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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
- Thread starter Philip7086
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I disagree with this. Dragonite is nowhere near Salamence's level even with Multi Scale. Salamence's speed will always make him superior to Dnite and his Mixed set is still as ridiculous as ever. (Probably not broken in this gen) If I were to run Dual Screen, I would use Baton Pass instead of a setup sweeper.
No it isn't. Mew's best set will always be: Rock Polish / Swords Dance (or Nasty plot) / Baton Pass / Taunt.
You do realize that Mixmence is still dangerous right? Burungeru / Nattorei is a formidable core, but with prediction Salamence can smash right through them. (I'm not saying it's bad... it's great core) You're really underestimating Salamence here.
Garchomp is still Garchomp. As a Swords Dancer he is nearly flawless (Power, Speed, Bulk, Sand Veil) and Scarf is very reliable. I'm pretty Scarf is Garchomp's most prevalent set.
Dragonite is decent, and is easily the worst Dragon Type (out of the ones you mentioned) He's got bulk, but his speed is lackluster. Multiscale is absolutely ruined by entry hazards / sand so it basically requires that you run Dragonite as a lead to get the best out of Multiscale.
First off theres always Rapid spin for hazard. Also with nite's typing, he can switch on EQ and set up. His bulk also help him. Also nite is very easy getting + 2 (at which his power is near +2 mence) so its not a big deal
Non lead dragonite is actualy very viable seeing how his bulk help him to roost off damage. Also his speed while low is helped a lot by his bulk and dd. But i DO forget about baton pass. Assuming BP, mence is superior for many boost so i cant argue. But saying mence outclass or out whatever in gen 5 is very stupid. Nite while may be worse among the three is now actualy on par with garchomp and mence. If we ranked them nite, mence, chomp, Sazan and maybe latis is the best dragon with different perks so theres no worst or best one.
For mew im sorry to say its his best set. Theres no exact best set for mew since all his set perform so well but stall mew is as exceptional as BP mew.
BP mew risk dt on its face or roar if its sub variants. Also theres many faster taunter and MH. But undeniably both set work very great.
Stall mew is very threatening actualy, seeing it cover so many threats all in one.
To be exact, Nattrei, Non mixed tyranitar, Scizor, Hippo, Dory in SS, and many more lose to stall mew one on one. So saying best set is not possible now seeing those 2 set is great.
As of mence i might have been wrong for the DD variants since i havent really seen it but as of now scarf chomp is common so yeah. Mixmence wont pass the burungeru part of the core with mixed variants. As i wrote above, specs zando cant even meteor 2HKO in which he just recover then in case of mixmence, burn(even more ridiculous if its the Brick Break variants) BUT other than buru, mence IS a very powerful pokemon. I must admit it since one of my best team use mixmence roost variant.
Why would I go through the effort of keeping Rocks down, for Dragonite when I can do the same for better pokemon in general (Urugamosu is a notable one) Sand also ruins your strategy and it's quite common. I mean you are literally keeping rocks of the field... for an ability that absolutely requires max HP. Any previous damage ruins your strategy (yes I am aware of Roost)
You are overestimating his bulk. 91/95/100 defenses are okay and multi-scale is only active for limited amount of time. I never said Mence outclassed Dragonite, I said he was outright better than Dragonite and he is. How can you even suggest Dragonite is in the same league as Garchomp... let alone Latios (who is outrageous) I think your bias is clouding your judgment.
You're wrong. Baton Pass Mew is bordeline broken with support while StallMew is just "good." It seems like you haven't used Baton Pass Mew with proper support.
Irrelevant. Baton Pass Mew doesn't need to take anything on. All it needs to do is setup and pass.
Mixmence 2HKOes Burungeru with Draco Meteor + Outrage and Fire Blasts Nattorei. That's why I said he need prediction to beat the core.
@Whoever disagreed with my "serious problem" comment:
It is still a very good chance that Ice Beam (or whatever) hits. If you want to rely on a 20% chance to win, it's fine by me. Banning abilities because another ability is broken is a slippery slope. If the Pokemon is powerful enough to be banned, go ahead. However, I was only pushing for Sand Veil not to be banned, not that Garchomp was not broken (which I don't think it is).
It is still a very good chance that Ice Beam (or whatever) hits. If you want to rely on a 20% chance to win, it's fine by me. Banning abilities because another ability is broken is a slippery slope. If the Pokemon is powerful enough to be banned, go ahead. However, I was only pushing for Sand Veil not to be banned, not that Garchomp was not broken (which I don't think it is).
