np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

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@Merii: See my point number one. There is no set of Pokemon that God declared "These are OU." OU is an arbitrary definition that we give to what certain people believe to be "the best" metagame. "Too good to be used in OU" isn't a viable argument anymore. More new strategies are coming to light as we speak, and this will change the metagame. Humans naturally resist change, and as a community, there will always be the group that simply wants to ban it. If we have a certain number of "evenly broken" pokemon, there can be a tier. The fact is, is that a metagame is being invented, and we are trying to control it. The metagame inevitably will vary. We could place it at what would qualify as UU or BL last generation by going on a massive banning spree. We could also make it Low Uber (as of last generation) like the current metagame is. Or, we could try to ressurect a dead metagame. Throwing on entirely new abilities, moves, and Pokemon to an old metagame will not work. Therefore, the past is no longer applicable. What we have is what we build from here on out, and I want to know if the metagame is playable, regardless of how "broken" it is. We don't have OU as we knew it anymore. Tough, now learn a new way to play.

As of right now, I oppose all bans on the basis of being too powerful. There is my answer, Merii.
 
Perhaps it is for that reason I want to create a Power rating and a Usage Rating.
One based off of predicted Power, how hard it hits, overall coverage, etc. While the other is the traditional usage rating, how often it's actually used, and where (tier wise).
I think that's better than calling something OU/Uber/etc. because it's more consistent:
something in Ubers was usually because of power, while OU and down was usually a mix of the two. By separating the two, you get a better idea of how something performs.
 
Rediamond said:
@Merii: See my point number one. There is no set of Pokemon that God declared "These are OU." OU is an arbitrary definition that we give to what certain people believe to be "the best" metagame. "Too good to be used in OU" isn't a viable argument anymore. More new strategies are coming to light as we speak, and this will change the metagame. Humans naturally resist change, and as a community, there will always be the group that simply wants to ban it. If we have a certain number of "evenly broken" pokemon, there can be a tier. The fact is, is that a metagame is being invented, and we are trying to control it. The metagame inevitably will vary. We could place it at what would qualify as UU or BL last generation by going on a massive banning spree. We could also make it Low Uber (as of last generation) like the current metagame is. Or, we could try to ressurect a dead metagame. Throwing on entirely new abilities, moves, and Pokemon to an old metagame will not work. Therefore, the past is no longer applicable. What we have is what we build from here on out, and I want to know if the metagame is playable, regardless of how "broken" it is. We don't have OU as we knew it anymore. Tough, now learn a new way to play.

As of right now, I oppose all bans on the basis of being too powerful. There is my answer, Merii.
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You got me, i don't really have a counter argument for anything you said. cause you are right. thats how it SHOULD be, its unfair but thats the way it is. If you give people the right to use Kyogres and Lugias in OU they will! Thats just how people are. it doesn't matter what else is in the tier with them i guarantee you that if Darkrai was put into OU he would be the most over used pokemon since forever! He would be in every single team. no matter what.

you are right, it shouldn't be the way it is with pokemon that are automatically ubers, but it is. now Tough, now learn THE WAY to play.
 
Rediamond said:
@Merii: See my point number one. There is no set of Pokemon that God declared "These are OU." OU is an arbitrary definition that we give to what certain people believe to be "the best" metagame. "Too good to be used in OU" isn't a viable argument anymore. More new strategies are coming to light as we speak, and this will change the metagame. Humans naturally resist change, and as a community, there will always be the group that simply wants to ban it. If we have a certain number of "evenly broken" pokemon, there can be a tier. The fact is, is that a metagame is being invented, and we are trying to control it. The metagame inevitably will vary. We could place it at what would qualify as UU or BL last generation by going on a massive banning spree. We could also make it Low Uber (as of last generation) like the current metagame is. Or, we could try to ressurect a dead metagame. Throwing on entirely new abilities, moves, and Pokemon to an old metagame will not work. Therefore, the past is no longer applicable. What we have is what we build from here on out, and I want to know if the metagame is playable, regardless of how "broken" it is. We don't have OU as we knew it anymore. Tough, now learn a new way to play.

As of right now, I oppose all bans on the basis of being too powerful. There is my answer, Merii.
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Well said.

People have this mindset that Starmie, Gengar, Blissey and Tyranitar are OU, and the tier needs to be adjusted around them. If those Pokemon are broken, they think the OU is "wrong", and if those Pokemon ended up UU, they'd think the tiers were "wrong" again.

People have GOT to get out of that mindset, seriously. What about in Generation 12 when we've got 50 base 680s? Will we put them all in Ubers? (Obviously, if every single one is broken, we will, but that's highly unlikely).

