Bulkier DD sets run better then the no defense EV Ono's in several cases, but all in all, with or without Defensive EV's it can still take a hit. Be it might be severely crippled, but it will be able to serve it's purpose when used properly. You wouldn't want to go for a Ono sweep in general though until you get his hard counters out of the way. As such, playing him as anything but a mid to late game sweeper will garauntee that it wont get its job done correctly unless your opponent is a royal screw up.
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Haxorus
- Thread starter R.B.G.
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Bulkier DD sets run better then the no defense EV Ono's in several cases, but all in all, with or without Defensive EV's it can still take a hit. Be it might be severely crippled, but it will be able to serve it's purpose when used properly. You wouldn't want to go for a Ono sweep in general though until you get his hard counters out of the way. As such, playing him as anything but a mid to late game sweeper will garauntee that it wont get its job done correctly unless your opponent is a royal screw up.
Although that takes away the main selling point he has over the other dragons.
It's impossible to counter every Pokemon in the game, which is what some of you guys seem to be trying to do with Ono. There will be some solid counters to him, and there's not a lot we can do about that, just like how Magnezone is a perfect counter to Skarmory.
It's impossible to counter every Pokemon in the game, which is what some of you guys seem to be trying to do with Ono. There will be some solid counters to him, and there's not a lot we can do about that, just like how Magnezone is a perfect counter to Skarmory.
Am I the only one who thinks comparing him to the other Dragons as opposed to see what he can offer to support the other Dragons is kinda pointless?
Double Dragons is a strategy that's been used for..like...ever. Why can't Onono get in on that action? More speed and Attack than DNite or Kingdra and they were often paired with Mence for mass damage -- weaken or kill the Steels with one of them and sweep with the other, the rest of the team was to wear down the opponent, get a set up opening, and prevent you from being swept by opposing checks. Onono and his monstrous attack stat allows him to nearly OHKO SpDef Skarm after an SD with Outrage factoring SR:
864 Atk vs 287 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 252 - 297 (75.45% - 88.92%)
There's not a Poke in the game that is willing to get hit by one of Onono's moves bar Physically defensive Skarm or Zong and both of them are Taunt bait for Onono. After weakening them or killing them, Onono can go down safely and Mence or Chomp is that much more dangerous to the opposing team.
Here's 252 HP/252 Def Bold Cress for what it's worth, vs SD Onono:
864 Atk vs 372 Def & 444 HP (120 Base Power): 390 - 459 (87.84% - 103.38%) OHKO after Rocks.
Double Dragons is a strategy that's been used for..like...ever. Why can't Onono get in on that action? More speed and Attack than DNite or Kingdra and they were often paired with Mence for mass damage -- weaken or kill the Steels with one of them and sweep with the other, the rest of the team was to wear down the opponent, get a set up opening, and prevent you from being swept by opposing checks. Onono and his monstrous attack stat allows him to nearly OHKO SpDef Skarm after an SD with Outrage factoring SR:
864 Atk vs 287 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 252 - 297 (75.45% - 88.92%)
There's not a Poke in the game that is willing to get hit by one of Onono's moves bar Physically defensive Skarm or Zong and both of them are Taunt bait for Onono. After weakening them or killing them, Onono can go down safely and Mence or Chomp is that much more dangerous to the opposing team.
Here's 252 HP/252 Def Bold Cress for what it's worth, vs SD Onono:
864 Atk vs 372 Def & 444 HP (120 Base Power): 390 - 459 (87.84% - 103.38%) OHKO after Rocks.
It's not pointless to compare him to other dragons since he is a sweeper and the only reason you'd ever really want to double up on the same type of sweeper is for a team-focused offensive core gimmick.
Which gets us to "double dragon"...tbh, it doesn't work with everything, not quite as well as you think. I tried Double Dragon with Mence and Nite some time ago, and not only was it doubling on SR weak, but bulky Water weak, Ice weak...it was more hassle than payoff, really. Your counters don't magically disappear with two Pokemon of the same type throwing out attacks, but it is a little easier when those two types happen to be Dragon.
Btw, I think there's something wrong with your calcs. If you give RP Groudon 228 Att EVs, he has the same as max Att Ono. Give him a +2 and he's only dealing 68.6% - 80.8% to Skarm. It's still huge, but without the possibility to KO after Rocks. He definitely won't be able to Roost stall it, though.
