1%
252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 53.2% - 62.6%
252 / 200 Calm Cresselia: 45.9% - 54.1%
Close Combat:
Defensive Suicune: 31.4% - 37.1% (3HKO after SR)
Snorlax: 91.8% - 108.5%
Blissey: 97.5% - 114.6%
Spiker Skarmory: 34.4% - 40.7%
Crunch:
Defensive Celebi: 46.5% - 55.4% (2HKO after SR)
252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 36.9% - 43.7%
252 / 200 Calm Cresselia: 41.9% - 50% (potential 2HKO after SR)
252 Atk Neutral Hustle CAP11's STABs:
Close Combat:
Defensive Suicune: 46.3% - 55%
Spiker Skarm: 51.2% - 60.5%
Crunch:
Defensive Celebi: 69.8% - 82.2% (2HKO after SR)
252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 54.5% - 64.9%
252 / 200 Calm Cresselia: 62.6% - 74.3%
252 SpA Neutral Volt Absorb CAP11's STABs:
Focus Blast:
Defensive Suicune: 57% - 67.5%
Spiker Skarm: 88% - 103.6%
Dark Pulse:
Defensive Celebi: 71.8% - 85.1%
252 / 252 Bold Cresselia: 53.2% - 62.6%
252 / 200 Calm Cresselia: 45.9% - 54.1%
These are pretty much the only Pokemon that are 2HKO'd by CAP11 commonly, and as you can see, the added Hustle bonus is inferior to CAP11's Special attacks as a whole, and compared to Physical VA, the only notable differences are on Suicune, Skarmory (unimportant), and 252 / 252 Bold Cresselia. That's it. Thus, this proves that Hustle is inferior offensively compared to Special Volt Absorb CAP11.
Secondly, and most importantly, while Hustle gives CAP11 a nice 50% boost in Physical power, it also drops the accuracy of all said moves by 20%. That means Crunch and Close Combat, with Hustle, will have the same accuracy as a normal Stone Edge. Stone Edge would have the accuracy of about DynamicPunch, but 10% greater. That's a huge turn-off in usage, and quite frankly, may not be worth the risk at all.
The reason to choose Hustle is mostly for flavor reasons. Togekiss also obtains Hustle as its second ability, yet it's almost useless on it anyway. I personally think that it would be cool for CAP11 to share the same "useless" secondary ability that Togekiss has, to further cement the fact that it and Togekiss are supposed to be partnered up as a duo. It also aesthetically makes sense with CAP11 too, since it "works hard" trying to compliment Togekiss, and is fairly speedy to boot. To me, this is a perfect match. Hustle might also gain some niche usage, which would be pretty neat.
Flavour of what, may I ask?
It seems to me the art poll hasn't been decided yet. Lightning rod means this CAP attracts lightning. Let's say, hypothetically, Buffalo wing's kung-fu CAP wins. His flavour is that his cap actively tries to avoid lightning bolts! Seems like bad flavour to have it automatically take lightning bolts.
I don't understand how you can argue flavour for a CAP that currently has no direction, and could be hindered by the imposition of Rod. Unless the abilities should dictate the art flavour and not vice versa, but why compromise the artists like that? They are already bending over backwards to accommodate volt absorb.
Personally, I think No Secondary Ability is truly necessary in this case, but if we're looking for options, I'd like to throw out Inner Focus.
Not only is it true to the concept and typing (relatively minor points to be honest) it gives CAP 11 an interesting option in dealing with Fake Out leads, other Flinch Hax, and even Gyarados to a degree whose primary attack is Waterfall.
Another ability I'd like to throw out, and this works best for Synergy, is Sticky Hold. Before you think I'm crazy I'd like to point something out that damages a synergy team, and that's Trick. If either member is Choiced, it damages the ability for a pair to take on threats when locked into a single move. It also deals with Knock Off for the few Pokemon that carry it.
I tend to both agree and disagree on Thick Fat. It trades an immunity to one type for a resistance to others, but CAP 11 has very few notable weaknesses anyway. True, Togekiss is weak against Ice, but where does the Fire resistance help to further the concept. In fact, with Fighting STAB, it just Makes Cap 11 better against Heatran, which comes out of left field.
