np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[SJCrew]

What are you guys, on crack? The metagame we have right now is the biggest shithole ever (EX: top ladder is basically Inconsistent + Rain, mid ladder is Shaymin/Darkrai spam) and you're pining for Lugia? I sincerely hope no one competent starts thinking about Lugia in OU. I will have that shit on every team.

+ zoroark is easily desposed of by any self respecting user of mach punch or vacuum wave or most viable fighting types.

Zoroark is never "easily disposed of", he uses Illlusion.

I find it funny you mention those three when a standard Swords Dance Toxicroak destroys all three in the Rain. And, GASP, Toxicroak is a viable member of a Rain Dance team.

this this this this this this

 

[Arc Tech]

The only way Lugia could be OU is if we bring down all the other Ubers as well. (AKA the test-all people finally win) (P.S. I support testing everything). But I doubt we'd get a suspect ladder with all of them until after we get a stable OU ladder, and it will be a side suspect ladder rather than the standard ladder.

 

[SJCrew]

The only way Lugia could be OU is if we bring down all the other Ubers as well. (AKA the test-all people finally win) (P.S. I support testing everything). But I doubt we'd get a suspect ladder with all of them until after we get a stable OU ladder, and it will be a side suspect ladder rather than the standard ladder.

Actually, that's a way better compromise than "test everything from the start", as a lot of you guys were going on about in the poll. But then again, I still think testing Kyogre, Groudon, Mewtwo and the like is counterproductive. Some of these guys have zero counters even in Ubers (read: Mewtwo). :/

 

[JSND]

Okat Lugia

Toxic : The lugia user can use sub, safeguard or even worse switch in doryuuzu
Put it to sleep : Darkrai IS Lugia's best check ever since fourth gen and hes uber last gen. EVEN worse hes a controversial pokemon in OU already
Zoroark, Ttar, etc etc etc is SLOWER THAN LUGIA WHICH IS VERY CRUCIAL
Sazandora dont apreciate getting T-Waved and Screened(if he carry it) or EVEN worse
getting in on CM and getting Pulsed and beamed
Kingdra 2HKO it but he has 4 chance and if only 1 misss, youre done for. Not something i would rely on for beating Lugia. If he has CM up your more done for than before.

I know you want to have OU lugia to have easier time but in fact, Lugia in OU would just bring the same effect that Latias brought in last gen. Short term it feels good. Long term it just too crazy. It make fighting type unviable and dory(sand) more dominating than it is now since not only ttar serve as good check to Lugia, Lugia can beat roopushin and Rain has Lugia for their new member doing CM sweeper in rain.
AS A BONUS in rain Toxicroak SD(a set i always use in rain lol) with taunt and Manaphy
can switch on your useless toxic and set up. AND if you dont know, PO have put lugia in OU and if you dont know lugia is deemed too over broken in total of 1 DAY. Yeah its PO not smogon but that really show something

 

[November Blue]

I really don't know why you're all arguing that lugias bulk is a bad thing. Last time I checked, surviving hits is what a wall is supposed to do. If the metagame is too powerful, to handle ATM, we obviously need more walls. To me, this seems like a much better solution than banning everything remotely threatening.

Lugia won't run max speed IMO. Look at latias, her wall sets usually run 307 speed (admittedly, this could change though.) I really think we should test him.

Brace yourselves for this one:

Ho-oh in OU.

Yeah, I'm completely serious. I've thought for the longest time that ho-oh should be tested. Put down your molotovs and hear me out, okay?

Fire/flying typing.

When was the last time you saw an ulgamoth? A moltres? Charizard? Ho-oh in ubers? Stealth rock is still abundant, and rapid spinners are commonly eschewed for pokes with no (quad) rock weakness. Rain is everywhere and everything has stone edge. sure, Ho-oh is powerful, but there's every chance it will fall into BL if brought down.

130/110/90 offensive stats

Really nothing special anymore. Hihidaruma has 140/95 attack and speed, and his encourage flare blitz is far stronger than anything ho-oh can muster. There are lots of pokemon with better offensive stats (salamence, archeos, kyurem, azelf....) You can't say that ho-oh is too powerful for OU with hihi running around. He's not rayquaza.

106/90/154 defensive stats

90 defense and a quad weakness to rock really isn't doing ho-oh any favors. Sure, the special defense is high, but he's not impenetrable. Just ask regice. 106 hp is almost always going to be uninvested, so you get 353 hp. That's not amazingly high, and with 90 base defense the only rock type attack that's not giving you trouble is power gem. If we can handle sand veil garchomp this gen, surely we can handle ho-oh?

Relatively slow, lack of priority, weakness to passive damage.

How can ho-oh wall stuff with recover if it's slower than half the metagame? How can it survive hits with only 50% of it's max health? As I said before, the SR weak is too big to ignore.

We let mew down. No trouble. Kyurem is OU, with arguably better stats and typing. No trouble. How is ho-oh any different? You can jump up and down and point at his uber tag and BST, but special defense aside, he's really nothing special for an uber.