Now it's not so bad, but I'm worried for the future tbh. It's like how people couldn't get used to the prospect of having Alakazam and Chansey in UU last generation, just because they had always been banned before (one for being thought to be broken, and one for being an NFE).
 
Yogi Bear. said:
Perhaps it is for that reason I want to create a Power rating and a Usage Rating.
One based off of predicted Power, how hard it hits, overall coverage, etc. While the other is the traditional usage rating, how often it's actually used, and where (tier wise).
I think that's better than calling something OU/Uber/etc. because it's more consistent:
something in Ubers was usually because of power, while OU and down was usually a mix of the two. By separating the two, you get a better idea of how something performs.
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The tier list should be based solely on usage, because a tier list is basically categorizing Pokemon by how used they are, with a few Pokemon banned here and there to make each of the metagames more playable.

It's not really meant to show how well something performs. If a terrible Pokemon is getting lots of usage, it should still be placed in OverUsed, because, it is overused.

Obviously, there's a lot of correlation, because better Pokemon get used more, as people are trying to win, but the purpose of tier lists are to show usage, not power. And then the UnderUsed metagame is a metagame where people are limited to using Pokemon that aren't used very much in OU, it's not a metagame for "weaker" Pokemon. Again, it just so happens the Pokemon are weaker, in general, because people are trying to win.
 
@Merii again: I didn't say that people wouldn't abuse Kyogre/Lugia in OU given a chance. Not doing so would be idiocy. And for that, I am forever greatful that Policy Review created an initial banlist. This is the metagame that was determined to be in place; the guide to what the metagame would look like. I believe that we must determine exactly what the metagame is; only then can we figure out what it takes to be broken in the current metagame. I have played on a Shoddy server that attempted to imitate the fourth gen metagame. It was honestly fairly pathetic, and not even worth being considered a new metagame. What is the metagame? Is it a Psychic dominated offense like Gen One? A stall-all metagame like Gen Two? The mix of stall and power of Advance? Is it yet another Dragon-Steel meta? The point is, is that the metagame has never stayed constant, and to assume it will is ridiculous. I want to know what the metagame looks like. Then, we can see what is truly broken. In conclusion, I am not saying that certain Pokemon are not inevitably broken, I am just saying that we have no idea what we are doing, as evidenced by the new discovery of inconsistent that could redefine the metagame. For now, let us discover the metagame that Policy Review has given us.

EDIT: This may be a bad idea, but it might not be a bad idea to actullt have a debate/discussion on what the metagame is. As I am unsure of if this should be put in UT, I will open up a page on the NS (Nuzlocke Sega) site for debate. For all practical purposes, it will be an extension of UT. I will look into the possibility of opening a thread in UT.
 
Rediamond said:
@Merii again: I didn't say that people wouldn't abuse Kyogre/Lugia in OU given a chance. Not doing so would be idiocy. And for that, I am forever greatful that Policy Review created an initial banlist. This is the metagame that was determined to be in place; the guide to what the metagame would look like. I believe that we must determine exactly what the metagame is; only then can we figure out what it takes to be broken in the current metagame. I have played on a Shoddy server that attempted to imitate the fourth gen metagame. It was honestly fairly pathetic, and not even worth being considered a new metagame. What is the metagame? Is it a Psychic dominated offense like Gen One? A stall-all metagame like Gen Two? The mix of stall and power of Advance? Is it yet another Dragon-Steel meta? The point is, is that the metagame has never stayed constant, and to assume it will is ridiculous. I want to know what the metagame looks like. Then, we can see what is truly broken. In conclusion, I am not saying that certain Pokemon are not inevitably broken, I am just saying that we have no idea what we are doing, as evidenced by the new discovery of inconsistent that could redefine the metagame. For now, let us discover the metagame that Policy Review has given us.
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ok, ill agree to that
 
Darkrai is easily countered by any pokemon with Insomnia or Vital Spirit. So what's the problem with that? The two most viable users are Honchkrow and Primeape. >_> That's the problem.

However, Darkrai suffers from 4 moveslot syndrome. It can run Sub to avoid being so easily revenged, but it then must give up NP/Focus Blast, giving it either average power or poor coverage. If it doesn't run Sub, it dies. A lot. So you can take advantage of it by picking on one of its 3 possible weaknesses.

Back to Inconsistent, a good phazer can stop the boosting. But it won't kill them. Killing them is a whole different matter...
 
The options in phazers are very limited though, since roar/whirlwind can miss.
That leaves haze, clear smog, and perish song,which all have very limited user pools, and often little use outside of inconsistent (mostly because they are just plain outclassed by roar and whirlwind for all other purposes).
 
