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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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On the contrary, there is justification for keeping sand/sun. They're just not as powerful or overcentralizing. It's highly probable that rain will be banned but sand/sun will stay. The only thing that might go is doryuuzu but given how people voted last round, that probably won't happen either.
Sand: Doesn't give Ground/Steel/Rock types another STAB bonus.
Dosen't have nearly as diverse range of abusers, in fact, it hardly has ANY.
Only offensive threats are Garchomp, Dory, and Landos, and only one of them is due to the sand.
Sun: One half of it's abusers get it's weakness made even stronger. The other half don't get boosted speeds. LOL @ Grass as an attacking type.
Rain: Gets extra STAB. Gets double speed/recovery/status immunity. Buffs an already great type. Most waters can counter the other weather pokemon. Has diverse support options.
There, I justifyed how Rain is far superior to Sand and Sun. I could flesh it out a lot more, but, honestly, I don;t have the time, and if you seriously think the other weathers even compare to Rain, you need to play more games against weather teams.
Rain's on a whole different level to all the other weathers. In all honesty, I can see Drizzle banned, Dory following, and be done there. Sand can keep Chomp and Landos, as well as stall-based pokemon, and Sun can keep everything because it's manageable, but rain... you'd have to ban more or less every single abuser to make it manageable.
Seriously, I think OU only needs 2 more bans to be stable. For the time being, at least. Drizzle and Dory.
It doesn't matter if Rain has 9001 abusers when Doryuuzu, Garchomp and (specially) Landlos "win games alone". Imagine Chlorophyll Heatran/Ulgamoth.
We are forgetting about Sun. There are a lot of super-powerful Fire-types like Ulgamoth, Shandera, and Blaziken. Blaziken is super strong, and especially when the sunlight is strong. Ulgamoth, unlike Alakazam and Porygon-Z, has weather that boosts its attacks. And Shandera has even more special attack and Flash Fire, disregarding unreleased Shadow Tag.
I'd rather ban the pokemon broken under Rain than the entire playstyle. And I don't necessarily mean to ban all of its most powerful abusers. Basically I feel that part of the problem with handling rain is the sheer number of strong abusers it can field, who can all cover each other's counters. If some are found to only be broken with another present, then they need not be banned if the partner in crime is too, necessarily. I was just theorising about who could be banned instead.
In any case, criteria for Ubers is nothing to do with their performance in that tier, merely it in OU, so you cannot say that they wouldn't do well there as an argument for not banning them. In any case, both Kabutops and Ludicolo had Ubers sets in Gen 4 as with Kyogre's rain they could in fact function reasonaby well.
In all honesty, Kingdra is pretty much the only Rain abuser aside from Manaphy who is likely to be used out of Rain in OU. Kabutops, Ludicolo, and the other swift swimmers were all firm UUs in Gen 4. And as I explain above, I didn't mean to necessarily ban every abuser, only the ones found broken under that weather in concert with each other, incrementally and not as an immediate blanket ban.
That's just a bad idea because you're banning more pokemon.
The optimal metagame has been defined (I think) to be the one with the least amount of bans; thus if you ban Drizzle you only make one Pokemon useless - Politoed. Otherwise, you can just use Rain Ludicolo or something and run Rain Dance on a few Pokemon to get up rain. Sure it neuters it a bit but it's far from crap.
The optimal metagame has been defined (I think) to be the one with the least amount of bans; thus if you ban Drizzle you only make one Pokemon useless - Politoed. Otherwise, you can just use Rain Ludicolo or something and run Rain Dance on a few Pokemon to get up rain. Sure it neuters it a bit but it's far from crap.
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/ludicolo
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/kabutops
Both of these have non rain sets.
And anyway, let's use logic.
It is much better to ban the pokemon with drizzle. I am sure that most people would not mind facing rain dance teams, as opposed to a infinite rain team. In Gen 4, there were rain teams, before drizzle was released. People used damp rocks.
Banning the abusers is illogical, because you're essentially banishing pokemon that have non-rain abuse SIMPLY because they have Swift Swim as their ability. Does that make luvdisc uber? Is Phione uber because it has hydration? No. Ban the ability that breaks the metagame.
Consider this: Last generation UU considered banning Damp Rock because rain was considered too strong, and overpowering with the turn extension.
Likewise I'm not too sure on the optimal meta's definition. Anyway, I see what you say entirely, but without perma-rain many pokemon are suddenly made unviable in OU. For instance - if Drizzle is banned then Dory and Sun will still exist, meaning teams will probably rarely run Rain, the only perma weather, as setting it up simply gives your opponent too much free momentum. In Gen 4 yes Rain was a very good playstyle without Drizzle in OU, but the presence of Sun now as well as much improved Sand means that it will be incredibly tough for Rain Dance teams to keep up once the other weathers in the meta catch on and begin running a secondary weather user.