Oh, and I'm not going to mention regeneration, because someone will tell me I'm making up imaginary pokemon.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Have you played much Ubers, JT?

How exactly is anything going to stop SubRoost Ho-Oh in OU? It's not that hard to keep SR off the field long enough to do ridiculous amounts of damage, or spin it away once it is laid. Crucially, Ho-Oh can actually come in on most Stealth Rock users and set up a Sub or fire off a lethal Sacred Fire. It can Roost off hits from pretty much everything slower than it. Very little is safe from the power of its Sacred Fire, with the 50% burn chance screwing over pretty much everything. Pressure stalling makes it even worse.

Calcs with 216 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Spe Ho-Oh:
Stop it coming in and setting up?
0 SpA Burungeru Boiling Water: 25.6% - 31%
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird: 14.3% - 17.2%

Check / revenge it?
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor: 57.7% - 68.1% (almost never a 2HKO without Rocks)
252 SpA Suicune Surf: 41.3% - 48.6%
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage: 26.5% - 31.2% (!!!!!)
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge: 59% - 69.8%
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge (Roost): 29.5% - 34.9%
252 SpA Salamence Life Orb Draco Meteor: 45% - 53.1%
4 Atk Salamence Outrage: 29% - 34.6%
252 SpA Life Orb Borutorosu Volt Change: 49.1% - 58%

Offensive calcs (assume Life Orb):
Sacred Fire
180 HP Tyranitar: 28% - 32.9% (looking at a 2HKO with burn and SR)
252 HP / 152 Def Impish Hippowdon: 36% - 42.4% (2HKO with Burn)
0 HP Garchomp: 34.1% - 40.2%

Brave Bird
0 HP Manaphy: 54.8% - 64.8%
252 HP Manaphy: 46.3% - 54.7%

 

[fidgety]

I really don't know why you're all arguing that lugias bulk is a bad thing. Last time I checked, surviving hits is what a wall is supposed to do. If the metagame is too powerful, to handle ATM, we obviously need more walls. To me, this seems like a much better solution than banning everything remotely threatening.

Lugia won't run max speed IMO. Look at latias, her wall sets usually run 307 speed (admittedly, this could change though.) I really think we should test him.

Brace yourselves for this one:

Ho-oh in OU.

Yeah, I'm completely serious. I've thought for the longest time that ho-oh should be tested. Put down your molotovs and hear me out, okay?

Fire/flying typing.

When was the last time you saw an ulgamoth? A moltres? Charizard? Ho-oh in ubers? Stealth rock is still abundant, and rapid spinners are commonly eschewed for pokes with no (quad) rock weakness. Rain is everywhere and everything has stone edge. sure, Ho-oh is powerful, but there's every chance it will fall into BL if brought down.

130/110/90 offensive stats

Really nothing special anymore. Hihidaruma has 140/95 attack and speed, and his encourage flare blitz is far stronger than anything ho-oh can muster. There are lots of pokemon with better offensive stats (salamence, archeos, kyurem, azelf....) You can't say that ho-oh is too powerful for OU with hihi running around. He's not rayquaza.

106/90/154 defensive stats

90 defense and a quad weakness to rock really isn't doing ho-oh any favors. Sure, the special defense is high, but he's not impenetrable. Just ask regice. 106 hp is almost always going to be uninvested, so you get 353 hp. That's not amazingly high, and with 90 base defense the only rock type attack that's not giving you trouble is power gem. If we can handle sand veil garchomp this gen, surely we can handle ho-oh?

Relatively slow, lack of priority, weakness to passive damage.

How can ho-oh wall stuff with recover if it's slower than half the metagame? How can it survive hits with only 50% of it's max health? As I said before, the SR weak is too big to ignore.

We let mew down. No trouble. Kyurem is OU, with arguably better stats and typing. No trouble. How is ho-oh any different? You can jump up and down and point at his uber tag and BST, but special defense aside, he's really nothing special for an uber.

Oh, and I'm not going to mention regeneration, because someone will tell me I'm making up imaginary pokemon.

1.ho-oh can reduce it's weakness 2 rock + get half it's hp back.
2.ho-oh has a move that burns every other hit.
3.dream world it get regeneration so instead of 2 switches w/o healing it gets 5 + still has recover.
4.of moltres, charizard, ulugamoth (who i see enough generally as leads it is ou if u use PO's statistics since smogon doesn't have yet 4 gen 5), + kyurem the only 1 that can get that hp back is moltres who doesn't have ho-oh's raw power.
5.mence rarely can spare a slot 4 roost + the rest u mentioned don't even get recovery moves.
6.archeos is useless after it falls below 50% dues 2 it's ability.
7.hihidurama can be walled ho-oh has very good coverage between sacred fire + brave bird + eq/nitro charge + roost(recover if regeneration or eq/nitro charge w/ lefties) also sun will have a huge boost if ho-oh comes down.
8.kyurem is walled 2 oblivion by bronzong + is koed back by gyro ball or smart play + can't stall it out ho-oh is exceedingly hard 2 wall period end of story.
9.how is azelf offensively superior 125/125/115 yes but compare move pools ho-oh has numerous advantages many of which have already been mentioned + nitro charge to fix it's speed, eq, iron head off of a superior attack stat (as of when did ho-oh use it's special attack stat any way) on top of better bulk.
10.as of when was stone edge reliable.
while it's a better arguement than u posted 4 lugia it still has a lot of holes stats aren't everything ho-oh ain't gonna see ou if u look @ the big picture + not just the base attributes.