Now that is where our arguments diverge.
I wasn't factoring in any sort of player intelligence. I was simply saying "if Octillery comes out against x pokemon".
But you are saying that Octillery would only be sent in against pokeon that can't touch it anyway. Which is true.
I wasn't necessarily wrong, per se. I just didn't account for the player.
okay on mixmence so no more problem here. The problem is why does it isnt broken anymore as of now i never know. TBH i dont fear things like mence since i rely on stall mew to handle them. Stall mew(two) is a very good set
as many uber players know. In mew, he has lower speed but made it by having synchronize making him able to status even MM pokemon
BP mew with screens is well downright broken especialy considering mew's synchronize doesnt go to waste. But the addition of BD and SB pass means theres some more "powerful" passing option(but its undeniable that mew is more reliable) all we need is to beat MH and done. Yeah its very nice set
While nite isnt as bulky as i might say, but its not outright worse than mence or even ulga. offensive variants ulga without SE HP lose to nite for example even if ulga is +1 at the start but seeing they are different in playstyle its hard to decide. Also nite is one of the common pokemon in SS team so saying SS hinder nite MS is so stupid. Also MS nite is able to withstand Dm from specs latios. Homever Nite isnt as weak as gen 4. MS really make up his rather slow speed by giving insane bulk. In fact preserving MS by spinning rocks is worth it due to how easy nite can threaten team.
Chomp is..... chomp. TBH i post that one before i try SD haban CHomp. After that i must say chomp is another level higher than every dragon (much like heatran to the fires) he has dual stab AND a powerful one unlike flygon's depresingly weak attack(i mean outrage 3HKO mew ? cmon) he has no problem running D Claw since SD boost his attack at sky high level unlike mence who cant afford using DD twice to have Outrage's power(at least compared to chomp who easilly get 2 SD) and we all know how weak mence claw was(theres always bulky DD mence in which d claw become practical lol) and the fact that he actualy has Dual Stab in EQ which have power near that of Outrage allwing Chomp to use it as his main weapon. Also 102 speed, NOT OHKOED BY ICE MOVES, insane bulk make him probably the best dragon (for me... yeah)
The problem with latis is not his broken level(i do admit saying latis equal nite is crazy my bad) its how wrong many people use them. many people use latis like a OMG SPAM METEOR FTW as if they are dialga making them very easy to take down. Otherwise, from trick changing move and CM i think latis is okay this gen(tbh for they arent very broken but maybe its because most of my team is immune to latis) my favorite set is CM mono pulse latias though. After playing too much ubers i just cant stay apart from CM attacker with recovery(such as CM-o)
I wish people would would stop bringing up things like this.
Counters =/= Something is not uber. Nor does it stop things from being broken if it has silly over specific counters.
Unaware Clefable is inferior to Magic Guard/other Pokemon in like any other situation other than to deal with Inconsistent, its too over specialized, inferior and rather dead weight in any other situation (just like everything else people have brought up to deal with inconsistent..). Not only does it lose out on Seismic Toss, but Softboiled too. That and without Aroma you lose to Toxic from Octillery. :/
Anyway moving on, evasion IS banned. So i dont see why there is such a problem with removing Inconsistent's evasion boost. Its not at all like banning hax at all. Its like adding/building to an already existing clause. This bypasses the evasion clause and can let lesser players win. Even if i have moves to break the sub i can fucking miss. How is this fair ? Please enlighten me. Its my own fault if i use Fire Blast and miss, but people cant even stop this bs without stupid outclassed moves/Pokemon i.e Haze and Clefable. Kinda reminds me of people arguing against Garchomp last gen because "Cloyster can Icicle Spear and beat Yache Chomp" lol...
Well, there are those of us who have a problem with Evasion clause in the first place.
How is it fair that Jirachi can flinchhax my counter to death? How is it fair that I only get a 50% chance of attacking Machamp even when I switch in a resist? How is it fair that Technician Breloom can draw multiple 5-hit bullet seeds in a row?
Random chance is a fundamental part of the game. Another fundamental part of the game is manipulating that chance so that it's in your favor. If you think Inconsistent is actually broken, then by all means ban it for that reason. But don't come up with this crap about BAAWWW HAX BAWWWW.
They're the only things that counter key metagame threats, and they're outclassed? Seems the definition of "outclassed" has changed since I last checked.
EDIT: And since Haunter deleted my previous post for making a perfectly accurate statement of fact, I'll reiterate. Statistically, evasion is a rather poor stat boost.
