np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

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So then.
Do you ban the combination,even though the mons themselves have options,or do you ban the actual mons?

You ban the pokemon. None of the moves are broken, nor is the ability, since it requires the combination of them to be broken. Therefore the pokemon must be broken.

Yache SD chomp was broken last gen, but not other sets. We banned chomp, not the set.

Well I don't think Inconsistent on Magikarp would be broken. You could say that the combination of sub., protect, and inconsistent was what made it broken. But it's a mood point.

Sub and protect are nearly universal though. It's kinda like expecting a poke to have higher than 1 base hp. But it also had luck against it as well as being powerful.
 
You ban the pokemon. None of the moves are broken, nor is the ability, since it requires the combination of them to be broken. Therefore the pokemon must be broken.

Yache SD chomp was broken last gen, but not other sets. We banned chomp, not the set.

...But then, Specs Garchomp shouldn't have been banned. The pokémon isn't, nor the moves/ability/what-have-you. It was the combination of them!
 
You ban the pokemon. None of the moves are broken, nor is the ability, since it requires the combination of them to be broken. Therefore the pokemon must be broken.

Yache SD chomp was broken last gen, but not other sets. We banned chomp, not the set.



Sub and protect are nearly universal though. It's kinda like expecting a poke to have higher than 1 base hp. But it also had luck against it as well as being powerful.


Lets take the standard Shandera set:

Shandera
Modest
Shadow Tag
252 Sp.A/252 Speed/4 HP
-Overheat
-Energy Ball
-Shadow Ball
-HP Fighting/Ice

Take off Overheat. It still has Fire Blast.
Take off Fire Blast. It still has Flamethrower.
Take off Flamethrower. It still has Heat Wave.
Take off both of its STAB moves.
It still can trap and kill a tons of stuff.
Take away its Sp.A EVs.
It still OHKOs a crap ton of stuff.

Take away Shadow Tag. It's no longer broken.
So what's Shandera's combination exactly? Shadow Tag + STAB moves?
Shadow Tag + Scarf?(Even though it can still set up on some mons)

I'm seriously asking.
Wobb's combination is Encore + CounterCoat + ST.
But what's Gochi's and Shandera's?


I'd also like to add,that Inconsistent wouldn't really be broken on ANY mon....look an Unown and Wynaut/Wobbuffet for example.
 
Lets take the standard Shandera set:

Shandera
Modest
Shadow Tag
252 Sp.A/252 Speed/4 HP
-Overheat
-Energy Ball
-Shadow Ball
-HP Fighting/Ice

Take off Overheat. It still has Fire Blast.
Take off Fire Blast. It still has Flamethrower.
Take off Flamethrower. It still has Heat Wave.
Take off both of its STAB moves.
It still can trap and kill a tons of stuff.
Take away its Sp.A EVs.
It still OHKOs a crap ton of stuff.

Take away Shadow Tag. It's no longer broken.
So what's Shandera's combination exactly? Shadow Tag + STAB moves?
Shadow Tag + Scarf?(Even though it can still set up on some mons)

I'm seriously asking.
Wobb's combination is Encore + CounterCoat + ST.
But what's Gochi's and Shandera's?


I'd also like to add,that Inconsistent wouldn't really be broken on ANY mon....look an Unown and Wynaut/Wobbuffet for example.


Agreed.Shandera without Shadow Tag is one of the most terrible Pokemon in the 5th Gen.Who even uses Shandera in Wi-Fi?Terrible,terrible Pokemon.

Shadow Tag is a broken ability through and through.Take aways Shanderas Shadow Tag and it just becomes a crappy Fire Type with high special attack.
 
Lets take the standard Shandera set:

Shandera
Modest
Shadow Tag
252 Sp.A/252 Speed/4 HP
-Overheat
-Energy Ball
-Shadow Ball
-HP Fighting/Ice
hmmmm.......
I'm sensing something not quite right about that.



Anyway, since the only Shadow Tag pokemon to worry about right now is Wobbuffet, I'll give some input on him.

I don't actually think he's broken this Gen. If he uses Encore and immediately switches out, Encore has 1 turn left. So he is capable of giving your opponent 1 turn of free set-up. However, I can't think of a single sweeper that can sweep a well-crafted team with only one boost. Maybe Manaphy, but even then.......

As far as stalling purposes go, the one turn could be used to set up a Substitute. But the only defensive pokemon that is beastly with a Sub is Erufuun, due to priority SubSeed. If you want to call Erufuun an Uber (lololololol), go ahead.

