That is, unless Octillery (Bibarel's weakness hurts too much) nets him SP DEF boosts. It will be hard for Lucario to break through eventually. Or, even worse, if Octillery starts outpacing Lucario and Surfs him for the KO.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
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That is, unless Octillery (Bibarel's weakness hurts too much) nets him SP DEF boosts. It will be hard for Lucario to break through eventually. Or, even worse, if Octillery starts outpacing Lucario and Surfs him for the KO.
It's not dumb at all. My Inconsistent Glalie was actually countered by one the other day, and the worst part of it was that I didn't have any Fire types to deal with the annoying little pig mushroom. This only further confirms my theory that Morobareru is one of the more competent defensive mons we've seen this gen.
...that is of course unless your attack misses. I've had Clear Smog miss on me multiple times. LOL
...that is of course unless your attack misses. I've had Clear Smog miss on me multiple times. LOL
Well the stuff I suggested (besides Perish Song) should be on every team regardless! You absolutely need a strong Grass/Electric move on at least one pokemon if you want to thrive in a metagame with so many amazing Water typed pokemon. A Phazer is a very worthwhile addition, either for entry hazard build up or just having a panic button just in case. I may have been lucky but I didn't have to change anything on my team to beat Octillery so I don't know how "centralizing" it really is. My guess is not very much since having something with Roar and Electric/Grass moves are very common anyways. Also note that while I suggested Perish Song, I have never had to use it since my other pokemon were able to defeat Octillery every time.
OK, some of these arguments are annoying me again so I'm going to address them.
Power creep:
It's real. Very real. I don't care for those useless calculations. The introduction of permanent rain/sun inducers and offensive sand abilities are more than enough evidence of this. You speak in extremes, but that's just completely pointless because it says nothing about how hard the bulk of the metagame's offensive capabilities. The buffs to defensive play like Nattorei and Evolution Stone have further necessitated the use of this power creep.
In Generation IV, Garchomp was Uber. Now, there's an even more powerful and much faster Pokémon around, and it's struggling to get into suspect discussions, and it apparently hasn't even been a suspect on PO's side ever. I realize that this is a flawed comparison, as Doryuuzu may very well be broken regardless, but seriously... Even if we do go to the extremes, Generation IV did not give you the easy capability to 2HKO a bulky Water with Fire Blast. You don't even seem to understand the damage formula very well... So please, enough with your delusional claims that this power creep is "fake".
Re: Inconsistent? Prepare for it!
...While it does hold some truth, it ignores the many people who have come here to post "counters" and yet STILL insist that Inconsistent is broken. Like Chou Toshio said, an element of the game is not fine just because there's some counter out there for it, and this seems to be a very prime example of that. It's easy to tell someone to find a spot for a counter. However, Pokémon is a team game. The Inconsistent user has 4-5 other Pokémon and probably has a way to get rid of Clefable or Toxic Spikes or Porygon2 or whatever. (I've used Porygon2 a lot, and it's not entirely hard to beat it once you get past the zomg-worthy numerical bulk.) This countering circle-jerk is in the Inconsistent user's favour because all you have to do to remove Toxic Spikes or weather is to switch a Pokémon in, and Unaware Clefable simply isn't that good and sorely misses Magic Guard.
And that's not even touching on having to prepare for the metagame in general, which has been a rather daunting experience already. I have mentioned before that the presence of our friendly neighbourhood pseudo-suspects may be amplifying Inconsistent's power, and again, maybe that is true. But in any case, I've come to a point where I can't properly test teams anymore. I have a team, and I know that it needs to be fixed somehow, but I just don't know what to do with it. I can't figure out how to deal with Darkrai or Shaymin-S or whatever when they're followed up by Octillery and the game becomes completely retarded. I look at my team right now, and it has a perfectly good three-Pokémon defensive core, an allegedly broken revenge killer, a backup wall (maybe replace this... idk), and a catch for the pseudo-suspects, and yet I'm looking at scrapping it completely as if a slobbering idiot made it. Something is wrong with this.
Power creep:
It's real. Very real. I don't care for those useless calculations. The introduction of permanent rain/sun inducers and offensive sand abilities are more than enough evidence of this. You speak in extremes, but that's just completely pointless because it says nothing about how hard the bulk of the metagame's offensive capabilities. The buffs to defensive play like Nattorei and Evolution Stone have further necessitated the use of this power creep.
