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You don't know that. If you use this assumption in arguments about the stability of the metagame we play in, then you aren't talking about the same metagame.
Kabutops: Torterra can not switch in on Swords Dance (or Nattorei for that matter) as Swords Dance Kabutops would clobber them with boosted Waterfall and Low Kick. Roopushin NEEDS Guts activated for without +1, only does 60%. Again, I guess that is why it carries Flame Orb although it makes it die much faster. Voltlos can Thunderwave it to make it useless but without Focus Sash would die. Tornelos can Tail Wind but still die without Focus Sash. Fine then, those are acceptable. Golduck murders Kabutops yes but you're using a freaking Scarf Duck. Swords Dance Stone Edge koes Toxicroaks weak defenses even with Resistance and Rock Slide 2 hit koes while unboosted Sucker Punch does less than half. Drought Ninetails would have a lot of Guts switching in on a Rock/Water hoping it doesn't get hit by Rock Slide. Scarf Tyranitar can't ko without Hidden Power Grass or something stupid while Waterfall still ohkoes even without Rain or Dance. Poliwrath I take.
Ludicolo: Parasect has to watch out for Icebeam since that would murder it, otherwise fine. Nattorei has to watch out for Focus Blast. Rotom for Icebeam. Rankurusu for 2 hit koing Surf. Voltlos and Tornelos are much the same except need Focus Sash and Gale would kill Ludicolo.
Blissey has to watch out for nothing. SubSeed? Voltlos breaks the sub and Taunts.
Nattorei: Rest Talk Dragon Dance Kingdra (rarely used but could work) if it doesn't boost it's stats. Empoleon is lesser used but again, one of the only things for Kingdra (unless it chooses Hp Electric).
Nattorei is a good check to rain teams but is nowhere a be-all and end all. Firstly, it gets 3HKOed by Choice Specs Kingdra using Hydro Pump, so you can only use the thing once. Kabutops OHKOs with Low Kick, while others like Ludicolo will do a truck-ton with Focus Blast. Tail Glow Manaphy can 2HKOs in the rain with Surf, while Calm Mind Manaphy can theoretically beat Nattorei by Resting until Power Whip misses, Calm Mind up and repeat the process. At the very least, if crits do not occur, the least thing Manaphy can do is to stall Nattorei out of Power Whips (Rest has the same PP as Power Whip).
Kabutops only OHKO's with Low Kick at +2. Good luck setting up in the face of Power Whip or insert move here from Pokemon "x". Ludicolo gets TWaved since it doesn't OHKO as does Kingdra. Nattorei only needs one turn alive against each of them to make them useless.
Kabutops only OHKO's with Low Kick at +2. Good luck setting up in the face of Power Whip or insert move here from Pokemon "x". Ludicolo gets TWaved since it doesn't OHKO as does Kingdra. Nattorei only needs one turn alive against each of them to make them useless.
You don't know that. If you use this assumption in arguments about the stability of the metagame we play in, then you aren't talking about the same metagame.
Kabutops used Swords Dance.
Opposing Pokemon used Earthquake.
Kabutops fainted because he's a little bitch.
Good luck finding room to set-up.
Blissey has to watch out for nothing. SubSeed? Voltlos breaks the sub and Taunts.
RestTalkDD Kingdra? Burungeru says hi. A gimmick at best, and even then isn't good.
Burungeru couldn't do anything to RestTalk Kingdra without Taunt, what are you talking about? Unless all Burungeru's run Taunt, they would lose. Without investement, Evil Eye wouldn't 3 hit ko either (which gets doubled from Kingdra's rest status). Unless Burungeru is like running Max special attack (lol wtf?), it can't 3 hit ko Kingdra with EVIL EYE. Night Shade doesn't 3 hit ko. Nattorei needs Swords Dance/Curse to win that round and at the very least could be pp stalled out of the Whip and made open prey to every other water. And RestTalk Kingdra is Rest/Sleep Talk/Dragon Dance/Outrage, not Waterfall. Burungeru would wall it if it was Waterfall.
Voltlos would lose 60% of his health taking the Ludicolo's sub out in rain and with Swift Swim is faster and could 2 hit ko with Surf (or just 2 hit ko and run Rain Dish for even more annoying fun).
Also, you're making yourself sound stupid. I don't want to be mean, but you are. Gyrados switching in on Kabutops, Forretress walling Kingdra (in RAIN!), having the thing quoted and getting it wrong. I said TORTERRA CAN NOT SWITCH IN ON KABUTOPS SWORDS DANCE. They hypothetical Torterra (who would get clobbered by all the rain special attackers with Icebeam) would not have been facing Kabutops in the first place. Kabutops scares something out, Swords Dances. Torterra comes in. Now he faces +2 Life Orb Stab Rain Boosted WATERFALL which hits NEUTRAL. TORTERRA WOULD DIE UNLESS IT WAS MAX HP/DEF IMPISH AND EVEN THEN HAS A 1 in 3 of SURVIVING PLUS IT HAS TO WORRY ABOUT WATERFALL FLINCH SHOULD IT SURVIVE.
I think it is safe to assume things like Shaymin and Darkrai will be pretty much voted Uber along with Inconsistent. Probably Manaphy and Deoxys as well. Assuming Shaymin-S does stay...Qwilfish uses Poison Jab! Shaymin-S dies a horrible death!
Yes. Nattorei loses if it switches in on Swords Dance. Kabutops loses if it has to switch in on Nattorei (unless Power Whip has a lucky miss for you in which case laugh and do the happy dance as you kill it.).
Kabutops only OHKO's with Low Kick at +2. Good luck setting up in the face of Power Whip or insert move here from Pokemon "x". Ludicolo gets TWaved since it doesn't OHKO as does Kingdra. Nattorei only needs one turn alive against each of them to make them useless
Sacrificing Ludicolo for the greater good wouldn't matter in that case if you got to murder Nattorei. Nattorei only 2 hit koes with Power Whip in which case it has 3 chances to Focus Blast you into oblivion (4 if Nattorei misses or more if Nattorei is having a horrible day with 85% accuracy). Life Orb Focus Blast 2 hit koes Nattorei. If you get 2, Nattorei's dead and while you lose Ludicolo, you don't really care as you have more Swift Swimmers where he came from. I mean you still have Kingdra, Kabutops, Gorebyss/Omastar...and not all teams exactly have Blissey/Chansey now. In 4th gen, it was almost a requirement to have Blissey on an OU team. Now it's... (but it still is one of the best special walls against the special defense stat but once Kerudio Mystery Sword comes out...) still good but not godly like before. It is a liability against physically offensive teams. But it still is the best Wish Passer with the new change (him, Mamanbou, and Vaporeon). As well as in your face Thunderwave/Toxic Seismic Toss and occasional Icebeam.
on the discussion about rain dance teams i have to say that from my experience they are quite manageable...the only real broken pokemon inside rain is manaphy which i think should be nominated as uber...to counter rain based teams i have:a nattorei,which walls most rain sweepers and i didn't even put him in my team to counter rain purposely so his general role in the team is very important(the set is power whip,leech seed,protect,spikes),a bulky tyranitar lead with 252 evs in hp that can change the weather and hit politoed pretty hard,and vaporeon with roar that phazes any boosting rain sweeper i can think off except sd ludicolo and stacks up spike and sr damage that hinders the rd offensive teams,and finally provides nice healing to my nattorei and t-tar so they can continue doing their business...i have 2 other teams that also dont have any serious rain weakness and i am not the best player out there so i think that if i can handle rain offense with 3 random teams i made without even building them with a lot of concern about rain anyone can with little effort...i think that people are just overreacting cause they dont want to accept the new weather-based metagame which for good or not is now staple and i think that it will continue to be...
Sun has sweepers too (Charizard, Venasaur, Mebjuka, Hidiharuma, Heatran, Moltres, Tangrowth, Exeggutor, Shiftry...) and they will smack you hard. Choice Scarf Charizard (or Specs especially) does tons of damage with stab Fire Blast and you better have a heat absorber to take moves like that. And they can carry their own Sunny Days as well (lol, go Sunny Charizard set right as Tyranitar pops out and Solar Beam them, lol. Same for Politoad switch back in).
Never said sun didn't have sweepers.
Unless Charizard has hidden power or something, hes just going to be kissing T-tar's ass. Solarbeam is no longer instant as soon as Tyranitar switches in, and it's base power is reduced. Tyrannitar can switch in to anyone silly enough to use solarbeam in a weather metagame, Dragon dance or do whatever the hell he wants, and then with his special defense boost, take the 60 base power hit, and smack the opposition. Politoed switches in to special based Charizard without a care in the world, Tyrannitar as well. Moltres is screwed over by SR, taking the 50% switching in while like all fire pokemon being limited to their natural speed, no chlorophyll boost. Quite counterable. While fire pokemon hit like trucks, naturally they will as just as water pokemon in Rain, SD gives them double stab.
