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Garchomp

^Sazandora does all of those moves better bar Earth Power, with higher SpA and Levitate to help with Spikes/TSpikes.

Also, does anyone know if Rough Skin's effect takes place even when the bearer faints? For example, if Roohbushin were to pick off a weakened ScarfChomp with Mach Punch, would it still take the recoil?

I find that while Sand Veil has its situational (ie 20% chance) uses, Rough Skin is guaranteed to have a great residual effect whenever a contact move is involved. Chipping of health as a pokemon U-Turns out, inflicting additional damage to LO users, and getting in that last bit of damage even when being priority revenged certainly has its advantages. Garchomp's answer to Flygon's Levitate, I guess.
 
I am pretty sure the damage of Rough Skin would take place even if chomp faints.
IMO the problem is that Chomp takes quite a lot damage from most contact moves and he lacks recovery to use it to its fullest extent (not even rest talk :/). It is an option and a less haxy one than Sand Veil of course and while Chomp is pretty bulky i wouldn't use it on more offensive sets as 12.5% damage to contact move users is inferior to not getting 20% of the time.

On the other side if you use chomp without sand support Rough Skin is propably better especially as he doesn't have to miss out any important moves.
 
I'd have to say that on any offensive set, Sand Veil is the better option. True, Rough Skin could damage something, but offensive Garchomp would much rather not be hit that 20% of the time. On a defensive set you could go for Rough Skin, but Sand Veil is still alluring. Perhaps if you weren't running a single Sand Stream Pokemon you could use Rough Skin, but the fact that you'll probably be encountering SS Teams means that Sand Veil still wins for me thanks to it's ability to inspire ragequits and hax me to victory everygame.

British Garchomp is the wave of the future. Yes.
 
Sand Veil is nice but I think most people prefer the idea of an ability that works with all contact moves all of the time, than an ability that works 20% of the time and only when the opponent brings Sandstorm in.
 
I agree with you when you say Sand Veil is better for offensive Chomp, but you have to keep in mind that Sand Veil relies on luck, while Rough Skin gives you support on most physical moves user, and with physical dominating the metagame, it might be useful. And Chomp is bulky enough to take some hits.
 
Steeli said:
And Chomp is bulky enough to take some hits.
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Then again if he's taking more than one hit, the probability of getting a free turn with sand veil jumps from 20% to 36% or even nearly 50% (and that's assuming the attack has perfect accuracy).
 
BurningMan said:
Zapdos mostly and it eases prediction against fire types that may switch out to a Flying type (and imo the fire type attacks are often too weak to OHKO Fire Fang doesn't even OHKO standart 252/252 HP/Def Nattorei).

Dragon Rush is an option for early game as you said but you miss the option for a late game sweep with Dragon Claw to pick off weakend stuff if you don't want to take the risk of Outrages confusion ending your sweep and it allows you to revenge Dragons without locking yourself into Outrage and 75 acc isn't reliable against other Dragons that are likely to have Super effetive options that will OHKO you.
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The objective when using ScarfChomp (especially with rush) is to weaken your enemies to the point where in the late game, he has no steel types (or pokemon in general) left who can stand up to Outrage.

SR is an interesting point, but there really aren't that many viable fire or flying pokemon who don't resist rock. SR is so dominant that most fire types and steel types have to be rock-neutral to be effective (Heatran, Blaziken/infernape, Skarmory, Gliscor, etc.). Zapdos and Gyarados are not terribly common, and Shanderaa is probably the only common Fire pokemon weak to Rock. In Shanderaa's case, I rather have Aquatail to hit Balloon Doryuuzu.
 
Steeli said:
I agree with you when you say Sand Veil is better for offensive Chomp, but you have to keep in mind that Sand Veil relies on luck, while Rough Skin gives you support on most physical moves user, and with physical dominating the metagame, it might be useful. And Chomp is bulky enough to take some hits.
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while it is true the reliance on luck is rather sketchy, some of the previous poster are seriously underestimating the 20%. To be honest, I don't really see much use for rough skin except for (maybe) leadChomp when choosing between hax veil and rough skin (I don't know much about defensive garchomp so I don't really want to talk about them much but for the set I've posted in the previous page, I'd much rather use sand veil for survivability.
 
Sand Veil is completely superior in every single way, haxy or not. Rough Skin only punishes contact moves, whereas Sand Veil punishes everything. I'd rather have that 20% chance to evade stamie's ice beam, kill it, then proceed sweep their whole team rather than have 100% definite miniscule damage on weavile's ice punch, while my Garchomp dies. Ice Shard isn't a contact move either.
 
I just spent the last 20 minutes theorymoning an awesome Garchomp-Tank with Rough Skin . . .

. . . then I realized Stealth Rock and Rough Skin are illegal. Fail. >_____>

. . . I then theorymon'd a Sleep-Talk set with Dragon Tail until I realized that Sleep-Talk is illegal with Rough Skin. Fail >_____>

Even without Rough Skin though the following is quite interesting:

Garchomp
Impish
176 HP / 8 ATK / 176 DEF / 92 Sp.DEF / 56 SPEED
Resulting stats: 401 HP / 298 ATK / 297 DEF / 176 sp.ATK / 229 DEF / 254 SPEED
@Leftovers
Sand Veil
-Stealth Rock
-Roar / Dragon Tail
-Dragon Claw
-Earthquake

EV'd for the same defensive stats as Mixpert, with enough speed to outrun neutral Heatran and almost 298 ATK.