 

[November Blue]

Have you played much Ubers, JT? No, I haven't. I have little to no experience with either of them, which is why I'm testing them now. Lugia is actually pretty manageable at this point. He doesn't feel much better than cresselia to be honest.

Calcs with 216 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Spe Ho-Oh:
Stop it coming in and setting up?
0 SpA Burungeru Boiling Water: 25.6% - 31%
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird: 14.3% - 17.2%

Check / revenge it?
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor: 57.7% - 68.1% (almost never a 2HKO without Rocks)
252 SpA Suicune Surf: 41.3% - 48.6%
252 Atk Garchomp Outrage: 26.5% - 31.2% (!!!!!)
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge: 59% - 69.8%
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge (Roost): 29.5% - 34.9%
252 SpA Salamence Life Orb Draco Meteor: 45% - 53.1%
4 Atk Salamence Outrage: 29% - 34.6%
252 SpA Life Orb Borutorosu Volt Change: 49.1% - 58%

These calcs look pretty biased to me. The set you're using is slow, so most of these 2HKOs are possible. You're using a lot of special attacks too. Physical hits have a much better chance of KOing. Even then, I'm having trouble believing those garchomp calcs. Voltolos' thunder looks like a OHKO, why use volt change?

Offensive calcs (assume Life Orb):
Sacred Fire
180 HP Tyranitar: 28% - 32.9% (looking at a 2HKO with burn and SR)
252 HP / 152 Def Impish Hippowdon: 36% - 42.4% (2HKO with Burn)
0 HP Garchomp: 34.1% - 40.2%

Sandstream Tyranitar looks pretty good. How much does stone edge do?

Brave Bird
0 HP Manaphy: 54.8% - 64.8%
252 HP Manaphy: 46.3% - 54.7%

 

[B-Lulz]

He is using the standard Gen 4 Ubers set, it isn't biased at all. I think the fact that Latios can barely 2HKO that set with its strongest attack shows how ridiculous Ho-Oh would be.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Yeah those Garchomp calcs were at -2 for some reason.

It's irrelevant how much damage Stone Edge does because you can just Sub and PP stall it.

Basically what are you going to switch into Ho-Oh when it comes in on your Nattorei or Burungeru or Skarmory or <defensive mon>?

The calcs are specially biased because very few physical attackers are capable of switching into Ho-Oh.

 

[November Blue]

On an unrelated note, someone in policy review suggested banning dark void instead of darkrai. Hypnosis darkrai sounds good to me. What do you all think?

Fuck banning spore though. Breloom and morobareru don't need to be nerfed.

Also, as a point of reference, the following pokes from the initial banlist are, IMO, not OU viable, and too powerful for a suspect test:


Arceus
Dialga
Giratina
Kyogre
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram

These ones I'm not sure about.

Zekrom
Groudon

 

[j99ubers]

On an unrelated note, someone in policy review suggested banning dark void instead of darkrai. Hypnosis darkrai sounds good to me. What do you all think?

Fuck banning spore though. Breloom and morobareru don't need to be nerfed.

Also, as a point of reference, the following pokes from the initial banlist are, IMO, not OU viable, and too powerful for a suspect test:


Arceus
Dialga
Giratina
Kyogre
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram

These ones I'm not sure about.

Zekrom
Groudon

You can't be serious, Defensive Groudon could tank pretty much every physical hit in OU, whilst at the same time threatening to set up with RP and sweep the entire tier. Zekrom is just as bad since its Dual Stabs are almost impossible to wall, even in ubers, and any physical wall will have to take a Draco Meteor from a Base 120 stat. There is literally no way that either could be brought down. Add to this that Groudon is a weather starter sun teams would absolutely run riot in OU.

 

[alexwolf]

A lot of people say that Lugia is not "OU material" because they think it's impossible to break. In 4th Gen this was very true, but now Lugia crumbles a lot easier. Here is a list of ways to counter him and prove that he is worth testing

*The first way is Toxic. Once It hits Lugia's time on the field is limited. This easily ruins the CM sweeper version of Lugia, forcing it to swich every so often just to stay alive. I know Lugia can have moves like safeguard, substitute, or Rest and sleep talk, but how many Lugia's do you see running around with sets like that. The most common sets for Lugia are the CM sweeper set with Calm Mind, Roost, Whirlwind/Dragon Tail, Ice Beam or the Great Wall set with Reflect/Light Screen, Roost, Whirlwind/Dragon Tail, Ice Beam.

