np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[SJCrew]

Oh and that still means that if Lugia comes in on a Sword danced switch Lugia's taking 60% minimum when Dory is faster, So when is Lugia using that ability to cause a 2hko when if it stops resting it gets 2HKO'd?

1-on-1 means 1-on-1; no assumed boosts or non-passive damage. If Lugia is in before Dory, he always loses. If he's boosted, Lugia Whirlwinds. He can't win.

Keep in mind those calcs are with standard Ubers Lugia. If we put it in OU mode (maxed defenses): 24.5% - 29.3%. gg

Though there is always the omni-present toxic.

Yeah, if you're at the bottom of the ladder. In higher level play, only walls use Toxic, and not all of them at that. I almost never use Toxic of any kind on my offensive teams. But I suppose I can start putting Toxic on my sweepers and hope none of them die before Lugia does, or that Lugia isn't running Resttalk/other status-prevention methods.

Basically, CBTar's Crunch is our best hope: 63.9% - 75.5%

Lugia: oh hello i am faster than you will ever be *reflects*

This is not OU material. :/

 

[Farukon_o_miru]

What exactly can "shut down" a Rain team with Perma-rain?

When you make a team, Do you worry that it can effectively "shut down" all the playstyles and teams of the metagame?, because, seriusly, if it is you playstyle you will have a hard time playing in the 5th gen metagame...

 

[Rhiehn]

Rain is broken, not the abusers. Rain has so many abusers, to neuter rain to the point where it isn't going to destroy a non-weather team would require banning half a dozen or more pokes. Sun is probably broken too, but the fact that rain is so much better keeps it from being used often. Sand is not however, there are 2 notable sand abusers in Dory and Landlos, sand only really helps those that have an ability related to it, while rain boosts anything with a fire weakness, thunder, hurricane a water move or a rain related ability. Sun is similar, though inferior because rain related abilities are usually on water types, while sun related abilities are often on grass types.

 

[Green Thunder]

@Rhiehn- I would just like to say that Dory and mustache-guy are NOT the only abusers of sand, that is far from true. Did Garchomp, gliscor, (dreamworld) hippowdon, sandslash, cacturne, and cradily just implode?

 

[TheValkyries]

What exactly can "shut down" a Rain team with Perma-rain?

Build a rain team, and find out. I don't feel like getting into a pointless argument about how Nattorei, Burungeru, Blissey, and others can wipe out a rain team, because that proves nothing to anyone. When you show me an unbeatable rain team, I'll call it broken.

 

[Chou Toshio]

For the record, from my experience, if a rain team can keep rain up, it will win. Also, when I tried playing rain, my odds of winning when fighting non-rain were extremely high-- the only thing I hated about playing rain, was that the very difficult mirror matchups against other rain teams (which really did come down to luck and somewhat to the degree of anti-rain you were able to squeeze in) was not conducive to laddering.

Even if you had a nattorei or something on your rain team, beating an enemy rain team was never easy (especially when it's perma rain and Specs Kingdra, the set many of the higher ranked players used, 2 HKO'd Nattorei with Hydro Pump).

 

[alexwolf]

Yes, and Deoxys-A is a horrible, horrible, horrible wall. Blissey is a horrible defense against mono fighting teams. Flash fire shandera can't hope to touch Porygon2 with trace. I'm not sure what this statement is supposed to prove. Aside from the fact that pokemon have counters and not every pokemon can do everything.

true!!!i don't understand either why are some people saying that nattorei can't to anything against sun teams???it's just a so uselees statement...every poke has a disadvantage to something he is 4x weak...and sun teams aren't so used when in the other hand rain and sand teams are used a lot more often and nattorei handles them both quite nice...

 

[fidgety]

generally when i see a lead politoad i shift my specks-gar to the front seeing as i play sand if can ko toad i'm in great position + bulkier sets are 2 shoted w/ tbolt easily.

 

[November Blue]

Maybe Lugia in OU would be worth a go.

I'm trying him out now. He's running a swiftnite build, and he functions in much the same way. Got KOed at around 60ish percent by an unboosted thunderbolt from a zapdos, which really suprised me.

SJcrews, I think multiscale lugia is worth discussing. 90/90 offenses don't scream broken, and his hp is only base 106. It's high, but not outrageous like giratinas base 150. He also has a bad set of weaknesses in rock, ghost, electric, ice and dark.

There, I've made him sound kinda bad. I'll report back after I test some more.

 

[fidgety]

Maybe Lugia in OU would be worth a go.

I'm trying him out now. He's running a swiftnite build, and he functions in much the same way. Got KOed at around 60ish percent by an unboosted thunderbolt from a zapdos, which really suprised me.