Then again, with Volt Absorb bound to be the clear favorite, if there is a second ability at all, it should be one that fills a nitche for very specific teams and roles.
Not only is it true to the concept and typing (relatively minor points to be honest) it gives CAP 11 an interesting option in dealing with Fake Out leads, other Flinch Hax, and even Gyarados to a degree whose primary attack is Waterfall.
Another ability I'd like to throw out, and this works best for Synergy, is Sticky Hold. Before you think I'm crazy I'd like to point something out that damages a synergy team, and that's Trick. If either member is Choiced, it damages the ability for a pair to take on threats when locked into a single move. It also deals with Knock Off for the few Pokemon that carry it.
I tend to both agree and disagree on Thick Fat. It trades an immunity to one type for a resistance to others, but CAP 11 has very few notable weaknesses anyway. True, Togekiss is weak against Ice, but where does the Fire resistance help to further the concept. In fact, with Fighting STAB, it just Makes Cap 11 better against Heatran, which comes out of left field.
Then again, with Volt Absorb bound to be the clear favorite, if there is a second ability at all, it should be one that fills a nitche for very specific teams and roles.
Hello again. Why are we all limiting our considerations based solely on Togekiss's type weaknesses? If that's all an ability's good for for this CAP, then I'd be all for NSA. But how does Togekiss help out CAP 11? Is CAP just a sidekick or an assistant or is it a true partner? I think there is one ability that would really benefit CAP while giving Togekiss a chance to plug some some of CAP's holes in order to make it a true partnership. So, without further ado, how about we give Hustle a try? Reasons are as follows:
With Hustle, it's basically a risk/reward kind of system. The drop in accuracy will be a huge issue for more conservative players, while the boost in Attack and ability to go mixed will be a boon to more reckless players who want to dart quickly back and forth and get a lot of damage out on the field quickly or want a certain degree of surprise factor.
EDIT: Whoops looks like I'm a little slow on the uptake here, although I don't agree with DrkSlay that it's a useless ability.
1) Flavor reasoning (let's get this out of the way first):
i) it's Togekiss's secondary ability, so a connection can be made there. Kiss can use it to some niche effect on mixed attacking sets, as can CAP.
ii) it fits a Fighting-type flavor-wise
2) It gives CAP a legitimate physical presence and ability to go mixed, as opposed to Togekiss's predictable special inclination, at the expense of 20% accuracy and an Electric immunity. This could go a long way in plugging up more offense-minded Togekiss' holes, especially in dealing with Blissey / Snorlax, who remain relatively untouchable with a purely special build.
0 Atk Volt Absorb CAP 11 CC/Superpower vs. 252/252+ Blissey: 57.1% - 67.5%
vs. 168/120 Snorlax: 53.7% - 63.6% (+1 Def: 36.2% - 42.9%)
0 Atk Hustle CAP 11 CC/Superpower vs. 252/252+ Blissey: 85.7% - 101.1%
vs. 168/120 Snorlax: 81.1% - 95.4% (+1 Def: 53.7% - 63.6%)
The difference is notable. Running CC or Superpower just to hit these two for a 2HKO at best is most often not going to be worth the moveslot or EVs necessary to do any sort of damage to other Pokemon. Hustle closes in this gap and allows CAP to have the offensive presence it needs to handle a variety of opponents.
3) Togekiss is a hax machine and is infamous for giving a player's team extra turns. The accuracy drop from Hustle would have a reverse sort of effect, where players may find themselves losing turns on the opposite end of the hax spectrum, which is where Togekiss can come in for some Wish healing, Heal Belling, and/or possible dispensation of the troublesome enemy in order to better aid CAP. In return, CAP 11 can hit many of Kiss's problematic opponents much harder (read: Starmie and Rotom-A). In fact, with SR, 252 Atk EVs, a neutral nature, and a Life Orb, CAP 11 OHKOs defensive Rotom-A with Pursuit!