As for CounterCoat, it doesn't do well with offensive pokemon. The bar has been raised this Gen, and a greater number of viable things can KO it. It can take the attacks of defensive pokemon, but because they do little damage, it can take multiple Encores to bring them down, which gives them multiple free hits on Wobb, wearing him down faster.

All that said, Wobb is still a monster, I just personally don't think it's broken. However, for its ability to trap things and KO them, I can see the arguments for its broken-ness.
 
Lets take the standard Shandera set:

Shandera
Modest
Shadow Tag
252 Sp.A/252 Speed/4 HP
-Overheat
-Energy Ball
-Shadow Ball
-HP Fighting/Ice

Take off Overheat. It still has Fire Blast.
Take off Fire Blast. It still has Flamethrower.
Take off Flamethrower. It still has Heat Wave.
Take off both of its STAB moves.
It still can trap and kill a tons of stuff.
Take away its Sp.A EVs.
It still OHKOs a crap ton of stuff.

Take away Shadow Tag. It's no longer broken.
So what's Shandera's combination exactly? Shadow Tag + STAB moves?
Shadow Tag + Scarf?(Even though it can still set up on some mons)

I'm seriously asking.
Wobb's combination is Encore + CounterCoat + ST.
But what's Gochi's and Shandera's?


I'd also like to add,that Inconsistent wouldn't really be broken on ANY mon....look an Unown and Wynaut/Wobbuffet for example.
for god's sake read more carefully...he is saying that shadow tag is broken on all the pokes that have it 'cause they have the tools to abuse it(stats,moves,etc)...if shadow tag was given to a poke that didn't have all the things that the other pokes with the ability have(shandera has a lot of immunities stellar sp.attck and can set up,wobbufet can guarantee a kill or give a free turn,the emo poke can set up and has great bulk)then shadow tag wouldn't have been broken...
and the conclusion is that shadow tag is not broken alone but with a pokemon that has the tools to abuse it,so the whole pokemon with shadow tag has to be banned not just the ability.of course because in the moment a pokemon with the ability st that can't abuse it doesn't exist,we could ban the ability for the time being...
 
of course because in the moment a pokemon with the ability st that can't abuse it doesn't exist,we could ban the ability for the time being...

I would argue that Wynaut is no longer able to abuse it.

And don't say "NFE!!!!!!" because I would bring up that Bidoof and Remoraid were deemed broken and they were NFE's. The fact that it is un-evolved does not mean that it doesn't count.
 
Evo stone Wynaut can't abuse it?
Isn't wynaut now bulkier than it's ever been?
probably broken everywhere but in standard/ubers.
Though standards all that matters I guess.
 
Evo stone Wynaut can't abuse it?
Isn't wynaut now bulkier than it's ever been?
probably broken everywhere but in standard/ubers.
Though standards all that matters I guess.

Evo Stone Wynaut's bulk is just a *tiny* bit more bulky than Wobb. But it loses Leftovers. Without Leftovers, Blissey KOes it. BLISSEY. Not to mention that Leftovers practically cancel out Iron Barbs. Without them, it cannot freely Counter Nattorei without being KOed.
My point being that it REALLY needs Leftovers to do anything at all.
 
I've kept quiet for the most part for the testing, but once I saw the votes for drizzle in the last round, I have to say something, even if it falls of deaf ears.

Drizzle is a playstyle which makes it a very unique suspect, which I personally think requires the most amount of testing. I really comes down to the question: Does rain break the pokemon/abilities or does the pokemon/abilities break rain? So what I think we should do is break it down. 1st-Test it in general. 2nd-Test it without manaphy. 3rd-Test it without SWIFT SWIM.

Let's be honest here, the problem is with swift swim. Would rain still be broken if swift swim was banned? I don't think so. It would also keep the playstyle and you won't have to ban a lot of pokemon. I personally see it as a win-win situation. I really don't get why this is not being more discussed.

In my honest opinion, you CAN'T ban rain because it is a playstyle, but since it looks like most of smogon doesn't agree with me, I guess majority rules.

Bolded what I feel to be the important part. I'll repeat what i said earlier in the thread since it was somewhat flung aside and buried, in case anyone wants to hear it. The banning of Swift Swim and Drizzle have been suggested heavily, as have a combination of the two. The problem with banning Drizzle is killing Rain as a playstyle somewhat. The problem with a combination is making increasingly complex clauses. The problem with banning Swift Swim alone is that clearly, not everything with it is broken. This brings me to my suggestion, which the post below helps illustrate:

One of the main supporting factors of Swift Swim's "brokenness" (I theory I do not personally subscribe to) is its distribution. Something like Shadow Tag is a candidate for ban because of its distribution on things that can take advantage of it easily. This same trait is reflected in Swift Swim's distribution: namely, the broken trio (Ludicolo, Kingdra, and Kabutops). These three can rip through teams with pure power and crazy speed, wearing down and destroying their "counters" with Rain-boosted, STAB moves or obscenely powerful Specs DM's. These three with swift swim MAKE Drizzle broken (largely, at least).