In Generation IV, Garchomp was Uber. Now, there's an even more powerful and much faster Pokémon around, and it's struggling to get into suspect discussions, and it apparently hasn't even been a suspect on PO's side ever. I realize that this is a flawed comparison, as Doryuuzu may very well be broken regardless, but seriously... Even if we do go to the extremes, Generation IV did not give you the easy capability to 2HKO a bulky Water with Fire Blast. You don't even seem to understand the damage formula very well... So please, enough with your delusional claims that this power creep is "fake".
Re: Inconsistent? Prepare for it!
...While it does hold some truth, it ignores the many people who have come here to post "counters" and yet STILL insist that Inconsistent is broken. Like Chou Toshio said, an element of the game is not fine just because there's some counter out there for it, and this seems to be a very prime example of that. It's easy to tell someone to find a spot for a counter. However, Pokémon is a team game. The Inconsistent user has 4-5 other Pokémon and probably has a way to get rid of Clefable or Toxic Spikes or Porygon2 or whatever. (I've used Porygon2 a lot, and it's not entirely hard to beat it once you get past the zomg-worthy numerical bulk.) This countering circle-jerk is in the Inconsistent user's favour because all you have to do to remove Toxic Spikes or weather is to switch a Pokémon in, and Unaware Clefable simply isn't that good and sorely misses Magic Guard.
And that's not even touching on having to prepare for the metagame in general, which has been a rather daunting experience already. I have mentioned before that the presence of our friendly neighbourhood pseudo-suspects may be amplifying Inconsistent's power, and again, maybe that is true. But in any case, I've come to a point where I can't properly test teams anymore. I have a team, and I know that it needs to be fixed somehow, but I just don't know what to do with it. I can't figure out how to deal with Darkrai or Shaymin-S or whatever when they're followed up by Octillery and the game becomes completely retarded. I look at my team right now, and it has a perfectly good three-Pokémon defensive core, an allegedly broken revenge killer, a backup wall (maybe replace this... idk), and a catch for the pseudo-suspects, and yet I'm looking at scrapping it completely as if a slobbering idiot made it. Something is wrong with this.
finally i understand how to compare them thanks.
Now what im confused is why some pokemon isnt as effective as back in gen 4.
For example we all know Garchomp and Salamence, HOW they work and how they are broken in gen 4. We also know how Dragonite is outclassed in most by Garchomp and Salamence. But in gen 5, yes nite gains Multi Scale. But it should be noted that Garchomp and Salamence fit well in the meta. Chomp because of Sandstorm abundant, bulk, and noticable speed stats. Mence due to flying Typing and Initmidate yet Nite not only more popular but also arguably more effective and that has been proven so far. This especialy considering things like MH, Sandstorm etcetera that run rampant in gen 5 severely hinders dragonite's performance unlike those of mence and chomp.
This might show that bulkier pokemon is more favored than one doesnt ?
For example Roobushin, and some suspect such as Manaphy(solid 100) and Darkrai (at least 70 90 90 is decent)
Now what im confused is why some pokemon isnt as effective as back in gen 4.
For example we all know Garchomp and Salamence, HOW they work and how they are broken in gen 4. We also know how Dragonite is outclassed in most by Garchomp and Salamence. But in gen 5, yes nite gains Multi Scale. But it should be noted that Garchomp and Salamence fit well in the meta. Chomp because of Sandstorm abundant, bulk, and noticable speed stats. Mence due to flying Typing and Initmidate yet Nite not only more popular but also arguably more effective and that has been proven so far. This especialy considering things like MH, Sandstorm etcetera that run rampant in gen 5 severely hinders dragonite's performance unlike those of mence and chomp.
This might show that bulkier pokemon is more favored than one doesnt ?
For example Roobushin, and some suspect such as Manaphy(solid 100) and Darkrai (at least 70 90 90 is decent)
I think we've mostly established that Shaymin-S and Darkrai are broken. The tricky part is what to do with Inconsistent. The problem we're having is that it's not a matter of the Pokemon themselves utilzing the ability well enough to make them broken, but rather the ability itself pushes inarguably bad Pokemon over the edge through its merits and its merits alone. On top of that, it's not a matter of just banning Octillery, but then Smeargle, Glalie, and Bibarel as well.