4) Functionally, it plays a wildly different role than Volt Absorb while staying within the bounds of the concept, imo. Where one is more defensively-oriented, the other is offensively-oriented and gives CAP a chance to shine in a mixed-offensive role with Togekiss filling in the gaps, as opposed to vice-versa, as have been the considerations thus far.
i) it's Togekiss's secondary ability, so a connection can be made there. Kiss can use it to some niche effect on mixed attacking sets, as can CAP.
ii) it fits a Fighting-type flavor-wise
2) It gives CAP a legitimate physical presence and ability to go mixed, as opposed to Togekiss's predictable special inclination, at the expense of 20% accuracy and an Electric immunity. This could go a long way in plugging up more offense-minded Togekiss' holes, especially in dealing with Blissey / Snorlax, who remain relatively untouchable with a purely special build.
0 Atk Volt Absorb CAP 11 CC/Superpower vs. 252/252+ Blissey: 57.1% - 67.5%
vs. 168/120 Snorlax: 53.7% - 63.6% (+1 Def: 36.2% - 42.9%)
0 Atk Hustle CAP 11 CC/Superpower vs. 252/252+ Blissey: 85.7% - 101.1%
vs. 168/120 Snorlax: 81.1% - 95.4% (+1 Def: 53.7% - 63.6%)
The difference is notable. Running CC or Superpower just to hit these two for a 2HKO at best is most often not going to be worth the moveslot or EVs necessary to do any sort of damage to other Pokemon. Hustle closes in this gap and allows CAP to have the offensive presence it needs to handle a variety of opponents.
3) Togekiss is a hax machine and is infamous for giving a player's team extra turns. The accuracy drop from Hustle would have a reverse sort of effect, where players may find themselves losing turns on the opposite end of the hax spectrum, which is where Togekiss can come in for some Wish healing, Heal Belling, and/or possible dispensation of the troublesome enemy in order to better aid CAP. In return, CAP 11 can hit many of Kiss's problematic opponents much harder (read: Starmie and Rotom-A). In fact, with SR, 252 Atk EVs, a neutral nature, and a Life Orb, CAP 11 OHKOs defensive Rotom-A with Pursuit!
4) Functionally, it plays a wildly different role than Volt Absorb while staying within the bounds of the concept, imo. Where one is more defensively-oriented, the other is offensively-oriented and gives CAP a chance to shine in a mixed-offensive role with Togekiss filling in the gaps, as opposed to vice-versa, as have been the considerations thus far.
With Hustle, it's basically a risk/reward kind of system. The drop in accuracy will be a huge issue for more conservative players, while the boost in Attack and ability to go mixed will be a boon to more reckless players who want to dart quickly back and forth and get a lot of damage out on the field quickly or want a certain degree of surprise factor.
EDIT: Whoops looks like I'm a little slow on the uptake here, although I don't agree with DrkSlay that it's a useless ability.
You would vote for Lightningrod or Pick Up or Run Away or any other useless ability for the same competitive reasons as you would vote for no secondary ability, plus flavour reasons.
Unless the secondary ability were something like No Guard or Pure Power or Magic Guard or some other generic awesome ability that people somehow try to make relevant to the concept. (Don't worry X-Act, I did actually read the rest of your post.)
I'm inclined to go for no secondary ability or a useless secondary ability. I'd give my full reasoning but a lot of it doesn't pertain directly to CAP11's secondary ability. Suffice to say, I've seen the same phenomenon that bugmaniacbob has seen, though he certainly has experienced it more than I have.
EDIT:
And if they successfully accommodate Volt Absorb, then by extension they will have covered Lightningrod since both abilities involve taking Electric-type attacks.
Genius Korski, pure genius. There's really not much else I can do to voice my support, you've covered it well, but I think the point does need to be reinforced.
The idea of a different ability depending on the role is important, as I doubt that everyone is going to play CAP 11 the same way. The idea of a defensive and offensive ability, while still staying in concept is wonderful, and you've obviously thought this out quite thoroughly.
While Volt Absorb is likely to be the default, Hustle vills a void for certain playstyles of certain players, and the math backs up the ability to take down Blissey, one of CAP11's rivals (or any special attacker for that matter) that Togekiss won't be able to handle easily with Thunder Wave and Toxic so prevalent.
Also, I like the option to open up CAP 11 as a Mixed Pokemon. If it's given only one option, countering will be easy, so why not a little variety to make the game more interesting?
I wasn't sold on a second ability, but now I can't imagine it any other way. I hope support falls in line.
