R.I.P. Leads and Scouting

Kitten Bukkake said:
So you prefer a metagame with crap like suicide leads running around, or do you prefer a metagame where pokemon have to be functional in more than just a single role? I'd say flexibility increases your options by definition.
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The point is options in team construction, not perceived options in battle. I'm not a fan of suicide leads, but if people can use them effectively, I'm certainly not going to tell them not to.
 
When it comes to change, it's always the 2 sides of the coin. One group initially likes it and says its the best thing ever, while the other hates it and states how it ruins everything estabilished.

Both sides are wrong untill proven right. Since the subjest at hand has yet to be tested, there is no right or wrong as of yet. Even after extensive play there STILL might be no right or wrong, but only prefferences.
 
Pit[y]Lord said:
When it comes to change, it's always the 2 sides of the coin. One group initially likes it and says its the best thing ever, while the other hates it and states how it ruins everything estabilished.

Both sides are wrong untill proven right. Since the subjest at hand has yet to be tested, there is no right or wrong as of yet. Even after extensive play there STILL might be no right or wrong, but only prefferences.
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Which is why it should be optional. The two options could therefore be tested like anything else to confirm which one should be used as the standard.
 
NDenizen said:
AND considering all you seem to ever see is Azelf and Scizor, seeing them in every line-up before you actually battle sort of...takes all the fun away, "here we go again" people would say. I personally don't want to see the opponents team, as much as I don't want them to see mine.
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If there is already no variation on the teams as you claim I don't see why you would make such a fuss about knowing before the match versus 60 seconds later in the game- the surprise still comes, it's just less delayed. If anything, the ONLY reason I see for people to bitch is the overprediction that might come from this. Like if you wanted to fire off a water attack but you know there is a quagsire in the mix because you saw their team you might not do it, opting for like HP grass or something...meanwhile their fire pokemon can get a free shot and blah blah it changes the dynamic of predicting but ONLY in the first part of the match. I mean when you're at the point where you both would know each others team anyways, it makes no difference.

All this truthfully does is remove the need for scouting and streamline matches so you can begin your strategy asap.

Also, it's not as if guys like mence are one trick ponies. Lets also not forget that even if you KNOW a scizor is around, it's still gonna be effective and you're still gonna need to counter it.
 
Hipmonlee said:
All prediction is based around what your opponent knows. It just astounds me that this change has been made and that someone who knows the first thing about battling would defend this. I am genuinely furious. Gamefreak have ruined this game, far more than Wobbuffet could ever hoped to have.
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There are plenty of games, like fighting games, that are double-blind decision oriented, but have otherwise perfect information in that you know what all of your opponent's possible "moves" are in any given instance. Except not even BW has that, since you don't know what your opponent's moves are. On top of that, the amount of diversity in BW is incredibly high; much higher than something like a street fighter, where there are maybe 15-20 viable characters at best.

I'd say more, but don't have time at the moment. The point is, you're jumping the gun and are for some reason assuming that Pokemon is special, and somehow much more hidden-information-oriented than other games, despite the fact that we haven't really tested a version of the game with less hidden information in the past.
 
General Spoon said:
By providing accurate data on what's going on in each fucking metagame? Don't fucking act like pre-battle reveal wouldn't affect the metagame. You'd have to be a complete fucking moron to think it wouldn't.
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Oh, you're referring to usage statistics and the like. That makes sense, then.
 
Agree with General Spoon about the servs. However IMO it's good that the games get only the one option, since it gives the system 2/3rd of the actual data compared to the old one. Since the new system needs to be tested more that is a plus in my book.

I also wanted to state that with the whole dream world abilities thing, we have still a whole lot of guessing and predictions to do, even if we know the teams.
 
Blame Game said:
There are plenty of games, like fighting games, that are double-blind decision oriented, but have otherwise perfect information in that you know what all of your opponent's possible "moves" are in any given instance. Except not even BW has that, since you don't know what your opponent's moves are. On top of that, the amount of diversity in BW is incredibly high; much higher than something like a street fighter, where there are maybe 15-20 viable characters at best.

I'd say more, but don't have time at the moment. The point is, you're jumping the gun and are for some reason assuming that Pokemon is special, and somehow much more hidden-information-oriented than other games, despite the fact that we haven't really tested a version of the game with less hidden information in the past.
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And I could play those games if I wanted to. I play pokemon because I like it.