Which gets us to "double dragon"...tbh, it doesn't work with everything, not quite as well as you think. I tried Double Dragon with Mence and Nite some time ago, and not only was it doubling on SR weak, but bulky Water weak, Ice weak...it was more hassle than payoff, really. Your counters don't magically disappear with two Pokemon of the same type throwing out attacks, but it is a little easier when those two types happen to be Dragon.
Btw, I think there's something wrong with your calcs. If you give RP Groudon 228 Att EVs, he has the same as max Att Ono. Give him a +2 and he's only dealing 68.6% - 80.8% to Skarm. It's still huge, but without the possibility to KO after Rocks. He definitely won't be able to Roost stall it, though.
@SJCrew: That calc was against fully physically defensive Cresselia, not Skarmory.
It's sad that Ononokusu was denied the elemental fangs (it has visible fangs, so why not give it those moves, if possible?). At least it has potential to sweep the opponent with some Dragon Dances provided that Skarmory and/or Bronzong are out of the picture. I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but Heatran may make a good partner for Ononokusu (Heatran can take the Ice and Dragon attacks aimed at Ononokusu; Ononokusu can take the Water attacks aimed at Heatran).
Your defense stat is wrong here. Skarm won't have less than 300 Def unless you have a terrible Def IV or something. On specially defensive Skarm (Impish with no Def EV):
864 Atk vs 347 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 207 - 245 (61.98% - 73.35%)
Bronzong is killed off by any Ono because of mold breaker. And Skarmory can be handled with the SD sets.
Specially Defensive Skarm is listed as Carfeul being the primary nature, although yes the defense stat is wrong. I looked at the "min" and added 31 IVs forgetting about the nature reduction. Regardless taking out that kind of chunk from Skarm with a resisted Physical move is damn impressive, especially when it can shut down Whirlwind with Taunt and basically nothing else in the game can swap into it:
864 Atk vs 316 Def & 334 HP (120 Base Power): 229 - 270 (68.56% - 80.84%) Careful SpDef Skarm
Also @SJCrew: The thing about Onono is that it's literally the perfect Double Dragon Poke. It breaks bulky waters and Steel types easily, and when well support Double dragon works amazingly well. Dragonite + Mence isn't the best example, Kingdra and Mence were used together as well as were Mence and Latias despite being on opposite sides of the spectrum.
The point that I was trying to make is that people are exclusively comparing him to other Dragons which doesn't make sense to me. Not only because you can't just say "DD is outclassed by Mence" or "SD is outclassed by Chomp" because he has both, just like how in Gen 4 terms, DDMence wasn't broken alone, and MixMence wasn't broken alone, but that Mence could be either made him extremely destructive. Onono can viably be DD, SD, Banded, Scarfed, and can hold Haban, Yache, or Life Orb in his set up sets. He's versatile so directly comparing DD to DD and SD to SD really gets you nowhere fast. In addition to that, comparing Dragon to Dragon forgets taking into consideration the metagame surrounding the Dragons and while this may or may not change were Onono stand ni relation to them, simply saying "Mence/Chomp/Flygon outclasses it" seems dumb.
And unlike most other powerful dragons in the meta, giving him bulky EVs actually makes so much sense given his lack of 4x weakness to ice and passable defenses. Dragon Dance on a bulky Ono is the gravy train.
Missed a post.
Your points aren't even valid, they're just reckless Ono bashing. It's like you're raging against the machine without there actually being a machine.
Uh, to KO? LO max Att Ono does 60.8% - 71.8% to Swampert. If he's at low enough HP, I'll bring in Ono to ram right through him.
Tink also has LO, so I can easily tell it's offensive and not blindly switch my sweeper in to get killed. Also, suppose for the sake of the argument that was the case anyway and you didn't have Skarmory? 87.2% - 102.8%, Celebi's dead. Even if you tried to switch in Scizor, Bullet Punch only does 60.4% - 71% and Outrage 2HKOs.
Ok, now I'm 100% sure that you're just recklessly biased against Ono because there's no way you can type that with a straight face and totally believe it's true. Skarmory's BB musters a pathetic 40.3% - 47.4% on a sweeper. Every little point counts, and 76/90 Def is definitely better than the average 70/70 sweeper.