The idea of a different ability depending on the role is important, as I doubt that everyone is going to play CAP 11 the same way. The idea of a defensive and offensive ability, while still staying in concept is wonderful, and you've obviously thought this out quite thoroughly.
While Volt Absorb is likely to be the default, Hustle vills a void for certain playstyles of certain players, and the math backs up the ability to take down Blissey, one of CAP11's rivals (or any special attacker for that matter) that Togekiss won't be able to handle easily with Thunder Wave and Toxic so prevalent.
Also, I like the option to open up CAP 11 as a Mixed Pokemon. If it's given only one option, countering will be easy, so why not a little variety to make the game more interesting?
I wasn't sold on a second ability, but now I can't imagine it any other way. I hope support falls in line.
Steadfast's activation requirement is so rare that I don't see how it's a huge problem. It requires CAP11 take damage on an effect that never activates on the switchin. Essentially you'd be trying to sweep from 50% health off 105 Base SpA. The idea CAP11 is going to sweep with +1 Speed is ludicrous.
Scarf Jirachi Iron Head to 4 HP /252 SpA / 252 Spe Naive CAP11: 41-48.4%.
Or basically you're hoping for a 60% effect to boost your speed above Scarfrachi. You're almost 2HKO'd and if Stealth Rock and Sandstorm are active, any time you aren't flinched is a game over for the Life Orb set.
Fake Out is not popular enough to really warrant discussion, and the other Serene Grace abuser is Togekiss.
NP Kiss Air Slash to 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Hasty CAP11: 88.2-104.3%
This might as well be a OHKO because after Life Orb damage and any feild effect or hazard, it's goodnight. NP Kiss doesn't even run max SpA; ScarfKiss does 95-112%.
So the only move CAP11 might legitimately try to use to activate Steadfast is essentially a 2HKO. Leadape doesn't really care because you're already faster than it, and if you try to build up defenses you still can't remove LeadApe's Sash.
Though really I'm not at all opposed to Inner Focus, I just don't think Steadfast is actually competitive whatsoever, and fears of +1 Speed are near-pointless. Without Flamethrower/Fire Blast there's no way CAP11 is even going to be able to stop Jirachi in one turn, much less sweep the opposing team. Further since you aren't using Volt Absorb non-Scarf variants can just TWave you.
I agree that Steadfast or Inner Focus would be the best choices for a secondary ability.
Inner Focus would give CaP 11 the ability to take out Jirachis that spam flinching attacks, such as iron head, which is deadly not only to Togekiss, but most other Pokemon.
Steadfast would boost CaP 11's already good speed if it were to get hit by one of these flinch-causing moves, allowing it to have a better chance at fighting back.
Inner Focus would give CaP 11 the ability to take out Jirachis that spam flinching attacks, such as iron head, which is deadly not only to Togekiss, but most other Pokemon.
Steadfast would boost CaP 11's already good speed if it were to get hit by one of these flinch-causing moves, allowing it to have a better chance at fighting back.
Why not Serene Grace? Togekiss loves paralysis support that can be found in Force Palm, possibly discharge if we give it some Electric moves for either flavour or competitive reasons, and if paralysis is being spread anyway, Dark Pulse's flinch % going up to 40 (0.75*0.6=0.45) means that the opponent will have less than half the chance to attack, while being hit with a strong STAB. Although it may be inferior to Volt Absorb, it can still find a nice niché on other sets or act as a vicious surprise-hax. With a little bit of luck you could even fake running Volt Absorb, pretending the doubled chance for secondary effects is just a lucky streak.
I like Thick Fat. Togekiss hates Ice attacks and certainly does not appreciate Heatran or Infernape firing Fire Blasts around, plus it would make pokemon second-guess firing ANY attack that is super effective at Togekiss, because there is a chance that CAP11 resists it or is immune to it (Rock is always resist, Electric is immune with one ability, Ice is resisted with the other-it gives great synergy with Togekiss). At this point CAP11 doesn't really need an ability to mesh offensively with Togekiss, but what it does need is to be able to switch into common Togekiss counters and moves thrown at Togekiss. On top of this, Thick Fat would discourage people from blindly firing Ice attacks at Togekiss, which is bound to happen if Volt Absorb is the only (viable) ability. Indeed, all it would lead to is a rise in the usage of ice-type moves. With Thick Fat as a secondary ability, people may go for neutral damage on Togekiss instead of blindly throwing out Super Effective attacks that CAP11 may or may not be able to tank.