You don't want to be carrying Politoad or Ninetails if you're not running their weather.
People forget that infinite sun and rain are still useful outside of chlorophyll/swift swim use. When infinite sun is giving Salamence Stab on fire blast for instance, and making him 4x resist water as well. Both weathers are useful. To say the effects are only useful to rain teams and sun teams is to ignore that sand's primary boost is special defense, and only applies to rocks.
Fire/Water Resists are useful.
At least Abomasnow has utility with Subseed and Blizzard, walling waters, etc as well as stealing their Leftovers. Tyranitar is already pretty much viable on every team that doesn't care about sand and isn't a weather team. Hippowdon is less used but it still is a really bulky physical wall. Having to waste a Pokemon slot to use a useless Ninetails/Politoad (that might only help the opponent if they carry the same weather) is not exactly good. But even Politoad is better than Ninetails by a lot (except using Politoad only helps one of the best weathers, lol) with Double Stab Hydro Pump while Ninetails could barely do anything but status and maybe attack with a Nasty Plot boost.
Politoed isn't dead weight. He's spD bulk and because of the rain he brings in he also hits hard granted your using a water move. To call politoed dead weight when he can hold his own on a team with that special bulk and STAB on one of the best offensive types.
Ninetales is also in a similar boat but without that defense, he's really the frailest of all the inducers. Ninetails would be harder to fit on your average team but Politoed? He's not dead weight. Ninetales will find a niche.
And they can STILL carry their weather move and perma weather. You would need multiple users of weather moves, survive their attacks (unless you're using Mischievious Heart but you still have to survive normal) and use a turn to set it up...which can always be reversed by their own weather move/inducer. Even after their inducer is dead, you have to beware of surprise weather user if their weather is gone, getting their boosts back. Likely you'll have been weakened, trying to change the weather and kill the inducer and all of a sudden they change it back, get power/speed and sweep the remainder/leave you almost nothing by the time it ends.
Swift Swim ABUSES Drizzle like none other.You either have to ban the speed ability abusers (neuter about every good water Pokemon in rain) or the weather.
See here is the problem with thinking like this, though it may very well be true.
Ban drizzle destroy rain stall, and the efficiency of using rain with a balanced team like you would sandstorm in gen IV, but bring down Swift swimmers constant speed, and a damp rock user and Rain dance onto the team.
Ban Swift swim, heavily reduce the sweeping power of Rain offence. Many Rain sweepers will find it incredibly difficult to exist without say trick room or focus sash, and even then many have difficulty switching in (How were they switching in gen IV RD though?)
And playing a permanent weather game in OU is not exactly particularly attractive (if you want weather, the uber legendaries are always fun except that the weather thing is more balanced since both sun/rain or neither are all fairly viable). Banning the auto-weather and using the moves Rain Dance/Sunny Day makes them less broken, more strategic and strategies to set it up, and Sunny Day actually has a purpose for it with 8 turns of sun.
Battles between opposing weather have always been strategic as opposing sides try to out maneuver the other to protect their weather inducer while simultaneously trying to keep their weather up.
Mischievious Heart makes it all the better. Banning Auto-Sand as well is an interesting concept since it is what breaks Doryuzu (the thing is weak without permanent sand and much more manageable. But in Sand, he forces one to carry priority and if there are no more counters to him, then he'll beat you. And Skarmory doesn't work on Life Orb Doryuzu if it flinches you. It does massive damage and it could potentially 2 hit ko).
Tyranitar doesn't REALLY need it (it just helps a heck of a lot). Garchomp works in and out, Landlos, etc.
It's not about what "we" apparently need. It never was. Things are removed because they aren't competitive or are broken, not because you don't need them.
Banning weather (auto abilities) altogether opens up for other things (cause you can't ban one weather as another will take it's place and they're all broken and dominating). Just because it wasn't broken when used (everywhere) before doesn't mean it isn't now. Most of the Swift Swimmers are really nothing without auto rain (and are much easier with only 5-8 turns but still powerful) or most of the Chlorophyllers (except Venasaur who has always been a good pokemon and Tangrowth who would rather have Regeneration outside of sun). Trick Room, Gravity, etc have 5 turns. And all the weather inducers have alternative abilities that might be somewhat useful (meh) but they won't be insta-banned for not having a second ability. Tyranitar would be as good as he always had been (with less special defense) and so would Hippowdon who actually might be helpful as a wall for NOT setting up sand and for being pretty bulky.
/eyeroll.
Problem with the whole thing is it keeps talking about swift swimmers, chlorophyll, sand throw, the things everyones complaining about being broken. So your idealogy is that the weather must be banned, and any other strategy that came with it would also be destroyed or neutered.
As long as Swift swimmers, Chlorophyll & sand throw can work under a 8 turn time limit it's cool, but if things like weather stall are destroyed "well that doesn't matter". Just a bias to things that we've always had, weather offence and not caring about the things we've gained.
Slimman
You say that there would be slow pokemon who could use their 1.5x boost to heavily damage other pokemon. Let's look at Choice Band Snorlax. It's slow, has a 1.5x boost, and a naturally high attack. But is it viable among the top. Not really.
All these pokemon with water moves are getting that 1.5x boost to their water move without being restricted, letting them get KO's they wouldn't of gotten before, double stab or not. Swamperts hitting harder in rain, Milotic, hidden power water users, weather ball users. While Swift swim is obviously amazing, Hydropump doesn't deal less damage without swift swim it's not a boost. The point is that regardless, Rain compliments offensive because it gives a damage boost to water moves, manipulating this bonus keeps rain offense in the game even after Swift swim.
You say that rain offense is simply altered. This is, in fact, not true. The essence of rain offense is gone. What's left doesn't do much at all. You foresee us dragging around the corpse of rain offense, and you think that means it's alive.
For sure you could definitely say this. That rain offense isn't rain offense without swift swim, and that just because of the damage boosts existence doesn't mean it's alive. It depends on what you believe rain scribe is in it's fundamentals "Sweeping with swift swim in effect" or "Sweeping while in rain". Sweeping with swift swim in effect, obviously means that you are in rain, swift swim isn't in effect without rain, if thats how you feel then, rain offense is completely obliterated. If you feel it's using the rain to sweep, then it still technically exists separately from swift swim.
The hyper offense tactics while under rain basically disappear because their isn't swift swim to make them always attacking before the defense.
However it is these hyper offense tactics while under infinite rain that are under scrutiny to begin with.
Are you high? 25 Fire pokemon learn Sunny Day. 27 if you include Ho-oH and Reshiram. And I didn't say that water types were weak in rain. I did say that when their speeds are not increased they lose the ability to effectively sweep as in rain offense.
That was actually a horrendous typo that I made. I mean no Fire pokemon learn Chlorophyll, my mind must of been elsewhere when typing that. The point being that Fire pokemon are able to sweep despite the lack of a speed boosting ability, under a very similar situation.
And yes, Fire pokemon are frail. The reason that sun teams even exist at all is because they have Grass and Fire pokemon. Rain teams lack this variety. By taking away Swift Swim, you make them worse than sun. Sun is so rare already, rain offense will be non-existant.
I would say that simply being a water pokemon is a significant benefit. A typing that typically possess both water and stab, against Sunny day teams for instance they typically have an advantage, even outside of swift swim. Water pokemon may be weak to grass but possess ice.
Even outside of RD vs SD, the defensive and offensive typing of water is a significant boon, as well as the various typing between waters.
Fire pokemon don't keep going purely because of sun. They are common and sun is not. They keep going because they have uses other than just on sun teams. Most Swift Swimmers do not have another use.
Empoleon is relevant to the subject of rain offense. Set up sweeper going off base 118 attack that can abuse the rain's benefits.
But by banning Swift Swim, rain offense becomes completely ineffective, unlike sun. It becomes unviable, while sun is viable.
By banning Drizzle, you destroy rain stall. It becomes completely unviable.
--
So what's the difference? Banning Drizzle nerfs fewer pokemon and eliminates the need to ban Manphy.
Banning Swift Swim nerfs more pokemon and retains the need to ban Manaphy.
--
By using non-water pokemon, you negate the rain boost. It is a 1.5x boost, which is equivalent to STAB. Using a non-water pokemon is like using water, but not having rain.
--
What using non-water pokemon means is that you lack the speed boost AND the crazy power. In short, you would only use those for defense. There's no reason to try to do rain offense without water types.
To preserve my sanity trying (poorly) to hit everything.
Yes something is lost on both sides. It is not simply an amount of greater number on Swift swims side + manaphy. Manaphy has been talked about banning even after Drizzles removal. Manaphy is not necessarily "saved".
Again there are the moves, and pokemon that are also manipulating rain, the loss of drizzle is not just "These Rain Abilities, Rain Stall, Etc" vs "Numerous Swift Swim Pokemon" and choosing between the two, depend on what everybody likes best. Theres a lot that benefits from infinite rain outside of the abilities that activate in rain.
