np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

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Dory isn't broken. It has a number of counters who are also viable in the general metagame, and it doesn't have the movepool or stats to play around said counters. Gliscor will always beat a Doryuzuu barring rock slide flinch hax. Bronzong won't lose to dory either.

For the same reasoning, Darkrai, Deoxys, and Skymin are broken. There aren't any pokemon that counter them while still maintaining general metagame viability (would you really be using primeape in ou if it weren't for darkrai?). Techincally, deoxys has counters (SpD Rachi, Scizor), but the ability to ohko over half the metagame with one set is insane. And scizor loses to sub + fire punch.
 
This is the worst metagame of all time, even worse than Little Cup! It literally comes down to people using the same shit, there is not much variation at all. Lets not even talk about Inconsistent, I just hope there is a banfest because fuck I don't know how long I can play Pokemon for if the metagame stays as terrible as it is now.
 
UltiMario said:
Octillery isn't guaranteed to get that Ingrain passed to him. Octillery isn't guaranteed to get the boosts it needs. You're not guaranteed to miss after a single evasion boosts.
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But when it does? When it has +2 Evasion, Def, and Sp Def in just 3 turns and it used Protect for 2 of those 3 turns?

It's not an insta-win, but it's pretty dang hard to deal with.
 
B-Lulz said:
This is the worst metagame of all time, even worse than Little Cup! It literally comes down to people using the same shit, there is not much variation at all. Lets not even talk about Inconsistent, I just hope there is a banfest because fuck I don't know how long I can play Pokemon for if the metagame stays as terrible as it is now.
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Aside from the occasional Octillery, I actually really like this metagame. The new Pokemon are a fresh breath of air, and there's a good amount of variation. It doesn't seem much more centralized than 4th-gen OU to me, and you still see lots of unorthodox 'mons show up from time to time.
 
B-Lulz said:
This is the worst metagame of all time, even worse than Little Cup! It literally comes down to people using the same shit, there is not much variation at all. Lets not even talk about Inconsistent, I just hope there is a banfest because fuck I don't know how long I can play Pokemon for if the metagame stays as terrible as it is now.
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I'd like you to be more specific in this, who are you seeing so often?
 
Octillery has not been too bad for me. I get toxic Spikes up early with Hoiiga which really makes Octillery hard to threaten my team. As long as I poison the blasted thing I can usually stall it out. I hate Darkrai though. Mainly due to the new Sleep Mechanics which pretty much cripple any pokemon.

EDIT:
Oh, there are teams build around strategies that have an advantage against it! That makes it so not broken!
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If that comment was directed toward me notice that i never said that Octillery was not broken nor did I directly aim to build a team that counter-teams Inconsistent users. Inconsistent is a bitch to play against but thanks to team previews I can usually work around it provided I don't fuck up. I agree that Inconsistent can dramatically reduces the skill involved in a match but I guess I am a little reluctant to bandwagon a start banning abilities this early into Gen 5
 
Oh, there are teams build around strategies that have an advantage against it! That makes it so not broken!

I've lost to Octillery once-- once out of numerous times I've battled it. That one time was STILL enough to convince me it's broken.


NailsOU said:
Dory isn't broken. It has a number of counters who are also viable in the general metagame, and it doesn't have the movepool or stats to play around said counters. Gliscor will always beat a Doryuzuu barring rock slide flinch hax. Bronzong won't lose to dory either.

For the same reasoning, Darkrai, Deoxys, and Skymin are broken. There aren't any pokemon that counter them while still maintaining general metagame viability (would you really be using primeape in ou if it weren't for darkrai?). Techincally, deoxys has counters (SpD Rachi, Scizor), but the ability to ohko over half the metagame with one set is insane. And scizor loses to sub + fire punch.
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How many times does it need to be said before it sinks through people's skulls?

"No Counters =/= Broken." You can have no perfect counters and still be OU.

Likewise "Has Counters =/= Isn't broken." You can have counters and still be Uber.
 
