He's not saying that they are broken, just like evasion may not necesarily be broken. they are simply haxy beyond what the community is willing to tolerate. Last gen we had to, since they had no alternative abilities. Now they do, and we can ban the abilties without banning the pokemon.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
- Thread starter Philip7086
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He's not saying that they are broken, just like evasion may not necesarily be broken. they are simply haxy beyond what the community is willing to tolerate. Last gen we had to, since they had no alternative abilities. Now they do, and we can ban the abilties without banning the pokemon.
Anyone else tried Wobb + Hyper Offense yet?? It is ridiculously easy to pull off, I would have won quite a few matches now if it weren't for the server disconnecting. Right now, I'm putting Dual Screens into the equation as well, so it's pretty much Lead + Wobb + Bronzong + 3 setup sweepers. Even without the "hey one turn = autowin" like a lot of Ubers can pull off, you still have great setup sweepers like DD Mence, RP/SD Terakion and other stuff. Oh, Shell Break works pretty well too.
Yeah, its even harder to beat, when you throw weather into the mix. I have found though that it leaves you weak to weather, because of the lack of resistances, and revenge killer. One of my most successful teams was Politoed+Wobbuffet+Kingdra+Manaphy+Deoxys-S+Darkrai that utilized that strategy. Wobbuffet was almost the star of the team since it let Manaphy and Darkrai set up for free.
@gabe
i didn't say my team wasn't running a dragon counter, my garchomp isn't really my dragon counter, i have someone else for it.
Cresslia is a problem but i don't see them very often so it isn't a threat
Abomasnow can always OHKO with blizzard even with yache, it doesn't truly register as a threat since i would never pull him out without him being handled.
i didn't say my team wasn't running a dragon counter, my garchomp isn't really my dragon counter, i have someone else for it.
Cresslia is a problem but i don't see them very often so it isn't a threat
Abomasnow can always OHKO with blizzard even with yache, it doesn't truly register as a threat since i would never pull him out without him being handled.
Sand Veil and Snow Cloak raise it by a set amount (1 stage). This cannot be increased. The reason that Double Team/Minimize/Inconsistent are different is because you can boost yourself up to +6.
Suppose that Swords Dance Scizor could only boost to +1. It's not going to sweep a good team. The only way it'll sweep is if you let it get up to +6. In the same way, when Evasion cannot go beyond +1, you really won't be avoiding that much. +1 simply isn't a large enough boost to make it broken.
And we all know why Acupressure is different.......
Considering that you'll mostly be spamming Surf and Hurricane/Gale/whatever-it's-called, Dragon Pulse will really only be used for coverage. So Dragonite doesn't necessarily need STAB on a coverage move.
But Dragon Pulse has more power than Thunder anyway, I was just saying that it can abuse rain even further....
Okay, guys, we really have to stop talking about banning inconsistent. When you talk about banning that, that's like saying we should ban hax, which is just ridiculous. We've come to accept that hax is just part of the game, so just deal with it. Yeah, it's annoying, but that's part of pokemon. And clefable walls octillery all day anyways, as I mentioned earlier, so it's not like it's completely broken.
I want it banned, but I can deal with it if it's not banned.
The reason is that up until now, hax would occur because you'd get a lucky freeze, or your Fire Blast would burn, or your Surf would crit. But now there is luck every single turn. You get "hax" by using Protect.
The difference between hax and Inconsistent is that hax is normally when you get a lucky break. Not when something good happens by default. This is sort of like if Thunderbolt would paralyze every time it hit. That's not paralysis hax, it's mayhem.
I think you're missing my point. I would not support banning any pokemon outright just because of its ability, be it Garchomp or Cacnea. What I was suggesting was a ban on the abilities Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, but only at such a time when everything that has those abilities also has a legal second option. That way, nothing is banned unnecessarily, a loophole around the evasion clause (which is a part of standard rules, like it or not) is removed, and of course random bullshit like losing to Garchomp because your 100% accurate Ice Beam missed is eliminated (and please don't make stupid arguments like "use aerial ace" when we're talking about a pokemon with defensive stats higher than Swampert).
Evo Stone Porygon2 is 5HKOed by Air Slash. And it has Recover. And it can OHKO Skymin with Ice Beam.
If that doesn't make you a counter, I don't know what does.
But Skymin wins every time because it flinches Porygon2 4 times in a row.