Naturally you can believe I'm wrong, I'm not positive that banning swift swim is a good option either. However naturally as an alternative it should be considered if infinite rain is deemed overpowered.
It would be circular to continue with "We lose this without drizzle, but lose this without swift swim"
Limiting rain offense to bulky offense for the most part or removing rain stall, I would think in the grand scheme the loss of a play style is simply put the loss of a play style. A minimal difference in term's of abusers such as a difference between 17 and 18 or 17 and 20, shouldn't be the sole factor between anti-drizzle or anti-swim.
If anything looking at it I feel that neither is a particularly better option, however part of the suspect tests is playing without something and seeing how things are. However considering the system, swift swim likely won't get tested anyways. With rain stall being the least popular of the two options, it's loss will go for the most part unnoticed, and Drizzle if it comes down to it would most likely be the one lost. Not s because of a small difference like 17-18/19/20, but with few likely experiencing or caring for rain stall, it is an after-thought if a thought at all when voting time comes.
My view (though I think since it took me so damn long to write, my views changed after writing it...but too much effort to go back into it)
-------------------------------------------------
It is one thing to say.
"There is a problem with the sweeping power in rain, and we deem it broken, and here are all the possible solutions"
It is another thing to say "There is a problem with the sweeping power in rain...just remove rain."
You can easily replace the below terms with the words relating to that weather/ability.
You could ban drizzle
You could ban swift swim
You could ban specific pokemon.
You could carry a weather move that does not threaten your team
You could carry a weather pokemon to counteract.
There may be possibilities that I've overlooked as well.
Banning Drizzle.
Swift Swim is limited to rain dance use
Rain dance lasts 8 turns maximum.
Rain dance is subject to flinch and paralysis stun.
Rain dance is subject to encore and taunt.
Rain Stall is destroyed/neutered.
Rain being used to aid balanced teams becomes difficult.
Thunder and Hurricane suffer
Moonlight,morning sun and synthesis aren't always gimped.
Castform is not always in water form
Weatherball is a constant 100 BP special water move.
You may think that simply because many of those are present with RD but they're not constant so "big deal". The constant rain, makes things dependable. When you know rain will more than likely always be up unless another inducer comes or your opponent carries opposing weather (or one of the cloud nine pokemon), you build your team knowing this consistency. Weatherball stops being usually a 100 BP water move, and always a 100 BP move, these moves can then be depended on for coverage. Without the rain it's then a problem that well "My roserade had water coverage but rain just ended, so now it can't 2hko/ohko this guy, and is going to die, because it doesnt have the coverage". Thunder working then becomes a matter of luck, suddenly Thunder misses the next turn rain went down, and the opponent wins only because a 30% chance to miss activated. It's not just pokemon with abilities that are only in affect in their respective weather that are affected by banning their perma weather.
Rain stall is heavily affected by the removal of Drizzle. Attempt hail stall without auto hail simply through using the move. Do the weather stalls without auto weather. Use their respective weather moves, report the efficiency of it. Perhaps the loss of rain stall is blown out of proportion, it's completely viable and works fine without drizzle, is that an argument anti-drizzle is making?
Ban Swift swim
38 pokemon (not all Fully evolved) would lose the ability
18 Fully evolved pokemon would lose it.
Glass cannon swift swimmers, cannot take hits
Mundane speeds unless stat boosted.
Does not affect pokemon without that ability
Rain's inherit affects remain untouched
Rain is constant, and strategies acknowledging that consistency remain
Rain stall remains
Infinite rain, constantly reduces fire damage
Infinite rain, constantly increases water damage.
If you use teams in rain other than swift swimmers your not affected as rain remains. Many pokemon benefit when rain is infinite. Fire resistant pokemon are now 4x resistant, fire weak pokemon are now only 2x or take neutral damage. Pokemon with Thunder & Hurricane can use those moves knowing they have now have consistently awesome accuracy. There not set up and then have awesome accuracy moves anymore. Water pokemon are just naturally stronger,when surf does 1.5x more damage than normal, honestly to think rain offense disappears is a stretch.
The damage of rain offense doesn't disappear, 1.5x water damage with swift swim and 1.5x water damage without swift swim are the same thing.
The issue of losing swift swim isn't damage but speed, naturally everyone knows that. Without Swift swim, the Rain offense game changes drastically. Switch in's have to be very well done for certain pokemon, and even then staying in or statting up remains incredibly difficult for them.
When Omastar is weak to ground,electric,fighting and grass, the 75/125/70 defenses don't necessarily preserve it. Rain pokemon are not necessarily used to having to do any speed boosting for efficiency. It's definitely a hard hit to pokemon that possess swift swim.
Lets look at it though.
Kingdra has many resistances, and the base stats good enough to let it come in and take 2, 3 hits or so. Even current Kingdra when it does get hit, it takes more than one hit unless it's the dragon weakness. If Drizzles banned, Rain dance has to be set up, Kingdra would likely carry it's own RD. If Swift swim is banned but rain is infinite? Instead of carrying rain dance, it carries agility, dragon dance, choice scarf, even then it's bulky and can trade a couple hits likely causing an OHKO with it's powerful hydro pump.Kingdra isn't down and out by any stretch. Floatzel, very similar, 115 base Speed, he was never slow to begin with, and would still out speed many threats. Bulk Up, agility, he too can still sweep.
Gorebyss can definitely survive, if Gorebyss can spare a turn to Shellbreak now, she can spare it later. Rain doesn't improve defense, if shes not getting OHKO'd now that doesn't change without swift swim. However thats Shellbreak Gorebyss, the typical Gorebyss gets hit hard since it's speed is terrible. Empoleon can sweep with agility too.
However what the ban of swift swim would hurt the most is UU swift swimmers. Politoed will more than likely stay OU as long as it has drizzle, however if swift swim is banned, UU pokemon who have nothing to do with drizzle will also be affected. Having to set up their own rain...and then what agility boost, or whatever it takes for them to get in the game? That's hard. Rain could quite likely vanish from UU completely. Rain is powerful even if they don't set up. Milotic (even now) gets double stab in rain, Swampert, Gastrodon, Blastoise. These pokemon all start hitting harder, and they are tank pokemon to begin with. Bulky waters who still can 2hk and 0hko pokemon in rain, not affected by a loss of swift swim. Sweepers who are not water type but have water attacks still benefit. Hydro Pump Salamence, Surf Latios. Being offensive in rain is changed from what it is now but is not destroyed in OU, if swift swim is banned, rain in UU however...
Banning specific pokemon
Do we ban things based on their performance in weather?
In Swift swimmers case, there are 18 of them, many replacements.
Would banning that pokemon rectify the situation if Infinite rain is broken.
Carry a weather move
Weather moves take up a slot that could be used for something else
Weather moves are useless if your opposition uses that weather.
Acknowledges that weather is a huge part of the metagame
Weathers used can compliment the team
The weather will die in 5/8 turns allowing for normal weather.
Severely drops the power of many weather teams.
Apparently not packing counters to what is the metagame or at least a large part of it is unacceptable. That would be silly of me to say of course, because people are packing counters, though they are not typically weather moves. Is being forced to carry a weather move overcentralizing? Weather is not one specific team, it's composed of different pokemon and one rain team does not have to be identical to another for instance. Using a weather move is not for one specific monster, or generally for one specific team or weather. Bringing a weather move is considering the general threat of weather. Hail being useless when running into a hail team is similar to surf being useless against a water absorber, unfortunate but it's not the end. Using weather also can help teams do more than just oppose weather. Using sun for instance when faced with Burungeru helps reduce it's boil over's damage output, if cresselia is moonlighting you can weaken that. If your about to pull off a sweep with Salamence next turn maybe you want to set him up with stab fire blasts. Even then it's not your only option. You already know if you've got MH paralyze or trick room you can severely hamper speed based weather teams, if those are what you consider the hugest threats.
Carrying a weather pokemon
Carrying a T-tar or Hippowdon is not unusual to anyone.
Politoed isn't dead weight anymore, it can hit hard in rain.
Ninetales....can be useful to standard teams...
Creates what I feel is an interesting dynamic of "protect the weather"
-------------------------------------------
Oh and to the other guys talking about counters.
Cotten guard MH erufuun could probably counter or check Kabutops though.
Cotten guard, Encore, energy ball, and one other move.
Since rain only boosts it's waterfall use priority CG to get +3 defense, then energy ball next turn. If it sword dance encore it. Though it can aqua jet as well, but erufuun may survive that too, and if it does aqua jet to get through the encore. You have him locked in on his weakest move and can try to deal with him knowing that.