The "broken trio" of swift swimmers are admittedly incredibly powerful and in concert with one another, capable of dismantling whole teams with speed, boosted STAB and coverage. To me it seems like the problem with Rain (referenced by many people) is the sheer number of abusers of great power - someone can just keep throwing swift swimmers one after the other at the opponent until they crumble. This seems to be what makes it take little skill to asemble a Rain team in the words of others.

So why not try testing Rain's other abusers? Manaphy has already been considered as a suspect for its performance under Rain (yes not wholly but Hydration is a large factor), so why not Rain's other main abusers? Testing them together and determining which is most broken so to speak, then whittling them down until Rain is no longer "broken" by virtue of incredible abusers is another option noone seems to be discussing.

I think it's because more bans is considered bad, or that banning something purely because it's amazing under one weather is bad. To the former, I say that banning a whole playstyle and effectively making many pokemon unviable is worse than banning a few more in order to keep several playstyles alive. To the latter, all bans must be looked at in context - as mentioned below Chomp was banned for his Yache set, though other sets were not broken. Simply banning a moveset on a poke or an ability becomes very complex and doesn't seem like something we want to do.

You ban the pokemon. None of the moves are broken, nor is the ability, since it requires the combination of them to be broken. Therefore the pokemon must be broken.

Yache SD chomp was broken last gen, but not other sets. We banned chomp, not the set.
 
Create a clause that prevents Drizzle and Swift swim from being used on the same team.
So that swift swim strategies are restricted to rain dance + damp rock, while other strategies utilizing rain remain.
It solves any issues unless it's deemed that infinite rain is broken even without any swift swimmers to take advantage of it.
 
About drizzletoed i would like to say that i don't think it's broken.it centralizes the metagame to a large degree but not too much to handle.i just think that everyone finds rain so broken 'cause noone is thinking out of the box.everyone tries to win using a mix of their classic ou pokemons and the new ou-to-be pokemons.people need to adapt to the new situation and find ways to deal with the rain without being uncompetitive...here are some pokes that fare very good against rain after some battling i did using them:
-nattorei
you all know him i am not going to say anything.rain's biggest nemesis!
-specially defensive empoleon with rest talk or wish support
counters completely and absolutely the beast named kingdra and does a lot of other stuff like setting up sr,attacking with his very good sp.attck and keeping at bay a lot of stuff with his very good defensive typing.
-toxicroak
i love this guy.i use it on my own rain team and he usually 6-0 wins me matches.my favourite set is adamant max hp and max atc with drain punch,sucker punch,protect and bulk up.he counters kabutops without return,sp.attacking ludicolo(resists every attack of ludicolo except ice beam that can be easily healed with leftovers,dry skin,protect and drain punch)and half of the moveset of kingdra,which are the 3 more common rain sweepers.and he is not nearly useless outside of countering rain.he is one of the best counters to roobushin and zuruzukin(resisting both of their moves),brelloom after something has taken the sleep,and finally almost every water poke.
-birijion
another underrated poke.with a set of max hp and max sp.atc,calm mind,giga drain,hp ice and focus blast he can set up on almost every rain sweeper.he laughs at ludicolo and specially based kingdra after a cm,checks kabutops by resisting both stabs and ohkoing with giga drain and also rapes nattorei...
-gastrodon
yet another very very underrated pokemon.can check a lot of rain sweepers depending on the set...if it is max defence it can counter kabutops,omastar without hp grass,and sometimes kingdra,and if it is specially defensive sometimes kabutops,sometimes kingdra and always omastar and dragonite.and generally he is a very useful bulky water with nice immunities and resistances and good offences.
-blissey
she can wall any specially based rain sweeper as u already know...
-water absorb pokes
they can generally assist in taking powerful water hits and not only.
there are obviously a lot more but they are the ones that i tried...and of course u can always change the weather with your own weather inducer or with a weather move.
are these options for effectivley battling against rain limited?i don't think so...
 
You ban the pokemon. None of the moves are broken, nor is the ability, since it requires the combination of them to be broken. Therefore the pokemon must be broken.

Yache SD chomp was broken last gen, but not other sets. We banned chomp, not the set.

You ban the cause of the problem. Are Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, and 90% of other rain sweepers broken withiut rain? Not even near. Are they broken with rain? Yes.

Therefor, Rain is the cause of these pokemon being broken. If it was only one pokemon who became broken in the Rain, then that single pokemon would be at fault, but Drizzle makes many pokemon broken.

