NP: UU - Zero to Hero

[SJCrew]

Your "logic-based points" are not reflective of the experience anyone actually playing in the metagame has had. There's no logic in facing assumptions against experience.

This would be true were I actually making a concrete supposition based on a metagame I haven't played. But in actuality...I'm not. Just theory-based conjecture.

A) Priority wrecks him.
B) He has no priority himself.
C) Easy to revenge kill non-scarfed sets with powerful threats
D) Takes full damage from every entry hazard.
E) Scarf set doesn't outpace UU's most common scarfer, Rotom.

Logic-based points about Heracross's weaknesses.

Doesn't having CC and Megahorn mean you're not cockblocked by Spiritomb or really anything at all?

Logic-based rebuttal.

Doesn't having a type that doesn't negate your Dark resist mean you're not vulnerable to Sucker Punch, easily the most common priority attack in the tier?

Logic-based rebuttal.

Come to think of it, I don't see every Pokemon in UU with Espeed, just Sucker Punch...then there's Hitmontop, whose Mach Punch is resisted by Hera as well...Azumarill's Aqua Jet and Scyther's Quick Attack, both of which aren't dealing huge damage because omg 60 bp :(.

Logic-based rebuttal.

Again, nothing I'm saying is a concrete judgement because again, I'm acknowledging that haven't played, I'm just a little skeptical about all this because of my experiences using him in OU. I believe Heysup and I already went over this.

I swear, you guys are a bunch of jumpy motherfuckers...

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Maybe if you're skeptical and you haven't used in him UU yet maybe you should, you know, go use him in UU since he's on the ladder?

Until then I'd rather not see you theorymon in this topic anymore. There's no point now that he's fully playable.

 

[LonelyNess]

Bulk Up Heracross is one of the biggest monsters I've ever encountered / used. It has the slow but sure to power up advantage against stall (as well as killing those stupid Haze Milotic 1-on-1) while being bulky enough after a Bulk Up to take most hits an offensive team can dish out it (save for Flying-type attacks) and murder things with a +1 Megahorn. I think this is the best "all purpose" heracross that can significantly break through both offense and defense teams with ease. Just pair it with something that takes out Fire-types (I use Dugtrio), and a reliable Flying-type counter (since attacking things 4X resistant to Megahorn is ass) and go to town as your opponent fails to stop it from setting up forever and sweeping. Really, use it, it's freaking amazing.

(for the record I'm using Bulk Up / Megahorn / Rest / Sleep Talk with HP and SpD and enough speed to outrun stuff like 252 Adamant Torterra)

It's hilarious seeing Weezing do 30% max with Flamethrower and slowly watching as you Bulk Up to +6 and easily 2HKO with Megahorn. So priceless.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Yeah, Bulk Up Heracross is amazing. I prefer it to, say, SD sets because the SD sets are nearly useless against offense. Stall literally cannot deal with a Bulk Up Heracross and other teams struggle more - particularly balance, which has to use its offensive sweepers like Arcanine and Moltres to check a Heracross that gets lots of setup chances and will eventually see them worn down over the course of the game.

 

[Heysup]

Bulk Up Heracross is one of the biggest monsters I've ever encountered / used. It has the slow but sure to power up advantage against stall (as well as killing those stupid Haze Milotic 1-on-1) while being bulky enough after a Bulk Up to take most hits an offensive team can dish out it (save for Flying-type attacks) and murder things with a +1 Megahorn. I think this is the best "all purpose" heracross that can significantly break through both offense and defense teams with ease. Just pair it with something that takes out Fire-types (I use Dugtrio), and a reliable Flying-type counter (since attacking things 4X resistant to Megahorn is ass) and go to town as your opponent fails to stop it from setting up forever and sweeping. Really, use it, it's freaking amazing.

(for the record I'm using Bulk Up / Megahorn / Rest / Sleep Talk with HP and SpD and enough speed to outrun stuff like 252 Adamant Torterra)

It's hilarious seeing Weezing do 30% max with Flamethrower and slowly watching as you Bulk Up to +6 and easily 2HKO with Megahorn. So priceless.

I know this is going to make one of us look dumb, but, why do you need to outspeed 252 Adamant Torterra when it can't do anything to you?

It would make more sense to me to invest a little more Speed to get Jolly Aggron, or better yet, min Speed Uxie. Or just not invest in Speed at all.

 

[Ghost.]

I'd use 28 EVs to outspeed LO Milo and thats its really. Slow mixed Ken as a bonus.

Uxie does nothing to you 28.6% - 34.6% setupbaittt.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

I use Lefties cause I'm cool like that.