SJcrews, I think multiscale lugia is worth discussing. 90/90 offenses don't scream broken, and his hp is only base 106. It's high, but not outrageous like giratinas base 150. He also has a bad set of weaknesses in rock, ghost, electric, ice and dark.

There, I've made him sound kinda bad. I'll report back after I test some more.

yea 1 of the most effecitive uber walls is healthy for ou how.

 

[November Blue]

yea 1 of the most effecitive uber walls is healthy for ou how.

After reading through the reasons you just listed, I agree with you. You make a very persuasive argument.

How? He's a bulkier latias with lesser offensive stats and worse typing. Kinda reminds me of cresselia actually.

Instead of saying "no, it's an uber" why not entertain the possibility of a suspect test. If rain is so unbearable, pit lugia against it and see what happens.

Lugia Vs. cress is kinda interesting actually. Nobody uses cresselia for some reason, but she has what is arguably the best defensive stat distribution in the game. 120/120/130 holds second place for balanced defensive stats, behind giratina-A (150/120/120,) and beating arceus (you know this one.) The HP is key here, being much higher than lugias, it would probably round out to roughly the same amount of bulk given lugias higher stats. Bar multiscale, cress probably has better physical bulk than lugia too. 120/120 psychic + levitate looks better on paper than 106/130 psychic/flying.

I use swiftnite as a lead, so passive damage is largely avoidable unless I phaze in a hippo/ttar. Lugia used as a wall wouldn't have the same luck IMO. Sand and rocks could already be up, so multiscale wouldn't be very reliable switching in. He'd need spin support.

EDIT: "lugias" is annyoing me. I feel like there needs to be an apostrophe somewhere. Lugias' Anyone?

 

[fidgety]

After reading through the reasons you just listed, I agree with you. You make a very persuasive argument.

How? He's a bulkier latias with lesser offensive stats and worse typing. Kinda reminds me of cresselia actually.

Instead of saying "no, it's an uber" why not entertain the possibility of a suspect test. If rain is so unbearable, pit lugia against it and see what happens.

Lugia Vs. cress is kinda interesting actually. Nobody uses cresselia for some reason, but she has what is arguably the best defensive stat distribution in the game. 120/120/130 holds second place for balanced defensive stats, behind giratina-A (150/120/120,) and beating arceus (you know this one.) The HP is key here, being much higher than lugias, it would probably round out to roughly the same amount of bulk given lugias higher stats. Bar multiscale, cress probably has better physical bulk than lugia too. 120/120 psychic + levitate looks better on paper than 106/130 psychic/flying.

I use swiftnite as a lead, so passive damage is largely avoidable unless I phaze in a hippo/ttar. Lugia used as a wall wouldn't have the same luck IMO. Sand and rocks could already be up, so multiscale wouldn't be very reliable switching in. He'd need spin support.

EDIT: "lugias" is annyoing me. I feel like there needs to be an apostrophe somewhere. Lugias' Anyone?

1.lugia has a 110 speed stat most of the top offensive ou pokes are out-sped.
2.special defense that only is seen in ou w/ specially defensive t-tar in sand w/ better hp.
3.RELIABLE RECOVERY cress has 2 use moonlight lot of good that does in a meta full of rain + sand + giratina/cune have 2 use rest.
4.passable attacking stats unlike cress or deoxys-d.
5.130 defense means it can be an amazing double wall in UBERS, ou pokes will struggle 2 break it just as uu had 2 ban cress 4 the same reason.

 

[JSND]

does anyone can stop saying lugia si good for defensive purpose etcetera ?
stop talking like you saying lugia is only good defensively
in OU hes an offensive beast. Imagine lugi in OU and his effect ?

Roobushin is his breakfast and it make defensive special wall more needed than before.
Comparing cress to lugia is stupid seriously. Cress is taunt bait but luigia can at least move before getting taunted.

His typing is good defensively and it basicaly forces ttar etc to be on the team unless you want to get swept by lugia.
90 maybe mediocre but 110 speed and his defensive stats is isnt.
Add the fact he has CM AND SPEED TIE with latias and latios and you realize hes not as weak as you thought

AND lugia is one of the best rain sweeper in uber with CM dont hope in OU he doesnt wreck shit. Hes not OU material at all. I can bet when you put lugia, your replaying the latias in gen 4 cases

remember cress is slow. Speed is relevant in walling in many cases. And with his godly stats, being offensive beast for such a defensive wall IS viable seeing he has 110 speed AND 90 offense WHICH IS ENOUGH for offensive role

also this apply to Pressure lugia. Even with MS i PREFER PRESSURE BETTER. Pressure 2 pp is annoying in deoxys-D. In lugia its even more insane seeing he can play offensive role with CM.

