Fortunately if you outpredict twice it is more likely that you will outpredict 4-5 times in a row.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!
- Thread starter Philip7086
- Start date
- Status
Yes, but the set I've been using (and which I have found effective) is specially defensive Abomasnow (max/max+ actually). And anyway Abomasnow shouldn't be staying in anyway. He's cripple, maybe add an extra hit, and run.
This is absolutely ridiculous. Is everyone missing the point that the only thing you can come up with to handle rain teams is to include abomasnow? So every team needs to have an abomasnow now to not get swept by rain? Overcentralization much?
To add insult to injury, it's a pretty sketchy counter at that. With a smart player, there will be plenty of opportunities to bring politoed back in and there's only so many times abomasnow can switch into these pokemon no matter how defensively EVed it is. Everything can hit it pretty hard. Ludicolo carries focus blast, kingdra has dragon attacks, kabutops has x-scissor, hell even politoed can drop one of its attacks for focus blast if abomasnow actually becomes a common check which it probably won't because it messes with so many teams/strategies not least of which are sand teams.
To add insult to injury, it's a pretty sketchy counter at that. With a smart player, there will be plenty of opportunities to bring politoed back in and there's only so many times abomasnow can switch into these pokemon no matter how defensively EVed it is. Everything can hit it pretty hard. Ludicolo carries focus blast, kingdra has dragon attacks, kabutops has x-scissor, hell even politoed can drop one of its attacks for focus blast if abomasnow actually becomes a common check which it probably won't because it messes with so many teams/strategies not least of which are sand teams.
1) Abomasnow is an excellent counter for rain teams outside of running a weather team yourself. Abomasnow is mostly for those who do not wish to run rain, sun or sand teams yet still have a very good answer to rain teams.
2) The main pokemon Abomasnow should be coming into is politoed. And while focus blast does hit abomasnow hard, Politoed needs max sp atk to have a chance at 2hkoing and LO or specs to guarantee the 2hko. Abomasnow, on the other hand, can probably recover off enough damage with giga drain and outlast politoed (especially if it has LO), or simply ohko with wood hammer. No leftovers on Poli also means that you can put pressure on politoed and the rest of the rain team more easily.
Uh, maybe we're discussing one counter at a time because it gets chaotic to mention all of them in every post?
Other weathers, Trick Room, Lickilicky, one weather-changing moveslot, and I suppose gimmick sets are just some of the other ways to handle rain, but we're focusing on how Abomasnow is viable as well.
And what's wrong with Abomasnow messing with so many teams/strategies? Just make sure your team is alright with it, and there's a good chance your opponent won't really like it, regardless of whether they have a weather team or not.
"Running weather yourself" is not a counter to rain because Tyranitar, Hippowdon and Ninetales do not enjoy switching into surfs/hydro pumps.
It doesn't need to 2hko, just catch it on the switch and then go to something like nattorei to set up hazards and bring it back in at the next opportunity and repeat. While the abomasnow kills itself with entry hazards. If you go to a spinner, just another opportunity for toed to come in and focus blast you again.
So basically a handful of gimmicky pokemon/strategies that will basically put you at a disadvantage against any other team. There's a reason these things don't get used that often because they're just not that good. It says a lot about rain if it forces you to use these particular pokemon/strategies just to counter it.
What's wrong with this is that it's overcentralizing. Every team needs an Abomasnow and a team that can work with or around its ability. Doesn't sound like a very good metagame.
And Politoed can switch into which of those?
How is Trick Room not viable in such a speed-oriented metagame? Is Lickilicky stopping all 4 forms of the most popular playstyle really not that good? Can you not afford a single moveslot on your pokemon that would have gone to, let's say, Rapid Spin in previous generations?
Then explain why not every non-rain team currently has Abomasnow.
I´m wondering about why many people haven´t done mention to Ditto as a decent threat against some weather teams, and really, you are overpowering Focus Blast, it can be powerful, but it misses a lot, for now, none of the weather teams (of all the four weathers of the game) totally composed of abusers have a good neutral synergy, and it will put you in disadvantage in the late-game.
Ninetales. But that's not the point. The weather inducer doesn't have to switch into another weather inducer, it's about finding opportunities switching into any of their pokemon.
Politoed is able to switch into a lot of the common pokemon found on sand teams like skarm, gliscor etc because many of them are defensively oriented as sand is suited for stall. It also has no trouble switching into the fire pokemon on sun teams. Meanwhile, just about everything on a rain team carries stab water making it very hard for t-tar, hippo and ninetales to come in without sacrificing something first.