Erufuun would still be useful out of rain anyways since it has encore and that fourth move count be leech seed or whatever you want.
on the discussion about rain dance teams i have to say that from my experience they are quite manageable...the only real broken pokemon inside rain is manaphy which i think should be nominated as uber...to counter rain based teams i have:a nattorei,which walls most rain sweepers and i didn't even put him in my team to counter rain purposely so his general role in the team is very important(the set is power whip,leech seed,protect,spikes),a bulky tyranitar lead with 252 evs in hp that can change the weather and hit politoed pretty hard,and vaporeon with roar that phazes any boosting rain sweeper i can think off except sd ludicolo and stacks up spike and sr damage that hinders the rd offensive teams,and finally provides nice healing to my nattorei and t-tar so they can continue doing their business...i have 2 other teams that also dont have any serious rain weakness and i am not the best player out there so i think that if i can handle rain offense with 3 random teams i made without even building them with a lot of concern about rain anyone can with little effort...i think that people are just overreacting cause they dont want to accept the new weather-based metagame which for good or not is now staple and i think that it will continue to be...
Good for you! I'd be worried about Life Orb Ludicolo (Rain Dance, Surf, Focus Blast/Icebeam, Giga Drain) should it appear because he is pretty good, able to 2 hit ko Natt, do massive damage to Vaporeon with Giga Drain (and restore Spikes and Life Orb damage and extra with Vaporeons high hp), change weather in Tyranitar's face and/or Surf/Focus Blast him into oblivion. If you're using Max hp, no Special defense Tyranitar, its Focus Blast ohkoes in Sand and if special defensive, 2 hit ko with it followed by Surf.
But that you haven't had any trouble with it so far is pretty awesome. (What are you're remaining pokes?). Also, the BL ubers are kind of ruling right now and most don't seem to be using a Rain team anyways since the BL ubers do keep the weather in check for the most part except maybe BL uber Manaphy who is broken and going to be banned along with the others. But once they're gone, it is likely weather will completely take over for good or worse (unless weather auto-inducing abilities are banned which they probably should) that is more than Sand with Rain/Sun/and some Hail to stop the others.
Burungeru couldn't do anything to RestTalk Kingdra without Taunt, what are you talking about? Unless all Burungeru's run Taunt, they would lose. Without investement, Evil Eye wouldn't 3 hit ko either (which gets doubled from Kingdra's rest status). Unless Burungeru is like running Max special attack (lol wtf?), it can't 3 hit ko Kingdra with EVIL EYE. Night Shade doesn't 3 hit ko. Nattorei needs Swords Dance/Curse to win that round and at the very least could be pp stalled out of the Whip and made open prey to every other water. And RestTalk Kingdra is Rest/Sleep Talk/Dragon Dance/Outrage, not Waterfall. Burungeru would wall it if it was Waterfall.
Oh, my mistake, I would assume that you wouldn't be using his subpar STAB when in the Rain, but I guessed wrong. So instead, you get walled by Wish Jirachi, Leech Seed Protect Nattorei, and become set-up bait for Offensive Steels.
Voltlos would lose 60% of his health taking the Ludicolo's sub out in rain and with Swift Swim is faster and could 2 hit ko with Surf (or just 2 hit ko and run Rain Dish for even more annoying fun).
To be frank I wasn't at all thinking. Because really, these things are so completely buttraped by Nattorei, that I don't use anything else anymore, so I'm not current on what these Pokemon can't touch. Here let me rephrase, For DD Kingdra, Forretress and Burungeru laugh at it. Burungeru takes Waterfalls e'erday o' his life. And Forretress comes in on Outrage saying but a simple "Derp". Gyarados was more of a check to the SD Ludicolo that I somehow equated to Kabutops in my brain. But Kabutops is so terribly squishy that most any super-effective move that hits him will do enough to OHKO or at least severely cripple.
Meanwhile, you're the genius coming up with RestTalk DDOutrage Kingdra for rains teams as a way to beat Nattorei one on one. A pinnacle of Brilliance. Also
I said TORTERRA CAN NOT SWITCH IN ON KABUTOPS SWORDS DANCE.They hypothetical Torterra (who would get clobbered by all the rain special attackers with Icebeam) would not have been facing Kabutops in the first place. Kabutops scares something out, Swords Dances. Torterra comes in. Now he faces +2 Life Orb Stab Rain Boosted WATERFALL which hits NEUTRAL. TORTERRA WOULD DIE UNLESS IT WAS MAX HP/DEF IMPISH AND EVEN THEN HAS A 1 in 3 of SURVIVING PLUS IT HAS TO WORRY ABOUT WATERFALL FLINCH SHOULD IT SURVIVE.
I think it is safe to assume things like Shaymin and Darkrai will be pretty much voted Uber along with Inconsistent. Probably Manaphy and Deoxys as well. Assuming Shaymin-S does stay...Qwilfish uses Poison Jab! Shaymin-S dies a horrible death!
No, it's not safe to make that assumption, because we don't know whether Rain is broken in that metagame yet. Or if that Metagame will exist at all. And we especially shouldn't ban drizzle because of a meta with Manaphy in it.
Also Qwilfish uses Poison Jab on the Nattorei I just switched in on your rain team because Nattorei shits on rain. It doesn't affect him. Qwilfish proceeds to look stupid for pretending that he can be important.
Nattorei needs Swords Dance/Curse to win that round and at the very least could be pp stalled out of the Whip and made open prey to every other water. And RestTalk Kingdra is Rest/Sleep Talk/Dragon Dance/Outrage, not Waterfall. Burungeru would wall it if it was Waterfall.
OH LAWL my hide tabs aren't working oh well. my responses are in there....if you wish to drop into it
Fluffy Otter
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Never said sun didn't have sweepers.
Unless Charizard has hidden power or something, hes just going to be kissing T-tar's ass. Solarbeam is no longer instant as soon as Tyranitar switches in, and it's base power is reduced. Tyrannitar can switch in to anyone silly enough to use solarbeam in a weather metagame, Dragon dance or do whatever the hell he wants, and then with his special defense boost, take the 60 base power hit, and smack the opposition. Politoed switches in to special based Charizard without a care in the world, Tyrannitar as well. Moltres is screwed over by SR, taking the 50% switching in while like all fire pokemon being limited to their natural speed, no chlorophyll boost. Quite counterable. While fire pokemon hit like trucks, naturally they will as just as water pokemon in Rain, SD gives them double stab.
People forget that infinite sun and rain are still useful outside of chlorophyll/swift swim use. When infinite sun is giving Salamence Stab on fire blast for instance, and making him 4x resist water as well. Both weathers are useful. To say the effects are only useful to rain teams and sun teams is to ignore that sand's primary boost is special defense, and only applies to rocks.
Fire/Water Resists are useful.
Politoed isn't dead weight. He's spD bulk and because of the rain he brings in he also hits hard granted your using a water move. To call politoed dead weight when he can hold his own on a team with that special bulk and STAB on one of the best offensive types.
Ninetales is also in a similar boat but without that defense, he's really the frailest of all the inducers. Ninetails would be harder to fit on your average team but Politoed? He's not dead weight. Ninetales will find a niche.
no idea what you just said.
See here is the problem with thinking like this, though it may very well be true.
Ban drizzle destroy rain stall, and the efficiency of using rain with a balanced team like you would sandstorm in gen IV, but bring down Swift swimmers constant speed, and a damp rock user and Rain dance onto the team.
Ban Swift swim, heavily reduce the sweeping power of Rain offence. Many Rain sweepers will find it incredibly difficult to exist without say trick room or focus sash, and even then many have difficulty switching in (How were they switching in gen IV RD though?)
Battles between opposing weather have always been strategic as opposing sides try to out maneuver the other to protect their weather inducer while simultaneously trying to keep their weather up.
Losing to something because you don't have counters for it doesn't mean its broken.
It's not about what "we" apparently need. It never was. Things are removed because they aren't competitive or are broken, not because you don't need them.
/eyeroll.
Problem with the whole thing is it keeps talking about swift swimmers, chlorophyll, sand throw, the things everyones complaining about being broken. So your idealogy is that the weather must be banned, and any other strategy that came with it would also be destroyed or neutered.
As long as Swift swimmers, Chlorophyll & sand throw can work under a 8 turn time limit it's cool, but if things like weather stall are destroyed "well that doesn't matter". Just a bias to things that we've always had, weather offence and not caring about the things we've gained.
Slimman
-_- fucking hide tab
All these pokemon with water moves are getting that 1.5x boost to their water move without being restricted, letting them get KO's they wouldn't of gotten before, double stab or not. Swamperts hitting harder in rain, Milotic, hidden power water users, weather ball users. While Swift swim is obviously amazing, Hydropump doesn't deal less damage without swift swim it's not a boost. The point is that regardless, Rain compliments offensive because it gives a damage boost to water moves, manipulating this bonus keeps rain offense in the game even after Swift swim.
For sure you could definitely say this. That rain offense isn't rain offense without swift swim, and that just because of the damage boosts existence doesn't mean it's alive. It depends on what you believe rain scribe is in it's fundamentals "Sweeping with swift swim in effect" or "Sweeping while in rain". Sweeping with swift swim in effect, obviously means that you are in rain, swift swim isn't in effect without rain, if thats how you feel then, rain offense is completely obliterated. If you feel it's using the rain to sweep, then it still technically exists separately from swift swim.