Rayquaza_ said:
60% flinch rate rings a bell?
Every pokemon worth of OU status should be hard to deal with and Octillery has its fair share of counters.

This is not Gen 4, people need to stop thinking that the 40 or so previously OU pokemon should need capable of countering every new threat.
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Did I say that? No. I said it is hard to deal with. That does not equal me saying that it is broken or cannot be countered.

In addition to taking my quote waaay out of context, you failed to get the point. The point was that people shouldn't downplay Inconsistent because when Octillery gets lucky, it becomes a monster.

And how do you even connect this to Gen4 OU? I fail to see your connection between Octillery and Gen4 OU.

P.S.- Gen4 OU had 48 pokes. Not 40.
 
Oh, is it horror story time now? Here's one: switched in Latios to Octillery, CM'd up to 6, PP stalled it for a while before it finally critted. Literally nothing I could do. "Kill it quickly!" It got a SpD boost early, so Thunder only barely broke subs. "Phase it!" His Smeargle set up Ingrain on one of my Pokemon that could do little to it. "Run hazers!" Why, certainly. I'll run a move that bears no use against anything BUT these teams just so I get another chance to beat them or simply go into stall wars again. Inconsistent makes the game both luck-based and just damn BORING. Not worth including in the metagame under any circumstances. Hell, the only way I didn't gnaw off a limb during that "battle" was insulting my opponent every other turn.
 
I am not going to comment on the luck brought into the game by inconsistent. However, the strategy is only, what, 48 hours old? In time, some one will find a way to counter it rather effectively. Once again, this is a new generation. If we have 20 Pokemon who would have been broken last generation, then OU is a new tier. I also don't see what people are complaining about. From past experience with Gyarados, it was almost guaranteed to sweep: One DD, and it's over. People never argued it was broken. Why? Because people had the stereotypical image of it being OU. People fussed when Salamence was banned. Why? Because there was an image of it as OU. When Wobuffet was brought down last Gen, people resisted it, even though it was largely unused. Why? There was an image of it as Uber. Forget Gyarados being a boss; it is clearly OU. But Wobuffet is clearly Uber.

Th point being, is that the inconsistent meta is one or two days old, and waving the ban hammer is insane. People need to cone to terms with the metagame. That would be the reason for the 1500 CRE limit. People there have come to terms with the playstyle of the new, rather than just reforming the old. Stall, Hyper Offemse, and Balance are not dead; but they have been reborn. Let's play the metagame that Policy Review gave us, and not our own litle world of Fourth Gen comfort.
 
From past experience with Gyarados, it was almost guaranteed to sweep: One DD, and it's over. People never argued it was broken. Why? Because people had the stereotypical image of it being OU. People fussed when Salamence was banned. Why? Because there was an image of it as OU. When Wobuffet was brought down last Gen, people resisted it, even though it was largely unused. Why? There was an image of it as Uber. Forget Gyarados being a boss; it is clearly OU. But Wobuffet is clearly Uber.
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1) In case you haven't noticed, Gyarados was mostly overhyped. Offensive DD Gyara was mediocre, bulky DD was okay against stall but sucked against offense. By the end of 4th gen, RestTalk Roar Gyarados was arguably the best set.
2) Salamence ended up banned 8-1 wasn't it??
3) Wobbuffet was banned because it was legitimately broken. The reason no-one used it was because it was found to be broken and banned before people got the chance to spam it. He's hard enough to deal with in Ubers as it is, let alone OU.
 
Saying that in time people will find a way to counter inconsistent is the same as saying they'll find a way around evasion boosting moves, they might be able to get around it by hitting the pokemon before it gets too many boosts or by using some obscure counter but it makes the game far too luck based. Inconsistent does the same, if Octillery gets the right boosts he becomes very difficult to stop, honestly even though evasion boosts are by far the worst he can receive its still difficult to deal with even if you can hit it due to being able to get defense boosts to stop you breaking subs.
 
Gyarados isnt overhyped at all and it definitely one of the best sweeper in gen 4 in term of getting chance of sweep and actualy having powerful sweeping prowess. But yeah Resttalk roar gyarados is really the best set Gyarados has.