Garchomp
Impish / Jolly
@Leftovers / Rugged Helmet
Sand Veil
-Dragon Tail
-Sleep Talk
-Rest
-Swords Dance / Earthquake

You could make this set bulky like the above one, but I realized that a faster sleep-talk-dragon-tail might be more fun . . .
 
Crystic said:
Sand Veil is completely superior in every single way, haxy or not. Rough Skin only punishes contact moves, whereas Sand Veil punishes everything. I'd rather have that 20% chance to evade stamie's ice beam, kill it, then proceed sweep their whole team rather than have 100% definite miniscule damage on weavile's ice punch, while my Garchomp dies. Ice Shard isn't a contact move either.
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This. Chomp's support options are quite limited, and Rough Skin's benefit are marginal at best when compared to the potential benefit of Sand Veil; outside of maybe the occasional SR setup, Garchomp has no business doing anything that is not attacking or Swords Dancing/subbing anyway.

Choice sets are going to his bread and butter in Gen V, although the SD set is still very deadly. Many have vouched for the Scarfed set, and I've been using a CB set with great success on PO.
 
Villi said:
Then again if he's taking more than one hit, the probability of getting a free turn with sand veil jumps from 20% to 36% or even nearly 50% (and that's assuming the attack has perfect accuracy).
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Basic laws of probability will tell you that no matter how many turns have passed your chances of an evasion are still 20% assuming that all of your opponent's attacks have perfect accuracy. An evasion isn't an innevitability. It could easily never activate in an entire 6-6 match. As such, I say if you aren't running a SS team and you want a good scarf user, there's no reason not to run Rough Skin. I wouldn't try to creat a set to capitalize on it. Rather, just appreciate the extra damage you get when the attacks are physical.
 
Well, I've been laddering extensively with an SS team (Or rather, I did, and have since moved on to Rain).

Starmie used Ice Beam. Ice Beam missed! Garchomp OHKOs with EQ and sweeps.
Gengar used HP Ice. Gengar missed! Garchomp OHKOs with Outrage and sweeps.

Even in Gen IV, Garchomp was effing annoying with Sand Veil. In Ubers, I was down to Garchomp vs 6 of my opponent's Pokemon. I Swords Danced, then Mewtwo missed and I swept. Britscor has also been one of my favorite Gen IV Pokemon, since that hax is just that good. My ScarfChomp, back in the day, also was rescued from Ice Shard many times by Sand Veil. It's never something to rely on, I just honestly cannot suggest Rough Skin and sacrifice that 20% chance to turn a loss into a win.
 
Tbh from what i find CB Chomp has some competetion this gen.Generally what Cb tries to do is rip through stuff and weaken teams and Onny Spamming Outrage is pretty much more effective at doing that from what i see.
But it does have some niches as a Cb'er such as Ground Typing and the 102 speed.But tbh id much rather use Onny as it's better at performing the main objective of a Cb'r.
 
Jaroda said:
Basic laws of probability will tell you that no matter how many turns have passed your chances of an evasion are still 20% assuming that all of your opponent's attacks have perfect accuracy. An evasion isn't an innevitability. It could easily never activate in an entire 6-6 match. As such, I say if you aren't running a SS team and you want a good scarf user, there's no reason not to run Rough Skin. I wouldn't try to creat a set to capitalize on it. Rather, just appreciate the extra damage you get when the attacks are physical.
Click to expand...

Except that Rough Skin isn't compatible with Outrage (or SR or Sleep Talk).

Whoops.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Jaroda
Basic laws of probability will tell you that no matter how many turns have passed your chances of an evasion are still 20% assuming that all of your opponent's attacks have perfect accuracy. An evasion isn't an innevitability. It could easily never activate in an entire 6-6 match. As such, I say if you aren't running a SS team and you want a good scarf user, there's no reason not to run Rough Skin. I wouldn't try to creat a set to capitalize on it. Rather, just appreciate the extra damage you get when the attacks are physical.
Click to expand...
Except that Rough Skin isn't compatible with Outrage (or SR or Sleep Talk).

Whoops.
Click to expand...

^This.
 
Chou Toshio said:
Except that Rough Skin isn't compatible with Outrage (or SR or Sleep Talk).

Whoops.
Click to expand...
Wait... Why is Rough Skin incompatible with Outrage? Unlike Mence, Garchomp actually gets Outrage as an Egg Move, so I don't see the problem (unless Serebii is wrong and it's not an egg move for Garchomp anymore or we got confirmation that all DW Gible will be male or something).
 
huh, ok nvm. Looks like it is compatible with Rough Skin. lol (though I still am sad about the loss of potential defensive sets with Rough Skin).
 