The hyper offense tactics while under rain basically disappear because their isn't swift swim to make them always attacking before the defense.
However it is these hyper offense tactics while under infinite rain that are under scrutiny to begin with.
That was actually a horrendous typo that I made. I mean no Fire pokemon learn Chlorophyll, my mind must of been elsewhere when typing that. The point being that Fire pokemon are able to sweep despite the lack of a speed boosting ability, under a very similar situation.
I would say that simply being a water pokemon is a significant benefit. A typing that typically possess both water and stab, against Sunny day teams for instance they typically have an advantage, even outside of swift swim. Water pokemon may be weak to grass but possess ice.
Even outside of RD vs SD, the defensive and offensive typing of water is a significant boon, as well as the various typing between waters.
Most but not all, keeping every pokemon viable was never the goal, but removing variety I would think goes against the competitive nature of a
game.
Empoleon is relevant to the subject of rain offense. Set up sweeper going off base 118 attack that can abuse the rain's benefits.
To preserve my sanity trying (poorly) to hit everything.
Yes something is lost on both sides. It is not simply an amount of greater number on Swift swims side + manaphy. Manaphy has been talked about banning even after Drizzles removal. Manaphy is not necessarily "saved".
Again there are the moves, and pokemon that are also manipulating rain, the loss of drizzle is not just "These Rain Abilities, Rain Stall, Etc" vs "Numerous Swift Swim Pokemon" and choosing between the two, depend on what everybody likes best. Theres a lot that benefits from infinite rain outside of the abilities that activate in rain.
Naturally you can believe I'm wrong, I'm not positive that banning swift swim is a good option either. However naturally as an alternative it should be considered if infinite rain is deemed overpowered.
It would be circular to continue with "We lose this without drizzle, but lose this without swift swim"
Limiting rain offense to bulky offense for the most part or removing rain stall, I would think in the grand scheme the loss of a play style is simply put the loss of a play style. A minimal difference in term's of abusers such as a difference between 17 and 18 or 17 and 20, shouldn't be the sole factor between anti-drizzle or anti-swim.
If anything looking at it I feel that neither is a particularly better option, however part of the suspect tests is playing without something and seeing how things are. However considering the system, swift swim likely won't get tested anyways. With rain stall being the least popular of the two options, it's loss will go for the most part unnoticed, and Drizzle if it comes down to it would most likely be the one lost. Not s because of a small difference like 17-18/19/20, but with few likely experiencing or caring for rain stall, it is an after-thought if a thought at all when voting time comes.
My view (though I think since it took me so damn long to write, my views changed after writing it...but too much effort to go back into it)
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It is one thing to say.
"There is a problem with the sweeping power in rain, and we deem it broken, and here are all the possible solutions"
It is another thing to say "There is a problem with the sweeping power in rain...just remove rain."
You can easily replace the below terms with the words relating to that weather/ability.
You could ban drizzle
You could ban swift swim
You could ban specific pokemon.
You could carry a weather move that does not threaten your team
You could carry a weather pokemon to counteract.
There may be possibilities that I've overlooked as well.
Banning Drizzle.
Swift Swim is limited to rain dance use
Rain dance lasts 8 turns maximum.
Rain dance is subject to flinch and paralysis stun.
Rain dance is subject to encore and taunt.
Rain Stall is destroyed/neutered.
Rain being used to aid balanced teams becomes difficult.
Thunder and Hurricane suffer
Moonlight,morning sun and synthesis aren't always gimped.
Castform is not always in water form
Weatherball is a constant 100 BP special water move.
You may think that simply because many of those are present with RD but they're not constant so "big deal". The constant rain, makes things dependable. When you know rain will more than likely always be up unless another inducer comes or your opponent carries opposing weather (or one of the cloud nine pokemon), you build your team knowing this consistency. Weatherball stops being usually a 100 BP water move, and always a 100 BP move, these moves can then be depended on for coverage. Without the rain it's then a problem that well "My roserade had water coverage but rain just ended, so now it can't 2hko/ohko this guy, and is going to die, because it doesnt have the coverage". Thunder working then becomes a matter of luck, suddenly Thunder misses the next turn rain went down, and the opponent wins only because a 30% chance to miss activated. It's not just pokemon with abilities that are only in affect in their respective weather that are affected by banning their perma weather.
Rain stall is heavily affected by the removal of Drizzle. Attempt hail stall without auto hail simply through using the move. Do the weather stalls without auto weather. Use their respective weather moves, report the efficiency of it. Perhaps the loss of rain stall is blown out of proportion, it's completely viable and works fine without drizzle, is that an argument anti-drizzle is making?
Ban Swift swim
38 pokemon (not all Fully evolved) would lose the ability
18 Fully evolved pokemon would lose it.
Glass cannon swift swimmers, cannot take hits
Mundane speeds unless stat boosted.
Does not affect pokemon without that ability
Rain's inherit affects remain untouched
Rain is constant, and strategies acknowledging that consistency remain
Rain stall remains
Infinite rain, constantly reduces fire damage
Infinite rain, constantly increases water damage.
If you use teams in rain other than swift swimmers your not affected as rain remains. Many pokemon benefit when rain is infinite. Fire resistant pokemon are now 4x resistant, fire weak pokemon are now only 2x or take neutral damage. Pokemon with Thunder & Hurricane can use those moves knowing they have now have consistently awesome accuracy. There not set up and then have awesome accuracy moves anymore. Water pokemon are just naturally stronger,when surf does 1.5x more damage than normal, honestly to think rain offense disappears is a stretch.
The damage of rain offense doesn't disappear, 1.5x water damage with swift swim and 1.5x water damage without swift swim are the same thing.
The issue of losing swift swim isn't damage but speed, naturally everyone knows that. Without Swift swim, the Rain offense game changes drastically. Switch in's have to be very well done for certain pokemon, and even then staying in or statting up remains incredibly difficult for them.
When Omastar is weak to ground,electric,fighting and grass, the 75/125/70 defenses don't necessarily preserve it. Rain pokemon are not necessarily used to having to do any speed boosting for efficiency. It's definitely a hard hit to pokemon that possess swift swim.
Lets look at it though.
Kingdra has many resistances, and the base stats good enough to let it come in and take 2, 3 hits or so. Even current Kingdra when it does get hit, it takes more than one hit unless it's the dragon weakness. If Drizzles banned, Rain dance has to be set up, Kingdra would likely carry it's own RD. If Swift swim is banned but rain is infinite? Instead of carrying rain dance, it carries agility, dragon dance, choice scarf, even then it's bulky and can trade a couple hits likely causing an OHKO with it's powerful hydro pump.Kingdra isn't down and out by any stretch. Floatzel, very similar, 115 base Speed, he was never slow to begin with, and would still out speed many threats. Bulk Up, agility, he too can still sweep.
Gorebyss can definitely survive, if Gorebyss can spare a turn to Shellbreak now, she can spare it later. Rain doesn't improve defense, if shes not getting OHKO'd now that doesn't change without swift swim. However thats Shellbreak Gorebyss, the typical Gorebyss gets hit hard since it's speed is terrible. Empoleon can sweep with agility too.
However what the ban of swift swim would hurt the most is UU swift swimmers. Politoed will more than likely stay OU as long as it has drizzle, however if swift swim is banned, UU pokemon who have nothing to do with drizzle will also be affected. Having to set up their own rain...and then what agility boost, or whatever it takes for them to get in the game? That's hard. Rain could quite likely vanish from UU completely.
Rain is powerful even if they don't set up. Milotic (even now) gets double stab in rain, Swampert, Gastrodon, Blastoise. These pokemon all start hitting harder, and they are tank pokemon to begin with. Bulky waters who still can 2hk and 0hko pokemon in rain, not affected by a loss of swift swim. Sweepers who are not water type but have water attacks still benefit. Hydro Pump Salamence, Surf Latios. Being offensive in rain is changed from what it is now but is not destroyed in OU, if swift swim is banned, rain in UU however...
Banning specific pokemon
Do we ban things based on their performance in weather?
In Swift swimmers case, there are 18 of them, many replacements.
Would banning that pokemon rectify the situation if Infinite rain is broken.
Carry a weather move
Weather moves take up a slot that could be used for something else
Weather moves are useless if your opposition uses that weather.
Acknowledges that weather is a huge part of the metagame
Weathers used can compliment the team
The weather will die in 5/8 turns allowing for normal weather.
Severely drops the power of many weather teams.