*Another way is to put it to sleep. With the new BW sleep changes most of the time when a pokemon is put to sleep, it's out for the rest of the match. And I don't see Lugia being any exception to this. Once asleep it will be easy to kill since it won't be able to roost.

*Darkrai is an excellent check for Lugia It easily 2HKOs with Dark Pulse and that's before it nasty plots.

*Another Pokemon that can kill Lugia is a Choice Specs Kingdra in the rain.

*Lugia also does not appreciate a sneak attack night burst from a zoroark in disguise. A night Burst form a timid zoroark can 2HKO a common Lugia set.

*Choice Banded T-tar I belive OHKOs Lugia with out a screen with stone edge.

*Also Sazandora 2HKOs Lugia with dark pulse.

See there are pokes that can take it out. Few can do it in one hit, but plenty can do it in 2. I didn't list all of them off the top of my head because my little sis is begging me for the computer... so I gotta go, but feel free to list more pokes that can stop it.

sry if i will be a little bit insulting but the arguments above are the worst i have ever read...let's see them one by one:toxic...so u say that lugia can be countered because of a status condtition that can be used also on almost every other uber so let's bring them all in ou since they can be countered by toxic...just ridiculous...not to mention that in some point of ur post u write the 2 most used sets of lugia in ubers and then u mention her counters...who told u that if lugia ever fell down to ou she will use the same sets...that's just ridiculous way of thinking...ur second arguement is that she can be put to sleep..i m not even going to comment this(every uber is ou because it can be put to sleep).after this u present as a counter to lugia a poke that will be moved to ubers in time no less than one 3 weeks(darkrai).ur next proposal is maybe the only one that has some elements of truth but still...yes kingdra can 2hko lugia in rain IF she is not running light screen(which would be a possible option if lugia ever came down to ou to counter kingdra and a lot of special attackers...).on to the next argument:bandtar can 1hko lugia with stone edge...this is really the epitome of ur ignorance.lugia is always faster than ttar and can roost or reflect to halve the damage and pp stall with pressure...and it doesnt ohko if lugia runs some defence evs which she will always do IF she comes down to ou.and last lugia can just twave sazandora and heal the damage later so again ur point is moot...that's all i had to say...lugia is a monster so go and play some ubers to realize urself...

 

[Farukon_o_miru]

On an unrelated note, someone in policy review suggested banning dark void instead of darkrai. Hypnosis darkrai sounds good to me. What do you all think?

Fuck banning spore though. Breloom and morobareru don't need to be nerfed.

Also, as a point of reference, the following pokes from the initial banlist are, IMO, not OU viable, and too powerful for a suspect test:


Arceus
Dialga
Giratina
Kyogre
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram

These ones I'm not sure about.

Zekrom
Groudon

You can´t be speaking seriously... we are just emerging from a discussion about if auto-weather pokemons are broken or not, and you come with the idea of that Groudon can be viable in OU... if you want to argue that a pokemon can be viable in OU, you should first see something more than the stats of the pokemon, you must see its moves, abilities and STAB attacks (and the coverage of Zekrom and its attacks is at least threatening for OU).

 

[Citizen]

EDIT: @alexwolf, I always forget to quote :/

nonono. Ludicolo is an extremely capable sweeper under rain, probably the best weather special sweeper there is (not saying a lot though). A LO set consisting of something like Energy Ball / Surf / Ice Beam / Focus Blast is walled by nothing (but Blissey but come on, who even uses Blissey anymore) and outspeeds everything while not giving a shit about priority (unless LO has taken it's toll, then Roobushin would be annoying. But by then Ludi would've taken at least 2 pokes down with it). STAB LO Surf under the rain fucks shit up, as does STAB Energy Ball (especially to Hippowdon).

And lawl, you sure a LO Focus Blast that is 4x effective backed by 90 SpA can't ko a Tyranitar even with sandstorm's SpDef boost? Even if it doesn't KO, it would be doing a huge amount, crippling the opponent's sand tactics are adding a large advantage to the rain team. Ludicolo also doesn't care about Ditto either, as Scarfed Energy Ball just doesn't cut it while Ditto's meager HP is cut down by Energy Ball backed by Life Orb.

tl:dr Ludicolo is a bamf and will fuck your shit. Prove me wrong.

