NP: UU - Silent Night

[FlareBlitz]

Chansey is not 2hko'd by Modest LO Focus Blast.

Even if you catch it on the switch and it manages to hit both times (about as likely as Zap Cannon hitting), it rolls 49% max which, with Leftovers, means that even after SR you're not grabbing the kill unless you roll max damage both times. Taking everything into account this has a less-than-10% chance of happening. You might as well say Scizor counters Gyarados when Bullet Punch crits.

I haven't said anything about Alakazam so far, because frankly there's no point (it's not going to go to BL), but the only time I've ever had trouble with alakazam is if you manage to lure and weaken Spiritomb with both Mismagius AND Hitmonlee and if you manage to kill Arcanine somehow. That is not "little support"; Chatot could sweep with less support than that. Your team is built around Alakazam, which is great and probably why it's so successful for you. My team is built around Jynx and I secure a Jynx sweep more often than not, but you don't see me nominating it...although that wouldn't be a bad idea with people nominating shit like Leafeon and Aggron.

 

[Thund91]

I don't know why your so hung up on Modest because that speed cut hurts Alakazam badly anyway. Tying with Missy, Scyther and Manectric, and straight up losing to Dugtrio (Dugtrio should just EQ Zam) and Sceptile is not worth the potential chance of 2HKO Chansey with Focus Blast.

Because no one expects Modest Zam, and it gets the KO's that I want.

I haven't said anything about Alakazam so far, because frankly there's no point (it's not going to go to BL), but the only time I've ever had trouble with alakazam is if you manage to lure and weaken Spiritomb with both Mismagius AND Hitmonlee and if you manage to kill Arcanine somehow. That is not "little support"; Chatot could sweep with less support than that. Your team is built around Alakazam, which is great and probably why it's so successful for you. My team is built around Jynx and I secure a Jynx sweep more often than not, but you don't see me nominating it...although that wouldn't be a bad idea with people nominating shit like Leafeon and Aggron.

I only have one team built around Zam, and I didn't even use that this round. I just stick it onto offensive teams and it works awesome.

I'm still a firm believer that any team without Spiritomb has a big Zam weak, and seeing how you have one on like all your teams you're always covered, but Spiritomb doesn't fit every team.

I agree with one part of your post though, there's no point in discussing this because it seems UU and its players are in a "safe" zone where they're all happy. That's fine, I don't have a problem with that. At least we got a few pages of discussion in rather than "this is what I use and let me show it to you."

 

[Bad Ass]

hi what does it matter what attack moves venusaur has? and it was just one example. i can say the same about feraligatr. or mismagius. or anything.

if you u turn from scyther/swellow into alakazam from registeel or spiritomb or milotic...lol.

| Alakazam | Nature | Modest | 23.1 |
| Alakazam | Item | Life Orb | 25.2 |

dont try.

 

[shrang]

There are a lot of bad UU players out there and even a lot of good UU players don't pay a lot of attention sometimes. This may have exaggerated the effectiveness of some of the more dangerous UUs.

Hell, look at Smurf and how many people he owned with a Nasty Plot Porygon-Z in the lead position a few months ago. Good players, even. But no one used that as an argument for Porygon-Z being BL afaik.

Lol I am going to quote this for truth. UU is a stinker these days. About 10% of the teams I play are actually decent in some way, the rest are garbage. No offense to WhiteQueen and his team, but if you can make it to #1 with a team consisting of 4 Ice Pokemon spamming Blizzard with utterly no synergy whatsoever, you have a problem.

 

[Thund91]

hi what does it matter what attack moves venusaur has? and it was just one example. i can say the same about feraligatr. or mismagius. or anything.

if you u turn from scyther/swellow into alakazam from registeel or spiritomb or milotic...lol.

| Alakazam | Nature | Modest | 23.1 |
| Alakazam | Item | Life Orb | 25.2 |

dont try.

All Zam needs is Sub/FB/Signal Beam/Psychic. Encore is another option which is just as deadly, take your pic at what you want to run because they both accomplish pretty much the same thing.