Trick room is about as viable now as rain was viable last gen. It's about the turn required to set up and the limited duration. Rain had exactly the same swift swim users with the same moves but it was extremely limited by requiring to set up. Failing to do so, just about every pokemon on the team became sub-par and dead weight which was what made it a gimmick team like trick room is now.
Lickilicky isn't used. Same reason why golduck wasn't used last gen to stop sand and why it still isn't used now. Because it's not very good and dead weight when you're up against a non weather team. It's still bad even against weather teams.
And no, not only can I not waste a slot because again rapid spin is more useful against any non-rain team, it's way too easy for them to just bring the weather inducer back in while I need to waste a turn to change the weather. It shifts the momentum and puts me at a disadvantage which you just can't afford if you're playing anyone decent.
I'm aware that there are lots of things you "can" do to stop rain but none of them are that effective and OU metagame worthy. Your team will only suffer because you had to put it in there to prevent yourself getting swept. To me that's not acceptable.
Because people don't like abomasnow and like I said it's a sketchy counter at best.
Touche with it, but anyway i keep my other arguments.
Sorry Arc Tech, I've played your hail team several times before (its really good), and I had no trouble beating it with my rain team. Abomasnow doesn't really do shit to rain teams. Sure he can in on Politoad (who can threaten you with Toxic) but he really can't come in on any other rain sweeper other than Manaphy and Ludicolo. Kabutops and Kingdra crush Abomasnow with their secondary STAB moves, and rain teams almost always carry Nattorei. I can easily switch into Nattorei and Abomasnow can double switch into Politoad right after. Finally, the biggest problem with using Abomasnow to counter rain is his Stealth Rock Weakness and lack of reliably. At best, he can only switch in 3 times.
In other news, if your aren't using your own weather starter, rain crushes you. Expect this round to be filled with weather teams.
In other news, if your aren't using your own weather starter, rain crushes you. Expect this round to be filled with weather teams.
Not necessarily. I haven't tested it, but I certainly will when I get back from holidays and I get my PO access back. Just theorymoning so far, here's a nice Poli + 5 Swift Swimmers/Hydration team:
-Specs Politoed
-Specs Kingdra
-SD Kabutops
-SD Qwilfish (Bye-bye Toxic Spikes and Birijion)
-Ludicolo (Special is probably better by the looks of it at the moment) (Good Nattorei switch in)
-TG Manaphy (Bye-bye Chansey/Blissey/Burungeru)
Even if you pack stuff that can take a Swift Swimmer or two (Nattorei, Abomasnow, Burungeru, etc), I seriously doubt you're going to carry 3+ rain defenders on your team, and one or two would very likely get overwhelmed by just repeated attacks over and over again. Back last round, something like this would have been murdered by Scarf Skymin, but now there's nothing that can outspeed and OHKO the lot.
My opinions on the votes:
Drizzle: 24 Bans, 17 Do Not Bans, and 9 Abstains (58.5%)
... WOW. Drizzle was decided broken as an abilty alone back in 4th Gen, and the only outside factor to hinder Drizzle in the 5th is greater abusers of sand... the main cause of this also being a suspect. Even then, Rain has better/improved abusers, such as the new Tail Glow for Manpahy, or Swift Swim Tsubeaar giving Rain teams some diversity in types. [SS Bear hits surprisingly hard with Icicle Drop]
Wondering why so many people wanted to Abstain as well.
Inconsistent: 48 Bans, 2 Do Not Bans, and 0 Abstains (96%)
Obvious. Should have been lumped with the Evasion Clause right away.
Shadow Tag: 17 Bans, 22 Do Not Bans, and 11 Abstains (43.6%)
Mildly surprising. Ad the number of abstains... wow.
Pokemon
Darkrai: 49 Bans, 1 Do Not Ban, and 1 Abstain (98%)
I really think if someone abstains, they should give a reason. I can't think of any reason to abstain on Darkrai.
Deoxys-A: 46 Bans, 2 Do Not Bans, and 3 Abstains (95.8%)
See Darkrai.
Deoxys-N: 28 Bans, 11 Do Not Bans, and 12 Abstains (71.8%)
Now this, I understand the abstains. Shouldn't have even been a suspect, IMO, becuse it's overshadowed by the other formes. Should have waited for A to be banned to vote on N.