 

[Farukon_o_miru]

Don`t forget that Lugia can be really annoying in OU with 110 base speed, high defense and HP stats, amazing sp. def, and decent offensive stats, it have access to both screens, T-wave, a reliable recovery move, Dragon Tail and Multiscale, and you can use Safeguard if you are worried about Toxic, it can also boost up its dangerous special defense and decent special attack with Calm Mind, and after it you can sweep with moves like Surf, Weather Ball, T-bolt, Psycho Shock, Ice Beam, Shadow Ball and/or Psychic.

 

[fidgety]

does anyone can stop saying lugia si good for defensive purpose etcetera ?
stop talking like you saying lugia is only good defensively
in OU hes an offensive beast. Imagine lugi in OU and his effect ?

Roobushin is his breakfast and it make defensive special wall more needed than before.
Comparing cress to lugia is stupid seriously. Cress is taunt bait but luigia can at least move before getting taunted.

His typing is good defensively and it basicaly forces ttar etc to be on the team unless you want to get swept by lugia.
90 maybe mediocre but 110 speed and his defensive stats is isnt.
Add the fact he has CM AND SPEED TIE with latias and latios and you realize hes not as weak as you thought

AND lugia is one of the best rain sweeper in uber with CM dont hope in OU he doesnt wreck shit. Hes not OU material at all. I can bet when you put lugia, your replaying the latias in gen 4 cases

remember cress is slow. Speed is relevant in walling in many cases. And with his godly stats, being offensive beast for such a defensive wall IS viable seeing he has 110 speed AND 90 offense WHICH IS ENOUGH for offensive role

also this apply to Pressure lugia. Even with MS i PREFER PRESSURE BETTER. Pressure 2 pp is annoying in deoxys-D. In lugia its even more insane seeing he can play offensive role with CM.

i totally didn't mention most of this in my last post.

 

[JSND]

seriously in ubers lugia is an offensive powerhouse if latias didnt exist but with 150 abse and zekrom everywhere, it have hard time. In OU, not only theres no zekrom, his 90 base is high enough AND hes fast(no, wall do need speed. Speed is relevant both in stall and offense). I have tried how annoying deoxys-D is(he has knock off for the win though)
i cant imagine how abviously more annoying lugia is especialy as an anti-sweeper

 

[fidgety]

seriously in ubers lugia is an offensive powerhouse if latias didnt exist but with 150 abse and zekrom everywhere, it have hard time. In OU, not only theres no zekrom, his 90 base is high enough AND hes fast(no, wall do need speed. Speed is relevant both in stall and offense). I have tried how annoying deoxys-D is(he has knock off for the win though)
i cant imagine how abviously more annoying lugia is especialy as an anti-sweeper

i never said walls don't need speed.

 

[JSND]

nope i just mention that many says walls didnt need speed and its irelevant.
Youll be surprised at how stall mew is so effective mostly due to 100 speed(and its a wall)

 

[fidgety]

well sounds like it's agreed we're not bringing lugia down. although we really should try 2 balance the present meta b4 bringing bown other pokes anyway.

 

[XienZo]

well sounds like it's agreed we're not bringing lugia down. although we really should try 2 balance the present meta b4 bringing bown other pokes anyway.

Well, it's not about what "we" agree about, though. If anyone can actually bring up a decent argument to bring Lugia down in the nomination thread, we might have a suspect test for Lugia.

At the moment, though, no one's brought up any solid arguments for it being ok in OU.

 

[fidgety]

Well, it's not about what "we" agree about, though. If anyone can actually bring up a decent argument to bring Lugia down in the nomination thread, we might have a suspect test for Lugia.

At the moment, though, no one's brought up any solid arguments for it being ok in OU.

is there such arguement? i doubt it.

 

[BlueEyesWhiteNite]

A lot of people say that Lugia is not "OU material" because they think it's impossible to break. In 4th Gen this was very true, but now Lugia crumbles a lot easier. Here is a list of ways to counter him and prove that he is worth testing

*The first way is Toxic. Once It hits Lugia's time on the field is limited. This easily ruins the CM sweeper version of Lugia, forcing it to swich every so often just to stay alive. I know Lugia can have moves like safeguard, substitute, or Rest and sleep talk, but how many Lugia's do you see running around with sets like that. The most common sets for Lugia are the CM sweeper set with Calm Mind, Roost, Whirlwind/Dragon Tail, Ice Beam or the Great Wall set with Reflect/Light Screen, Roost, Whirlwind/Dragon Tail, Ice Beam.

*Another way is to put it to sleep. With the new BW sleep changes most of the time when a pokemon is put to sleep, it's out for the rest of the match. And I don't see Lugia being any exception to this. Once asleep it will be easy to kill since it won't be able to roost.

*Darkrai is an excellent check for Lugia It easily 2HKOs with Dark Pulse and that's before it nasty plots.