I agree salamence is argued among many umm for lack of words "lower level" player and even some higher level alike since they want to use mence and think mence isnt uber worthy(logical seeing most player only seen uber by stats not by performance while in term of uber playes, things like groudon is just plain beast king)

About wobb people dont acualy know how broken wobb is. They only knew wobb by paper (ohh free turn and choice killer but i dont know whats awesome from this shit)
and cant actualy use it in practice seeing how wobb is so hard to be used effectively.

The problem is most people are viewing metagame from gen 4 perspective so we dont know how to beat x y etc. I must admit it but tbh i myself dont think incos is that broken. Incos is like BP chain. If we executed it well its deadly. Otherwise its weak
 
To clarify: I personally believe it is broken. But regardless, 24 hours ago, people laughed when someone said inconsistent Octillery should be banned. I want to see if people abuse it beyond the first five days. This debate is pointless anyways, as a decision on the issue has already been reaches. Once again, I don't feel comfortable banning a strategy that is less than one week old.
 
JSND said:
Gyarados isnt overhyped at all and it definitely one of the best sweeper in gen 4 in term of getting chance of sweep and actualy having powerful sweeping prowess. But yeah Resttalk roar gyarados is really the best set Gyarados has.

I agree salamence is argued among many umm for lack of words "lower level" player and even some higher level alike since they want to use mence and think mence isnt uber worthy(logical seeing most player only seen uber by stats not by performance while in term of uber playes, things like groudon is just plain beast king)

About wobb people dont acualy know how broken wobb is. They only knew wobb by paper (ohh free turn and choice killer but i dont know whats awesome from this shit)
and cant actualy use it in practice seeing how wobb is so hard to be used effectively.

The problem is most people are viewing metagame from gen 4 perspective so we dont know how to beat x y etc. I must admit it but tbh i myself dont think incos is that broken. Incos is like BP chain. If we executed it well its deadly. Otherwise its weak
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Gyarados is good, but nowhere near as good as it was crapped up to be. Seriously, I have tanked a +2 Waterfall WITH CM BLISSEY and OHKOed back with Thunderbolt. Fun times.

What do you mean by "people don't know how broken Wobb is"?? Wobb was easy as hell to use. Switch it into a Pokemon that isn't immune to Counter/Mirror Coat (depending on the set), use Encore, either kill the thing or go to something to set up. Choiced sweepers are even more easily removed. I'm not talking based on theorymon either, all you needed to do is just play Ubers for a bit and you'll know how broken Wobb is. Apart from Choiced physical Ghosts and special Darks, the only Choice Band/Scarf/Specs user that could OHKO Wobb is Specs Kyogre with full-powered Water Spout in the rain. That was it. It can even take a Timid Specs Palkia's Hydro Pump in the rain and Mirror Coat for the win.

About Inconsistent: It's a lot easier to execute than a BP chain. There is luck involved, but keep in mind the rewards outweigh the risks (+2 vs -1??). It does not require extra moveslots and only needs ONE Pokemon. You take out a member of a BP chain, you probably just ruined it. You take out the Inconsistent user, well, you still have another 5 Pokemon to kill. Have fun.
 
Once again, a verdict on Inconsistent has already been reached. Everything aside, I forgot to add one more point to the three I laid out on page 19.
4) In many ways, the mechanics of a Smogon metagame still apply, but in a Serebii world. People will look for the best strategy, and about three or four prominent carbon-copy teams will form. However, there are too many threats, and four sets will not encompass every possible playsyle. People will constantly discover new ways to win (Inconsistent), and that trend will rise, forcing some other style down to UU. The point is, is that there are enough threats that can be viable in OU to create two 40 Pokemon OU tiers that we know and love. The metagame will be (ironically) inconsistent, and Smogon must learn to deal with it. Saying SkarmBliss+Rotom-A+Forretress+Filler+Filler is the only way to play would be completly absurd now. OU will be whatever the suspect voters manipulate it to look like. And that is just trying to show this metagame in a way that it is not.
 