That's a good thing, because that's part of what makes those Pokemon potent sweepers. If Kingdra didn't have its typing and good defenses, it wouldn't be OU. If Ono had Gengar defenses, it'd probably be BL at best.
lol, I don't recall anyone saying it was going to switch in on Skarmory. But Vappy's defense is pretty weaksauce and I can get in on all the Wishes and Protects I want to smack it with a good 67.2% - 79.2%. And btw, Boiling Water isn't instant burn, it's 30%. Bulky Water types are going to be harder to switch into in general, not just on Ono's end, but they're still playing the odds to make sure a sweeper doesn't just plow right through them.
Your points aren't even valid, they're just reckless Ono bashing. It's like you're raging against the machine without there actually being a machine.
SJCrew said:
You're not really reccomending sending Adamant Ono into Vaporeon (a Pokemon who almost always carries Protect) and just going straight into Outrage, are you? That's an awful play...you're either gonna get confused or revenge killed. You're playing down the obvious disadvantages of Outrage to support your argument.
In BW if your Outrage is Protected on you snap out of it I'm pretty sure. But still quite a risky strategy.
If you come in on Protect and it's at low enough HP I'd rather just Outrage straight up. If it's using Wish, I'm gonna set up, since it's obviously going to Protect. In the worst case scenario, they're going to hit me with Boiling Water or the odd Ice Beam after the Wish. Either way, I'm still at +1 or +2 and will KO the next turn without fail (101.1% min with DD).
Also, if there's one thing the Salamence era taught me, it's that being too conservative with your Outrage misses out on a lot of potential kills. I've racked up an innumerable body count of Swamperts just hitting Outrage as they switch in, and it 2HKOs every time. Once you know your opponent is dependent on their bulky Water type, Scizor, Flygon or whatever to keep Dragons from ripping their team apart you can use that against them and KO it with the Dragon. After the damage is done, you can clean up with Infernape.
It does require a little prediction and scouting to employ this strategy effectively, but hey, it worked for me.
I feel this thing is going ot be uber lol. Well finally its about time I get something that can rape skarmory.
For the record, THIS IS NOT HYPE, people. Hype is a fad or a movement perpetuated by a large group of people. If you see one or two statements that praise something being good and you disagree, address those and alone leave that hype-killing trigger alone.
This is to all those Stop Having Fun Guys who like to post in every single thread talking about "overhype" that doesn't exist. That shit is annoying, please read through the thread before you go on your tirade against popularity.
Ultimately, you need just 80 spe EV's so you outspeed most of your counters after 2 DD's (which is not hard to get). You can opt for more speed EV's, but where is it going to get you with him? Other then not outspeeding a few problems, several of them can be covered through other methods. Also, you can easily place into bulk, even if you max atk, as long as you follow the 80+ speed EV's. In fact, maxing attack is almost not needed since you already come out with 363 atk stat with just adamant nature, and 100 EV's from there gets you to 390.
Also, in regards to double dragon, that specific strategy has indeed been around for a good amount of time, so having Ono paired with another dragon is nothing new per say. SD sets usually partner the best alongside other dragons, opting for the wallbreaking job instead of sweeping (which requires alot more team synergy centered around him).
This guy is too frail to be Uber. And Mold Breaker doesn't go through Flying- immunity.
its going to get raped by erufuun unless its choices
So will any other setup sweeper. However, Ono can run Choice sets effectively, which might make the opponent hesitate before switching in their Erufuun.
Lol, Erufuun? Unless your running max Def, alongside max HP Erufuun will die quicker then it can setup. No def EV's means it's OHKO'ed by outrage, and that's also with max HP EV's running bold nature. Max Def, and HP EV's takes 78.7-92.9% from it, and with SR, that's a K.O. Dragon Claw does 52.8-62.3 with Max Def, and HP with bold, and does 68.5-80.9% with no defense EV's.
Mind you, all that damage was with a +1 Dragon Dance, adamant nature, and ONLY 100 atk EV's. Any Ono with a Dragon Dance under it's belt means a dead Eru if you switch it in. No point in going for a second one when it's going to try and setup anyway, especially when you can kill it in one go. Erufuun is in no way going to rape it unless the Ono user is dumb enough to send it in after it. And even if they did, with enough attack EV's, it wont even need the boost to kill it.
Mind you, all that damage was with a +1 Dragon Dance, adamant nature, and ONLY 100 atk EV's. Any Ono with a Dragon Dance under it's belt means a dead Eru if you switch it in. No point in going for a second one when it's going to try and setup anyway, especially when you can kill it in one go. Erufuun is in no way going to rape it unless the Ono user is dumb enough to send it in after it. And even if they did, with enough attack EV's, it wont even need the boost to kill it.