Calcs (Modest, 252)

Focus Blast on 4/0 Scarftar: 113.5% - 134.5%
Focus Blast on 252/252 Tar (lol): 69.3% - 82.2%
Energy Ball on 252/252 Hippowdon: 67.1% - 79%
Focus Blast on 252/0 Nattorei: 65.9% - 77.8%
Focus Blast on 252/252 (lol) Nattorei: 59.1% - 69.9%
Surf (Rain) on 252/0 Skarmory: 103.3% - 121.6%
Energy Ball on 252/252 Burungeru: 55% - 65%
Surf (Rain) on 252/252 Roobushin: 64% - 75.6%

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I really don't know why you're all arguing that lugias bulk is a bad thing. Last time I checked, surviving hits is what a wall is supposed to do. If the metagame is too powerful, to handle ATM, we obviously need more walls. To me, this seems like a much better solution than banning everything remotely threatening.

Lugia won't run max speed IMO. Look at latias, her wall sets usually run 307 speed (admittedly, this could change though.) I really think we should test him.

Brace yourselves for this one:

Ho-oh in OU.

Yeah, I'm completely serious.

No you're not, you have just given up on Lugia and you have admitted before to have never played Ubers. Stealth Rock is not a reason, 90 Speed is not a reason, 90 Defense is not a reason. You must be fucking joking, sorry, stop playing theorymon for a while and go see how much of a monster Ho-oh and Lugia are.

 

[reachzero]

I have a hard time seeing Lugia surviving even one round of testing, not because of its stand-alone sets but because of how utterly unbreakable it would make stall. Practically anything that can actually threaten a Roost/HP Flying/Reflect/Whirlwind Lugia is handled easily by Hippowdon or Blissey (with Heal Bell/Aromatherapy). Any defensive Pokemon can be beaten one-on-one if you're dedicated to breaking it no matter what. The harder part is dealing with the Pokemon in the context of a team, especially a stall team. By modifying certain Pokemon to deal intentionally with Lugia, you often make your team easier to handle for Hippowdon, Blissey, etc.

 

[Forte.EXE]

EDIT: @alexwolf, I always forget to quote :/

nonono. Ludicolo is an extremely capable sweeper under rain, probably the best weather special sweeper there is (not saying a lot though). A LO set consisting of something like Energy Ball / Surf / Ice Beam / Focus Blast is walled by nothing (but Blissey but come on, who even uses Blissey anymore) and outspeeds everything while not giving a shit about priority (unless LO has taken it's toll, then Roobushin would be annoying. But by then Ludi would've taken at least 2 pokes down with it). STAB LO Surf under the rain fucks shit up, as does STAB Energy Ball (especially to Hippowdon).

And lawl, you sure a LO Focus Blast that is 4x effective backed by 90 SpA can't ko a Tyranitar even with sandstorm's SpDef boost? Even if it doesn't KO, it would be doing a huge amount, crippling the opponent's sand tactics are adding a large advantage to the rain team. Ludicolo also doesn't care about Ditto either, as Scarfed Energy Ball just doesn't cut it while Ditto's meager HP is cut down by Energy Ball backed by Life Orb.

tl:dr Ludicolo is a bamf and will fuck your shit. Prove me wrong.

Calcs (Modest, 252)

Focus Blast on 4/0 Scarftar: 113.5% - 134.5%
Focus Blast on 252/252 Tar (lol): 69.3% - 82.2%
Energy Ball on 252/252 Hippowdon: 67.1% - 79%
Focus Blast on 252/0 Nattorei: 65.9% - 77.8%
Focus Blast on 252/252 (lol) Nattorei: 59.1% - 69.9%
Surf (Rain) on 252/0 Skarmory: 103.3% - 121.6%
Energy Ball on 252/252 Burungeru: 55% - 65%
Surf (Rain) on 252/252 Roobushin: 64% - 75.6%

Just wanted to interject by saying that you shouldn't be using Energy Ball. Giga Drain was buffed to 75 Base Power, gets STAB, and recovers Life Orb recoil. Combined with Ludicolo's moderate defenses, it's pretty difficult to take down.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

A lot of people say that Lugia is not "OU material" because they think it's impossible to break. In 4th Gen this was very true, but now Lugia crumbles a lot easier. Here is a list of ways to counter him and prove that he is worth testing

*The first way is Toxic. Once It hits Lugia's time on the field is limited. This easily ruins the CM sweeper version of Lugia, forcing it to swich every so often just to stay alive. I know Lugia can have moves like safeguard, substitute, or Rest and sleep talk, but how many Lugia's do you see running around with sets like that. The most common sets for Lugia are the CM sweeper set with Calm Mind, Roost, Whirlwind/Dragon Tail, Ice Beam or the Great Wall set with Reflect/Light Screen, Roost, Whirlwind/Dragon Tail, Ice Beam.

*Another way is to put it to sleep. With the new BW sleep changes most of the time when a pokemon is put to sleep, it's out for the rest of the match. And I don't see Lugia being any exception to this. Once asleep it will be easy to kill since it won't be able to roost.

*Darkrai is an excellent check for Lugia It easily 2HKOs with Dark Pulse and that's before it nasty plots.

*Another Pokemon that can kill Lugia is a Choice Specs Kingdra in the rain.

*Lugia also does not appreciate a sneak attack night burst from a zoroark in disguise. A night Burst form a timid zoroark can 2HKO a common Lugia set.