It's like I said before, Drizzle gets banned, then Dory gets banned, then the metagame will probobly be near stable. Because Dory is the only real broken factor of sand. Landos hardly cares about it, and Garchomp is relying on luck to get any benifit whatsoever.

Oh, and Garchomp wasn't banned just due to Yache SD. Substiture to abuse Sand Veil in Sandstorms, Choice Scarf Outrage cleaning, power bhind the Choice Band set. If all Garchomps were Yache, then Scarfed Dragons would be the answer, no? Or even Latias for the breif period both were in OU during Stage 3.

Also, the best argument I've seen for Drizzle not being Uber is "It's not hard to beat" without any justification. No-one's really given anything that can solidly counter, or even check, rain, that's not going to gimp yourself against every other team out there.


And to those people claiming it doesn't matter how many abusers Rain has, while Sand has just three offensive threats:

More abusers = more flexiable, more unpredictable, and harder to counter. Against Sand, you just have to check Chomp and Landos [Ice types, Froslass/Mamoswine...] and Dory [Roopushin/Azumarill]. Against Rain, you have Manpahy, Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo, Toxicroak, the list goes on. Unlike Sand, where you only have to prepare for physical attacks, rain, you have to prepare for all sorts of things.

And, I find whoever mentioned making a stall team with the 50% Sp.Def boost for Rock types, with Sandstorm, hilarious. With all the new, powerful fighting types everywhere? Craydily dosen't stand a chance. Sand was used on Stall teams in Gen 4 for the residual damage, not for the Sp.Def boost.

A stall team is far more likly to run Hail in Gen 5, due to Abomasnow 'handleing' the two main weathers [Read, being able to switch in on Poli/T-Tar/Hippo], and the chosen weather not only damageing more types, but also being less risky. You don't want to benifit the other team, and Hail is the group with the least pokemon who benifit.

Of course, Stall, in this metagame? You have to be kidding me.

Also:

About drizzletoed i would like to say that i don't think it's broken.it centralizes the metagame to a large degree but not too much to handle.i just think that everyone finds rain so broken 'cause noone is thinking out of the box.everyone tries to win using a mix of their classic ou pokemons and the new ou-to-be pokemons.people need to adapt to the new situation and find ways to deal with the rain without being uncompetitive...here are some pokes that fare very good against rain after some battling i did using them:
-nattorei
you all know him i am not going to say anything.rain's biggest nemesis!
-specially defensive empoleon with rest talk or wish support
counters completely and absolutely the beast named kingdra and does a lot of other stuff like setting up sr,attacking with his very good sp.attck and keeping at bay a lot of stuff with his very good defensive typing.
-toxicroak
i love this guy.i use it on my own rain team and he usually 6-0 wins me matches.my favourite set is adamant max hp and max atc with drain punch,sucker punch,protect and bulk up.he counters kabutops without return,sp.attacking ludicolo(resists every attack of ludicolo except ice beam that can be easily healed with leftovers,dry skin,protect and drain punch)and half of the moveset of kingdra,which are the 3 more common rain sweepers.and he is not nearly useless outside of countering rain.he is one of the best counters to roobushin and zuruzukin(resisting both of their moves),brelloom after something has taken the sleep,and finally almost every water poke.
-birijion
another underrated poke.with a set of max hp and max sp.atc,calm mind,giga drain,hp ice and focus blast he can set up on almost every rain sweeper.he laughs at ludicolo and specially based kingdra after a cm,checks kabutops by resisting both stabs and ohkoing with giga drain and also rapes nattorei...
-gastrodon
yet another very very underrated pokemon.can check a lot of rain sweepers depending on the set...if it is max defence it can counter kabutops,omastar without hp grass,and sometimes kingdra,and if it is specially defensive sometimes kabutops,sometimes kingdra and always omastar and dragonite.and generally he is a very useful bulky water with nice immunities and resistances and good offences.
-blissey
she can wall any specially based rain sweeper as u already know...
-water absorb pokes
they can generally assist in taking powerful water hits and not only.
there are obviously a lot more but they are the ones that i tried...and of course u can always change the weather with your own weather inducer or with a weather move.
are these options for effectivley battling against rain limited?i don't think so...

