np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[Kefka Palazzo™]

What do the other weathers have over Rain?

Look at their abusers:

Rain: Ludicolo,Kabutops,Kingdra,Vaporeon,Manaphy,anything else with Swift Swim/Hydration/Rain Dish

Sun: Venusaur,Doredia,Exegguttor

Sand: Landlos,Doryuuzu,Sandslash,Sand veil mons to an extent

Hail: lolhail

 

[Demoness]

Well, Sand can still be summoned without Sand Stream too. I agree with Fluffy Ottters, if you're going to ban auto-weather abilities, ban them all. If we just banned rain, sand dominates, if we ban sand, rain dominates, ban both, sun dominates, then ban all three, hail dominates.

I'd prefer it if all four weathers were left unbanned, they aren't really that troubling to me. But if we are going to ban weather, they need to all be banned. If only one weather dominates, then there's even less counters to that weather because there are no auto-weather changers to get rid of the weather immediately.

EDIT: Ninja'd

Why would all of them need to be banned if one was banned? That makes no sense and is stupidly assuming that if a weather is removed, than another will become overpowered. We need to take them on a case by case basis, not "Either they're all banned or none are banned."

 

[masterful]

Well, Sand can still be summoned without Sand Stream too. I agree with Fluffy Ottters, if you're going to ban auto-weather abilities, ban them all. If we just banned rain, sand dominates, if we ban sand, rain dominates, ban both, sun dominates, then ban all three, hail dominates.

I'd prefer it if all four weathers were left unbanned, they aren't really that troubling to me. But if we are going to ban weather, they need to all be banned. If only one weather dominates, then there's even less counters to that weather because there are no auto-weather changers to get rid of the weather immediately.

EDIT: Ninja'd

none of those statements are true. Sand teams do not deter the use of Rain teams, nor are they discouraged by their use. Auto-weathers are completely unrelated, and hail and sun just suck in general. Rain is the only OP weather, so it must be banned

 

[XienZo]

What do the other weathers have over Rain?

Look at their abusers:

Rain: Ludicolo,Kabutops,Kingdra,Vaporeon,Manaphy,anything else with Swift Swim/Hydration/Rain Dish

Sun: Venusaur,Doredia,Exegguttor

Sand: Landlos,Doryuuzu,Sandslash,Sand veil mons to an extent

Hail: lolhail

Those are just ability abusers though. 1.5x boost to Fire and Water allow stuff like Shandera to abuse weather as well, and 1.5x Sp.Def allows Rock types like T-tar to stop special sweepers pretty well.

Also, you forgot Solar Power Charizard.

 

[Lamppost]

IMO weather isn't over centralizing, when i ladder on my account that is higher on the leaderboards i don't see weather teams all that much. The voters hit it spot on not banning dory, there is no reason why it should be banned. If you make a team and let it be doryuuzu weak then it's your own fault. And don't say that's bad because you have to make a team or have a pokemon on your team just to counter dory because its like that for other pokemon too. You don't go into a competitive pokemon scene with a team that is weak to the top 3 pokemon of the generation. You always have had to build your team to counter pokemon and that is the way its always been.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Those are just ability abusers though. 1.5x boost to Fire and Water allow stuff like Shandera to abuse weather as well, and 1.5x Sp.Def allows Rock types like T-tar to stop special sweepers pretty well.

Also, you forgot Solar Power Charizard.

I thought it would be obvious >.>
Anyway,Solar Power Charizard kills itself,but I'll put it :P

 

[Bologo]

What do the other weathers have over Rain?

Look at their abusers:

Rain: Ludicolo,Kabutops,Kingdra,Vaporeon,Manaphy,anything else with Swift Swim/Hydration/Rain Dish

Sun: Venusaur,Doredia,Exegguttor

Sand: Landlos,Doryuuzu,Sandslash,Sand veil mons to an extent

Hail: lolhail

Really? You conveniently left out so many abusers in other weathers while including everything for Rain.

For Sun, there's also Mebukijika, Charizard, Shiftry, hard-hitting Fire pokemon (ie. Heatran and Shandera), Moonlight/Morning Sun users (ie. Arcanine), and probably more.

For Sand, although you mentioned the Sand Veil pokemon, you seemed to just brush it off, even though it's easily one of the best ways to use it. Garchomp and Gliscor are used all the time for abusing Sand. Also, what about Rock-types that abuse Sandstorm for 1.5x SpD? For example, Terrakion, Abagoora, and Cradily. There's also abuse of the residual damage which can screw with Stall teams. L2 Probopass and L1 Aron take advantage of this too.

I agree that Hail does suck, but at least it's a good counter to the other weathers, since a lot of Rain abusers lose quite decisively to Abomasnow, and Chlorophyllers do too since they're all Grass-type and as a result get murdered by Blizzard. The Sand Throwers and Sand Powerers take a lot of damage from Abomasnow too.