Also I've had people rage at me for using it, but Scarf Scyther is surprisingly effective. Pretty much like Band except Speed > Power. I love U-turning those Sceptile and Zam that think they can outspeed me, and owning Swellow. It's fun, trollworthy, and viable all in one. ^^

WIDE LENS, because I dont trust Fail Edge and the equally unreliable Megahorn at all.
Scarf Scyther.... idk what to think. I suppose I doesn't exactly need power to U-turn and kill things with AA, but I'd miss the power (then again, I use CB Scyther with Adamant often).

 

[shrang]

I'm absolutely loving the Scarf set at the moment. Yes, it's a bit more susceptible to stall (Who would be absolutely scared shitless with all the other Heracross variants running around) but does brilliantly against your bog-standard balance and offense teams. It can easily revenge kill most threats, like Alakazam, Swellow, Gorebyss in rain, etc. Most speed boosters still end up slower than ScarfCross, so you can still destroy them before they sweep you (Apart from probably Feraligatr). After you softened up your opponent's team, ScarfCross cleans up like a vacuum cleaner. It's actually pretty similar how ScarfChomp played. Good speed, great power. I wouldn't say ScarfChomp is a bad set either, heh.

 

[Arcticblast]

Sub+SD has its problems, but is overall a good set.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Besides that, I think SubSD, Scarf, and the standard swords dance sets are also great sets. Heracross makes an epic scarfer in UU, just like PG-Z, and I wouldn't be surprised if that ended up being the most popular set (ala scarfchomp)

That was me theorymoning at the start of this thread. I still hold to what I said then...in this aspect anyway.

Right now I'd say Heracross's most "useful" set is Scarf, because that fits on nearly any offensive team. Note that Adamant Scarf Cross beats +2 Jolly Rhyperior and Jolly Scarf Cross outruns +2 Adamant Torterra and everything lower. Its sheer power means that, unlike something like Rotom, you really don't need to hit things super-effectively to kill them, meaning you can run Sleep Talk or Toxic or even Facade or Double-Edge in your free slots. Speaking of Facade...if you switch ScarfCross into Toxic/Will-o-Wisp your opponent is going to have a hell of a time...

That said, SubSD has been its most damaging set, in my opinion. The important thing when using Heracross is to keep rocks on the field at all times, because if you do...offensive Moltres simply cannot beat Heracross without also dying (you can CC as it Air Slashes your sub and then it either roosts and dies or attacks and dies) and birds in general cannot switch into you more than once.

Well, I guess I'll just post this. The Heracross-oriented team I am using currently is: Life Orb Uxie lead (because inviting Heracross in and killing it with Psychic is fun, also Omastar no longer survives energy ball yeah), SubSD Heracross, Bulky Mismagius (foresight this!), LO Milotic, LO Hitmonlee, and Bulky DD Feraligatr.

This is a very preliminary team, and I do have some minor issues (mostly with non-choice Heracross actually), but I have been having great success with it. I'm not going to explain the mechanism behind it or synergy or anything since this isn't an RMT and it should be obvious to anyone who has a grasp of this metagame anyway, but this is just an example of the style of play that I feel works very well in this metagame, specifically one that revolves heavily around luring, overloading, and sacrificing instead of type synergy and bulky offense (which was the style of offense that worked the best in the previous metagames).

Now...I will freely admit that Heracross isn't the Doombringer like many (including myself) predicted, but I feel that it is still highly threatening in the right hands, possibly to the point of being imbalanced...but we will have to see. I'm not going to draw overarching conclusions from the 20 or so games I've played.

 

[Banedon]

This would be true were I actually making a concrete supposition based on a metagame I haven't played. But in actuality...I'm not. Just theory-based conjecture.

Theory is nice and all but in the end it's nothing compared to practice - one hour on the ladder trying out a new team is far more beneficial than any amount of theory you put into it. Like, that's why QC and similar require you to have experience with the set.

Right now I'm thinking of an Orb + 4 attacks set backed by slow U-turns to get it in, don't know how well it'll work.

@shrang above - isn't Swellow going to Quick Attack Scarf Heracross? And Rhyperior survives Scarf Close Combat, while there are other speed boosters like Agility Blaziken would outspeed Heracross easily. ScarfChomp also has Outrage and powerful neutral coverage, which Heracross doesn't have. Not saying Scarf Heracross is a bad set, but I can't see it having the same effect on UU as ScarfChomp on the OU metagame.

And agree with Flare's last line. I'm kinda surprised Heracross hasn't been utterly destructive, but that definitely seems to be the case.