Doryuuzu: 16 Bans, 27 Do Not Bans, and 8 Abstains (37.2%)
Wait... so... what just happened? Nothing can counter Dory, you have to revenge kill it... with a very small pool of pokemon. Shocked it wasn't closer than this at least.
Latios: 7 Bans, 38 Do Not Bans, and 6 Abstains (15.5%)
0_o
Manaphy: 26 Bans, 17 Do Not Bans, and 8 Abstains (60.5%)
Shocked that the margin wasn't bigger. A pokemon that can get to +3 in one turn, and can basically use a Full Restore on itself during the rain...
Shaymin-S: 51 Bans, 0 Do Not Bans, and 0 Abstains (100%!!!)
Wow...
Predictions for Stage 2:
Drizzle gets banned. Manpahy will probobly be banned as well, only to be nominated for a re-test with the leave of Drizzle.
If DW Ditto comes out, expect him to be a suspect.
Drought and Sand Stream nominated? Maybe. Dory might be re-nomiated in Stage 3, especially if Drizzle gets the boot.
Drizzle: 24 Bans, 17 Do Not Bans, and 9 Abstains (58.5%)
... WOW. Drizzle was decided broken as an abilty alone back in 4th Gen, and the only outside factor to hinder Drizzle in the 5th is greater abusers of sand... the main cause of this also being a suspect. Even then, Rain has better/improved abusers, such as the new Tail Glow for Manpahy, or Swift Swim Tsubeaar giving Rain teams some diversity in types. [SS Bear hits surprisingly hard with Icicle Drop]
Wondering why so many people wanted to Abstain as well.
Inconsistent: 48 Bans, 2 Do Not Bans, and 0 Abstains (96%)
Obvious. Should have been lumped with the Evasion Clause right away.
Shadow Tag: 17 Bans, 22 Do Not Bans, and 11 Abstains (43.6%)
Mildly surprising. Ad the number of abstains... wow.
Pokemon
Darkrai: 49 Bans, 1 Do Not Ban, and 1 Abstain (98%)
I really think if someone abstains, they should give a reason. I can't think of any reason to abstain on Darkrai.
Deoxys-A: 46 Bans, 2 Do Not Bans, and 3 Abstains (95.8%)
See Darkrai.
Deoxys-N: 28 Bans, 11 Do Not Bans, and 12 Abstains (71.8%)
Now this, I understand the abstains. Shouldn't have even been a suspect, IMO, becuse it's overshadowed by the other formes. Should have waited for A to be banned to vote on N.
Doryuuzu: 16 Bans, 27 Do Not Bans, and 8 Abstains (37.2%)
Wait... so... what just happened? Nothing can counter Dory, you have to revenge kill it... with a very small pool of pokemon. Shocked it wasn't closer than this at least.
Latios: 7 Bans, 38 Do Not Bans, and 6 Abstains (15.5%)
0_o
Manaphy: 26 Bans, 17 Do Not Bans, and 8 Abstains (60.5%)
Shocked that the margin wasn't bigger. A pokemon that can get to +3 in one turn, and can basically use a Full Restore on itself during the rain...
Shaymin-S: 51 Bans, 0 Do Not Bans, and 0 Abstains (100%!!!)
Wow...
Predictions for Stage 2:
Drizzle gets banned. Manpahy will probobly be banned as well, only to be nominated for a re-test with the leave of Drizzle.
If DW Ditto comes out, expect him to be a suspect.
Drought and Sand Stream nominated? Maybe. Dory might be re-nomiated in Stage 3, especially if Drizzle gets the boot.
SS Bear isn't available yet and is therefore irrelevant.
??? Give a reason? Perhaps they hadn't had enough experience with this one to give a fair vote. Perhaps they didn't care either way. Perhaps they didn't feel like it. Does it matter?
Makes sense.
lol wut
ya totally, man
I am very happy with all the results that went down except for Manaphy and Drizzle. Manaphy can instantly start sweeping after one turn with Tail Glow and in the rain it can rest and heal its sleep status. Drizzle not only boosts Manaphy dramatically but to many Swift Swimmers too. I think that if they decide to get booted out, Doryuuzu and Drought will become the new Rain and could see removal too.
All in all, happy to see a more refreshed and viable metagame without a lot of broken pokemon!
All in all, happy to see a more refreshed and viable metagame without a lot of broken pokemon!