If your talking about how people oversaying gyara... yeah gyara is too weak sometime.
(coming from someone who uses gyara and is a gyara maniac) gyara isnt as good as many say(+1 unstoppable ? cmon blissey can take + 2)

But i cant acept your sugestion to play ubers a bit(i play ubers every day i ladder when i play gen 5 and i play uber more than standard now due to the rule of awesome that uber has. Set that looks "cool" in concept(Cm giratina Cm arceus basically every CM pokemon in the universe of uber) is very viable for example making me adicted to uber play. And i know for sure how broken wobb is but the truth remains that many underestimated wobb. Basicaly when people in other forum(accepting public oopinion is better than staying in smogon only discussion) that deny wobb brokenness discuss wobb they say just set up on it(encore stupid), its frail(what the hell a frail pokemon can survive palkia hydro pump anyway ?), only 1 time use crap and the list goes on. This show how many people dont use wobb well and its hard for them which in this cas is the majority. Its a pointless opinion if majority of people dont agree with us. Also when using wobb we still has 30 % chance of failing and most people is a wuss for not wanting to take risk and something say an over the top and unlikely to be happen thing(taunt set upper kick wobb ass like they dont know the fact that no wobb will switch in on those things) that show majority wise wobb is hard to use

And did i mention that the stupidity of most anti wobb(which is again the majority) goes to saying power creep is the reason wobb isnt effective ?(hey palkia is weak !!! he have lower than base 120 attacking stats(average of gen 5 attacking stats) its NU not ubers lol)
THis is still arguable though

sorry if its quite confusing
 
Rediamond said:
@Merii: See my point number one. There is no set of Pokemon that God declared "These are OU." OU is an arbitrary definition that we give to what certain people believe to be "the best" metagame. "Too good to be used in OU" isn't a viable argument anymore. More new strategies are coming to light as we speak, and this will change the metagame. Humans naturally resist change, and as a community, there will always be the group that simply wants to ban it. If we have a certain number of "evenly broken" pokemon, there can be a tier. The fact is, is that a metagame is being invented, and we are trying to control it. The metagame inevitably will vary. We could place it at what would qualify as UU or BL last generation by going on a massive banning spree. We could also make it Low Uber (as of last generation) like the current metagame is. Or, we could try to ressurect a dead metagame. Throwing on entirely new abilities, moves, and Pokemon to an old metagame will not work. Therefore, the past is no longer applicable. What we have is what we build from here on out, and I want to know if the metagame is playable, regardless of how "broken" it is. We don't have OU as we knew it anymore. Tough, now learn a new way to play.

As of right now, I oppose all bans on the basis of being too powerful.
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This would be the case if we had no ban list at all, but within the allowed things at the moment, there are clearly some that are too strong, and as such have to be banned for the sake of balance. "OU" does currently not exist, true, but it's basically every pokemon except for the banned ones, so it's not just about having a too small number of usable pokemon like it would probably be without a ban list (Ubers isn't really unbalanced, just heavily centralized). Ubers is also not really a tier, it's a banlist for standard play ("OU") in which things that are unhealthy for the metagame, mostly because they're too powerful, are put. This is not about wanting to have the same meta as in gen 4, it's about having a competetive metagame with variety and balance (these are the characteristics that seem most important in this case), from what I've got from doug's post linked in the OP.
 