Arc Tech said:
The options in phazers are very limited though, since roar/whirlwind can miss.
That leaves haze, clear smog, and perish song,which all have very limited user pools, and often little use outside of inconsistent (mostly because they are just plain outclassed by roar and whirlwind for all other purposes).
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Perish Trapping has some use in that it destroys Burungeru and Nattorei, two common walls this Gen.

Unfortunately, many Nattorei run Shed Shell and not many pokemon can Perish Trap. The ones that can aren't great. Haze would have to be used every other turn to prevent them from KOing your Haze user. Which would be the equivalent of having Truant. Attacking every other turn.

There's Unaware, but the ones with Unaware typically aren't that great (Quagsire, Clefable, etc).

Most of the time countering this either means using bad pokemon or getting lucky. Not always, but it's still pretty intense.
 
@ People talking about Metagame.
My definition of Uber is a Pokemon which when switched in you can't create a real counter for. At this point I wouldn't say that Incosistent pokemon are Uber EXCEPT for when they get their Evasion up. So I'd say banning Incosistent's evasion giving abilities OR the ability itself is the best bet. Beyond that I have NO idea what to do really. But if there are Pokemon which people don't enjoy playing against (by which I mean LOTS of people, to the point where a counter is REQUIRED) then the metagame shouldn't involve them. I'm currently Okay with Inconsistent users. A good mixed attacker wipes them up quite easily in my experience. Of course, i've only fought them a few times.

@The general conversation of who's Uber. Nobody, Tail Glow Manaphy is annoying, but he can be dealt with.
 
cco said:
@The general conversation of who's Uber. Nobody, Tail Glow Manaphy is annoying, but he can be dealt with.
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You have to able to OHKO if you're slower, or 2HKO if you're faster.
Because he can regain all his health and heal status in a single turn.

Also, he's only used in rain, so other weather sweepers (*cough* Doryuuzu *cough*) aren't an option for a quick KO.
Not that I'm saying he's broken.
 
SJCrew said:
I think we've mostly established that Shaymin-S and Darkrai are broken. The tricky part is what to do with Inconsistent. The problem we're having is that it's not a matter of the Pokemon themselves utilzing the ability well enough to make them broken, but rather the ability itself pushes inarguably bad Pokemon over the edge through its merits and its merits alone. On top of that, it's not a matter of just banning Octillery, but then Smeargle, Glalie, and Bibarel as well.

In order to avoid doing that, I propose that we make an Inconsistent Clause instead. As Chou once said, it's about the same as Evasion and OHKO with regards to being anti-competitive, as well as a problem that needs to be remedied right away. We can have a topic in PR, put it to a vote, and take care of it the same way we did the others. The only question is when the officials will start to take notice and act.
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I have already discussed this at length on IRC and with my policy team. We have a solution, so just be patient and wait for me to explain when I get some time.
 
What's all the fuss with Inconsistent?

It's entirely luck based to just get anything that could be threatening to the metagame. None of the Inconsistent users are fantastic on their own (well, Smeargle is, but for a completely unrelated reason), and it's half a chance of hitting with an OHKO move to get the specific boost you want, and the ability has downsides as well. You're essentially relying on luck that is absolutely not in your favor to make a bad Pokemon good. Acupressure wasn't that big of a deal in Gen IV, so why is Inconsistent such a big deal in Gen V?
 
have you ever played against an octillery..? acupressure is a move that requires you to use it every turn to get the same effect. inconsistent mons just use protect and sub until they are at like +4 across the board
 
The reason that Inconsistent users are so broken is that once they have a sub set up there is literally nothing you can do if you lack a phazer and even then its problematic due to evasion boosts. But if you dont have a phazer left or if they've been baton passed ingrain, once a sub is up you can't beat it at all.
 
UltiMario said:
What's all the fuss with Inconsistent?

It's entirely luck based to just get anything that could be threatening to the metagame. None of the Inconsistent users are fantastic on their own (well, Smeargle is, but for a completely unrelated reason), and it's half a chance of hitting with an OHKO move to get the specific boost you want, and the ability has downsides as well. You're essentially relying on luck that is absolutely not in your favor to make a bad Pokemon good. Acupressure wasn't that big of a deal in Gen IV, so why is Inconsistent such a big deal in Gen V?
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It's better than Acupressure because you can Protect spam it.

And it's not all luck based.
Good Stat-ups: Speed, Evasion, attacking stat of choice, Def, Sp Def
Possible Stat-Ups: Speed, Evasion, Atk, Sp Atk, Def, Sp Def

There's a significant chance of something good happening.

