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Middle Cup Discussion Thread

I don't think Chansey will be that much of a problem. I mean, many people were worried that it would be broken in UU at first.

It would be a bit like RBY though, with Chansey and Rhydon on every team. :D

Also, I think Haunter would be more popular than Kadabra. I know it's slower with lower Speciak Attack than Kadabra, but that's the same with Gengar and Alakazam, and Gengar has been more used than Alakazam for years and years now.

Also, Magneton would be very dominant. It's ridiculously powerful for a middle-staged Pokemon.
 
Seadra sucks, simply, due to unimpressive speed, lack of swift swim, poor special attack in comparison with the rest of the game, AAAND lack of dragon stab, so it's an extremely inferior Kingdra. not worth running.

as for Pupitar, frail as shit, no sandstorm, has literally zero switch in chances. I don't see it doing well unless you come in on choice-locked normal attack, and most of those are still gouing to 3HKO.
 
Magneton is powerful, and I think every team has at least one of the following: Porygon-2, Chansey, Rhydon. Note that these three are all taken out by SD monferno so yeah. No need for complaining about Chansey's brokeness.
 
Yeah, Monferno shatters the metagame and stall teams simply fail to deal with it but it's a bit of a liability against more offensive teams because it's frail and not all that fast.
 
I have to say, I might actually give this a try. No hail and sand mean a lot of forgotten "easy to ruin" sets can shine, and a lot of sets can function like lone RD sweeping Kingdra without the threat of something like TTar ruining the fun. No Dark-types is also very very interesting. I'd imagine Taunt teams to be extremely effective, and Dusclops will be pretty much forced to run Ice Punch or Thunderpunch to combat things like Golbat and poliwhirl. I'd definitely give this a try.
 
Yup. its outsped by pretty much anything scarfed, and doesnt do well against some of the ghosties... *cough* Haunter *cough*
 
Blue_Tornado said:
I have to say, I might actually give this a try. No hail and sand mean a lot of forgotten "easy to ruin" sets can shine, and a lot of sets can function like lone RD sweeping Kingdra without the threat of something like TTar ruining the fun. No Dark-types is also very very interesting. I'd imagine Taunt teams to be extremely effective, and Dusclops will be pretty much forced to run Ice Punch or Thunderpunch to combat things like Golbat and poliwhirl. I'd definitely give this a try.
Click to expand...

As said before, Nuzleaf be Dark type :D This is also a very interesting tier, though Dukclops seems like it'd be unbelievable hard to deal with. Trick Room/WoW/Pain Split/Night Shade set could troll anything without Taunt given Shade will almost always 3HKO, sometimes 2HKO with Burn damage. Gotta love a meta where Ivysaur is possible though xD
 
The problem with Golbat is that Rhydon sets up all over you and if you stay in to Taunt you risk getting pasted by Stone Edge.
 