Without Drizzle and presuming Rain Dance teams' inferiority to Sun and Sand, Kabutops is relegated to being an inferior SDer with Aqua Jet, Ludicolo a Subseeder with an interesting type, Politoed to a useless NU (as are Floatzel, Gorebyss, Qwilfish etc). Only Kingdra and Manaphy (if unbanned) still have a solid pace in OU. Moreover is the elimination of the Rain playstyle as a whole that I believe will occur if it is forced to use Damp Rocks and Rain Dance in an environment with TTar, Hippo and Tales, which I see as unecessary and detrimantal to the diversity of the metagame.
Essentially I admit that this way means more bans, but overall I feel it offers more diversity to the meta as a whole, countering out the bans which would be made.
Indeed they do have non-rain sets for OU, but go look at the usage stats for them near the end of Gen 4 and I think you'll see what I meant by them being rarely used and as such not very viable in OU. If they were so viable then surely they would have been OUs by statistic.
The problem with people not minding facing Damp Rock teams is that yeah, they wouldn't, but it seems Doryuzuu and Sun would instead become much more problematic as their main rival weather can no longer set up instaweather by merely switching in. Comparison to Gen 4 where Rain Dance teams were viable in OU is somewhat tricky given the new Sand abuse abilities and Ninetales (and improved Growth) also being present.
Banning pokemon for their ability is exactly what I propose not to do, however. I don't want to ban swift swim at all, but banning a pokemon for a broken feature (possibly being an ability) is not a foreign or so terrible concept. Part of why Chomp was banned was that Sand Veil made even 100% counters to him into 80% ones (admittedly a tenuous example, but it shows than an ability can be a reason for a ban). Wobuffett even more so.
In any case, would anyone use say Kabutops in OU with its ability Shell Armour? Banning a pokemon because it is amazing in one weather when that is its primary role in OU isn't damaging its other prospects too much. Kingdra is quite admittedly an exception, but the point stands. If a pokemon can run non-broken sets and broken sets, then we do not solely ban the broken set from use, we ban the whole pokemon. This is not picking on swift swimmers or anything of the like.
Not to mention Arcanine. In Sun, Its LO Flare Blitz hits harder than a CB Lickilicky Explosion, and is only walled by bulky waters and defensive steels. Add Close Combat and Wild Bolt for coverage and Extremespeed for the best priority move and you have a terror.
Also Sun is really effective against Rain as long as you use the right lead. often i dont bother leading with Ninetales but instead go with Borutoruso. MH Taunt screws Nattorei, Thunderbolt takes out Rain users and abusers, while Boru can take a Politoed Hydro Pump and KO back with Bolt ( as long as its not Specs, but then you outspeed). And given that the only thing that can take Boru in general on Rain is Zapdos, you can play between Boru and Tales without taking much damage until you predict the Toed switch and take it out with a Bolt.
Sun isnt as vulnerable as people make it out to be although it is true that outside of Arcanine, Scarf Shandera and Venusaur it doesn't have many reliable sweepers (Tangrowth seems to be doing well so far, Exxegutor is underwhelming).
Benlisted, is it a bad thing that Pokémon become unviable without their ability? I mean, Pokémon like, say, Pigeot have been NU forever. Is that a problem? I don't know. If every Pokémon should be OU-viable, OU would be more crowded than it is already.
In my opinion, banning one Pokémon is better than banning the five or six Pokémon that benefit the most from that Pokémon is better. You can ban Kingdra, Kabutops, Manaphy, Ludicolo to Ubers, but what is Politoed then going to do in OU? I still propose banning Drizzle, since Rain Dancing with Damp Rock still is viable. Rain is obviously the strongest weather, so I think it can have its perks, right?
In my opinion, banning one Pokémon is better than banning the five or six Pokémon that benefit the most from that Pokémon is better. You can ban Kingdra, Kabutops, Manaphy, Ludicolo to Ubers, but what is Politoed then going to do in OU? I still propose banning Drizzle, since Rain Dancing with Damp Rock still is viable. Rain is obviously the strongest weather, so I think it can have its perks, right?
I never suggested that everything deserves to be OU, I know that is impractical. I'm merely trying to explain to people that the meta would be more diverse if Drizzle is still available to build Rain teams around, and that perhaps if its most powerful abusers are gone it could become balanced with respects to both the other weathers and non weather teams - which in my view is a more ideal meta than one where Rain is simply non-existent.