I didn't say I was going to U-turn to Zam when Spiritomb comes out? lol I didn't even have the word Spiritomb in that post so I don't see what you're trying to prove.

Jolly CB Scyther's U-turn to standard Milo = 32.3% - 38.4%
Modest LO Psychic from Zam to same Milo = 45.3% - 53.7%

If Milo was just a bit weakened before it can be taken out. I'm not gonna bring out Zam against a full health Milotic, but one U-turn that brings Milotic into the 40 range and Zam can finish it off.

Modest LO Focus Blast vs. standard Registeel = 61% - 72%

One U-turn + SR + the Focus Blast = Registeel isn't gonna be countering Scyther or Swellow anymore.

And I don't get what you're trying to prove with the statistics, considering if something is used 1/4th of the time it's still popular.

Oh lookie:
| Mismagius | Move | Calm Mind | 17.6 |

Just because Mismagius uses Calm Mind less than Nasty Plot it doesn't discount it as a threat, especially since people were telling me
"Thund, just cause Skuntank/Specially bulky drapion are used rarely
doesn't mean you can't discount them as checks."

 

[SJCrew]

Whenever I see Zam it usually comes in on the revenge, fails to KO something with Psychic and dies in one hit. I'm not sure who you're getting free subs on, but they don't sound very competent.

And tying with Scyther or Mismagius is very dangerous...I actually swept through half a guy's team including Alakazam because of that tie. There's really no way we can lump this guy in the same category as something like Raikou, who even then wasn't overtly broken.

 

[Banedon]

Jolly CB Scyther's U-turn to standard Milo = 32.3% - 38.4%
Modest LO Psychic from Zam to same Milo = 45.3% - 53.7%

If Milo was just a bit weakened before it can be taken out. I'm not gonna bring out Zam against a full health Milotic, but one U-turn that brings Milotic into the 40 range and Zam can finish it off.

Modest LO Focus Blast vs. standard Registeel = 61% - 72%

One U-turn + SR + the Focus Blast = Registeel isn't gonna be countering Scyther or Swellow anymore.

I think the point is that if you're U-turning Scyther / Swellow to Alakazam, Milotic or Registeel gets a hit in - or, in Milotic's case, it might Recover.

0 SpA Milotic Surf vs. 4/0 Alakazam: 46.8% - 55.2%, a 2HKO, although Alakazam can KO first since it's faster.
0 Attack Registeel Iron Head vs. 4/0 Alakazam: 50.4% - 59.9%, also a 2HKO although again Alakazam is faster.

So either way Alakazam takes big damage switching in. For Milotic it might Recover on the switch, which puts it out of 2HKO range from LO Psychic. For Registeel, if the U-turn'ing Pokemon is Scyther it's also possible that Registeel would Thunder Wave, which Alakazam obviously doesn't want to switch into.

I think this just goes to show how much difficulty Alakazam has to switch in ... if Azumarill can only switch in once to scare Alakazam away, so too can Scyther / Swellow only U-turn once to get Alakazam in vs. Milotic and Registeel.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

I think the point is that if you're U-turning Scyther / Swellow to Alakazam, Milotic or Registeel gets a hit in - or, in Milotic's case, it might Recover.

0 SpA Milotic Surf vs. 4/0 Alakazam: 46.8% - 55.2%, a 2HKO, although Alakazam can KO first since it's faster.
0 Attack Registeel Iron Head vs. 4/0 Alakazam: 50.4% - 59.9%, also a 2HKO although again Alakazam is faster.

So either way Alakazam takes big damage switching in. For Milotic it might Recover on the switch, which puts it out of 2HKO range from LO Psychic. For Registeel, if the U-turn'ing Pokemon is Scyther it's also possible that Registeel would Thunder Wave, which Alakazam obviously doesn't want to switch into.

I think this just goes to show how much difficulty Alakazam has to switch in ... if Azumarill can only switch in once to scare Alakazam away, so too can Scyther / Swellow only U-turn once to get Alakazam in vs. Milotic and Registeel.

No no, THEY would be switching into Scyther / Swellow who would be U-turning out to Kazam. U-turning on an already out Milo/ Registeel to Kazam is dumb, and you might as well be switching normally.