While Rain is a good weather, please don't sell the other weathers short, because they're still not very difficult to abuse either.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

IMO weather isn't over centralizing, when i ladder on my account that is higher on the leaderboards i don't see weather teams all that much. The voters hit it spot on not banning dory, there is no reason why it should be banned. If you make a team and let it be doryuuzu weak then it's your own fault. And don't say that's bad because you have to make a team or have a pokemon on your team just to counter dory because its like that for other pokemon too. You don't go into a competitive pokemon scene with a team that is weak to the top 3 pokemon of the generation. You always have had to build your team to counter pokemon and that is the way its always been.

Dory demands a Mach Puncher(Heck,only Techniloom OHKOs AFAIK) or a Defensive Gliscor.
Water abusers DEMAND Nattorei/Toxicroak/whatever
Sun on the other hand,isn't as strong,and hail is just pathetic.

You can say "just use some counters and adapt",but that would just be making a crap ton of mons near useless then.
You either use these mons from a small list or fail horribly.
Everyone would be using the same teams if they followed your logic.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Really? You conveniently left out so many abusers in other weathers while including everything for Rain.

For Sun, there's also Mebukijika, Charizard, Shiftry, hard-hitting Fire pokemon (ie. Heatran and Shandera), Moonlight/Morning Sun users (ie. Arcanine), and probably more.

For Sand, although you mentioned the Sand Veil pokemon, you seemed to just brush it off, even though it's easily one of the best ways to use it. Garchomp and Gliscor are used all the time for abusing Sand. Also, what about Rock-types that abuse Sandstorm for 1.5x SpD? For example, Terrakion, Abagoora, and Cradily. There's also abuse of the residual damage which can screw with Stall teams. L2 Probopass and L1 Aron take advantage of this too.

I agree that Hail does suck, but at least it's a good counter to the other weathers, since a lot of Rain abusers lose quite decisively to Abomasnow, and Chlorophyllers do too since they're all Grass-type and as a result get murdered by Blizzard. The Sand Throwers and Sand Powerers take a lot of damage from Abomasnow too.

While Rain is a good weather, please don't sell the other weathers short, because they're still not very difficult to abuse either.

The other abusers aren't nearly as threatening as the rain abusers,that was kinda the point.
Also,using Abomasnow for your point....isn't that great.
He's the only mon stopping the hail team from failing horribly and you'd be using him to stop the sweepers....

 

[Lamppost]

Dory demands a Mach Puncher(Heck,only Techniloom OHKOs AFAIK) or a Defensive Gliscor.
Water abusers DEMAND Nattorei/Toxicroak/whatever
Sun on the other hand,isn't as strong,and hail is just pathetic.

You can say "just use some counters and adapt",but that would just be making a crap ton of mons near useless then.
You either use these mons from a small list or fail horribly.
Everyone would be using the same teams if they followed your logic.

Using your logic you act like every single time a dory is on the field you get swept without control, but that isn't the case. There are plenty of pokemon that counter and check dory

 

[Destiny Warrior]

Manaphy is ocerpowered, but I wouldn't think it wise to ban it before drizzle. If we do, we get into this huge controversyy of "Test Manaphy without Drizzle".


Guys, if you ban Drizzle next time, don't ban Manaphy. Or we'll be in a load of time wasting.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Using your logic you act like every single time a dory is on the field you get swept without control, but that isn't the case. There are plenty of pokemon that counter and check dory

I count 6:

• Gliscor
• Abomasnow
• Roobushin
• Breloom
• Lucario
• Hippowdon

And Dory can run a Balloon to get past half of them, and a Chople Berry to get past the other half. Besides weather, what can check it?

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

There are plenty of mons that can counter Kyogre. It should be OU!

 

[Lamppost]

-skarmory
-nattorei
-hitmontop
-azumarill
-plenty more if someone can help me out, those are just off the top of my head

is it really that difficult to pack a dory counter? no, it's not deal with it.

*edit* and for the record i do not use doryuuzu on the ladder so i am not trying to defend it because i "abuse it" but for the fact that i believe it shouldn't be banned

*double edit* really kefka your going to say that? do we really need to go into why kyogre is uber? or are you too incompetent to realize what i am saying?

 

[TheValkyries]

I just would like to congratulate the voters of this round on how utterly and completely they fucked up in regards to the weather abuse problem that was apparently a pretty big deal considering how thoroughly it has been talked about and how widely nominated. Not a single thing has been done, and now it's very likely something will get unnecessarily banned because of this indecision.

Job well done.

 

[PttP]

I just would like to congratulate the voters of this round on how utterly and completely they fucked up in regards to the weather abuse problem that was apparently a pretty big deal considering how thoroughly it has been talked about and how widely nominated. Not a single thing has been done, and now it's very likely something will get unnecessarily banned because of this indecision.

Job well done.

How about you get some damn voting rights before you criticize.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Nattorei does not counter it. It is 2HKOed by +2 EQ.
Skarmory does not counter it, it is 2HKOed by a +2 Rock Slide. It can only phaze it out once.
Hitmontop is NU atm.
Azumarill is also NU atm.

Giving pokemon that are otherwise useless, like Hitmontop and Azumarill, as an argument is not valid. Skarmory and Nattorei are both not counters, nor are they even checks.