Nattorei: Can't handle a whole team. Dosen't exactly like Ice Beams, Toxicroak is sometimes found on Rain.
Toxicroak: Firstly, you revealed your bias, you're defending rain, yet you use it. Secondly, it's sometimes found on rain teams, and Toxicroak, ironically, walls Toxicroak.
Birijion: Yes, it's underrated. But it's also weak to Ice, and if you're having to go for Max/Max to get it set up, that's gonna bite you against... more or less any other playstyle? Bear in mind, most Kingdra are physical or mixed. They'll outspeed, and then Outrage. Some might even DD or Sub as you Calm Mind, which will ruin anything Birijion can do.
Gastrodon: Nattorei is almost always on rain teams. NEXT!
Blissey: Kabutops, Kingdra, Manaphy will get to +6 and then kill it. NEXT!
Water Absorb: Ludicolo, Kingdra, Kabutops all carry another powerful STAB. This isn't even a check.
Weather moves: Where are you getting this free turn to switch in, and the ability to take another hit, before setting up? And, Politoad will just switch back in, and you're not gonna switch in twice. This isn't even viable, let alone a check.
 
You ban the cause of the problem. Are Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, and 90% of other rain sweepers broken withiut rain? Not even near. Are they broken with rain? Yes.

Therefor, Rain is the cause of these pokemon being broken. If it was only one pokemon who became broken in the Rain, then that single pokemon would be at fault, but Drizzle makes many pokemon broken.

It's like I said before, Drizzle gets banned, then Dory gets banned, then the metagame will probobly be near stable. Because Dory is the only real broken factor of sand. Landos hardly cares about it, and Garchomp is relying on luck to get any benifit whatsoever.

Oh, and Garchomp wasn't banned just due to Yache SD. Substiture to abuse Sand Veil in Sandstorms, Choice Scarf Outrage cleaning, power bhind the Choice Band set. If all Garchomps were Yache, then Scarfed Dragons would be the answer, no? Or even Latias for the breif period both were in OU during Stage 3.

Also, the best argument I've seen for Drizzle not being Uber is "It's not hard to beat" without any justification. No-one's really given anything that can solidly counter, or even check, rain, that's not going to gimp yourself against every other team out there.


And to those people claiming it doesn't matter how many abusers Rain has, while Sand has just three offensive threats:

More abusers = more flexiable, more unpredictable, and harder to counter. Against Sand, you just have to check Chomp and Landos [Ice types, Froslass/Mamoswine...] and Dory [Roopushin/Azumarill]. Against Rain, you have Manpahy, Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo, Toxicroak, the list goes on. Unlike Sand, where you only have to prepare for physical attacks, rain, you have to prepare for all sorts of things.

And, I find whoever mentioned making a stall team with the 50% Sp.Def boost for Rock types, with Sandstorm, hilarious. With all the new, powerful fighting types everywhere? Craydily dosen't stand a chance. Sand was used on Stall teams in Gen 4 for the residual damage, not for the Sp.Def boost.

A stall team is far more likly to run Hail in Gen 5, due to Abomasnow 'handleing' the two main weathers [Read, being able to switch in on Poli/T-Tar/Hippo], and the chosen weather not only damageing more types, but also being less risky. You don't want to benifit the other team, and Hail is the group with the least pokemon who benifit.

Of course, Stall, in this metagame? You have to be kidding me.

Also:



Nattorei: Can't handle a whole team. Dosen't exactly like Ice Beams, Toxicroak is sometimes found on Rain.
Toxicroak: Firstly, you revealed your bias, you're defending rain, yet you use it. Secondly, it's sometimes found on rain teams, and Toxicroak, ironically, walls Toxicroak.
Birijion: Yes, it's underrated. But it's also weak to Ice, and if you're having to go for Max/Max to get it set up, that's gonna bite you against... more or less any other playstyle? Bear in mind, most Kingdra are physical or mixed. They'll outspeed, and then Outrage. Some might even DD or Sub as you Calm Mind, which will ruin anything Birijion can do.
Gastrodon: Nattorei is almost always on rain teams. NEXT!
Blissey: Kabutops, Kingdra, Manaphy will get to +6 and then kill it. NEXT!
Water Absorb: Ludicolo, Kingdra, Kabutops all carry another powerful STAB. This isn't even a check.
Weather moves: Where are you getting this free turn to switch in, and the ability to take another hit, before setting up? And, Politoad will just switch back in, and you're not gonna switch in twice. This isn't even viable, let alone a check.
nattorei:did i say he can counter a whole team???
toxicroak:why does it matter to you if i use rain or not?u should try to counter my arguements not criticize my preferences...and because i like him as a poke i have a bias???are u serious???and toxicroak is a counter to himself ok...what do u want to prove???

birijion:so what if birijion is weak to ice?that's why u have calm mind and 129 base sp.defence ffs...and with the spread i wrote it can stiil act as a great general check to a lot of pokes like doryuzu,any bulky water,tyranitar and a lot more that i guess that u could try to think of...and also pls bear in mind that a lot of kingdras are actually specs!!!