Apparently not packing counters to what is the metagame or at least a large part of it is unacceptable. That would be silly of me to say of course, because people are packing counters, though they are not typically weather moves. Is being forced to carry a weather move overcentralizing? Weather is not one specific team, it's composed of different pokemon and one rain team does not have to be identical to another for instance. Using a weather move is not for one specific monster, or generally for one specific team or weather. Bringing a weather move is considering the general threat of weather. Hail being useless when running into a hail team is similar to surf being useless against a water absorber, unfortunate but it's not the end. Using weather also can help teams do more than just oppose weather. Using sun for instance when faced with Burungeru helps reduce it's boil over's damage output, if cresselia is moonlighting you can weaken that. If your about to pull off a sweep with Salamence next turn maybe you want to set him up with stab fire blasts. Even then it's not your only option. You already know if you've got MH paralyze or trick room you can severely hamper speed based weather teams, if those are what you consider the hugest threats.
Carrying a weather pokemon
Carrying a T-tar or Hippowdon is not unusual to anyone.
Politoed isn't dead weight anymore, it can hit hard in rain.
Ninetales....can be useful to standard teams...
Creates what I feel is an interesting dynamic of "protect the weather"
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Oh and to the other guys talking about counters.
Cotten guard MH erufuun could probably counter or check Kabutops though.
Cotten guard, Encore, energy ball, and one other move.
Since rain only boosts it's waterfall use priority CG to get +3 defense, then energy ball next turn. If it sword dance encore it. Though it can aqua jet as well, but erufuun may survive that too, and if it does aqua jet to get through the encore. You have him locked in on his weakest move and can try to deal with him knowing that.
Erufuun would still be useful out of rain anyways since it has encore and that fourth move count be leech seed or whatever you want.
So what you're trying to say is...ban Swift Swim? I'd be cool with that as well although it definitely cripples more than banning Drizzle when you have Damp Rock and Rain Dance. That IS what those items were made for. And Drizzle isn't exactly new, new for OU, but Kyogre and Groudon have existed for quite a while and run some weather abuser on occasion like Kabutops, Kingdra, Exeggutor, (soon Venasaur), etc. The concept of them in permanent rain is not groundbreaking new either and they've always been phenomenal in rain/sun (whatever weather you're playing). And keeping niches for things like Parasect is not really a priority to controlling Swift Swim. Banning Swift Swim directly could work since I guess you'd never see then in OU again and are still useable (and always had been) with the ubers but you can't kill Rain alone.
Sun is just as dangerous, if not more so than Rain and banning Swift Swim would essentially murder any point in having a rain team. You can use Rain for something else, but the question becomes why. It is useful for messing with Fire and Moonlight and giving a pseudo stab but most aren't going to bother with it, despite the awesomeness of double stab Hydro Pump on toad. And Sand will likely be over dominant (again). Fire is good to roast stuff and kill whatever Rain Teams have left after completely killing it's offensive potential (you can't honestly expect Agility Kingdra to go anywhere do you? I'd rather abuse Sniper Specs and hopefully ohko Nattorei with Sniper Critical Hit Hydro Pump in Rain without Swift Swim). I mean, Parasect and Ludicolo is about the remainder that directly uses rain for more than pseudo stab and somewhat defensive purposes. Parasect can get roasted in Sun and Ludicolo could Subseed but without Swift Swim (I guess you do have rain dish), other subseeders are better and would kill him if they carry Sludge Bomb (they would have anyway if he was subseed but if he was an offensive threat instead...).
Sun could potentially be harder to stop (barring Heatran, Tyranitar, and the very tough challenge of even getting Ninetails in and out). You can't use Nattorei and take out 1 (or more) as Natt gets roasted and you'd be hard pressed to take fire attacks. The Charizard I was thinking of was gimmick-ish with Sunny Day/Solar Beam/Fire Blast or Flamethrower/Air Slash (or Dragon Pulse or Nitro Charge). You Sunny Day right as Tyranitar obviously tries to switch in and clear your weather (and it's Charizard of the 4x rock weakness and the sun power boost threat, Tyranitar loves to switch in). Unless they're running both Hippo and Tar, you now have Sun up (because I think it goes they switch, sand comes, you Sunny Day, although if the timing isn't like that, then never mind). You now have a Sun boosted Solar Beam and double boosted Stab Fire move and you outspeed Tyranitar unless it's Scarf. That is what I was thinking when I mention Solar Beam (I know Sand ruins it and it is dependant on timing but if it goes like that, then it could work).
You can't just throw a bulky water and hope to survive the Sun team. They'd eat you bad. It is unfortunate fires don't get Chlorophyll but whatever, they still get insane power boosts. Choice Band Hidiharuma 2hkoes Suicune and Burungeru in Sun. 2 HIT KOES! If Heatran becomes a problem, start switching to Life Orb. If you kill things like Suicune, it's all good (and Flare Blitz is Encourage Boosted and Life Orb recoil free I am mostly certain) and if you don't need Flare Blitz, you still got stab sun boosted encourage life orb Fire Punch. Heatran will DIE to Hammer Arm and he just loves to switch in on Sun Flare Blitz (because nothing else frankly is going to survive that hit). Azumarill is only a 2 hit ko in Sun and priority is a 2 hit ko. You need something faster but if you have nothing, Hidiharuma will tear apart.
I'd ban ALL weather inducers at once. How can you say it is being traditional to want to keep weather out for being new and then want sand banned as well (and Sand is the OU tradition from since like forever in Gen 3). Sand and all weather has only gotten more and more ridiculous. Just because it was fine before doesn't mean it can't be more broken later and frankly, all weather has reached the point of threatening power if it wasn't for the others, sand and rain just being the two stronger ones with the better users and more abusers. Sun has Ninetails which is hard and Hail has always been ruined by Sand being everywhere. But if it was the only weather, Hail would be completely evil. You can still set up Rain Dance and sweep with things but it is harder. But banning Swift Swim completely kills them and any usage they have (and you reccomend stuff like Agility on Kingdra?). Are Swift Swimmers broken? In Permanent Weather: Absolutely. Without? Eh-not so much.
If you want to have Rain Dance for it's effects that bad, use the move. There are numerous users which can set it up without needing a permanent weather abuser and who really gives a damn about killing Parasect utility? It has a niche in ubers (and killing Kyogres/Groudons). Toxicroak can set up his own rain if he needs it that bad and he doesn't. Having Rain is nice, but not a privilege (one that should be obtained through permanent inducers regardless of who they are anyways).
You could use Brongzong, Mew, Tornelos, Zapdos, Roserade, Kyurem, Sableye, Erufuun, Harriyama, any Grass poke pretty much, Kingdra, Ludicolo, Electrode, and a long list of pokes to set up Rain/Sun if one needs it that badly. But permanent weather is way too overpowering and broken through power, support, and overcentralization characteristics (if one really cares to follow the uber guidelines). Will Politoad and Ninetails be good in Ubers? No, but that doesn't mean their abilities aren't too powerful (well, not as much as Inconsistent obviously which is so getting axed as a clause but really close).
But permanent weather is way too overpowering and broken through power, support, and overcentralization characteristics (if one really cares to follow the uber guidelines).
Anyhow, I fail to see how any one weather is broken at all; none of them have a complete monopoly over the metagame at all; sand and rain are fairly dominant, with a decent amount of sun and some hail. Each of the four weathers has far less centralization than sand did last gen.
OH LAWL my hide tabs aren't working oh well. my responses are in there....if you wish to drop into it
Fluffy Otter
Slimman
Oh and to the other guys talking about counters.
Cotten guard MH erufuun could probably counter or check Kabutops though.
Cotten guard, Encore, energy ball, and one other move.
Since rain only boosts it's waterfall use priority CG to get +3 defense, then energy ball next turn. If it sword dance encore it. Though it can aqua jet as well, but erufuun may survive that too, and if it does aqua jet to get through the encore. You have him locked in on his weakest move and can try to deal with him knowing that.
Erufuun would still be useful out of rain anyways since it has encore and that fourth move count be leech seed or whatever you want.
Kabutops checks: Nattorei, Torterra (for non choice band variants as he can switch in on anything kabutops can do), Scarfmin-S, Scarf deoxys A or N, Choice scarf Golduck with hidden Power grass or Hydro Pump, Roobushin, MH Volotos, MH Erufuun, MH Toneresu, toxicroak, Drought Ninetales, Scarf Tyranitar, Poliwrath, and some possible others.
Ludicolo checks: Parasect, Nattorei, Rotom-C, Rankurusu and sp. def shinpora for subseed variants, MH Erufuun, MH Volotos, MH Tonoresu, Scarfmin-S, Scarf Deoxys-A or N, CB Deoxys with extreme speed, Tentacruel, and some others I really can't think of. >_>
Kingdra checks: Nattorei and Empoleon are the only things I can think of, sadly.
Deoxys N/A with a choice scarf can reliably be used to check Doryuzuu with superpower. Sure that's only one pokemon, but still worth a mention.