 

[Thund91]

No no, THEY would be switching into Scyther / Swellow who would be U-turning out to Kazam. U-turning on an already out Milo/ Registeel to Kazam is dumb, and you might as well be switching normally.

This.

It was common sense to assume this really.

 

[Bluewind]

Whenever I see Zam on the ladder it usually comes in on the revenge, fails to KO something with Psychic and dies in one hit. I'm not sure who you're getting free subs on, but they don't sound very competent.

And with that edit done I come to remind everyone that what bad players do with their mons couldn't interest this whole matter in the slightest. If you go take a look at people who actually know how to play with Zam you'll see that:

a) Bringing Zam into something it surely won't beat is stupid, unless you are a lure. Coincidence is, we could substitute Zam for other 492 names and that would still be right, because that's how the game works, we get 6 mons and try to beat other 6.
b) Yeah the ladder players don't tend to be very good, but it isn't the only way Zam is getting a sub. I can easily go to Milotic and then double switch to Zam expecing your Venusaur, I can bring it in on something it actually threatens (yes kids, stop revenge killing 100% HP Drapions with your Alakazams) and, from there, make him think whether giving me a free sub or risking the sacrifice is the best option. In these situations, I bet 95 out of 100 people would just straight switch out, and the other 5 that would stay in are either very ballsy or stupid.

On another note, just as much as having an easy time with a certain suspect against an unprepared opponent is not an argument for ban; never having a hard time against it doesn't automatically qualify it as UU as well. I might not believe Alakazam is BL in the slightest, but so far every person that does not have problems against Alakazam runs a Spiritomb. That alone doesn't make a good argument. On the other hand, (almost) no one has mentioned how weak Alakazam is to priority, which is very important as, unlike Porygon-Z, many mons like Arcanine and Azumarill can just stay in and beat it, which means you aren't limited to using Technitop and its super effective moves to beat it, but pretty much any mon with access to strong priority. That isn't to mention the fact Alakazam has a STAB that is nullified by the most common Pursuit users, thus giving them free switches, and that its defenses are so low that even if it stays in it'll be OHKO'd.

 

[Banedon]

This.

It was common sense to assume this really.

Lol, and I was wondering why Thund suddenly seemed to have taken leave of his senses or was simply playing really really recklessly.

Still the point stands that Alakazam doesn't have it easy switching in - in this case, it's from a U-turn as the opponent switches, a scenario that always buys the U-turning side the momentum. Double switching is dangerous as well, since you could "double switch" to Alakazam only to find that your opponent attacked, and lose Alakazam ...

I don't think Alakazam is BL; it's simply too hard to get in safely. If nobody has mentioned it, Scarfers typically outspeed Alakazam and can take it out, too.

 

[Stallion]

Weavile and Scarf Sceptile can outspeed and ohko Garchomp and Mence and 2hko latias let's unban them all! Look, I've never really had Zam problems but seriously, revenge killing with scarfers is NOT a sound argument for something not being broken. I thought that was already common knowledge >.<

 

[SJCrew]

That really wasn't worth a tangent. Of course I'm not talking about a guy using a Beautifly lead, I'm talking about just the average player missing a KO by like 5~10%. It happens all the time because Alakazam has a flashy 135 base Sp. Att, when in reality it has a hard time OHKOing even stuff like Muk. It can even miss a KO on bulky sweepers like Scyther or Moltres.

The problem is that if it misses a KO on ANYTHING, it's most likely going to die.

 

[shrang]

Here's a comment X-Act posted in the "Portrait of an Uber" thread which could be something to think about:

A Pokemon's power is the ratio of the amount of damage it deals on average by the amount of damage it is dealt in common battling conditions.

So, if Kazam is actually dealing way more damage to the opposing team than it itself is taking, (Which means if it kills something at 100% and is immediately trapped and revenge killed), it would have done dealt between 100% and 200% of its health (Let's just assume percentages for now, and not actually HP stats). I'm not going to say what percentage is acceptable and what is not, but it should be something people are thinking about.