gastrodon:do u see what u write???rly???because there is a grass poke that can wall gastrodon means that he cannot wall the rain sweepers???so let me think...if i try to bring my gastrodon in to wall the opposing kabutops i can't 'cause he has nattorei???maybe i can predict his nattorei switch in and send something in that can handle nattorei?maybe???i am just asking...

blissey:i don't even talk about manaphy who will be banned very soon...so she can't do anything because there is kabutops huh???maybe i can twave the switch in?i am asking again???or maybe the opponent's special attacks are going to kill blissey just 'cause kabutops exist???or maybe i can just switch into something that can handle kabutops???

water absorb pokes...so for example burungeru cannot burn kingdra or toxic ludicolo cause they have dragon and grass attacks...u must be kidding!

weather moves:who told u that u will know that i have a weather move before i kill your weather inducer?
 
Even though it seems likely that Rain is the main problem here and not Manaphy, surely it would make sense to set up two Suspect ladders, one where Manaphy is banned and one where Drizzle is? This would actually let us determine which variable is broken, or if both are. Would this be possible?
 
Anyone considered using Kingdra on a Sunny Day team?? I've been using it lately and it is pretty funny what it can actually do in the sun. I only thought of the idea since I hate Nattorei so much, so I decided to run a Sunny Day team with Hidden Power Fire Kingdra and it's so fun killing those Nattorei who think I can't do crap to them (and then I end up sweeping their Rain team with it, too). While it might seem out of place, Kingdra actually synergises really well in a Sunny Day team, it forms one of those stupidly overrated FWG cores, but the best thing is that it 4x resists Fire attacks that demolish such teams. It also sends a big "F-you" to rain teams who think they can get away with spamming Surf all the time. Think Palkia partnered up with Groudon, and Kingdra in the sun won't sound so random.
 
Anyone considered using Kingdra on a Sunny Day team?? I've been using it lately and it is pretty funny what it can actually do in the sun. I only thought of the idea since I hate Nattorei so much, so I decided to run a Sunny Day team with Hidden Power Fire Kingdra and it's so fun killing those Nattorei who think I can't do crap to them (and then I end up sweeping their Rain team with it, too). While it might seem out of place, Kingdra actually synergises really well in a Sunny Day team, it forms one of those stupidly overrated FWG cores, but the best thing is that it 4x resists Fire attacks that demolish such teams. It also sends a big "F-you" to rain teams who think they can get away with spamming Surf all the time. Think Palkia partnered up with Groudon, and Kingdra in the sun won't sound so random.

That sounds really interesting actually. Might have to give it a shot, definitely.

I have used Garchomp on a sunny day team to great effect (not even your Skarmory is safe :naughty:).
 
I've been using ulgamoth on my rain team, it's suprisingly effective as well.

Bug Buzz, butterfly dance, HP Water, hurricane.
Holding leftovers, it's hilarious to sweep with it.

I can see why Kingdra would be effective
 
You ban the cause of the problem. Are Kingdra, Ludicolo, Kabutops, and 90% of other rain sweepers broken withiut rain? Not even near. Are they broken with rain? Yes.

Therefor, Rain is the cause of these pokemon being broken. If it was only one pokemon who became broken in the Rain, then that single pokemon would be at fault, but Drizzle makes many pokemon broken.

It's like I said before, Drizzle gets banned, then Dory gets banned, then the metagame will probobly be near stable. Because Dory is the only real broken factor of sand. Landos hardly cares about it, and Garchomp is relying on luck to get any benifit whatsoever.

Oh, and Garchomp wasn't banned just due to Yache SD. Substiture to abuse Sand Veil in Sandstorms, Choice Scarf Outrage cleaning, power bhind the Choice Band set. If all Garchomps were Yache, then Scarfed Dragons would be the answer, no? Or even Latias for the breif period both were in OU during Stage 3.

Also, the best argument I've seen for Drizzle not being Uber is "It's not hard to beat" without any justification. No-one's really given anything that can solidly counter, or even check, rain, that's not going to gimp yourself against every other team out there.


And to those people claiming it doesn't matter how many abusers Rain has, while Sand has just three offensive threats:

More abusers = more flexiable, more unpredictable, and harder to counter. Against Sand, you just have to check Chomp and Landos [Ice types, Froslass/Mamoswine...] and Dory [Roopushin/Azumarill]. Against Rain, you have Manpahy, Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo, Toxicroak, the list goes on. Unlike Sand, where you only have to prepare for physical attacks, rain, you have to prepare for all sorts of things.

