np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

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Wow.

Theorymon(with no experience) is one thing, but when everyone disagrees with you, you really have to consider the possibility that you're horribly, horribly wrong.

It was alright at first, but now I see that I've gone overboard and turned this thread into a massive clusterfuck. Sorry everyone. Maybe we should drop the entire ubers in OU thing?

Please don't delete this mods, I promise I'll be a good boy!

....

I should post something relevant.

Has anyone considered Roserade as an inconsistent counter? It's typing resists surf and toxic, it can switch into smeargle if it protects on the first turn, outspeed and sleep it. Base 125 special attack +technician + magical leaf can threaten octillery and bibarel fairly well I'd assume, and it can set up toxic spikes too.
 
I definitely think it would be a good idea to test Darkrai without Dark Void for OU; there are lots of good arguments supporting this floating around PR and elsewhere in this thread, and even if it turns out still broken, there's sufficient evidence to warrant a test, IMO.
 
First off darkrai without sleep has many niche. As a scarfer he has 125 speed, 135 SpA and good movepool. As a sweeper, he has enough bulk and threatening level to force switch and set up SD or NP. his movepool rival that of gengar meaning an all out attack with 4 attack will be enough for him to break the game. And we know how nasty it is gengar. Darkrai is pretty much worse resistance more bulky and more powerful gengar with 125(trolled by Skymin) speed

WAIT he has taunt, W-o-W, T-Wave, and a darktype ?
wow
 
I don't care for this "Darkrai without Dark Void" business. That's stepping right into "Dragons without Draco Meteor" territory, which is just all kinds of dumb nonsense. And please don't vote assuming his sleep move is banned or sleep moves in general will be banned. Darkrai is Darkrai with Dark Void, and with that, I won't hear any arguments about him being OU.
 
JT Swift said:
Wow.

Theorymon(with no experience) is one thing, but when everyone disagrees with you, you really have to consider the possibility that you're horribly, horribly wrong.

It was alright at first, but now I see that I've gone overboard and turned this thread into a massive clusterfuck. Sorry everyone. Maybe we should drop the entire ubers in OU thing?

Please don't delete this mods, I promise I'll be a good boy!

....

I should post something relevant.

Has anyone considered Roserade as an inconsistent counter? It's typing resists surf and toxic, it can switch into smeargle if it protects on the first turn, outspeed and sleep it. Base 125 special attack +technician + magical leaf can threaten octillery and bibarel fairly well I'd assume, and it can set up toxic spikes too.
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Its not your wrong opinion that is bashed its because your post is mostly using so fragile theory not the real fact. EX: If Cress is better Everybody(me included although im Lugia fanboy) will use cress not Lugia yet you know that they use Lugia. Also lugia is not used because it is uber. Its because hes good. In fact, an OU is Top 10 on Ubers. This fact alone show why lugia is better(he can phaze after all)

Now for roserade, he is fragile and weak to fire. Its a big issue for something to counter Octilerry.

I dont think specsdra THAT broken. Specszando cant break Burungeru without Dark Pulse
No way Specsdra can do the better. Theres always other teammates though but yeah

Finally im getting enough for doryuuzu. I do abuse him but the fact that he is now the single
most influental pokemon in the entire game never change. Those suspects ? only manaphy stand a ghost of a chance. He forces Roob, gliscor etc making the metagame more open for the last gen ubers to wreak havoc on. Only time will tell about this though.

@ SJcrew's post : well its not like dragon without meteor. Its Dragon without DM and outrage TBH.
 
domeface said:
I definitely think it would be a good idea to test Darkrai without Dark Void for OU; there are lots of good arguments supporting this floating around PR and elsewhere in this thread, and even if it turns out still broken, there's sufficient evidence to warrant a test, IMO.
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this is darkrai w/o void: offencive stats = 2 alakazams w/ far superior bulk, better type, + way better support pool (wow, hypnosis, nightmare, dream eater). also 4 an obnoxious gimmick void/hypnosis, nightmare, dream eater, dark pulse, w/ bad dreams that is a really nasty mess w/ proper support.
 
domeface said:
I definitely think it would be a good idea to test Darkrai without Dark Void for OU; there are lots of good arguments supporting this floating around PR and elsewhere in this thread, and even if it turns out still broken, there's sufficient evidence to warrant a test, IMO.
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So can we test other mons w/out certain moves? If the only water move we give Kyrogre is water pulse can we use him in OU? I agree w/ the Darkrai is Darkrai thought.
 
I think that a good reference for what is deemed broken is 4th gen garchomp. It emerged eventually and it became apparent that it was too much for OU.

The word is being used way too frivolously, to the point of being meaningless.
 
If Sleep moves were banned outright, I would use Chople Darkrai with Nasty Plot/Dark Pulse/Focus Blast/Psychic. That, or Sub/Nasty Plot/Dark Pulse/Focus Blast. Either way, "Good luck, Roobushin/Breloom/Infernape". Even without Dark Void, Darkrai would remain a massive threat. Dark Void is generally too good to really want to pass up, but honestly without it Darkrai still has plenty of options, allowing it to either gain very useful coverage or make it a LOT harder to revenge kill. Honestly, I think that banning Sleep moves would likely lead to us banning Sleep AND Darkrai, rather than banning Sleep leaving Darkrai in OU.
 