Its still 2hk0'd by Seed flare however accounting in the S.def drop of course.So not really a very good counter.
I'd say the best this thread produced in terms of Shaymin-S counters was Specially deffensive afro bull.
Anyway..I honestly think banning sand veil is going a bit too far but i just dropped like 10 ranks out from top 3 because i missed 1 ice beam and 1 Hp ice on a garchomp so wtf bann that shit and il be very very happy ;].
Edit: Derp.
I didn't mean counter as in an actual counter.
I thought it would be obvious that I purposefully left out Seed Flare, because NO ONE talks about Skymin and "forgets" Seed Flare.
But apparently it wasn't obvious.
Anyway, my point wasn't even about countering Skymin. It was an example of how it can hax its way through pokemon which threaten it, thanks to Serene Grace.
Crobat will never be OHKOed by Timid LO Skymin's Air Slash, even after Stealth Rock.
But Jolly Crobat will always OHKO Timid LO Skymin with Brave Bird, assuming it runs at least 124 Atk EVs.
Ok. Well I didn't ask you about your stance on the matter, I just wanted to make sure you knew that your faux-consistent is an inaccurate representation of how a battle would normally play out for an Inconsistent user. I'm not talking about what boosts you get or how many teams you sweep, but the moves you'd make to maximize success. I don't know where you got "3 chances" from, but it's wrong.
First, you start off subbing on something you know you can force out or can't harm you, or Protect on something that can only do moderate damage to you at best and hope you get something good as you set up a sub next turn. By the time the suitable response comes in, you have the advantage. You can Protect from behind the sub, sub immediately after the attack, and stall out for boosts.
Keep in mind that I'm in no way implying you'll get any gamebreaking boosts before you run out of juice; I've gone through a full stall session without getting anything good. The point is that even the most narrow of setup opportunities gives you way more than three chances to stall for good boosts. And Bibarel praying for an evasion boost vs. a Fighting type as the last Pokemon is not a narrow setup opportunity, it's gg.
Oh yeah and all this kingdra hype...To be honest I find Kabutops, Qwilfish, hell even poliwrath a LOT more threatening. Nattorei dominates pretty much all kingdra sets while burungeru is a great switch-in to the mixed set. Kingdra is probably the easiest "rain abuser" of the lot to play around.
@The guy who used the "banning hax" analogy:
They actually had a poll on that in PR. Go figure.
Anyways, why are people complaining about Sand Veil and Snow Cloak? If I recall, Glaceon and Sandslash were never banned for having evasion boosts. If you can't deal with a Pokemon at +1 Evasion, than
A) That Pokemon is broken
but far more likely...
B) Your team has a weakness to it, so you just yell broken to avoid having to deal with it
But seriously, I just saw posts about the banning of Bidoof and Jumpluff. Can we please not yell "Glaceon is broken!" before we at least address more powerful threats (who I still don't think should be banned).
They actually had a poll on that in PR. Go figure.
Anyways, why are people complaining about Sand Veil and Snow Cloak? If I recall, Glaceon and Sandslash were never banned for having evasion boosts. If you can't deal with a Pokemon at +1 Evasion, than
A) That Pokemon is broken
but far more likely...
B) Your team has a weakness to it, so you just yell broken to avoid having to deal with it
But seriously, I just saw posts about the banning of Bidoof and Jumpluff. Can we please not yell "Glaceon is broken!" before we at least address more powerful threats (who I still don't think should be banned).
The thing about hax is, if it's removable, a lot of people would just ban it. We don't have to accept hax if it's removable. If crits were removable I'd definitely move to ban them.
The basis behind the ban of evasion is not that it's necesarily broken. It's that it's luck based shit.
And I believe statistical analysis shows that 1 boost of evasion is best in terms of set-up time versus benefit, meaning that sand veil/snow cloak is even better than double team (not sure about minimize) since you don't need to set it up and it doesn't take up a moveslot.
And I believe statistical analysis shows that 1 boost of evasion is best in terms of set-up time versus benefit, meaning that sand veil/snow cloak is even better than double team (not sure about minimize) since you don't need to set it up and it doesn't take up a moveslot.