And, I find whoever mentioned making a stall team with the 50% Sp.Def boost for Rock types, with Sandstorm, hilarious. With all the new, powerful fighting types everywhere? Craydily dosen't stand a chance. Sand was used on Stall teams in Gen 4 for the residual damage, not for the Sp.Def boost.

A stall team is far more likly to run Hail in Gen 5, due to Abomasnow 'handleing' the two main weathers [Read, being able to switch in on Poli/T-Tar/Hippo], and the chosen weather not only damageing more types, but also being less risky. You don't want to benifit the other team, and Hail is the group with the least pokemon who benifit.

Of course, Stall, in this metagame? You have to be kidding me.

Also:



Nattorei: Can't handle a whole team. Dosen't exactly like Ice Beams, Toxicroak is sometimes found on Rain.
Toxicroak: Firstly, you revealed your bias, you're defending rain, yet you use it. Secondly, it's sometimes found on rain teams, and Toxicroak, ironically, walls Toxicroak.
Birijion: Yes, it's underrated. But it's also weak to Ice, and if you're having to go for Max/Max to get it set up, that's gonna bite you against... more or less any other playstyle? Bear in mind, most Kingdra are physical or mixed. They'll outspeed, and then Outrage. Some might even DD or Sub as you Calm Mind, which will ruin anything Birijion can do.
Gastrodon: Nattorei is almost always on rain teams. NEXT!
Blissey: Kabutops, Kingdra, Manaphy will get to +6 and then kill it. NEXT!
Water Absorb: Ludicolo, Kingdra, Kabutops all carry another powerful STAB. This isn't even a check.
Weather moves: Where are you getting this free turn to switch in, and the ability to take another hit, before setting up? And, Politoad will just switch back in, and you're not gonna switch in twice. This isn't even viable, let alone a check.

Admittedly Rain is what causes the problem with pokes such as Kabutops and Ludicolo, however as I said before, if a pokemon has a broken aspect then it is banned entirely irrelevant of whether it is broken in other roles. And again, my reason for not banning Drizzle entirely and instead going after its abusers is so as to not eliminate Rain as a team archetype. SS isn't a good example as Dory is arguably the only broken element, but even so noone has contemplated banning Sand Stream whatsoever, as ridding ourselves of the abusers will solve the issue.

Chomp I'll admit isn't the best example, but the point stands - at present we ban an entire pokemon rather than a broken element for simpplicity's sake.

I'll post some ways which may help beat Rain since you pointed out the thread lacks them. Obviously, any team running another auto-weather poke can switch in after every kill and reset the weather. Things like Cress, Tentacruel, etc can run Hail or Sunny Day to annul the weather after the opponent has let their inducer die - which having team preview and seen your lack of weather is a possibility. To avoid this overspecialising your team take advantage of it with Fire Move users or Moonlight on Cress, and pack T-Spikes on Tentacruel to stack residual damage. Kabutops is taken care of by Mach Punches quite well, and Extremespeed helps significantly with the other Swift Swimmers. Wobuffett can be used to eliminate Politoed or a problematic Swift Swimmer if you can deal with the rest as well as having amazing setup utility. Anything which can threaten Politoed and force it to switch can give you a free hit on an abuser coming in (useful if you have T-Wave or a sleep move) when it comes in to set Rain up. Of course, each Swift Swimmer individually has counters, and if you have some way of eliminating the one most problematic to your team - be it Wobby, Paralysis, Sleep or Priority, and counters to others, then you can avoid the ability of the SSers to cover each other's weaknesses by taking out one of them, and try to exploit that hole in the opponent's team.
 
I disagree with banning drizzle + dory. To me, it seems to be a double standard. Banning a sweeper (it will end up being two, sandslash is not much worse, trading off a bit of power and speed, still outspeeding scarfchomp, for no mach punch weakness) for one case and then banning the weather for the other. Especially since banning the best 2 or 3 swift swimmers (Kabutops may be good, but its very fragile, and priority will have its head, so I don't think it needs banning) for rain will probably make it non-broken as well. (And manaphy I guess, but Latios, birijion, some others, outpseed it and trash it. I'm not convinced its broken, even with rain. It also has 4-moveslot syndrome- energy ball or ice beam?)

And Raikaria, that comment was about shadow tag, not drizzle.


Also stop with all the poor logic.

If something is not broken without rain, and broken with it, that does not mean that it is the root of the problem.

Lets try an example. Lets say rain, as well as those pokemon, were always allowed, but surf/hydro pump/waterfall didn't exist, and were introduced this gen, and as a result the following pokemon became broken. Does that mean the powerful water moves are broken? Nope.

It is simply one of a combination of factors that make a pokemon broken.