Like FimPhym said, I think Inner Focus makes sense within the theme, and I think it'd be interesting to see CAP11 be able to both aid and stand up against Togekiss.
I don't think we should not give CAP 11 a secondary ability. The more variety the better right? At the same time, I think giving Cap 11 an ability that is to strong is a bad idea. (Abilities like guts, no guard etc)
That's why I want to propose Inner Focus
It's not a particularly strong ability, but it's not absolutely useless either. (Lightning Rod is absolutely useless in standard) and it fits with the fighting type mold.
Edit: Benthenoob... creepy coincidence.
That's why I want to propose Inner Focus
It's not a particularly strong ability, but it's not absolutely useless either. (Lightning Rod is absolutely useless in standard) and it fits with the fighting type mold.
Edit: Benthenoob... creepy coincidence.
I would go with with either Thick Fat or Steadfast because ice is another problem with Kiss, so thick fat can be useful for taking ice attacks.
Steadfast is always cool because getting a speed boost its alright and makes the CAP pokemon fare better against the hax king: Jirachi, by eating up iron heads and whatnot and using the flinch to gain speed, also steadfast would make the CAP me a good lead against flinch leads or fakeout leads
Steadfast is always cool because getting a speed boost its alright and makes the CAP pokemon fare better against the hax king: Jirachi, by eating up iron heads and whatnot and using the flinch to gain speed, also steadfast would make the CAP me a good lead against flinch leads or fakeout leads
I did an ability run-through before, and so I'll do it again. I'll start with abilities that others have mentioned that I outright don't like, but I won't mention abilities I bashed last time.
Inner Focus: This is supposed to help beat Jirachi, but as Deck Knight calculated, it doesn't do enough. no
Marvel Scale: The boost from getting poisoned seems like an interesting idea, but ultimately it just doesn't seem to fit. Your Def is boosted... but you're poisoned -.- Not to mention CAP 11 has Taunt as a Type-Move requirement. no
Sticky Hold: Togekiss honestly doesn't come across as a Trick magnet to me. Because of this, the argument for this is rather weak. no
Static: Yet another example of people not knowing how an ability works. None of what CAP 11 wants to switch into is a contact move. This amounts to a possible "screw you" to enemies wanting to Close Combat CAP 11 for the KO. I just don't like hax abilities... no
Steadfast: Same reasons Deck Knight stated, mainly it is simply unreliable. no
Unburden: The possibility of CAP 11 going it alone seems interesting, but I feel that CAP 11 is already good enough as a standalone and Togekiss really ought to be an improvement to it. no
I'd like to discuss stat-altering abilities as a whole because they're something that I almost outright rejected before Rising_Dusk convinced me to reconsider Motor Drive and then abandoned the idea. I'd like to say right now that I do not want the second ability to outclass Volt Absorb significantly, and due to the evidence thrown around last time, I'm rejecting Motor Drive under this conviction. However, the ability must also be a convincing alternative to Volt Absorb. (More on flavor abilities later.)
The abilities suggested so far that attempt to alter stats, or have a roughly equivalent effect, are Download, Hustle and No Guard (which I considered supporting last time). I'd first like to address the physical boosters. Consider that CAP 11's Close Combat can already be made almost as powerful as Scizor's Technician Bullet Punch. Consider also that CAP 11 is nearly guaranteed to have Bulk Up and Taunt as Type-Move requirements. Hustle and physical Download have the potential to be overpowered. If I were to choose one of the two, I'd go with Download because of the lack of a luck factor. However, one should also consider a "weaker" ability like Adaptability to boost CAP 11's STABs instead. Special boosters are in a similar predicament. Special Download may prove to be overpowered if we're not careful. Interestingly, if we consider Aura Sphere vs Focus Blast, Adaptability and No Guard provide the same special offensive boost, though Adaptability also boost physical STAB and doesn't do anything to opponents' accuracy. I'd like to stress the "overpowered" worry for both spectra because we did set base stat limits and these abilities basically attempt to break past them.