Firstly, with little recovery outside of Lefties and meh SpD at best. This would require a team to run a specially defensive Nattorei on every team if they wanted to be able to counter Rain. That seems overcentralizing to me. Also, why in the world have you not mentioned Breloom (or to a lesser extent, Roobushin) as a Doryuuzu counter. It can switch in on an EQ or predicted SD and OHKO with a priority move. Techniloom also does a great job of dealing with Hippo and T-Tar OHKO the dinosaur and at least 2HKOing Hippo with Bullet Seed
Oh, my mistake, I would assume that you wouldn't be using his subpar STAB when in the Rain, but I guessed wrong. So instead, you get walled by Wish Jirachi, Leech Seed Protect Nattorei, and become set-up bait for Offensive Steels.
Too bad Voltlos is still alive after breaking the sub, because his priority TWave doesn't care about your speed.
To be frank I wasn't at all thinking. Because really, these things are so completely buttraped by Nattorei, that I don't use anything else anymore, so I'm not current on what these Pokemon can't touch. Here let me rephrase, For DD Kingdra, Forretress and Burungeru laugh at it. Burungeru takes Waterfalls e'erday o' his life. And Forretress comes in on Outrage saying but a simple "Derp". Gyarados was more of a check to the SD Ludicolo that I somehow equated to Kabutops in my brain. But Kabutops is so terribly squishy that most any super-effective move that hits him will do enough to OHKO or at least severely cripple.
Meanwhile, you're the genius coming up with RestTalk DDOutrage Kingdra for rains teams as a way to beat Nattorei one on one. A pinnacle of Brilliance. Also
Who's looking stupid now? I never once mentioned Torterra. What was the phrase...
Oh, right, thank you.
No, it's not safe to make that assumption, because we don't know whether Rain is broken in that metagame yet. Or if that Metagame will exist at all. And we especially shouldn't ban drizzle because of a meta with Manaphy in it.
Also Qwilfish uses Poison Jab on the Nattorei I just switched in on your rain team because Nattorei shits on rain. It doesn't affect him. Qwilfish proceeds to look stupid for pretending that he can be important.
Well, excuse me for assuming you meant Torterra when you said "Kabutops uses Swords Dance, opposing pokemon uses Earthquake!" You quoted me where Torterra was specifically mentioned and Kabutops would have to be an idiot to try to Swords Dance on something that carries Earthquake facing it. And by the way, Kabutops is frail, but not THAT DEOXY-A type frail. It can survive Roopushin's Mach Punch which unboosted only does about 60%. It also takes Scizors. The only ones who threaten are Breloom and Hitmontop.
The only set up steel Kingdra is bait for is Scizor who will almost always be Choice Band but you do have to beware of SWORDS DANCE Scizor (which I still think is one of his best sets as well). But according to usage...And Dragon Pulse Heatran who doesn't want to be in rain anyways. Nonetheless...Jirachi will depend on what set it's running.
If it is Dragon Dance/Outrage/Waterfall (usually walled by Nattorei if it lives but still effective), Forretress wouldn't want to come in anyways since it can't really do anything to Kingdra either except Spike and boosted Waterfalls will kill.
Also...why would you need to switch to Nattorei if you're running Choice Scarf Shaymin? Weren't you confident in your speed? You were before. You'd expected to kill it only to be jabbed. And isn't it good news when it is possible for Qwilfish to kill max hp/no def (assumed max hp/max sdef against rain?) with Swords Dance Waterfall and flinch hax? That poor little underused pufferfish. And again, who would honestly expect Shaymin to be outsped by Qwilfish of all things, especially given the usage it has?
And I guess I forgot Leech Seed (and Iron Barbs) which would wreck it. But short of that or boosting, it does outstall Nattorei and Empoleon. But anyways, Nattorei risks a Choice Specs Hydro Pump. You can't Thunderwave if you're doing Spikes/Protect/Leech Seed/Powerwhip. Hydro Pump can 3 hit ko and if Nattorei was damaged by a Ludicolo Focus Blast, Hydro Pump would finish it off (actually, Ludicolo would have finished you off in that case probably).
We can be fairly sure that weather will dominate (and most likely be broken, look at sand and good rain teams). The BL ubers kind of held things like rain back but once they're gone...we'll see but at the very least we know that things like Shaymin-S are going to be banned. If you look at the votes EVERYONE has Shaymin-S and Darkrai and I think Inconsistent (for 99.9% of them) listed for the at least bans and a large majority of Deoxys.
If it is Dragon Dance/Outrage/Waterfall (usually walled by Nattorei if it lives but still effective), Forretress wouldn't want to come in anyways since it can't really do anything to Kingdra either except Spike and boosted Waterfalls will kill.
If it didn't use Rest, of course you wouldn't change from Nattorei. Offensive steels stop Kingdra if it used Rest on Nattorei, at which point you obviously know it's not carrying Waterfall.
Also...why would you need to switch to Nattorei if you're running Choice Scarf Shaymin? Weren't you confident in your speed? You were before. You'd expected to kill it only to be jabbed. And isn't it good news when it is possible for Qwilfish to kill max hp/no def (assumed max hp/max sdef against rain?) with Swords Dance Waterfall and flinch hax? That poor little underused pufferfish. And again, who would honestly expect Shaymin to be outsped by Qwilfish of all things, especially given the usage it has?
Your opponent miscalculating speed has nothing to do with how good it itself is though...
We can be fairly sure that weather will dominate (and most likely be broken, look at sand and good rain teams). The BL ubers kind of held things like rain back but once they're gone...we'll see but at the very least we know that things like Shaymin-S are going to be banned. If you look at the votes EVERYONE has Shaymin-S and Darkrai and I think Inconsistent (for 99.9% of them) listed for the at least bans and a large majority of Deoxys.
Because I, unlike some, like debating (if it even makes any sense unlike say Gyrados switching into Kabutops or Forretress into Kingdra without knowing it's moveset). Cool. I still think auto permanent weather is broken (best arguments otherwise go to Lickilicky and potential hypothetical Trick Room although I don't know how they would work in practice) but regardless is still devestating.
I still like the position of banning all permanent weather. Sandstream, Snowstorm, Drizzle, Drought to Ubers. In a weather metagame, unless you play weather, you will have to be able to handle 4 different weathers (but sand/rain being strongest although Sun is also insanely threatening, held back only by the better usage and overall pokemon on sand and Hail Stall is evil if you ever face that without a weather change). Also it builds a stressor on Nattorei (who only counters one weather really and then makes it vulnerable to sand/hail and Nattorei is dead meat against sun).
But as for your counters you have to watch for...
Shouldn't it be best to remove all mentions of the bl ubers when it is likely they'll be broken and disappear?
Kabutops: Torterra can not switch in on Swords Dance (or Nattorei for that matter) as Swords Dance Kabutops would clobber them with boosted Waterfall and Low Kick. Roopushin NEEDS Guts activated for without +1, only does 60%. Again, I guess that is why it carries Flame Orb although it makes it die much faster. Voltlos can Thunderwave it to make it useless but without Focus Sash would die. Tornelos can Tail Wind but still die without Focus Sash. Fine then, those are acceptable. Golduck murders Kabutops yes but you're using a freaking Scarf Duck. Kingdra can com in on Hp Grass and begin terrorizing again and Manaphy (while it's here) sets up. Swords Dance Stone Edge koes Toxicroaks weak defenses even with Resistance and Rock Slide 2 hit koes while unboosted Sucker Punch does less than half. Drought Ninetails would have a lot of Guts switching in on a Rock/Water hoping it doesn't get hit by Rock Slide. Scarf Tyranitar can't ko without Hidden Power Grass or something stupid while Waterfall still ohkoes even without Rain or Dance. Poliwrath I take. Also someone mentioned Erufuun Cotton Guard. That also walls like heck a physical Kabutops. While they suggested Energy Ball, I would instead suggest taking advantage of the Mischievious Heart Tailwind against Rain or Toxic or something before they make a move. It has okay attacking stats, but not that good and would rather use it's priority status.
Ludicolo: Parasect has to watch out for Icebeam since that would murder it, otherwise fine. Nattorei has to watch out for Focus Blast. Rotom for Icebeam. Rankurusu for 2 hit koing Surf. Voltlos and Tornelos are much the same except need Focus Sash and Gale would kill Ludicolo.
If it didn't use Rest, of course you wouldn't change from Nattorei. Offensive steels stop Kingdra if it used Rest on Nattorei, at which point you obviously know it's not carrying Waterfall.
Your opponent miscalculating speed has nothing to do with how good it itself is though...
Uh, voting hasn't started yet. Y'know, there's kind of a HUGE difference between voting and nominations....
So you're running Forretress and Nattorei on the same team now? Isn't that a waste and potential fire hazard as well as doing much the same things and overlapping?
Despite the fact Forretress laughs at Outrages, it still is 2 hit koed by boosted Waterfalls.
Not really and notice how EVERYONE IS SHAYMIN-S, DARKRAI, INCONSISTENT? That says something. We all know what three at the very min are going. Probably Deoxys, Manaphy, and potentially but less likely Latios.