In order to avoid doing that, I propose that we make an Inconsistent Clause instead. As Chou once said, it's about the same as Evasion and OHKO with regards to being anti-competitive, as well as a problem that needs to be remedied right away. We can have a topic in PR, put it to a vote, and take care of it the same way we did the others. The only question is when the officials will start to take notice and act.
In order to avoid doing that, I propose that we make an Inconsistent Clause instead. As Chou once said, it's about the same as Evasion and OHKO with regards to being anti-competitive, as well as a problem that needs to be remedied right away. We can have a topic in PR, put it to a vote, and take care of it the same way we did the others. The only question is when the officials will start to take notice and act.
I've played Inconsistent quite a bit... on the PO Server. It's not very different from the Smogon meta, and any time I ever won with any kind of inconsistent set it was because my opponent sat there and let me set up. You have to actually react quickly and either take the Pokemon out or pHaze it away. Prepared teams had no problem getting my Pokemon out.
And it is very luck based. For every time that I got evasion boosts right off the bat, I've had my accuracy go up twice in a row while my defenses or attacks dropped.
There are so many counters for the tactic and I can't believe people here are complaining about it.
Getting beat by an inconsistent Octillery is just like getting swept by any other setupper.
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Though I think those of who I late-game swept with a Remoraid probably hate me with a passion...
And it is very luck based. For every time that I got evasion boosts right off the bat, I've had my accuracy go up twice in a row while my defenses or attacks dropped.
There are so many counters for the tactic and I can't believe people here are complaining about it.
Getting beat by an inconsistent Octillery is just like getting swept by any other setupper.
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Though I think those of who I late-game swept with a Remoraid probably hate me with a passion...
Maybe I'm not seeing this right, but why can't we just say that Evasion Clause includes Inconsistent as an evasion boosting ability? I mean, it should, shouldn't it?
I disagree with this. The pokemon's ability is just as much a part of the pokemon as its stats/moves/etc. and these pokemon should be tiered on a case-by-case basis like all other pokemon. I think many people are having trouble coming to terms with the fact that these pokemon are truly no longer "inarguably bad" and that is what is causing some of this drama, not just the ability itself.
Note that I am not currently for or against a ban of any of the specific pokemon that have this ability (I've only experienced playing against them a few times), but I think a blanket ban on the ability itself is very "inconsistent" (pun intended!) with the way tiering has always, and is currently being done.
I wasn't aware that encore got "nerfed" this gen. Will someone explain to me how it's been changed this generation??
Also, it's becoming quite clear that gamefreak has been monitoring our activities very closely. Why else would there be such drastic changes made to moves/items/abilities used in the metagame WE created?? It's almost as if they're intentionally screwing with us!
Iirc, Encore lasted for 2-5 turns last gen, whereas it does always last for 3 turns now. Makes it easier to predict.
The Evasion Clause only bans moves that do nothing except raise the user's evasion, Double Team and Minimize. Inconsistent is an ability, not a move. Secondly, it does not only raise Evasion (like the move Accupressure).
I am all for testing Inconsistent for possibly being broken, but isn't it a little reckless to flat-out ban it on an "emergency" basis? After the smoke clears, we may find that it is not as unbeatable as many people think.
For that matter, I feel compelled to play devil's advocate and say that OHKO and Evasion Clauses need to be reevaluated in this new metagame. With all this insanity going on right now, we need to be more cautious when banning things without due process.
Almost?
As the metagame becomes more and more prominent they're bound to change the game to suit this, to some extent at lest. For example, the Explosion nerf. Explosion didn't really matter in-game, so it must have been a metagame-influenced decision
I don't see the problem with having an Inconsistent "Clause" or whatever. We've nominated items to be banned before, so I don't get it. In fact, I'm pretty sure that we could have just banned Shadow Tag rather than Wobbuffet itself in Gen IV. (EDIT: if it had an alternate ability) I never really objected to the "Pokémon with move" bans suggested by Aldaron a while back, either.