That would go too far and be meaningless.
Basically we start with darkrai with no dark void.
Then continue Groudon without Earthquake, Stealth Rock, and thunder Wave, and SD and RP
Then Ray without DD,ES,SD,DM,OTRG
Then Ho-oh without sacred fire and brave bird

Banning sleep move is stupid for me. The only broken sleep user is Darkrai. Really. Banning Sleep move make breelom's signature set dead and it make breelom 90000 % less threatening. As of now(no techniloom) if i face loom i always put in 50-50 choice of stopping Poison Heal or Spore(at least if i dont carry bliss).
If we ban sleep move, breelom is a joke. I will always knock off his orb lefties whatever and call it a day really(this is to show the effect of banning move i just use an example)
Instead of saying sleep is broken, i rather adapt with sleep move(as of now) and implement it on my team and my mindset during plays. Its just a new threat

Finally it become whats the point argument. What i mean is like this passage :

You say it what make them broken so without that theyre not broken but then you just realized you stripped them from what make them good just to make them on par with the others. If its like this we can do, say make arceus manageable by banning this that that blah3 and you realized hes too versatile then ban his plate to make him balanced, then hes still broken you ba this that and before realizing you ban every competitive used move.

Its like were saying ohhhh i ban scizor's bullet punch and u-turn and bug bite so hes more manageable.

Long story short its like the already dead ban non luck based move discussion(SR, Spikes, and Toxic SPikes being the main Victim) that happen in the beggining of generation 5 but instead of banning move youre banning something more stupid than that

This will finally influent our thinking and recycled over and over so i say NO

*big things come in small package in this case
 
I thought the banning of Sleep moves was only for its mechanics, not because of Darkrai's existance...? I mean, it's no fun having a Sleep timer that resets every time your mon is switched out, no?
 
Ming-Ming said:
I thought the banning of Sleep moves was only for its mechanics, not because of Darkrai's existance...? I mean, it's no fun having a Sleep timer that resets every time your mon is switched out, no?
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that is a good argument 4 spore + maybe void/sleep powder, void will go w/ darkrai anyway. the other sleep moves r just to unreliable.
 
Ming-Ming said:
I thought the banning of Sleep moves was only for its mechanics, not because of Darkrai's existance...? I mean, it's no fun having a Sleep timer that resets every time your mon is switched out, no?
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Indeed. Even if Darkrai is banned this round and not sleep, I will continue nominating sleep because I truly feel it's broken. Losing 1/6th of your team (more if some pokes are already dead), as well as guarenteeing the opponent a set-up turn (an aspect of sleep it seems many are overlooking).
 
JSND said:
That would go too far and be meaningless.
Basically we start with darkrai with no dark void.
Then continue Groudon without Earthquake, Stealth Rock, and thunder Wave, and SD and RP
Then Ray without DD,ES,SD,DM,OTRG
Then Ho-oh without sacred fire and brave bird
Click to expand...

I don't think that's what's being suggested here. Nobody seems to be talking about banning Dark Void on Darkrai; they're talking about a blanket ban on Sleep moves in general, which is much more akin to Evasion Clause rather than banning Draco Meteor on Salamence.
 
1) Sleep being so nasty just means you'll see more Rest/Sleep Talk or Lum Berry usage. Heal Bell, Magic Mirror, etc, etc, all show there are plenty of counters to Spore and the like.

2) The prerequisites for sending things to Ubers should be that they either utterly invalidate 3+ other Pokemon that could fill the same niche (Skymin/Darkrai), or that they could completely take over the metagame by simply being too easy to abuse (Inconsistent). Any time you think, "Let's try X or Y in OU!" then just think about whether X or Y would invalidate 3 other Pokes (therefore limiting the already somewhat limited setting that is OU) or whether it would dominate the current OU worse than a version of Dory with a built-in Balloon.


EDIT: Also, piecemeal banning just feels like a bad idea. Yeah, I guess Octillery might not be too bad without Inconsistent...but if he's sent to Ubers, there ARE other Pokes that could fill his niche.
 
The prerequisites for sending things to Ubers should be that they either utterly invalidate 3+ other Pokemon that could fill the same niche
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I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Plenty of Pokemon in OU outclass Pokemon in BL/UU, and plenty of Pokemon in BL/UU outclass Pokemon in NU. The fact that one Pokemon "invalidates" other Pokemon doesn't make it Uber, it just makes it better.
 
Crimson Lancer said:
1) Sleep being so nasty just means you'll see more Rest/Sleep Talk or Lum Berry usage. Heal Bell, Magic Mirror, etc, etc, all show there are plenty of counters to Spore and the like.