Chou Toshio said:
The objective when using ScarfChomp (especially with rush) is to weaken your enemies to the point where in the late game, he has no steel types (or pokemon in general) left who can stand up to Outrage.

SR is an interesting point, but there really aren't that many viable fire or flying pokemon who don't resist rock. SR is so dominant that most fire types and steel types have to be rock-neutral to be effective (Heatran, Blaziken/infernape, Skarmory, Gliscor, etc.). Zapdos and Gyarados are not terribly common, and Shanderaa is probably the only common Fire pokemon weak to Rock. In Shanderaa's case, I rather have Aquatail to hit Balloon Doryuuzu.
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Yeah but still if you use Rush over Claw you lose the ability to reliably revenge kill the other Dragons and one of ScarfChomps main selling points is that he is one of the best revenge killers for other Dragons.

As is said i use SE mainly for Zapdos and Gyara cause i had not many other ways to deal with them on my team.
 
Jaroda said:
Basic laws of probability will tell you that no matter how many turns have passed your chances of an evasion are still 20% assuming that all of your opponent's attacks have perfect accuracy. An evasion isn't an innevitability. It could easily never activate in an entire 6-6 match. As such, I say if you aren't running a SS team and you want a good scarf user, there's no reason not to run Rough Skin. I wouldn't try to creat a set to capitalize on it. Rather, just appreciate the extra damage you get when the attacks are physical.
Click to expand...

NO.
20% FOR EACH ATTACK.
his numbers are the % chance of dodging ONE of X hits.
Probablility of dodging 1 hit in 1 attack 20%

Probability of dodging 1 hit in 2 attacks, 20% per attack. 64% chance they hit both times, meaning 36% chance you dodge at least one of the two hits.

Probability of dodging 1 hit in 3 attacks. 20% per attack. 51.2% chance they hit all 3 times. almost 50% chance you will evade at least one of the three hits.
 
Garchomp is still as much of a troll as ever. I seem to have particular problems with the scarf set - I'm really considering going down the three dragons/three steels route again this gen.
 
Garchomp is still amazing in this generation, but not nearly as centralizing as last generation. This generation the average speed is quite high especially when you consider SS and rain sweepers who often can't be outsped by ScarfChomp. Also, Garchomp has to deal with more competition for a place in a team as we've got some new good sweepers and revenge killers.


Swords Dance
Garchomp @ Yache / Haban / LO / Leftovers / Balloon / Lum Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
~ Swords Dance
~ Outrage / Dragon Claw
~ Earthquake
~ Fire Fang / Substitute

Hands down. SD Garchomp is somehow meh this generation, but not necesserily bad. It's just easier to revenge kill (more priority + weather sweepers) and we have quite some really awesome new SDancers (Dory), also Balloon is quite often causing trouble for Garchomp.

The item choice is tough. All the above mentioned items have their uses and can give Chomp the advantage in the right situation. Sand Veil is waaay better on offensive sets than Rough Skin. Although it only gives Garchomp a 20% to ninja dodge an attack, but this one miss can decide the whole game, whereas Rough Skin is just some damage from to time that is often not necessary. It's not rewarding as Sand Veil.

Btw, Am I the only one sick about the Ono hype? At least I'd prefer Garchomp as a SD sweeper (and Scarf) all the time over Ono, not that sure about BandChomp.


ScarfChomp
Probably THE set for Garchomp in this generation. Yeah, I still hate the lack of U-Turn and therefore Mobility (compared to Flygon) and the fact that Garchomp fails to outspeed Dory in sand, but revenge killing other sweepers is just lovely and it can switch in so often and cleaning endgame with Garchomp is just <3

Still, on some gimmick teams of mine Garchomp is my favorite victim. Choice Garchomp often lock themself into EQ (if not help them to do so with TrickJirachi). Now switch into your favorite trapper holding a Balloon (CMShandera w/ three or ClawSharpenDuggy w/ two immunities) and get +6 stat boosts and probably also an easy win. A fun gimmick synergy.
 
This guy is still the best sweeping Dragon, no question.

I remember when the new Pokemon were revealed that Green Dragon with 140 attack was so hyped..That thing is useless/outclassed in every way by this beast.

What makes this guy perfect is his speed and STABs..Plus let's not forget Tyranitars' OU dominace providing it with free evasion..And you don't even have to use Tyranitar!This guy has won me many games just because of the sand and is the most dangerous Dragon right now.Taking into consideration the fact that Tyranitar is popular..
 
There never was any Ononokusu hype...everyone realized from the beginning that it was a glass cannon, nothing more. SDChomp fares much better against offensive teams, with its arguably better typing, awesome bulk, and excellent speed, as well as the ability to 2HKO Skarmory without locking itself into Outrage. Its STAB Earthquake is pretty awesome too. However, Ono's Outrage OHKOs many things that Chomp's doesn't, like Hippowdon. They have different niches; Chomp is better in most cases, though.
 
The problem with Chomp in Gen IV was that it didn't have any true and reliable counters, same goes for Mence after Platinum.
For both, there were no reliable counters added this Gen, am I right?
I think you know what that means.
 
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