*Choice Banded T-tar I belive OHKOs Lugia with out a screen with stone edge.

*Also Sazandora 2HKOs Lugia with dark pulse.

See there are pokes that can take it out. Few can do it in one hit, but plenty can do it in 2. I didn't list all of them off the top of my head because my little sis is begging me for the computer... so I gotta go, but feel free to list more pokes that can stop it.

Oh my god, Lugia OU??? I'm gone for a few days and its turned back into whether Lugia can be OU. NO. Lugia is faster. Lugia has Reflect/Roost/Multi-Scale. Lugia wouldn't try to be facing a Choice Band once it knows and would switch to Scizor/Breloom. Faster Tyranitar can't kill (behind Reflect/Multi-Scale, Tyranitar does pathethic then). Who even still uses Choice Scarf Tyranitar now seeing there's Breloom/Scizor/Roopushin various Mach Punchers who laugh at his speed? Lugia isn't coming in on Scizor (possibly the other ones although it must also beware Rock Tomb Breloom who'll make it slower).

Darkrai is already a suspect who'll likely be leaving soon and even then Lugia does have Light Screen and Thunderwave (and Multi-Scale). Sazandora can be either outsped by Lugia (an offensive one) unless it's Scarf and even then it won't be doing that much damage to Lugia then. Even with min defenses and hp, Draco Meteor is doing less then half and will be Recovered easy. If it's faster, it'll Calm Mind/Thunderwave/Light Screen you and then beat you down with Icebeam/Aeroblast. How many Sazandora run Dark Pulse (or run Sazandora because Latios is availabe for that matter)? If it did, a Justice Horse could come in and force Sazandora out with a +1 (and possibly more) atk boost. Also, if you thought Manaphy and Nattorei are specially bulky, watch Lugia behind Calm Mind who also has decent speed and attacking stats and pretty tough to even as an attacker instead of a more wallish version. After Calm Mind, Kingdra will probably be having some trouble if Lugia was in first (or if it has Multi-Scale as it comes in at full health who'll then Calm Mind). If it's Pressure, you better hope it doesn't drag your pp to 0 and you better hit twice because if you miss, then it'll Calm Mind or Status or Screen you.

It always hated Toxic. It's time in is cut short by Toxic and forced to switch to prevent death. But Toxic ruins most non-Steel/Hydration walls and it could viably run a Rest-Talk set so if Toxic is your only solution...and it can still take a hit, set up a screen, and run before Toxic kills. It does have Safeguard as well and if it can kill you before Toxic kills it...(an attacking variant)...

Choice Band Tyranitar can (with Stone Edge and Stealth Rock/Critical Hit/other damage from another poke but amazingly with 405 hp, 394 def it can survive at full health even without Reflect or Multi-Scale taking only 87.9%, not Crunch, Crunch it could live even with Stealth Rock) without a Reflect/Multi-Scale but...we're assuming Tyranitar comes in on Lugia since Lugia rarely would ever come in on Tyranitar if it had the choice. And it's faster and sets up Reflect and only banded really stands a chance. Which begs for Reflect, Scizor/Justice Horse/some Mach Puncher to come in and kill Tyranitar. It could come in after Tyranitar killed something I guess and set up screen if need be as well.

So short of Tyranitar/suspects/potentially Choice Specs Kingdra in rain or insane things needing to be boosted by weather (Hidiharuma for example although Lugia can survive a Choice Band Encourage Stab Sun boosted Flare Blitz with Reflect/Multi-Scale although it doesn't want to switch in on it because it could be 2 hit koed then), nothing can really 2 hit ko Lugia. Situationally there might be a few things but they still have to be really strong (Sazandora, by the way, is laughed at by Defensive Lugia Light Screen or even offensive Lugia behind Screen who'll then be faster as well as even Choice Specs Dark Pulse is only a three hit ko and can be Recovered off and switched in on). And with Screens/Multi-Scale/Status threats, that'll be a tall order. Even Lugia's brief stint in OU was quickly banned and found to powerful.

And Ho-Oh? Just no. Zekrom? Just no. Groudon? What are you smoking? (Not to you specifically but for all people who want things like those potentially tested in OU. Because short of bringing all the ubers down and then making the uber tier the new OU, they will not be coming down.)

 

[some hero]

No you're not, you have just given up on Lugia and you have admitted before to have never played Ubers. Stealth Rock is not a reason, 90 Speed is not a reason, 90 Defense is not a reason. You must be fucking joking, sorry, stop playing theorymon for a while and go see how much of a monster Ho-oh and Lugia are.

Like the poster above, i agree.Lugia may not seem as threatening as Palkia,Dialga or Kyogre..But that's because Lugia doesn't have massive 150+ attacking stats with powerful STABs.So compared to them,Lugia seems lacking and like a good choice for OU..BUT that is a lie.Even with 90 special attack,Lugia is a beast.Outside of stall, Luggia would make a completely broken Calm Minder..