And they're absolutely useless for everything else. One of the most common (and in my estimation, legitimate) arguments for how to define when something is broken is when it is such a problem that you have to run a 100% useless set that will never, ever be of much use in any other way solely to deal with one Pokemon/set/strategy. It isn't like the "use HP Fire to hit Scizor!" stuff, where you use a Pokemon that can still do a good job against a lot of the metagame and choose a coverage move that hits something you need a response to, and the move itself still has some occasional use against other things. If Inconsistent is so absurd that to not be at high risk of losing a random game to it with nothing you could have done otherwise, you have to give up an entire team slot that won't help with anything BUT Inconsistent, then it is broken, even going beyond the argument about it violating Evasion Clause. One tactic should not be so potent that it forces every player to ignore every other tactic to be able to handle it.
What could work is just something similar to the current evasion clause taht when they use the move it simply fails to raise evasion, so the same thing would happen when Inconsistent chooses an evasion boost, it simply doesn't raise evasion.
but that can't be done in game...
Wait, does evasion clause really still work like that? If so, yet another reason for its removal.
EDIT :
And to be fair alot of stuff cant technically be done ingame which is done and enforced on simulators. :x
That would be changing game mechanics, which we aren't doing. This is impossible to simulate on the cartridges, which actually are a major venue of play for many, therefore it is not a valid argument.
Either Inconsistent gets banned, or we deal with possible evasion increases.
I don't think removing the Evasion boost from Inconsistent is the proper way to go about it. As I'm sure it's been mentioned before, we haven't removed all traces of Evasion from the metagame in general, as we still have Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, Tangled Feet, Accupressure, etc. Yes, the distribution of these moves/abilities is poor overall, but it still stands to reason that we have no precedence for removing Evasion itself from the game, despite being a condition-relative constant or subject to a probability of increase, rather than guarantee. DT, Minimize, and the like had their effect canceled out via simulator because it was much more efficient than auto-forfeit (thus effectively 'banning' it).
It's also likely that removing the Evasion aspect would fail to stop the ability from being effective; after all, there's still the matter of getting free random +2 boosts every turn. I don't think the -1 balances this out in the slightest; you're still getting free boosts every turn. This would definitely be gamebreaking on any viable OU, and the only reason it's even being called into question is that it's distributed among generally less effective Pokemon.
All in all, there's a difference between banning moves you can choose to increase Evasion levels guaranteed, and neutering the effectiveness of a move/ability to fit our standards. Even if you cry 'Evasion Clause', no amount of red tape is going to mask what a move like that would really entail. Inconsistent can increase your Evasion, but it's not a primary effect nor is it at all guaranteed, and there's no way to ban just that Evasion increase without changing the game mechanics. If Inconsistent is broken for its capabilities, we can clause it the same way we did OHKO and Evasion.
It's also likely that removing the Evasion aspect would fail to stop the ability from being effective; after all, there's still the matter of getting free random +2 boosts every turn. I don't think the -1 balances this out in the slightest; you're still getting free boosts every turn. This would definitely be gamebreaking on any viable OU, and the only reason it's even being called into question is that it's distributed among generally less effective Pokemon.
All in all, there's a difference between banning moves you can choose to increase Evasion levels guaranteed, and neutering the effectiveness of a move/ability to fit our standards. Even if you cry 'Evasion Clause', no amount of red tape is going to mask what a move like that would really entail. Inconsistent can increase your Evasion, but it's not a primary effect nor is it at all guaranteed, and there's no way to ban just that Evasion increase without changing the game mechanics. If Inconsistent is broken for its capabilities, we can clause it the same way we did OHKO and Evasion.
Removing Evasion from Inconsistent is not the way to because:
1) It is unimplementable in game. We try very hard to follow in-game mechanics as much as possible.
2) Even without Evasion, Inconsistent is still giving you a net boost every turn without you doing anything, which would still be annoying as hell. The end result would still be someone (and I quote myself) "just clicking a button and hoping for the best", which is not way we want our competitive Pokemon to end up.
1) It is unimplementable in game. We try very hard to follow in-game mechanics as much as possible.
2) Even without Evasion, Inconsistent is still giving you a net boost every turn without you doing anything, which would still be annoying as hell. The end result would still be someone (and I quote myself) "just clicking a button and hoping for the best", which is not way we want our competitive Pokemon to end up.
how do i prove i got this rank because im close and i would like to know? thanks
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