*Another Pokemon that can kill Lugia is a Choice Specs Kingdra in the rain.

*Lugia also does not appreciate a sneak attack night burst from a zoroark in disguise. A night Burst form a timid zoroark can 2HKO a common Lugia set.

*Choice Banded T-tar I belive OHKOs Lugia with out a screen with stone edge.

*Also Sazandora 2HKOs Lugia with dark pulse.

See there are pokes that can take it out. Few can do it in one hit, but plenty can do it in 2. I didn't list all of them off the top of my head because my little sis is begging me for the computer... so I gotta go, but feel free to list more pokes that can stop it.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

*The first way is Toxic.

It exists since Red/Green.

*Another way is to put it to sleep.

It exists since Red/Green.

With the new BW sleep changes most of the time when a pokemon is put to sleep, it's out for the rest of the match. And I don't see Lugia being any exception to this. Once asleep it will be easy to kill since it won't be able to roost.

This works for every Uber.

*Darkrai is an excellent check for Lugia It easily 2HKOs with Dark Pulse and that's before it nasty plots.

Light Screen, Thunder Wave, Calm Mind.

*Another Pokemon that can kill Lugia is a Choice Specs Kingdra in the rain.

Light Screen, Thund--wait both pokémon you listed are being nominated, the former having high chances of getting booted...

*Lugia also does not appreciate a sneak attack night burst from a zoroark in disguise. A night Burst form a timid zoroark can 2HKO a common Lugia set.

Lugia is faster, so Light Screen, Thunder Wave, Calm Mind...

*Choice Banded T-tar I belive OHKOs Lugia with out a screen with stone edge.

0 EVs neutral Lugia is faster so... Reflect, Roost, Pressure...

*Also Sazandora 2HKOs Lugia with dark pulse.

...But Lugia's faster. And Sazandora can't have both Specs and Scarf, so he's going to get a bit outstalled by Light Screen + Roost + Pressure.

See there are pokes that can take it out. Few can do it in one hit, but plenty can do it in 2. I didn't list all of them off the top of my head because my little sis is begging me for the computer... so I gotta go, but feel free to list more pokes that can stop it.

I have compiled a list of all the pokémon that can 2HKO Lugia and not get fucked by Roost, Pressure and Screens:











Doryuuzu










hahah just kidding LO Rock Slide does 34.6% - 40.9% on max/max Bold Lugia without Reflect hahahah

 

[fidgety]

A lot of people say that Lugia is not "OU material" because they think it's impossible to break. In 4th Gen this was very true, but now Lugia crumbles a lot easier. Here is a list of ways to counter him and prove that he is worth testing

*The first way is Toxic. Once It hits Lugia's time on the field is limited. This easily ruins the CM sweeper version of Lugia, forcing it to swich every so often just to stay alive. I know Lugia can have moves like safeguard, substitute, or Rest and sleep talk, but how many Lugia's do you see running around with sets like that. The most common sets for Lugia are the CM sweeper set with Calm Mind, Roost, Whirlwind/Dragon Tail, Ice Beam or the Great Wall set with Reflect/Light Screen, Roost, Whirlwind/Dragon Tail, Ice Beam.

*Another way is to put it to sleep. With the new BW sleep changes most of the time when a pokemon is put to sleep, it's out for the rest of the match. And I don't see Lugia being any exception to this. Once asleep it will be easy to kill since it won't be able to roost.

*Darkrai is an excellent check for Lugia It easily 2HKOs with Dark Pulse and that's before it nasty plots.

*Another Pokemon that can kill Lugia is a Choice Specs Kingdra in the rain.

*Lugia also does not appreciate a sneak attack night burst from a zoroark in disguise. A night Burst form a timid zoroark can 2HKO a common Lugia set.

*Choice Banded T-tar I belive OHKOs Lugia with out a screen with stone edge.

*Also Sazandora 2HKOs Lugia with dark pulse.

See there are pokes that can take it out. Few can do it in one hit, but plenty can do it in 2. I didn't list all of them off the top of my head because my little sis is begging me for the computer... so I gotta go, but feel free to list more pokes that can stop it.

let's see you mentioned a strat full offense would never use.
2 suspects kingdra + darkrai.
so that is 3-4 ways + let's see u aren't even sure about 1 especially since if u r wrong about tar u get stalled out.
y would lugia stay in on sazandora
+ zoroark is easily desposed of by any self respecting user of mach punch or vacuum wave or most viable fighting types.

 

[Forte.EXE]

I don't feel like getting into a pointless argument about how Nattorei, Burungeru, Blissey, and others can wipe out a rain team, because that proves nothing to anyone.

I find it funny you mention those three when a standard Swords Dance Toxicroak destroys all three in the Rain. And, GASP, Toxicroak is a viable member of a Rain Dance team.