The best way to look at it is this way:In Ubers Lugia has to constantly take attacks coming from (usually) 150+ base attack monsters..And not only does it survive, but is a good/great Pokemon there.Take that to OU where thing hit a lot(a LOT) softer and Lugia will be extremely hard to beat.Yes, it has counters, but those wouln't stop Lugia from dominating the metagame.

 

[fidgety]

On an unrelated note, someone in policy review suggested banning dark void instead of darkrai. Hypnosis darkrai sounds good to me. What do you all think?

Fuck banning spore though. Breloom and morobareru don't need to be nerfed.

Also, as a point of reference, the following pokes from the initial banlist are, IMO, not OU viable, and too powerful for a suspect test:


Arceus
Dialga
Giratina
Kyogre
Mewtwo
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram

These ones I'm not sure about.

Zekrom
Groudon

WTF the closest thing 4 comparison 2 groudon in OU 4 starters that i can think of is glyscor 252hp/252defence impish (+def, -spa) is 2 shotted by jolly ttar's ice punch taking about 64%. i know scince i lost to that spread just last night under those w/ my scarf tar using ice punch. no imagine remove the flying type + add pema-sun so its only weak 2 grass + ice 100 base hp max = 404 max defense impish = 416 yea + 2-3 unresisted physical attacks assuming not something rediculusly powerful like STAB outrage (flinches) to seriously dent it i may be exagerating but not 2 much. i unlike some play ubers w/ the defensive groudon spread no less it can eat hits (physical) like no tomorrow. + the offencive sets r nothing 2 laugh @ either 150 base atk w/ swords dance + edgequake + rock polish 2 fix it's speed.

zekrom 150 attack 120 special attack it can rip shit up lightining strike 130 base power 195 w/ STAB alone is ridiculous. groudon can't wall it due 2 it's special attacks. draco meteor is bad enough from say mence now give it 2 a poke w/ a better spa + better physical stabs 2 back it up off of a better atk yea. i don't have 2 much else 2 say about zekrom due 2 lack of experience w/ it right now.

 

[JSND]

breakable sturdy wall isnt exactly not broken especialy if were talking about BREAKABLE VERY STURDY EXTREMELY FAST wall all in one pack.
These ones I'm not sure about.

Zekrom
Groudon

Okay after i see you nominate lugia ban AND these ban i can confirm you NEVER REALLY PLAYED UBERS. How so ? First Zekrom is probably the most surprisingly insane uber threats this gen. He himself make kyogre not as dominating as last gen and hes an insane choice scarfer. In fact, among 90 speedster hes downright the single most insane choice scarfer in the entire game with his LS and Outrage. Do you want to play game with Steelix in every team ? NO. Oh did i need to mention that with the exception of some arceus form hes the only reliable check to CM lugia ?

the one AND only pokemon that can make the mighty zekrom fall from grace albeit still nice is the equaly broken and mighty groudon. Groudon is proably the most broken pokemon(for me) every generation have ever introduced and his broken level is unsurpassed even until now counting mewtwo, Kyogre and other broken ubers. Groudon is what we can call the top amongst the top pokemon in ubers. In short, in ubers where its more insane, groudon is crazy so never imagine it in OU its stupid, it will dominate the playfield without delay.

First off, his defense stats when defesively invested can take rayquaza full outrage without resisting, an impossible feat for most defensive wall without resist AND groudon isnt useless seeing he have Thunder wave, Stealth rock, can phaze, and 150 base attack. Offensively, behold the biggest reason uber is called 1 turn and die.
Uber player know that Groudon is the game's most powerful set up sweeper in existence (yeah hes better than rayq or on par). If you play against setted groudon, all you can think is revenge him quickly or counter him with those so called groudon counter WHICH is a big set up bait AND taunting food and plain horrible.

his 150 base is no joke and he has STAB ground, a thing that make mamoswine able to enter OU just by having it and high attack. Calling Groudon's offensive set no laughing matter is not enough, in fact groudon is the biggest offensive threats uber has to offer. This mean the only reason some stupid and idiot person can nominate or doubt about groudon's power is because they are stupid enough to compare the massive groudon's sun with the suck Ninetales sun which every player know that ninetales is 90000000000000 level less good than groudon sorry for the harsh word BUT this is th big truth that ninetales sucks and groudon's godly amazing.

And ho-oh ? oh-ho i switch in tails and you dont have a ghost of chance since i switch in mah ho-oh to wreak brave birding havoc and roosting and if you dont use toed im going to kill. Then if you use toed, get ready to have toed or your team mate to get killed and massive damage. Oh kabutops switch on sacred fire ? burn(trollface)
That is exactly what ho-oh will do in OU.