 

[Deaga]

Something to remember about weather is that, while very few Pokémon get Speed/Attack boosting abilities for Sandstream (lol Dory and Landlos, nobody cares about Sandlslash), those two are generally way better than most stuff useable under rain.

Things such as Ludicolo and Gorebyss have no boosting moves, subpar special attack (Ludi's is only 90, Gorebyss is still way lower than Dory's attack) and maybe even somewhat bad speed. Even stuff like Kabutops, which can boost it's attack, has an enourmous ammount of flaws. Only Kingdra is actually good independent of weather. EDIT - Oopsie, forgot Gorebyss gets Shell Break, so we can forget about it! Ludicolo gets Swords Dance, but has an awful attack stat.

So, what's the point? Even if Sandstream gets very few abusers, those are actually some damn good ones, way better than the stuff rain has. I guess that's something to keep in mind when discussing the impact weather has on the metagame.



I left Manaphy out on purpose because I'm quite sure noone disagrees that it's a broken bitch under rain. i.e: if we assume Drizzle stays in OU, Manaphy surely is leaving.

 

[Lamppost]

Nattorei does not counter it. It is 2HKOed by +2 EQ.
Skarmory does not counter it, it is 2HKOed by a +2 Rock Slide. It can only phaze it out once.
Hitmontop is NU atm.
Azumarill is also NU atm.

Giving pokemon that are otherwise useless, like Hitmontop and Azumarill, as an argument is not valid. Skarmory and Nattorei are both not counters, nor are they even checks.

Skarmory can phaze it out and roost off the damage taken so its a check

Nattorei can 2hko dory with power whip (does about 67% last time i checked) check

Hitmontop and azumarill are nu, lol that is funny. first off hitmontop is uu and it is far from useless in the ou metagame. technitop proves a reliable counter to a lot of the metagame like doryuuzu.

 

[Arc Tech]

Nattorei does not counter it. It is 2HKOed by +2 EQ.
Skarmory does not counter it, it is 2HKOed by a +2 Rock Slide. It can only phaze it out once.
Hitmontop is NU atm.
Azumarill is also NU atm.

Giving pokemon that are otherwise useless, like Hitmontop and Azumarill, as an argument is not valid. Skarmory and Nattorei are both not counters, nor are they even checks.

+2 adamant max atk LO doryuuzu vs 252/176 impish skarmory: 42.8%-50.6%
vs max/max skarm: 40.7%-48.2%

A 1% chance to 2hko 252/176 (assuming shed shell, which is admittedly rarer this gen outside of DW) and a 0% chance to 2hko max defense skarm. A flinch could be a problem, but so could a miss. It will have trouble phazing it out a second time, admittedly, if the doryuuzu player plays right and a poke which skarm can't roost on gets dragged out. But since it is LO, not balloon, it will take quite a bit from spikes and LO, meaning that it will probably have trouble setting up a second time. Not to mention Hippowdon beats LO, and well as any mach puncher, as opposed to only breloom. Also hitmontop and azumarill are both UU I believe (there's no UU list yet for Gen V since OU is still being decided).

I count 6:
Gliscor
Abomasnow
Roobushin
Breloom
Lucario
Hippowdon

And Dory can run a Balloon to get past half of them, and a Chople Berry to get past the other half. Besides weather, what can check it?

Balloon Heatran, Balloon Terakion, Ninetails, Scarf Politoed, Rankurusu (x-scizzor doesn't ohko defensive variants, even at +2), Sableye (DW), Erufun. Not counting Sableye I just doubled your list, and there are even more "lower" tier checks.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

I was wrong about Skarmory, I'd read that it was 2HKOed, but hadn't calced it myself. However, the last time I checked, Doryuuzu was faster than Nattorei, so Nattorei is easily 2HKOed. And seriously, have you ever seen Azumarill or Hitmontop, ever? It's because they're not useful in this metagame. That's like saying that Kyogre isn't Uber because Quagsire walls it. You said yourself:

and for the record i do not use doryuuzu on the ladder so i am not trying to defend it because i "abuse it" but for the fact that i believe it shouldn't be banned

So how are you supposed to know anything about playing with it?

 

[jchen]

Skarmory can phaze it out and roost off the damage taken so its a check

Nattorei can 2hko dory with power whip (does about 67% last time i checked) check

Hitmontop and azumarill are nu, lol that is funny. first off hitmontop is uu and it is far from useless in the ou metagame. technitop proves a reliable counter to a lot of the metagame like doryuuzu.

how does nattorei check dory at all? switch in on SD, get 2HKO'd before you 2HKO back. nattorei cant even revenge unless dory has taken alot of previous damage.

 

[Lamppost]

So how are you supposed to know anything about playing with it?

Oh idk maybe because if played against it?
Anyways its not banned for a reason deal with it

 

[XienZo]

OTR Bronzong deals with Dory nicely.

Edit: I don't see how banning rain would make Dory seem less OP...

 

[cosmicexplorer]

I apologize for flaming you. That was completely uncalled for.

Regardless, I still believe Doryuuzu is overpowered; maybe there'll be a change of heart once Rain is banned.