 

[Banedon]

Weavile and Scarf Sceptile can outspeed and ohko Garchomp and Mence and 2hko latias let's unban them all! Look, I've never really had Zam problems but seriously, revenge killing with scarfers is NOT a sound argument for something not being broken. I thought that was already common knowledge >.<

No, but I mean some Scarfers should be able to switch into Alakazam, outspeed and KO, same philosophy as switching Azumarill in and forcing Alakazam out with Aqua Jet.

For example, Scarf Mesprit can switch into Alakazam's Psychic, taking 34.2% - 40.5%, outspeeding and threatening to KO with U-turn.

 

[Smurf.]

And I'm retarded enough to keep my Alakazam in...

 

[Envoy.of.Water]

Ummm... Hi. So, I have a question. If Venusaur and Sceptile ever left the UU tier (for whatever reason. Maybe Venu got banned and Sceptile got promoted to OU, both of which are within the realm of possibility), what would happen? Would Milotic centralize the metagame? Would she then become broken? Or would something step up to replace Venu/Tile and counter (or check) it? If so, what could come in and stop her?

Most of the UU Grass types can't handle special attacks. Ice Beams in particular. Tangrowth, Torterra and Leafeon all die to Milotic's Ice Beams. Would Meganium perhaps see a rise in usage? She does have the same special defensive stats as Venusaur after all. She could come in and either set up screens/Aromatherapy/Gk, Energy Ball, Leaf Storm/set up a Swords Dance, etc.

Sure, she misses out on key aspects that make Venusaur such a force in UU (Poison typing, STAB Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder) but wouldn't she be the closest thing to a Milotic counter if both Venu and Sceptile left?

 

[Head Smash]

Here's a comment X-Act posted in the "Portrait of an Uber" thread which could be something to think about:



So, if Kazam is actually dealing way more damage to the opposing team than it itself is taking, (Which means if it kills something at 100% and is immediately trapped and revenge killed), it would have done dealt between 100% and 200% of its health (Let's just assume percentages for now, and not actually HP stats). I'm not going to say what percentage is acceptable and what is not, but it should be something people are thinking about.

This doesn't account for Roost. If Salamence deals 600% damage or something but recovers 600% over the course of the battle, it has no power?

 

[Rolf]

Ummm... Hi. So, I have a question. If Venusaur and Sceptile ever left the UU tier (for whatever reason. Maybe Venu got banned and Sceptile got promoted to OU, both of which are within the realm of possibility), what would happen? Would Milotic centralize the metagame? Would she then become broken? Or would something step up to replace Venu/Tile and counter (or check) it? If so, what could come in and stop her?

Most of the UU Grass types can't handle special attacks. Ice Beams in particular. Tangrowth, Torterra and Leafeon all die to Milotic's Ice Beams. Would Meganium perhaps see a rise in usage? She does have the same special defensive stats as Venusaur after all. She could come in and either set up screens/Aromatherapy/Gk, Energy Ball, Leaf Storm/set up a Swords Dance, etc.

Sure, she misses out on key aspects that make Venusaur such a force in UU (Poison typing, STAB Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder) but wouldn't she be the closest thing to a Milotic counter if both Venu and Sceptile left?

I guess this would be a post where I'd like to direct you to a post of mine last round: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71161&page=54

I don't want to quote it since it's really too long for that, but that's my take on the whole Milotic issue. Hopefully it'll answer any questions you have.

@super effective: Good thing we're not talking about Salamence then.

 

[Hamme Van]

And I'm retarded enough to keep my Alakazam in...

I agree with Smurf on this one. If said person switches in a Mespirit to your kazam(and you don't know if it is scarfed or not), something is up. Zam outspeeds by a lot (normally) and has moves that will kill it the next turn. Here are some calcs:

Timid LO Zam vs. 0 Spe. Def. Mespirit (95% of all Mespirit ran no Spe. Def. evs in May)
Psychic: 30 - 35%

Shadow Ball: 72 - 84%

Signal Beam: 67 - 79%

With rocks up that one dead Mespirit, even with all min damage rolls.
So with this knowledge in mind, why would someone switch in a mon that will easily be killed the next turn unless they have something up sleeve? With bad players aside, and Mespirit's lack or priority, it must be scarfed and therefore no "good" player would keep zam in on that for fear of losing a threatening sweeper early game.