Lugia is even worse. Seriously in ubers where evrybody have perfect stats, lugia is a dangerous wall and cm sweeper that if not for SD(OMG SWORD DANCE LATIAS !!!!!) latias exist, cm sweeper is one of his best shot in ubers. But now with latias gone, - 2 DM is more like have zekrom will ya or i kill ya with my cm sweep by lugia sign. Oh specs kingdra 2HKO ? good luck facing burungeru i bet youll cry before you know it. Burungeru is a pokemon made of dont hydro pump, you moron pokemon for specs kingdra. have fun. of ludicollo geting attention ? well hes walled by bliss whic is still common like before(so do kdra), and if hes using surf, i have deoxys D ready to paralyze him. bye oh and i use scarf skymin for even better result. Biggest reason ludi isnt broken huh ?

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Latias/Latios don't even learn Swords Dance (Latios does get Dragon Dance) but I don't see how even if they did they would even threaten Lugia. What are you talking about there? Unless you mean...Swords Dance Groudon (who is a monster)?

I haven't seen Blissey in OU very much (the one I did see fell to Kerudio). But otherwise I agree? Scarf Skymin does have to watch out for Qwilfish (lol). But that isn't at all relevant to Lugia.

 

[JSND]

i mean soul dew. the sd latias is a joke
AND dont underestimate qwilfish. Hes anti defensive lugia

 

[fidgety]

breakable sturdy wall isnt exactly not broken especialy if were talking about BREAKABLE VERY STURDY EXTREMELY FAST wall all in one pack.
These ones I'm not sure about.

Zekrom
Groudon

Okay after i see you nominate lugia ban AND these ban i can confirm you NEVER REALLY PLAYED UBERS. How so ? First Zekrom is probably the most surprisingly insane uber threats this gen. He himself make kyogre not as dominating as last gen and hes an insane choice scarfer. In fact, among 90 speedster hes downright the single most insane choice scarfer in the entire game with his LS and Outrage. Do you want to play game with Steelix in every team ? NO. Oh did i need to mention that with the exception of some arceus form hes the only reliable check to CM lugia ?

the one AND only pokemon that can make the mighty zekrom fall from grace albeit still nice is the equaly broken and mighty groudon. Groudon is proably the most broken pokemon(for me) every generation have ever introduced and his broken level is unsurpassed even until now counting mewtwo, Kyogre and other broken ubers. Groudon is what we can call the top amongst the top pokemon in ubers. In short, in ubers where its more insane, groudon is crazy so never imagine it in OU its stupid, it will dominate the playfield without delay.

First off, his defense stats when defesively invested can take rayquaza full outrage without resisting, an impossible feat for most defensive wall without resist AND groudon isnt useless seeing he have Thunder wave, Stealth rock, can phaze, and 150 base attack. Offensively, behold the biggest reason uber is called 1 turn and die.
Uber player know that Groudon is the game's most powerful set up sweeper in existence (yeah hes better than rayq or on par). If you play against setted groudon, all you can think is revenge him quickly or counter him with those so called groudon counter WHICH is a big set up bait AND taunting food and plain horrible.

his 150 base is no joke and he has STAB ground, a thing that make mamoswine able to enter OU just by having it and high attack. Calling Groudon's offensive set no laughing matter is not enough, in fact groudon is the biggest offensive threats uber has to offer. This mean the only reason some stupid and idiot person can nominate or doubt about groudon's power is because they are stupid enough to compare the massive groudon's sun with the suck Ninetales sun which every player know that ninetales is 90000000000000 level less good than groudon sorry for the harsh word BUT this is th big truth that ninetales sucks and groudon's godly amazing.

And ho-oh ? oh-ho i switch in tails and you dont have a ghost of chance since i switch in mah ho-oh to wreak brave birding havoc and roosting and if you dont use toed im going to kill. Then if you use toed, get ready to have toed or your team mate to get killed and massive damage. Oh kabutops switch on sacred fire ? burn(trollface)
That is exactly what ho-oh will do in OU.

Lugia is even worse. Seriously in ubers where evrybody have perfect stats, lugia is a dangerous wall and cm sweeper that if not for SD(OMG SWORD DANCE LATIAS !!!!!) latias exist, cm sweeper is one of his best shot in ubers. But now with latias gone, - 2 DM is more like have zekrom will ya or i kill ya with my cm sweep by lugia sign. Oh specs kingdra 2HKO ? good luck facing burungeru i bet youll cry before you know it. Burungeru is a pokemon made of dont hydro pump, you moron pokemon for specs kingdra. have fun. of ludicollo geting attention ? well hes walled by bliss whic is still common like before(so do kdra), and if hes using surf, i have deoxys D ready to paralyze him. bye oh and i use scarf skymin for even better result. Biggest reason ludi isnt broken huh ?

i haven't used offencive groudon since b4 i started playing ballanced teams in ubers which was months b4 i started po like shortly after the release of lab so remembering the exact ridiculousness of it is a slight challenge (especially since i never had much luck w/ it) also if u think scarm-bliss is bad swap scarm 4 groudon yea that would be really bad 4 offensive/balanced teams.