Lastly, I'd like to address two abilities meant to patch up type and status weaknesses. Thick Fat is an ability that I ultimately rejected last time because it didn't seem all that helpful compared to Volt Absorb, but it seems to me like a decent alternative ability because of Starmie and bulky Waters in particular (though I'd imagine that CAP 11 would still have trouble with bulky Waters). The other ability is one that I supported last time, Immunity, which also seems to me like a good alternative ability if the team builder is worried more about defensive threats throwing Toxic around.
So at this moment, the abilities that I believe are far and away the most appropriate for the alternative ability are Adaptability, Thick Fat and Immunity.
P.S. To the people suggesting flavor abilities: I believe that you should merely push for a No Secondary Ability while putting forward the possibility of a flavor ability. This kind of thing ought to be decided after the concept art is chosen.
Inner Focus: This is supposed to help beat Jirachi, but as Deck Knight calculated, it doesn't do enough. no
Marvel Scale: The boost from getting poisoned seems like an interesting idea, but ultimately it just doesn't seem to fit. Your Def is boosted... but you're poisoned -.- Not to mention CAP 11 has Taunt as a Type-Move requirement. no
Sticky Hold: Togekiss honestly doesn't come across as a Trick magnet to me. Because of this, the argument for this is rather weak. no
Static: Yet another example of people not knowing how an ability works. None of what CAP 11 wants to switch into is a contact move. This amounts to a possible "screw you" to enemies wanting to Close Combat CAP 11 for the KO. I just don't like hax abilities... no
Steadfast: Same reasons Deck Knight stated, mainly it is simply unreliable. no
Unburden: The possibility of CAP 11 going it alone seems interesting, but I feel that CAP 11 is already good enough as a standalone and Togekiss really ought to be an improvement to it. no
I'd like to discuss stat-altering abilities as a whole because they're something that I almost outright rejected before Rising_Dusk convinced me to reconsider Motor Drive and then abandoned the idea. I'd like to say right now that I do not want the second ability to outclass Volt Absorb significantly, and due to the evidence thrown around last time, I'm rejecting Motor Drive under this conviction. However, the ability must also be a convincing alternative to Volt Absorb. (More on flavor abilities later.)
The abilities suggested so far that attempt to alter stats, or have a roughly equivalent effect, are Download, Hustle and No Guard (which I considered supporting last time). I'd first like to address the physical boosters. Consider that CAP 11's Close Combat can already be made almost as powerful as Scizor's Technician Bullet Punch. Consider also that CAP 11 is nearly guaranteed to have Bulk Up and Taunt as Type-Move requirements. Hustle and physical Download have the potential to be overpowered. If I were to choose one of the two, I'd go with Download because of the lack of a luck factor. However, one should also consider a "weaker" ability like Adaptability to boost CAP 11's STABs instead. Special boosters are in a similar predicament. Special Download may prove to be overpowered if we're not careful. Interestingly, if we consider Aura Sphere vs Focus Blast, Adaptability and No Guard provide the same special offensive boost, though Adaptability also boost physical STAB and doesn't do anything to opponents' accuracy. I'd like to stress the "overpowered" worry for both spectra because we did set base stat limits and these abilities basically attempt to break past them.
Lastly, I'd like to address two abilities meant to patch up type and status weaknesses. Thick Fat is an ability that I ultimately rejected last time because it didn't seem all that helpful compared to Volt Absorb, but it seems to me like a decent alternative ability because of Starmie and bulky Waters in particular (though I'd imagine that CAP 11 would still have trouble with bulky Waters). The other ability is one that I supported last time, Immunity, which also seems to me like a good alternative ability if the team builder is worried more about defensive threats throwing Toxic around.
So at this moment, the abilities that I believe are far and away the most appropriate for the alternative ability are Adaptability, Thick Fat and Immunity.
P.S. To the people suggesting flavor abilities: I believe that you should merely push for a No Secondary Ability while putting forward the possibility of a flavor ability. This kind of thing ought to be decided after the concept art is chosen.
What about good old-fashioned Guts?
Nearly all Fighting-types have it, and it would make switching to WoW/Toxic actually beneficial.