I'm a noob but, I don't have trouble with Inconsistent. I have beaten him with Roopushin. When they use Protect use Bulk Up and when they use Substitute use Mach Punch. Dispute this, I feel that Inconsistent is broken because of my first encounter with it... Not a good memory...
 
one thing i would bring up is something being broken doesnt mean it is a good strategy. OHKO moves are a terrible idea that will more often than not cause you to loose and no real player would ever use them seriously. that being said they are still broken because a poor player can come in with a gliscor or something and spam a move and while mostly they will loose once in a while they will just get two lucky shots and win a match they just shouldnt. that applies to here as well i would say. it isnt that inconsistent is too powerful and will always assure you a win it is that sometimes you will just get a lucky break and get perfect boosts to win. is that fair to a better player that had nothing they could do.
 
mode.9800 said:
one thing i would bring up is something being broken doesnt mean it is a good strategy. OHKO moves are a terrible idea that will more often than not cause you to loose and no real player would ever use them seriously. that being said they are still broken because a poor player can come in with a gliscor or something and spam a move and while mostly they will loose once in a while they will just get two lucky shots and win a match they just shouldnt. that applies to here as well i would say. it isnt that inconsistent is too powerful and will always assure you a win it is that sometimes you will just get a lucky break and get perfect boosts to win. is that fair to a better player that had nothing they could do.
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That's why Inconsistent should be banned: it takes no skill. Everyone can slap a Smeargle, Octillery and Bibarel on their team and win through their ability. Competitive Pokémon should strive for competitiveness, not abusing something that is broken. It still requires a bit of luck, but it is far more reliable than spamming OHKO-moves.
 
@ Rayquaza_

Most of those pokes actually do take skill and prediction. They're also liveable. In the case of CSjirachi you can play around it rather easily and the chances of it sweeping your team with CSiron head are extremely low.

~~~

Yesterday I just got out of an inconsistent battle and I honostly agree with it being totally luck based. I battled it 3 times. (Each as an Octillery) 1 time the opponent didn't have luck on his side and I managed to phase it out before it could get evasion boosts. The next time the opponent played it late game which didn't give it very much time to get it's boosts up before I swept through it. The third time my opponent brought it in early game, got the evasion boosts and sweept completely through my team. That time I saw what the arguements were and can see an emergency ban in order.

I don't feel very strongly about this simply because I havent battled it enough times, but I do see that Inconsistent is very luck based and much easier to sweep with than CSjirachi. Under evasion clause I feel it would be best emergency banned. Without the evasion boosts, I feel people would have a much easier time with Inconsistent.

~Anyway, onto other bans~

Darkrai: It's evil. Weather or not by nature is up to Game Freak but Dark Void is seriously broken. It's very easy to get a sweep off with darkrai putting something important to sleep on your opponents or your team.

Skymin: What it really comes down to for me is the RNG of PO. I've Flinch Haxed people in 4th gen with CSjirachi but that was very rare. Skymin seems to get it commonly when I face it. That wouldn't be to much of a problem but the things got some brilliant coverage on my team. 2 pokemon might be able to resist it's attacks depending on which Hidden Power it has. Even then it'll just Flinch hax the one with the resist to death. I can't prepare for that thing without killing my team synergy. Mabye I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it if it werent for POs terrible RNG but come on.

Doryuzuu: Ok this thing is a fucking truck. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it, this thing is a monster. I play around it as best I can but it's very difficult to really stop a sweep. It has counters sure but just because it has counters and checks doesnt mean it's not gonna stop it's sweep. If a good player is playing Doryuzuu it's not gonna be simple to stop that thing, even with Skarmory. I'd imagine suspect would be in order.

Those are really the only problems I have with this metagame. Read it, ignore it, w/e. I was just giving my two cents.

TL;DR: Inconsistent, Darkrai, Skymin, and Doryuzuu are broken and need to be tested. (In the case of Inconsistent, emergency ban.)
 
Rayquaza_ said:
Neither does Choice Scarf Jirachi with Iron Head, Mischievous Heart Erufuun, U-Turn Scizor, Blissey switching in just about any special sweeper and a plethora of other things.
The whole "it takes no skill" argument is dumb; there are pokemon that are easier to use than others, it's always been like this.
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But in all those cases, there is a likely outcome to each scenario: Jirachi with flinching is aggravating but can be set up on, Erufuun is just a lesson in dealing with priority, you can predict Scizor is going to U-turn out, Blissey can be surprised with a mixed set, etc.

With Inconsistent, it's just flipping coins until you get a chain of right buffs and plowing through the opponent.
 
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