And in that situation, they just lost Shaymin-S and are facing down a hungry team of Swift Swimmers so they better have Nattorei (unless he's dead too) or they've lost.
I still like the position of banning all permanent weather. Sandstream, Snowstorm, Drizzle, Drought to Ubers. In a weather metagame, unless you play weather, you will have to be able to handle 4 different weathers (but sand/rain being strongest although Sun is also insanely threatening, held back only by the better usage and overall pokemon on sand and Hail Stall is evil if you ever face that without a weather change). Also it builds a stressor on Nattorei (who only counters one weather really and then makes it vulnerable to sand/hail and Nattorei is dead meat against sun).
Having to handle something isn't what makes something broken, y'know. Considering that having more potential threats and playstyles in the metagame is a sign of decentralization, which is the opposite of what we're trying to prevent. >_>
So you're running Forretress and Nattorei on the same team now? Isn't that a waste and potential fire hazard as well as doing much the same things and overlapping?
Uh, if your definition of offensive steel is forretress, sure. Alternately, if you feel like being practical, Scizor and co. don't mind Outrages either.
Despite the fact Forretress laughs at Outrages, it still is 2 hit koed by boosted Waterfalls.
If you, for some reason, wanted to switch in Forretress into a Kingdra that has waterfall, yeah. Alternately, you could wait until it starts using Rest on your Nattorei first.
Not really and notice how EVERYONE IS SHAYMIN-S, DARKRAI, INCONSISTENT? That says something. We all know what three at the very min are going. Probably Deoxys, Manaphy, and potentially but less likely Latios.
And in that situation, they just lost Shaymin-S and are facing down a hungry team of Swift Swimmers so they better have Nattorei (unless he's dead too) or they've lost.
So you're running Forretress and Nattorei on the same team now? Isn't that a waste and potential fire hazard as well as doing much the same things and overlapping?
Despite the fact Forretress laughs at Outrages, it still is 2 hit koed by boosted Waterfalls.
Not really and notice how EVERYONE IS SHAYMIN-S, DARKRAI, INCONSISTENT? That says something. We all know what three at the very min are going. Probably Deoxys, Manaphy, and potentially but less likely Latios.
And in that situation, they just lost Shaymin-S and are facing down a hungry team of Swift Swimmers so they better have Nattorei (unless he's dead too) or they've lost.
It's just that outside of a very, very limited amount of things, nothing can contain weather very well so that it ISN'T broken. Weather...hits each other. Non-weather teams...caught in between the weather wars. And many are relying on a single pokemon (who is potentially 1-2 or 3 hit koed by them) to counter multiple things that doesn't have much Recovery besides Leftovers and maybe Leech Seed although when they pound you, it doesn't help that much.
To stop Rain, it invests max hp/max sdef (right? But in any case it still needs a heck of a lot). This takes from defense and makes it eat dirt from sand since a boosted Earthquake deals a lot. It's not likely to run multiple defensive steels on the same team like Skarmory/Nattorei being that they share the same weakness and do much the same things. The difference is in the defenses could turn a 3 hit ko (with more defense) into a 2 hit ko Stab Earthquake against Nattorei, which when doubled by Swords is a ohko. It can't defend from both sides THAT effectively as some people make it out to be. And if you go all out for rain, it's vulnerable to sand and vice versa.
It is murdered by Sun obviously. Heatran which could work gets killed by Jump Kicks and Hammer Arms if they see it. Hidiharuma is by the way faster than Heatran so if it's carrying Life Orb (it loses the guaranteed 2 hit ko on Suicune but if Heatran becomes an issue then it's worth it since Flare Blitz is Encourage Boosted without additional Life Orb) it will die. Normal things like Sazandora Scarf are vulnerable to other things
(Mebjuka, +2 Life Orb Venasaur, Scarf Solar Power Charizard, etc) but they will probably lose something to Draco Meteor (unless it's Forretress). Still Hidiharuma and others come in to finish it off.
The closest thing mentioned was Lickilicky, Trick Room, and maybe Choice Scarf Golduck? (Ugh, weak thing but fortunately most weathers are somewhat defensively weak but that thing would have problems. Lickilicky is still way better.) But those are only temporary and who knows how actually effective those are (Trick Room isn't really seen much now as it is when it is the best time for it. What would suddenly make it jump everywhere later?)
Because I, unlike some, like debating (if it even makes any sense unlike say Gyrados switching into Kabutops or Forretress into Kingdra without knowing it's moveset). Cool. I still think auto permanent weather is broken (best arguments otherwise go to Lickilicky and potential hypothetical Trick Room although I don't know how they would work in practice) but regardless is still devestating.
I still like the position of banning all permanent weather. Sandstream, Snowstorm, Drizzle, Drought to Ubers. In a weather metagame, unless you play weather, you will have to be able to handle 4 different weathers (but sand/rain being strongest although Sun is also insanely threatening, held back only by the better usage and overall pokemon on sand and Hail Stall is evil if you ever face that without a weather change). Also it builds a stressor on Nattorei (who only counters one weather really and then makes it vulnerable to sand/hail and Nattorei is dead meat against sun).
But as for your counters you have to watch for...
Shouldn't it be best to remove all mentions of the bl ubers when it is likely they'll be broken and disappear?
Kabutops: Torterra can not switch in on Swords Dance (or Nattorei for that matter) as Swords Dance Kabutops would clobber them with boosted Waterfall and Low Kick. Roopushin NEEDS Guts activated for without +1, only does 60%. Again, I guess that is why it carries Flame Orb although it makes it die much faster. Voltlos can Thunderwave it to make it useless but without Focus Sash would die. Tornelos can Tail Wind but still die without Focus Sash. Fine then, those are acceptable. Golduck murders Kabutops yes but you're using a freaking Scarf Duck. Kingdra can com in on Hp Grass and begin terrorizing again and Manaphy (while it's here) sets up. Swords Dance Stone Edge koes Toxicroaks weak defenses even with Resistance and Rock Slide 2 hit koes while unboosted Sucker Punch does less than half. Drought Ninetails would have a lot of Guts switching in on a Rock/Water hoping it doesn't get hit by Rock Slide. Scarf Tyranitar can't ko without Hidden Power Grass or something stupid while Waterfall still ohkoes even without Rain or Dance. Poliwrath I take. Also someone mentioned Erufuun Cotton Guard. That also walls like heck a physical Kabutops. While they suggested Energy Ball, I would instead suggest taking advantage of the Mischievious Heart Tailwind against Rain or Toxic or something before they make a move. It has okay attacking stats, but not that good and would rather use it's priority status.
Ludicolo: Parasect has to watch out for Icebeam since that would murder it, otherwise fine. Nattorei has to watch out for Focus Blast. Rotom for Icebeam. Rankurusu for 2 hit koing Surf. Voltlos and Tornelos are much the same except need Focus Sash and Gale would kill Ludicolo.
Having to handle something isn't what makes something broken, y'know. Considering that having more potential threats and playstyles in the metagame is a sign of decentralization, which is the opposite of what we're trying to prevent. >_>
Edit:
Uh, if your definition of offensive steel is forretress, sure. Alternately, if you feel like being practical, Scizor and co. don't mind Outrages either.
If you, for some reason, wanted to switch in Forretress into a Kingdra that has waterfall, yeah. Alternately, you could wait until it starts using Rest on your Nattorei first.
Why would they lose if they don't have Nattorei? Did Lickilicky, Trick Room, and other weathers disappear for some reason?
When Forretress had been mentioned as countering Kingdra BEFORE it knew what set was running. Then me and the other guy started talking about Rest Talk Kingdra against Nattorei (kay, I now realize it would lose most likely against Iron Barbs and Leech Seed but that would be the only reason. If it didn't have the Leech Seed then maybe?) and then I don't know what. But we can all agree that switching in Forretress against Kingdra unless it's Outraging is stupid.
Why on earth would you run Choice Scarf Shaymin and Trick Room on the Same team or Lickilicky with in a BL UBer format? Do you see any Lickilickies running around with Shaymin-S?
Speaking of Trick Room, as dangerous as they can be, they simply AREN'T USED MUCH, at least from what I can tell. It might have to do with putting an entire team around a strategy that lasts half the time of a traditional weather item and move would with much more limited users, as well as requiring to have such slow pokemon that outside it, they have to take hits and some are bulky, but some not that bulky or at least useful outside of setting Trick Room (Dusclops for example who has Trick Room and Will-O-Wisp), which would still falter against an offensive weather team simply because they move so fast you'd have trouble even getting a Trick Room.
And even now when it is really the best time for them (what with BL ubers, weather, etc) they are still rarely seen. They can be monstrous but realistically, they're not as big a deal from usage (relating to only 4 turns which is a big part) and while they can work, weather has less to fear in general from the, as it would from each other.
That is what you said right and you did ask for my response? And I hope I gave the right type of response that you asked for (it was about counters to Kabutops and Ludicolo, right?).