Hail Tentacruel is probably the best rain counter. Resists Water, Ice and Fighting attacks and is neutral to grass on top of fantastic special defense which is great considering most rain sweepers are specially based. With Liquid Ooze Ludicolo's Giga Drain, it's best option of damaging it, actually hurts it. Paired with a Nattorei who can soak up the Dragon attacks and paralyze it. With HP Electric it acts as a great Politoed counter since it can't be poisoned and resists all its moves. Plus, it's a great utility pokemon in general being able to use screens, Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin. I expect Tentacruel usage to raise a lot if Drizzle remains.
Doesn't politoed learn psychic?
Politoed@Choice Specs (252 EVs, +Nature) Psychic vs Tentacruel (252/136 EVs, +Nature): 47.8 ~ 56.5% (174 ~ 206 HP)
A high chance for a 2hko with SR cancelling lefties. Support toed won't do much though (4hko... without lefties)... so specstoed seems like it might be poli's best set, with focus blast and psychich to hit aboma and tentacruel.
Who use on him any way...
Actually, there was a specstoed with psychic and focus blast in a warstory recently. And if tentacruel becomes popular, why not?
Well, now I'm going to have to make a rain team... the problem will be other rain teams, which is why I've avoided using rain teams alot so far...
I actually use an entirely different Magnezone set on my rain team, which has proven to be destructive if the opponent has a Nattorei or a Forretress:
Magnezone @ Leftovers
Modest
EVs: 252 HP/252 SpA/4 Spe
-Substitute
-Charge Beam
-Thunder
-Hidden Power [Water]
You bring Magnezone into Nattorei while it sets up Rocks, set up a Substitute, and begin using Charge Beam to accumulate boosts. After Nattorei dies, you are often at +4 - +6 Special Attack, which practically guarantees a kill on the Pokemon that breaks your substitute.
Preferably, you should pair this with a Rapid Spinner, as Nattorei can easily set up 3 layers of spikes while you trap it with Magnezone. Two great rapid spinners on rain teams include Kabutops and Starmie, as they are both able to abuse the rain and have good offensive/defensive synergy with Magnezone.
On the response to my claim on Dory:
If Dory gets in, almost nothing can switch in safe, and not at risk of being KO'ed. Therefor, there is no counter to Dory. Nothing can outspeed Dory in a Sandstorm either. Even Skarmory can't switch in scott free. It's 2HKO'ed after an SD, so is practically forced to Whirlwind. If Skarm dosen't get the chance to Roost before Dory comes back in... well.
In addittion, if it gets Swords Dance up, the only solid revengers I've come across are GustOrb or CB Roopushin, or CB Azumarill.
Don't get me wrong, I have very few problems with Dory, but only because I always ensure my team has as few pokemon as possible that can let Dory in, and if it does have any, I end up putting Azumarill/Roopushin on the team to counteract it.
And, sorry about the Tsunbear thing, I haven't used rain for myself yet, and thought that SS Tsunbear existed already. I recall fighting one before.
Tyranitar says Hi to free switch ins, and enjoys ridding the skies of that pesky Rain.
If Dory gets in, almost nothing can switch in safe, and not at risk of being KO'ed. Therefor, there is no counter to Dory. Nothing can outspeed Dory in a Sandstorm either. Even Skarmory can't switch in scott free. It's 2HKO'ed after an SD, so is practically forced to Whirlwind. If Skarm dosen't get the chance to Roost before Dory comes back in... well.
In addittion, if it gets Swords Dance up, the only solid revengers I've come across are GustOrb or CB Roopushin, or CB Azumarill.
Don't get me wrong, I have very few problems with Dory, but only because I always ensure my team has as few pokemon as possible that can let Dory in, and if it does have any, I end up putting Azumarill/Roopushin on the team to counteract it.
And, sorry about the Tsunbear thing, I haven't used rain for myself yet, and thought that SS Tsunbear existed already. I recall fighting one before.
Tyranitar says Hi to free switch ins, and enjoys ridding the skies of that pesky Rain.
Skarm isn't 2hko'd, unless you run specially defensive rather than physical defense, which isn't as good this gen. And then Dory needs LO as well. There are also plenty of things which can take a hit from Dory and ko back or even outspeed with priority, trace, or nullifying weather and ko before it gets a hit in.
And if your opponent has ttar, they won't likely be using hail tentacruel, which would be the reason you use psychic.
Look a few pages back an we named a bunch of counters and checks for dory. Honestly i really don't think you know what your talking about but i had to say it.
- Status