In terms of actually banning it, it's not so much that it's "too strong" as that it removes the control of the game from the players and hands it to the computers to do whatever. In any other setting, that would be called a virus :P It's not so much that Inconsistent teams are inconsistent as that it makes the opposing team inconsistent.
In terms of actually banning it, it's not so much that it's "too strong" as that it removes the control of the game from the players and hands it to the computers to do whatever. In any other setting, that would be called a virus :P It's not so much that Inconsistent teams are inconsistent as that it makes the opposing team inconsistent.
Actually, that was RSE. In DP, it was 4-8 turns, which as you can see, is ridiculous with Shadow Tag. 3 turns is much more manageable though, since depending on what you send in, you only get 1 or 2 free turns, which could backfire, and most of the time, damage to Wobb is permanent due to no recovery move including Rest, so it can't Encore stuff several times a match.
Wobbuffet had no secondary ability in Gen IV.
I do not oppose banning abilities, but it has to apply to all pokemon that have the ability (so at the moment a Shadow Tag ban would not work as I do not think DW Wobbuffet is legal). We've done this with moves and items alike. I don't much like the argument of "simplicity," but it's way too strenuous to make individual restrictions for each pokemon (ie Garchomp cannot use Yache Berry). I do not believe in "slippery slopes." As MoP pointed out there is no precedent; just because we do one thing does not mean we have to amplify it, take it to the extreme, and apply it to every instance possible. Because we do A does not mean we have to do B. It does not work that way. It does strengthen the argument of doing B, but we can say no.
I've not played with Inconsistent yet, so I'm not qualified to talk about it really, but out of interest, for those that have used these, how do Remoraid, Snorunt and Bidoof fare with the ability?
i dont think incos is that broken.
Incos is first too luck based since were relying on getting(as far as the pokemon that have it goes) defense and evasion boost which is roughly 1/8 chance.
afetr evasion boost theres still chance were able to actualy hit it. This just my opinion since everytime i met that i usualy have my toxicroak in my team(you know what that mean)
Incos is first too luck based since were relying on getting(as far as the pokemon that have it goes) defense and evasion boost which is roughly 1/8 chance.
afetr evasion boost theres still chance were able to actualy hit it. This just my opinion since everytime i met that i usualy have my toxicroak in my team(you know what that mean)
It does mean we will spend years arguing over the question of doing B, then C, then D. It's simply not worth the time wasted.
Well, we could still ban Shadow Tag. It would merely mean Wobb/Wynaut would get banned in the process.
I think we have some time.
I don't think Inconsistent needs to be banned. Someone just needs to come up with a counter that can still function against a team without it. The first thing that comes to mind is Eccentric Ditto. Taunt users could work, especially if their speed is faster than the Inconsistent user and the Inconsistent user has no attacking moves (Sub/Protect/Toxic/etc.). Static Damage moves (Seismic Toss, Night Shade) work well (by ignoring stat boosts): especially when combined with a priority move to hit before the Substitute is formed, or prevent them by doing so by Tricking a Choice Item, Encoring them, or Taunting them: Sableye gets a special mention for having Mischievous Heart, Taunt, Seismic Toss, AND Night Shade. You could also Spite them and drain their PP much quicker, which again works well against generic Choiced Attackers with low PP moves.
Well, we get that counters exist, and we get that there may well be a "good" counter. That can also apply to OHKO and Evasion moves (even more to them, I'd say). That is the avenue that is being taken and that is what should be addressed at this point.
Eccentric Ditto only really works if the Inconsistent user is at low health and a Sub is not up. With evasion boosts, Ditto frequently even fails to hit, giving an opportunity to stall away. Taunt users can be annoying at times, but Taunt has the chance to miss, and it lasts for almost no time at all. The astute player will switch out against a Taunt user (though really only with bad boosts), or just attack directly. The same thing goes for Encore (unless that Encore user is named Erufuun).
Static damage moves just don't usually work, again due to stalling for evasion boosts. A combination of priority + slow attacks sometimes works, but you have to act very quickly. Tricking a Choice item to an Inconsistent user effectively shuts it down. Kudos to you if you manage to do that! Spite is a neat idea, but it Inconsistent users will not be affected that much. In Octillery's case, Surf and Toxic really have more PP than necessary. It is generally a good idea to get anything with Inconsistent out of play as quickly as possible.
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