It would be more of a "surprising but not that useful" ability that is overshadowed by VA. Also, it could make CB sets slightly more viable if you want a bit more power vs survivability. Don't forget that it would also make it harder to wall the duo as they would hit on both sides of the spectrum.
Nearly all Fighting-types have it, and it would make switching to WoW/Toxic actually beneficial.
It would be more of a "surprising but not that useful" ability that is overshadowed by VA. Also, it could make CB sets slightly more viable if you want a bit more power vs survivability. Don't forget that it would also make it harder to wall the duo as they would hit on both sides of the spectrum.
I tend to disagree on Hustle being potentially overpowered. You forget that there is a 20% decrease in accuracy, though the raw power provides balance. Bulk-Up, or any stat booster for that matter, is bound to have a hit along with it, unless a switch out is forced, and even then, CAP 11's speed isn't exactly blistering when up against the fastest threats or anything with a Choice Scarf.
The issue with Guts is that you need a status to activate it, which whatever way you slice it, has some negative points. Thick Fat is just another defensive ability when CAP 11 is made as a Special Attacker, not a wall. Hustle brings out those attacking qualities, without having to be activated by status, (unless an orb is held, not guaranteed in the first place) causing an uphill climb.
As for No Guard, I can see the potential. While not a wall, CAP 11 can take some hits, and is helped by Wish support. Dynamic Punch, and other 80% accurate moves benefit, true enough. But on the flip side, unlike the other No Guard abuser Machamp, CAP 11 doesn't have the massive attacking stats (and possibly move versatility, though we haven't gotten there yet) to truly abuse No Guard.
Consider the flip-side, the inability to be missed. Many of the same moves CAP 11 will be packing to benefit from No Guard (Dynamic Punch, Focus Blast, ect.) Are going to hit for super effective damage because of the Dark-type, and Togekiss, while having benefits in Air Slash, can't switch in to handle those threats. It doesn't have the defense to keep taking damage, even with resistance, and is bound to be hit by Stealth Rock.
I do agree with a secondary ability that helps CAP 11 offensively on the physical side, but Hustle boosts most for your money, and has the most manageable drawback in Togekiss's, Heal Bell and Wish.
The issue with Guts is that you need a status to activate it, which whatever way you slice it, has some negative points. Thick Fat is just another defensive ability when CAP 11 is made as a Special Attacker, not a wall. Hustle brings out those attacking qualities, without having to be activated by status, (unless an orb is held, not guaranteed in the first place) causing an uphill climb.
As for No Guard, I can see the potential. While not a wall, CAP 11 can take some hits, and is helped by Wish support. Dynamic Punch, and other 80% accurate moves benefit, true enough. But on the flip side, unlike the other No Guard abuser Machamp, CAP 11 doesn't have the massive attacking stats (and possibly move versatility, though we haven't gotten there yet) to truly abuse No Guard.
Consider the flip-side, the inability to be missed. Many of the same moves CAP 11 will be packing to benefit from No Guard (Dynamic Punch, Focus Blast, ect.) Are going to hit for super effective damage because of the Dark-type, and Togekiss, while having benefits in Air Slash, can't switch in to handle those threats. It doesn't have the defense to keep taking damage, even with resistance, and is bound to be hit by Stealth Rock.
I do agree with a secondary ability that helps CAP 11 offensively on the physical side, but Hustle boosts most for your money, and has the most manageable drawback in Togekiss's, Heal Bell and Wish.
This makes the most sense to me out of any of the other options. Just because most people would stick with volt absorb doesn't mean that there should be a useless/non-existent secondary. Also, flavor isn't what CAP is about, so lightning rod is just stupid.
If we go with Unburden, I want it on record that I was the first person to bring it up.
Immunity is another secondary ability I'd support for people who really hate Toxic stall and have electric totally covered. If we're going to put a decent secondary ability, we should make it one that helps against a certain pokeon that Togekiss and your team in general has problems with.
I kind of like the idea of Unburden. Instead of going the standard "Life Orb sweeper that absorbs T-Waves with Volt Absorb" way, we could use Lum Berry and turn CAP 11 into a Pokemon that punishes you for putting any type of status on him. Not only does this make CAP 11 extremely deadly, it also complements Togekiss by encouraging switch-ins into status moves (notably paralysis).
- Status