I've gotten quite interested in this and have checked every single Pokemon in the original list (in the OP, of course), and this is the result (Note: Pokemon I saw as utterly useless such as the four cacoons are edited out of the list. I think the four cacoons are the only ones missing, however);
- Ivysaur
60/62/63/80/80/60
- Charmeleon
58/64/58/80/65/80
- Wartortle
59/63/80/65/80/58
- Pidgeotto
63/60/55/50/50/71
- Pikachu
35/55/30/50/40/90
- Nidorina
70/62/67/55/55/56
- Nidorino
61/72/57/55/55/65
- Clefairy
70/45/48/60/65/35
- Jigglypuff
115/45/20/45/25/20
- Golbat
75/80/70/65/75/90
- Gloom
60/65/70/85/75/40
- Poliwhirl
65/65/65/50/50/90
- Kadabra
40/35/30/120/70/105
- Machoke
80/100/70/50/60/45
- Weepinbell
65/90/50/85/45/55
- Graveler
55/95/115/45/45/35
- Magneton
50/60/95/120/70/70
- Haunter
45/50/45/115/55/95
- Rhydon
105/130/120/45/45/40
- Chansey
250/5/5/35/105/50
- Seadra
55/65/95/95/45/85
- Electabuzz
65/83/57/95/85/105
- Magmar
65/95/57/100/85/93
- Porygon2
85/80/90/105/95/60
- Dragonair
61/84/65/70/70/70
- Bayleef
60/62/80/63/80/60
- Quilava
58/64/58/80/65/80
- Croconaw
65/80/80/59/63/58
- Togetic
55/40/85/80/105/40
- Flaaffy
70/55/55/80/60/45
- Marill
70/20/50/20/50/40
- Skiploom
55/45/50/45/65/80
- Piloswine
100/100/80/60/60/50
- Pupitar
70/84/70/65/70/51
- Grovyle
50/65/45/85/65/95
- Combusken
60/85/60/85/60/55
- Marshtomp
70/85/70/60/70/50
- Lombre
60/50/50/60/70/50
- Nuzleaf
70/70/40/60/40/60
- Vigoroth
80/80/80/55/55/90
- Loudred
84/71/43/71/43/48
- Lairon
60/90/140/50/50/40
- Roselia
50/60/45/100/80/65
- Vibrava
50/70/50/50/50/70
- Dusclops
40/70/130/60/130/25
- Sealeo
90/60/70/75/70/45
- Shelgon
65/95/100/60/50/50
- Metang
60/75/100/55/80/50
- Grotle
75/89/85/55/65/36
- Monferno
64/78/52/78/52/81
- Prinplup
64/66/68/81/76/50
- Staravia
55/75/50/40/40/80
- Luxio
60/85/49/60/49/60
- Gabite
68/90/65/50/55/82
Using these, I have compiled lists of "best of 10/11" Pokemon from every stat, slacking off from compiling a BST list of course. In case of a tie, I've tried organizing placement through "who's better" on first glance. I usually went up to 11 instead of 10 in case of ties when I couldn't decide which Pokemon should be omitted. And... here it is;
1)
- Chansey
250/5/5/35/105/50
2)
- Jigglypuff
115/45/20/45/25/20
3)
- Rhydon
105/130/120/45/45/40
4)
- Piloswine
100/100/80/60/60/50
5)
- Sealeo
90/60/70/75/70/45
6)
- Porygon2
85/80/90/105/95/60
7)
- Loudred
84/71/43/71/43/48
8)
- Machoke
80/100/70/50/60/45
9)
- Vigoroth
80/80/80/55/55/90
10)
- Golbat
75/80/70/65/75/90
11)
- Grotle
75/89/85/55/65/36
1)
- Rhydon
105/130/120/45/45/40
2)
- Piloswine
100/100/80/60/60/50
3)
- Machoke
80/100/70/50/60/45
4)
- Magmar
65/95/57/100/85/93
5)
- Shelgon
65/95/100/60/50/50
6)
- Graveler
55/95/115/45/45/35
7)
- Gabite
68/90/65/50/55/82
8)
- Lairon
60/90/140/50/50/40
9)
- Weepinbell
65/90/50/85/45/55
10)
- Grotle
75/89/85/55/65/36
1)
- Lairon
60/90/140/50/50/40
2)
- Dusclops
40/70/130/60/130/25
3)
- Rhydon
105/130/120/45/45/40
4)
- Graveler
55/95/115/45/45/35
5)
- Shelgon
65/95/100/60/50/50
6)
- Metang
60/75/100/55/80/50
7)
- Seadra
55/65/95/95/45/85
8)
- Magneton
50/60/95/120/70/70
9)
- Porygon2
85/80/90/105/95/60
10)
- Grotle
75/89/85/55/65/36
11)
- Togetic
55/40/85/80/105/40
1)
- Kadabra
40/35/30/120/70/105
2)
- Magneton
50/60/95/120/70/70
3)
- Haunter
45/50/45/115/55/95
4)
- Porygon2
85/80/90/105/95/60
5)
- Magmar
65/95/57/100/85/93
6)
- Roselia
50/60/45/100/80/65
7)
- Electabuzz
65/83/57/95/85/105
8)
- Seadra
55/65/95/95/45/85
9)
- Grovyle
50/65/45/85/65/95
10)
- Weepinbell
65/90/50/85/45/55
11)
- Combusken
60/85/60/85/60/55
1)
- Dusclops
40/70/130/60/130/25
2)
- Chansey
250/5/5/35/105/50
3)
- Togetic
55/40/85/80/105/40
4)
- Porygon2
85/80/90/105/95/60
5)
- Magmar
65/95/57/100/85/93
6)
- Electabuzz
65/83/57/95/85/105
7)
- Metang
60/75/100/55/80/50
8)
- Bayleef
60/62/80/63/80/60
9)
- Wartortle
59/63/80/65/80/58
10)
- Ivysaur
60/62/63/80/80/60
11)
- Roselia
50/60/45/100/80/65
1)
- Kadabra
40/35/30/120/70/105
2)
- Electabuzz
65/83/57/95/85/105
3)
- Haunter
45/50/45/115/55/95
4)
- Grovyle
50/65/45/85/65/95
5)
- Magmar
65/95/57/100/85/93
6)
- Pikachu
35/55/30/50/40/90
7)
- Vigoroth
80/80/80/55/55/90
8)
- Golbat
75/80/70/65/75/90
9)
- Poliwhirl
65/65/65/50/50/90
10)
- Seadra
55/65/95/95/45/85
Enjoy~
(This may be added to the OP if needed/it has proven to be useful enough)
 
I have a feeling Substitute + 3 Attacks Pikachu would rape this tier. Yup Yup.