My point isnt that there is no game left, my point is that being blind permeates every decision made in a pokemon match. In the past when people have asked me why I like pokemon, this is one of the key reasons I have given to show why I prefer Pokemon to fighting games. The game that remains isnt the game I have been calling pokemon for the past 10 years.. Perhaps my wording was a little strong..

If you havent played no hidden info pokemon games then I guess you dont use the ladder much. This is basically the whole reason I dont like ladder.. Well, ok it's not, there are other reasons I dont like ladder as well, but this is an important part.

Have a nice day.
 
one thing that you can't argue is that this makes scouting completely useless.

alot of teams just became completely worthless because of this change. ie ones that try to set up for a lucario/other set-up user's late game sweep. a good player will be able to look at the team comp and figure out thats the basic strat of the team, therefore he will just keep his gliscor/whatever other counter hidden away all game long.

magnezone also becomes fairly worthless now. Any player with scizor that sees magnezone on the opponents team will do nothing but spam u-turn or keep scizor hidden until magnezone is dead.
 
Wait, so they make blowing away entry hazards much easier, and now they're taking out the entire 'element of surprise' idea?

What is this
 
Meh. It's not like it wasn't done in the show. Before Ash went against Gary for I think the second time, he was up all night studying every pokemon Gary obtained, and planned a team against his Team. Kinda destroys the element of surprise, but at least you both can choose wisely, and it might make things less repetitive.
 
Rechargable said:
Wait, so they make blowing away entry hazards much easier, and now they're taking out the entire 'element of surprise' idea?

What is this
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On what basis are you stating that blowing away hazards is easier now? If you say "aiming mark" I thing you need to be updated.

And regarding the surprise element. Dont you think that since the mons can have from 2 to 3 abilities to chose from, there is still a lot of surprise to watch out for?
 
jchen said:
alot of teams just became completely worthless because of this change. ie ones that try to set up for a lucario/other set-up user's late game sweep. a good player will be able to look at the team comp and figure out thats the basic strat of the team, therefore he will just keep his gliscor/whatever other counter hidden away all game long.
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So the philosophy of how you play changes. Adapt. People had to change their team building philosophy when going from gen 3 to gen 4. I'm sure you can too.

Just because you lose this "hidden Pokemon" strategy doesn't mean the game will be devoid of skill. In fact...

magnezone also becomes fairly worthless now. Any player with scizor that sees magnezone on the opponents team will do nothing but spam u-turn or keep scizor hidden until magnezone is dead.
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If your opponent becomes predictable enough to use the same move over and over, punish him for it? The increased mindgames from the beginning of the match should be able to fill whatever void is created by knowing which 6 Pokemon your opponent is using.
 
dubious said:
I believe skill/prediction/whatever will still be in this game, just in a way that is more similar to previously mentioned games like PBR. I recognize both variations of battling but I would prefer it to be only an OPTION.

The thing that I like least about this change is the loss of the factor of surprise. In PBR one could immediately spot if the opponent was running a weather, trick room, etc. team as well as common weaknesses amongst the team members. It's almost too easy.

A major part of Pokemon is the risk involved in it. Finding your opponents weakness while battling makes it both more exciting and creates a natural tension/suspense that makes battling more entertaining. I'm sure some of you have had at least one match where your strategy had to change in an instant because of an unexpected Pokemon showing up. This injects new life into the battle and makes it more unique and interesting. If that was taken away, battling just wouldn't be the same. It would be all pre-game strategy of with little thinking involved as the game progressed.

Personally, not my cup of tea.
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There's still surprise, you still don't know what types of Pokemon moves they are running.

I also doubt U-Turn is out either. Sure it doesn't scout anymore, but you still rack up damage and go to a good counter, keeping your Pokemon safe.

You know what this is? This is to cripple Stealth Rock user leads. No Stealth Rock TM, and now running that Azelf lead will be pretty hard to do.
 
and figuring out what would have the best synergy with them.
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And forgoing said synergy to catch people off guard = risky gimmick set. Tada!

It's no different from knowing everything, sets and all, as soon as you've seen 3 pogeys in the current metagame.
 
Clockwork Seal said:
And forgoing said synergy to catch people off guard = risky gimmick set. Tada!

It's no different from knowing everything, sets and all, as soon as you've seen 3 pogeys in the current metagame.
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So your strategy for surprising opponents in this metagame is... to forgo synergy. That's an awful strategy, if it can even be called that.

In battle, your opponent can control what they show you and when, and they can take advantage of your lack of knowledge before they show you things. If they haven't seen your entire team, they can't know everything.
 
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