Also, the stat-drops are only -1. The stat-ups are +2. So if a stat gets dropped, a single boosting turn will leave it higher than before.
 
monkfish said:
have you ever played against an octillery..? acupressure is a move that requires you to use it every turn to get the same effect. inconsistent mons just use protect and sub until they are at like +4 across the board
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Of course I've played Octillery, I've played it on multiple occasions. Hell, I played a team completely focused on abusing Octillery and Bibarel with Inconsistent to win, and I slaughtered it. I'm not just talking low level play here, I'm talking my experiences in the high 1200s-low 1300s range, which is pretty decent as of now.

...Unfortunately, the trick to it seems to be the fact I run SS to negate the leftovers recovery by them, making the whole trick significantly weaker. Unless they run Rain for favorable weather, inconsistent crumbles.

Its really not that hard. Its sorta specialized, needing a Haze/Phazer of some sort or damaging weather, but you've gotta admit here, the overwhelming majority of teams has at least one of these things.

Edit: If we factor in luck here on your side too, you could get lucky on predictions and get in something faster than Octillery on a Protect without a Sub up with it, and pretty much you can just KO it with whatever.
 
Not when it's got a ton of boosts. Mine took zapdos's thunderbolts at too low health to make a sub. And didn't die. even after sandstorm. +6 sp def ftw?

And it's not too hard to bp ingrain. And even with sand, they can still make 3 subs + 3/4 protects = 6/7 turns of inconsistent boosts.
 
Inconsistent exists to make bad pokemon good, as far as I can see - and it's not as if they come without counters. Gen 5 introduces Chain-moves breaking subs, MH Psych Up and Haze, Clear Smog, Telekinesis, etc - that's on top of various counters that have been around forever.

So you can't just blaze through with hyper-offensive or generic stall anymore? Deal with it, consider some more radical options on your team perhaps (I may just be saying this because I run Unfable)
 
MS Psych up: it comes down to a matter of luck with crits and evasion and accuracy. This is why double team and minimize are banned.

MS Haze: what MS poke learns haze? EDIT: murkrow lol. I guess it's something, but even with evo stone seems gimmicky, it's not like it can stall as well as sableye, thanks to burn atk cut and less immunities. Have DW pokes been proven male only or can it get roost?.
Haze is outclassed becuase roar/ww do it's job better against everything but evasion- eliminates subs, causes hazard damage, scout for counters/best switch in, can also force the opponent to have an unfavorable match-up to make him switch and have even more hazard damage, etc. Haze also has a much more restricted movepool.

Clear smog is not totally outclassed becuase it is also an attack and doesn't have negative priority, but it's userpool is very restricted. Does it go through subs?

Chain-attacks: limited userpools, mainly cloyster and breloom. Cloyster also isn't ding that much damage, and is taking a bit in return, especially if boosted. Breloom can probably counter if it hasn't had too many boosts and doesn't have ice beam.

Telekinesis: Not worth the turn, just gives them time to get defense boosts (can it miss?)

I think the list of counters is really limited to breloom and erufuun, outside of gimmicks, and maybe milotic and crobat. But Milo would rather have dragon tail this gen. And 3 of them are weak to ice, so once Glalie comes out...
 
All I see is too much worrying.

Octillery isn't guaranteed to get that Ingrain passed to him. Octillery isn't guaranteed to get the boosts it needs. You're not guaranteed to miss after a single evasion boosts.

Even when Octillery is set-up, it's not even close to an instant win. It simply is a very good ability put on, for the most part, some very VERY bad Pokemon. Gochi isn't going to Ubers off that Shadow Tag anytime EVER buddy, no matter how good of an ability it is, I don't see how the likes of Bibarel or Octillery can be any worse.
 
The point is not whether it's not unbeatable or not. Double Team and OHKO moves are far from unbeatable.

The point is that that it completely takes the situation out of the hands of the opponent (and even the user to an extent)-- the battle becomes a crap shoot. This is not conducive to competitive battling.
 
Inconsistent needs to be banned under Evasion Clause. Hell, we've banned freaking Soul Dew before, why not this?

Other than that, Skymin, Darkrai, Deoxys-N/A, and Doryuuzu all seem to be uber. I beat them most times I go up against them, but that's because people tend to make really, really stupid decisions with them. Such as switching Skymin into Pory2, who by the Not Being Stupid Clause is required run BoltBeam on every set. I get the feeling that if people weren't really, really dumb about using them, I wouldn't be able to win any games. Can you believe one of my last opponents used Swords Dance on his Dory after my Erufuun switched in? The fact that they're still tough to deal with despite such horrible play supports the idea that they're uber.

On a bright note, Garchomp never gives me problems. It would be nice to see the land shark stay in OU. Ditto in particular seems AMAZING for curbing the excesses of many old Ubers, as it can not only end the enemy's sweep but start a sweep of its own. Best of all, Ditto is VERY easy to deal with, so it's not gonna go uber itself.
 
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