2) The prerequisites for sending things to Ubers should be that they either utterly invalidate 3+ other Pokemon that could fill the same niche (Skymin/Darkrai), or that they could completely take over the metagame by simply being too easy to abuse (Inconsistent). Any time you think, "Let's try X or Y in OU!" then just think about whether X or Y would invalidate 3 other Pokes (therefore limiting the already somewhat limited setting that is OU) or whether it would dominate the current OU worse than a version of Dory with a built-in Balloon.
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so u r saying that the meta should have 2 use stallish tactics 2 stop the annoying new sleep mechanics which makes no sense. lum berry is the only option provided that would even be viable on a full offensive team.
 
PokéMontage said:
I'm not really sure what you're getting at. Plenty of Pokemon in OU outclass Pokemon in BL/UU, and plenty of Pokemon in BL/UU outclass Pokemon in NU. The fact that one Pokemon "invalidates" other Pokemon doesn't make it Uber, it just makes it better.
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Outclassing ONE Poke isn't the same as invalidating 3 or more of them. Why run Togekiss, Jumpluff, or Yanmega (just to name a very few) when you could just run Skymin?

fidgety said:
so u r saying that the meta should have 2 use stallish tactics 2 stop the annoying new sleep mechanics which makes no sense. lum berry is the only option provided that would even be viable on a full offensive team.
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OMG!! You mean Stall can counter Full Offense???? When the Hell did this hap...wait...wasn't it sometime around Zun Tsu's Art of War? Yep, pretty sure it was MEANT to work that way. You run a DM Sazandora, I counter with a Blissey. You run a Ttar, I run a Spore Breloom. That's how it works.

Personally, I found that running a Lum Berry Ttar hosed everything from Darkrai all the way to Spore Smeargle. Run a single Poke with Heal Bell in your all-offense team; Sleep has existed for a lot longer than Gen 5, and not having an answer to it sounds like a personal problem, not a System problem (especially since Sleep Clause means switching out your now-snoozed Poke and negating one of your opponent's most powerful weapons). Personally, I run a Wide Lens Gengar that's fully-offensive...except for the Hypnosis he runs.


EDIT: Heck, run Magic Mirror Espeon. Fast, powerful, reflects Spore. There ya go.
 
Outclassing ONE Poke isn't the same as invalidating 3 or more of them. Why run Togekiss, Jumpluff, or Yanmega (just to name a very few) when you could just run Skymin?
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My point still stands. Outclassing multiple other Pokemon does not make a Pokemon broken. A sweeper in OU probably outclasses multiple potential sweepers in the lower tiers, which is the reason why they would be in different tiers.

Skymin wouldn't be broken because it outclasses Togekiss, Yanmega, and Jumpluff. It would be broken because it's too powerful and can easily plow its way through the metagame.
 
That logic is still incredibly flawed.

First off, using your Skymin example, you have no idea if Togekiss would have been OU this generation even if Skymin was banned. Secondly, you used the examples of Yanmega and Jumpluff, who most likely were never going to end up OU.

Let's look at another example - Blissey (at least in the 4th generation). Blissey pretty much outclasses any other Pokemon in the role of Special Wall. Also, if Blissey didn't exist, then its possible that Chansey could have been OU, or that certain special sponges (and special attackers) would have seen more use. By your definition, it would be broken.

The fact that other Pokemon are outclassed and would see more use if that one Pokemon didn't exist does not mean that one Pokemon is broken.
 
Crimson Lancer said:
OMG!! You mean Stall can counter Full Offense???? When the Hell did this hap...wait...wasn't it sometime around Zun Tsu's Art of War? Yep, pretty sure it was MEANT to work that way. You run a DM Sazandora, I counter with a Blissey. You run a Ttar, I run a Spore Breloom. That's how it works.

Personally, I found that running a Lum Berry Ttar hosed everything from Darkrai all the way to Spore Smeargle. Run a single Poke with Heal Bell in your all-offense team; Sleep has existed for a lot longer than Gen 5, and not having an answer to it sounds like a personal problem, not a System problem (especially since Sleep Clause means switching out your now-snoozed Poke and negating one of your opponent's most powerful weapons). Personally, I run a Wide Lens Gengar that's fully-offensive...except for the Hypnosis he runs.


EDIT: Heck, run Magic Mirror Espeon. Fast, powerful, reflects Spore. There ya go.
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no i'm saying that u can't expect an offensive team 2 run rest talkers just because of 1 change in mechanics. + i never said stall can't beat offense i implied that there are ppl who would prefer offense over stall + why would a heavy offense team (for example) especially if running a suicide lead waste a team slot 4 a cleric.
also wide lens gengar is a poor gimmick just sayin
 
You weren't talking about overpowerdness, you were talking about outclassing other Pokemon. Outclassing other Pokemon does NOT make something Uber. If that were the case then the only viable Pokemon would be NU seeing as how almost all of the Pokemon that end up down there are outclassed by the Pokemon in the tiers above them, meaning that all the Pokemon in the tiers above them would be Uber.
 
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