 

[googlyeyesultra]

So far heracross seems to fit in pretty well, despite everyone's best efforts to abuse him. At the moment I'm running jolly LO 252atk/252spe with rest/sleep talk/close combat/megahorn. It makes a great counter to grass types in general, gets both guts + LO boost, and most walls really can't kill him anytime quickly, making him still solid against stall despite the meh coverage.

Typing wise he should synergize really well with most rock types, but there aren't really many viable rock types in uu.

 

[sharkz]

Yep. Gligar owns man :) I tried him and I found that just running Max HP and Def with impish usually does better, just cos I would rather take a hit well and KO HeraBOSS in return with AA rather than risk the speed tie and taking a fairly hard hit.

Sub 3 attacks I find usually will guarentee a kill, especially aganist offense. Even with no boosts Heracross still hits like mad.
I find that a lot of times I wish I had priority on Hera, especially here in UU, the land of priority. Sub+3 attacks really places a fair bit of pressure on your team to be able to cover faster threats that can KO him.

 

[Meru]

Lol people are now using scarf moltres on the ladder to counter Hera. I mean really? Let's be practical...

 

[Dan Dan]

Counter Blastoise is a boss right now, caught LOADS of Heracross trying their luck with Guts attacks against full health Blastoise.. fools.

 

[Heysup]

Lol people are now using scarf moltres on the ladder to counter Hera. I mean really? Let's be practical...

Since when is Scarf Moltres not a legitimate practical Pokemon...it used to be at least. Modest ScarTres absolutely wrecks.

 

[Meru]

Well I'm not gonna get into another situational argument about hazards with you but I just prefer a scarfer that isn't crippled by them.

 

[XenoIncognito]

Counter Blastoise is a boss right now, caught LOADS of Heracross trying their luck with Guts attacks against full health Blastoise.. fools.

I admit I got caught by counter blastoise. It's a little gimmicky to me, though. It opens up a set up opportunity with SD or Sub.

 

[Heysup]

I'm not sure I would ever risk Countering on Heracross because if it SD's you're in deep shit.

 

[shrang]

@shrang above - isn't Swellow going to Quick Attack Scarf Heracross? And Rhyperior survives Scarf Close Combat, while there are other speed boosters like Agility Blaziken would outspeed Heracross easily. ScarfChomp also has Outrage and powerful neutral coverage, which Heracross doesn't have. Not saying Scarf Heracross is a bad set, but I can't see it having the same effect on UU as ScarfChomp on the OU metagame.

Yes, like Swellow is that powerful that Quick Attack will OHKO Heracross. Good one. Even though ScarfCross isn't OHKO Rhyperior, he's not sweeping for much longer anyway. Anyway, while ScarfChomp has great neutral coverage, Heracross makes up for sheer relative power (Base 125 in UU is over the top, while 130 in OU is pretty much just "very good").

 

[Dan Dan]

Yeah it's risky, but it works well with those Gligar that come in your own Hera, Agility on the switch, and then pass to their own Hera who usually just goes for broke with 4 attacks@orb.

 

[shrang]

Are people forgetting that Gligar's speed is the same as Heracross'?? Meaning that you can potentially die from a boosted Facade before you get to do anything.

 

[dbcb]

Lol people are now using scarf moltres on the ladder to counter Hera. I mean really? Let's be practical...

That used to be the moltres set a few metagames ago

 

[M BLADE]

I've been playing around with Hera a bit, and i must say ScarfCross is the best late game cleaner i have yet used.

And that's because i forgot to put a move on it...

It pairs well with Rhyperior IMO.

Well, i paired it with Rampardos (because of speed, so Milotic can kiss my ass. And Weezing trying to Fire Blast/Flamethrower Hera will meet Rampardos and it's sub. And because Rampy is teh shit, kind of like PK Gaming's Raichu: MUST...USE...IT) and it did well, so it must be much better with Rhyperior.

 

[Lee]

I'm enjoying the Heracross metagame more than the pre-Heracross one. He's powerful and unpredictable but so are Rhyperior and Alakazam and just like them, Heracross has a few flaws that prevent him from destroying the metagame. UU so far imo, but it's early days.

Choice or Sub+3 attacks sets are the way to go imo. Any attempt at a sweep is always gonna be met by a revenge kill unless you're up against heavy stall (which is pretty rare in UU nowadays anyway). He's too slow and not as bulky as people like to think (especially when you're packing an Orb and spamming CC). He's just not a great sweeper so don't try to make him into one unless you're willing to give him the support he needs.