While I back the removal of Inconsistent, due to the evasion and general ability to sweep by stalling with sub and protect, people talking about the removal of crits and other form of hax have clearly gone too far. Where do you stop with this, if a pokemon is fully paralysed, is that hax? Do we remove that from the game? Lava Plume's burn chance? Sacred Fire's burn chance? We don't remove these because even if you get critted once you can use the rest of your team to play around this whereas with evasion even if you have six counters to your opponents pokemon if you don't have a counter to evasion itself you can lose through sheer luck.
...But how exactly do you "deal" with a Garchomp Sandhaxing you? Using Swift? A weather inducer to clear off Sandstorm? A Cloud Nine pokémon? A Mold Breaker?
i think if someone say mence is banworthy it is arguable that nite come close.
Nite in this gen work very well due to MS and his helpin bulk. Seting him up is so easy like hell with this factor. Assuming a HO team with formula of
lead + set up + wobb + Bronzong as said by Shrang nite is a great choice in the sweeper slot(yeah and this is not uber where dual screen + groudon, dancing and polished since 2007 and will not Ohkoed by most priority = oh crap)
Among OU mon
The big 4 : mana is troubling me. Skymin is lucky factor, rai depend on set, and deo a is meh. So i only disagree on Deo-A tbh.
Mew: best set is stall set due to abundance of below base 100 and nattrei buru core(depend on set mew running too. Natt buru need both WoW and toxic to be handled reliably)
Mence : DD mence is now standard and mixmence is now too standard too. His WB-ing is hindered by that nattrunkeru core. DD mence risk burn and mixmence meteor is lol and buru will just burn and stall to hell. Its about time mence isnt dangerous anymore
(okay if you dont know even SPECS zandora cant deal enough damage to 2HKO with DM so dont hope for mixmence)
Garchomp : mixed opinion tbh. SD set is very dangerous unlike most said. Scarf usage has go down since sd set is now very popular and threatening. Set up is fairly easy and he can plow through team easily.
Dragonite : no one will expect nite to be such a beast dontcha ? even in beggining o gen 5 many say nite will be UU after all . But now what happen is beyond imagination. Nite become serious beast. Its insane bulk combined with set up is insane. But still not overpowered. Nite danger level is on par with garchomp and mence.
Nite in this gen work very well due to MS and his helpin bulk. Seting him up is so easy like hell with this factor. Assuming a HO team with formula of
lead + set up + wobb + Bronzong as said by Shrang nite is a great choice in the sweeper slot(yeah and this is not uber where dual screen + groudon, dancing and polished since 2007 and will not Ohkoed by most priority = oh crap)
Among OU mon
The big 4 : mana is troubling me. Skymin is lucky factor, rai depend on set, and deo a is meh. So i only disagree on Deo-A tbh.
Mew: best set is stall set due to abundance of below base 100 and nattrei buru core(depend on set mew running too. Natt buru need both WoW and toxic to be handled reliably)
Mence : DD mence is now standard and mixmence is now too standard too. His WB-ing is hindered by that nattrunkeru core. DD mence risk burn and mixmence meteor is lol and buru will just burn and stall to hell. Its about time mence isnt dangerous anymore
(okay if you dont know even SPECS zandora cant deal enough damage to 2HKO with DM so dont hope for mixmence)
Garchomp : mixed opinion tbh. SD set is very dangerous unlike most said. Scarf usage has go down since sd set is now very popular and threatening. Set up is fairly easy and he can plow through team easily.
Dragonite : no one will expect nite to be such a beast dontcha ? even in beggining o gen 5 many say nite will be UU after all . But now what happen is beyond imagination. Nite become serious beast. Its insane bulk combined with set up is insane. But still not overpowered. Nite danger level is on par with garchomp and mence.
My comment about hax was about removable hax. The only reason we've come to accept secondary effects and crits and such is that we cannot remove them at all. These matter at times and may turn an easy win into a loss. But I was just talking about a hypothetical in which they could be removed.
Agreed with pretty much everything said here.
At least that's how I feel.
Mence, while still a very powerful sweeper/pokemon, I don't see it being any better than Dragonite overall anymore. To be honest, I can see some saying/preferring dragonite as the overall better DDer than mence (I wouldn't but still won't ever deny that dragonite's effectiveness has skyrocketed in this gen.
As for garchomp, I've been saying the SD sweeper set is not as blend as some have been saying. While it's true it's not as effective as it was in the early stages of DP, I don't see it being any less effective than it was when it was a suspect back in DPPt (esp when the latis were suspects).
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