Like I mentioned, I believe that if the prime Rain abusers are banned (or some are, by no means all must be banned, only those found broken) then Rain will still be viable but less overpowered due to having to use such things as Floatzel, Qwilfish etc. And I disagree that Damp Rock Rain Dance will be very viable when PermaSun and Sand are still present in OU and stronger than ever before - in Gen 4 this would be the case, however.
And there is a rain abuser that is broken without Hydration/Swift Swim?, Or a sand abuser broken without Sandthrow?, Or a sun abuser broken without Chlorophyll?, i want to discuss it, i think that some abusers without these abilities can be powerful, but not broken.
if you ban politoad because it makes pokes broken with it's weather then shouldn't same rules apply for sand?
and you forgot about the "perks" of sand
it does have extra effects
rock type pokemon have SpDef increased by 50%
thunders accuracy is reduced to 50%
as for sun, you did forget chlorophyll leafeon, running off base 95, and with swords dance available, 130 base defence AND a recovery :P.
and scarfing the ninetails is pretty strong as well
and you forgot about the "perks" of sand
it does have extra effects
rock type pokemon have SpDef increased by 50%
thunders accuracy is reduced to 50%
as for sun, you did forget chlorophyll leafeon, running off base 95, and with swords dance available, 130 base defence AND a recovery :P.
and scarfing the ninetails is pretty strong as well
Consider this: Last generation OU banned Wynaut.
Seriously, what was the relevance of your post?
edit: Because I should probably contribute something, I think that in a "Ban Drizzle or abusers?" argument, Drizzle is what should go. Hopefully, they can both stay. But if people are going to ban something, let it be Drizzle.
Hey, it's not my fault people aren't smart enough to play around my team with Toxicroak o_0. It's not my fault I started exploiting huge metagame weaknesses to Birijion either (Oh, Kingdra can still check Toxicroak at least, although not very well =D).
Anyway, anyone think Jibaku's old 4th gen Ubers team (Vulcan Fury) would work well in the current metagame?? Latias/Heatran is a deadly as hell combo.
Leafeon doesnt have very many physical options outside of Leaf Blade, Return, and X-scizzors.
As far as I'm concerned Sand is just a broken as Rain. It doesnt have as many viable pokes but it's offensive options are second to none and it can make a stall team by increasing Rock type defense.
As far as I'm concerned Sand is just a broken as Rain. It doesnt have as many viable pokes but it's offensive options are second to none and it can make a stall team by increasing Rock type defense.
A "side-effect" can be broken as fuck. Drizzle is broken, so if people considered banning Damp Rock, a "weaker" Drizzle, then it's a problem. Same goes for Shadow Tag: Wobb was banned and so they even banned the inferior Wobb, Wynaut.
Giratina-O is kind of hard to replace, lol, but I suppose it could work.
Did you even read my post? Notice the words "Last generation". That is why that argument was null and void.
Banning Drizzle would only make other weather teams stronger. The source of weather is.. - Politoed. Destroy the source and the team is wrecked.
I recommend that Drizzle shouldn't be banned, because why did Kyogre get banned? First its because of its base stats and plus it can really really really abuse thunder. Politoed is not nearly strong as Kyogre. Kyogre on its own can rip teams apart, but Politoed?
Politoed could be worked around with if you play smart. For an example - ScarfLandlos - Explode on Toad - Usually a Ko, or a silver of HP is left - Toad usually switches - Switch Weather - Toad comes again - Kill it.
Prove me wrong if you must.
I recommend that Drizzle shouldn't be banned, because why did Kyogre get banned? First its because of its base stats and plus it can really really really abuse thunder. Politoed is not nearly strong as Kyogre. Kyogre on its own can rip teams apart, but Politoed?
Politoed could be worked around with if you play smart. For an example - ScarfLandlos - Explode on Toad - Usually a Ko, or a silver of HP is left - Toad usually switches - Switch Weather - Toad comes again - Kill it.
Prove me wrong if you must.
Yeah I have not found weather too bad. I think its just a matter of holding momentum, utalising prediction, wearing these things down. Sure I will often have a T-Tar as a back up check to weather but I don't really run a Sandstorm "team".
If we had to ban something though I would rather ban Manaphy instead of Drizzle. Throughout this thread people are mentioning Drizzle and Manaphy in the same breath and I would be more interested in seeing how Rain is without Manaphy than eliminating an entire playstyle
Have a Nice Day
If we had to ban something though I would rather ban Manaphy instead of Drizzle. Throughout this thread people are mentioning Drizzle and Manaphy in the same breath and I would be more interested in seeing how Rain is without Manaphy than eliminating an entire playstyle
Have a Nice Day
Hmm... please enlighten me about how Drizzle and Shadow Tag aren't broken this gen then. Not trying to sound like a douche, seriously. I simply think the guy had a point.
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