I'm not saying that Scarfed stuff is bad and it does not un-break pokemon like Garchomp and Salamence, its just that with the right amount of prediction and knowledge of the metagame your opponent could switch in something to absorb the U-Turn and continue.

 

[MetaGross66]

Your calcs are very misleading...

Timid Alakazam Psychic
vs. Timid Mesprit : 25.8% - 30.5%

Timid Alakazam Signal Beam
vs. Timid Mesprit : 57.7% - 68.1%

I run 252 HP on my Mesprit and anyone that doesn't is trading in a lot for bulk for tying with Venusaur and co. It just isn't worth it. Besides, the one in the analysis runs 252 HP as well. Counting Leftovers (more and more are starting to run Lum Berry in the lead spot, though) it has a very slim to no chance of 2KOing even after Rocks.

its just that with the right amount of prediction and knowledge of the metagame your opponent could switch in something to absorb the U-Turn and continue.

That's what loses you momentum when your using a supposedly offensive mon that is meant to increase your momentum or at the very least keep it stable.

 

[Thund91]

Your calcs are very misleading...

Timid Alakazam Psychic
vs. Timid Mesprit : 25.8% - 30.5%

Timid Alakazam Signal Beam
vs. Timid Mesprit : 57.7% - 68.1%

I run 252 HP on my Mesprit and anyone that doesn't is trading in a lot for bulk for tying with Venusaur and co. It just isn't worth it. Besides, the one in the analysis runs 252 HP as well. Counting Leftovers (more and more are starting to run Lum Berry in the lead spot, though) it has a very slim to no chance of 2KOing even after Rocks.



That's what loses you momentum when your using a supposedly offensive mon that is meant to increase your momentum or at the very least keep it stable.

Those calcs were probably for offensive scarf variants....

0 speed scarf Mesprit is still outsped by zam.

 

[FlareBlitz]

If they were for offensive scarf variants alakazam doesn't get a shot at a second signal beam, and has no shot at a KO after rocks even with Shadow Ball (which Alakazam shouldn't run in the first place). Meanwhile you get to take a U-Turn and your offensive pokemon, which is suppose to net you and keep momentum, just cost you an assload of it.

 

[uragg]

@Flare: the calcs show that Zam has the clean 2HKO on any Scarf Mesprit switching in, so assuming the Zam user is a skilled player he'll realize that the only reason his opponent would switch it in is because he can outspeed and KO.

but yeah scaring out Zam is often enough to stop any sweeping oppurtunites it may have. Zam may 2HKO a crapload of stuff, but getting behind a Sub isn't that easy. A skilled player most likely won't just Psychic straight away on a Venusaur (using the SubLO set), he's going to obviously Sub to scout the switch. Likewise, the Venusaur user can just break the Sub since there's no reason for Zam to use Psychic if it's supposed to be scaring Venu out. Zam only has so much health, and Sub, hazards, and LO add up real quick. so yeah Zam isn't that easy to set up the 2HKOs because Sub can be predicted too. I mean Spiritomb basically costs Zam a cool 50% before it even attacks with SR + Sub + SR so even if you manage to get rid of Tomb, Zam is still sitting at 50% the next time you bring him in.

 

[Hamme Van]

Your calcs are very misleading...

Timid Alakazam Psychic
vs. Timid Mesprit : 25.8% - 30.5%

Timid Alakazam Signal Beam
vs. Timid Mesprit : 57.7% - 68.1%

I run 252 HP on my Mesprit and anyone that doesn't is trading in a lot for bulk for tying with Venusaur and co. It just isn't worth it. Besides, the one in the analysis runs 252 HP as well. Counting Leftovers (more and more are starting to run Lum Berry in the lead spot, though) it has a very slim to no chance of 2KOing even after Rocks.

Thats great, but i'm going off of stats of May and the Scarf evs just to show that Mespirit COULD be killed the turn after the switch, but unless zam is scarfed as well it would be forced out like uragg said.