EDIT: I obviously mean the mixed one with Focus Punch, so it can rape Chansey.
 
Actually, the pika is rare in the battles ive played...

and also, come on guys, the irc is deserted most of the time. if you forgot, its #middlecup. Now get over there!
 
If anyone needs a test of sorts, I'll be more than happy to apply. There is a LOT to test, and I'm saying this only after less than a day of research.
 
I'd just like to say that agility metang (AgiliTang?) is very powerful in this meta.

Metang @ Life Orb
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
~ Earthquake
~ Agility
~ Ice Punch
~ Meteor Mash


Also, #middlecup needs some more love!
 
IMO, rhydon would be very broken in this metagame. That is theorymon as I have not tried it yet, but it has the third highest hp and defense, the highest attack by 30 points, and can fix up it's bad speed with a single RP. It wouldn't be hard to get in or set up and there aren't really many viable bulky waters in the tier to take a hit a threaten back. Good thing there is no perma-sand in middle cup or it would be GG for sure.
 
Well, the Meta isn't ruined cause Rhydon is around. If this becomes a played tier, and it's broken, it will obviously be banned.
 
Opinions on Scarf Combusken...? It would outspeed the entire nonscarfed metagame, and have access to mixed attacks. Not sure it has enough sheer power to be effective, though.
 
its hard countered by scarf pory2 and scarfbite. also, its fire attacks get walled by wartortle/croconaw/marshtomp, while its brick break/vacuum wave fails to ohko rhydon... a somewhat bad thing when you consider that SD monferno outspeeds nonRP Rhydon and ohkoes with CC
 
Specs Combusken, on the other hand, is pretty good. Focus Blast 2HKOs all Chansey and P2. Rhydon is OHKOd. Rhydon has to run at least 216 HP to survive Vacuum Wave with SR, so it checks RP Rhydon as well.
 
doomvendingmachine said:
IMO, rhydon would be very broken in this metagame. That is theorymon as I have not tried it yet, but it has the third highest hp and defense, the highest attack by 30 points, and can fix up it's bad speed with a single RP. It wouldn't be hard to get in or set up and there aren't really many viable bulky waters in the tier to take a hit a threaten back. Good thing there is no perma-sand in middle cup or it would be GG for sure.
Click to expand...

I dont think Rhydons broken. Physically defensive Marshtomp can handle Rhydon if it switches into RP; for CB versions you can switch around the stone edges and earthquakes.
 
Combusken under TR is actually decent. Sky Uppercut is good enough to threaten P2 and KO Chansey, while Fire Blast and HP Grass are two good attacks as well. Vacuum Wave is also very useful, but I guess you could try Substitue instead.

Machoke is pretty underwhelming however..
 
CobraJSF said:
its hard countered by scarf pory2 and scarfbite. also, its fire attacks get walled by wartortle/croconaw/marshtomp, while its brick break/vacuum wave fails to ohko rhydon... a somewhat bad thing when you consider that SD monferno outspeeds nonRP Rhydon and ohkoes with CC
Click to expand...

Scarfed P2 seems a bit counterproductive. Isn't it supposed to be a tank? Other than that, yeah, that makes sense.
 
band combusken seems cool too under trickroom, as it with ghosts gone, sky uppercut hurts everything for fuckloads.

Also, machoke is only viable in the leadslot, but there its godly at the same time, beats almost every other lead with dpunch, payback, bulletpunch protect

After more battles also, magneton seems like the most broken thing ive seen so far, tearing trough a huge part of the tier (and blowing up on the pink blob if needed).

Going to try myself at stall now to see how that works
 
No one seems to have mentioned Vigoroth. Vital spirit+A huge support and offensive movepool mean it could get lots of oppertunities to bulk-up or encore an enemy pokemon to let a team mate set up.
 
Donny Mae. said:
No one seems to have mentioned Vigoroth. Vital spirit+A huge support and offensive movepool mean it could get lots of oppertunities to bulk-up or encore an enemy pokemon to let a team mate set up.
Click to expand...
While Bulk Up, Sub, Encore, Slack Off, Roar, Taunt and Yawn are all awesome support options, Normal is just such a terrible STAB. If not for that, Vigoroth would be pretty cool.
 
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