Drizzle may still be uber for support. I just hate that quite a few people keep repeating this poor logic, with shadow tag and with rain.
 
Don't ban dory, he can easilly be countered.

Drizzle needs to be banned. Not the abusers. Jesus christ, it's not that hard to understand.

If you ban the abusers, you do realize that you'll end up banning all pokemom with rain based abilities, don't you? Unless you want Luvdisc banned, I suggest you quit using that arguement.

Wanna know why?
How do you define whether something is broken in the rain? Gorebyss and huntail are nice trick roomers. You ban the rain abusers, you ban them. Kingdra is a phenominal dragon dancer, yet you want it banned. Kabutops is a usable lead. Poliwrath had uses before it got swift swim. Let people use rain dance, not drizzle,
 
Don't ban dory, he can easilly be countered.

Drizzle needs to be banned. Not the abusers. Jesus christ, it's not that hard to understand.

If you ban the abusers, you do realize that you'll end up banning all pokemom with rain based abilities, don't you? Unless you want Luvdisc banned, I suggest you quit using that arguement.

Wanna know why?
How do you define whether something is broken in the rain? Gorebyss and huntail are nice trick roomers. You ban the rain abusers, you ban them. Kingdra is a phenominal dragon dancer, yet you want it banned. Kabutops is a usable lead. Poliwrath had uses before it got swift swim. Let people use rain dance, not drizzle,

If that's the case then that means they're all still viablle except for Ludicolo, which isn't bad since even in Gen IV kingdra was a powerful poke, like you said, without rain and was hard to stop once it set up if you didn't have something that could. If I may ask, what would happen once rain is banned? I like to hear both sides of the argument and I am wondering what the ramifications, if any, would be if it is indeed banned.
 
I suppose I'm a little late to the party, but these guys in the 'Landlos for Ubers' camp had me laughing with their arguements.

"Landlos can tank LO Latias Surf!"
"Landlos OHKOs everything at +2 with sand!"

a) You have to have sand up, and keep it up. Not too hard. Too bad Landlos and Sand Streamers share a lot of weaknesses
b) You have to get a Swords Dance up. I think they just assume that everything that exists is going to switch out of Landlos, and let it get a Swords Dance.
c) It can OHKO everything!!! I guess these guys have never heard of revenge killers? Plus Ground is one of the most resisted / immune to types in the game with the boatload of Levitators and Flying-types.
d) You can hit those with Stone Edge for an OHKO!!! I hate to break it to you, but if you use Stone Edge, you're not using Swords Dance. Plus, I can use the prediction arguement as well; "I switch in Scarf Metagross as you Stone Edge".
e) Landlos, while having good stats, is not very bulky, especially with Life Orb and Stealth Rock eating away at its health. 22% every time you come in and fire off an attack sucks.

There. Felt I needed to say that.

I'm not sure why I was quoted when I never said Landlos should be uber. In any case...

a) For rain sweepers, you've got to keep the rain up. Not too hard. Too bad rain sweepers share either an electric or grass weakness. Dory is weak to fighting, which Landlos resists.

b) I'll give you this. I always wondered in fourth gen when garchomp was banned, why the arguement was always, "But what counter can tank a +2 outrage!"

I don't really have anything to say about the rest.
 
Also stop with all the poor logic.

If something is not broken without rain, and broken with it, that does not mean that it is the root of the problem.

Lets try an example. Lets say rain, as well as those pokemon, were always allowed, but surf/hydro pump/waterfall didn't exist, and were introduced this gen, and as a result the following pokemon became broken. Does that mean the powerful water moves are broken? Nope.

It is simply one of a combination of factors that make a pokemon broken.

Drizzle may still be uber for support. I just hate that quite a few people keep repeating this poor logic, with shadow tag and with rain.

If this statement refers to me, then let me explain. I know Drizzle is the root of the problem, but what I suggest is to instead of cutting it at the root - trim the branches so to speak, by removing abusers, thereby leaving the tree alive, just weakened rather than culling it entirely. Strange plant metaphor but I'm sure you understand.

Also I must point out that your example seems as far as I can see to support my point of view. If a combination of factors - for instance a weather based ability, typing, powerful moves and good stats make a pokemon broken together (albeit under only one weather), then surely that pokemon should be banned by that logic?

Don't ban dory, he can easilly be countered.

Drizzle needs to be banned. Not the abusers. Jesus christ, it's not that hard to understand.

If you ban the abusers, you do realize that you'll end up banning all pokemom with rain based abilities, don't you? Unless you want Luvdisc banned, I suggest you quit using that arguement.

Wanna know why?
How do you define whether something is broken in the rain? Gorebyss and huntail are nice trick roomers. You ban the rain abusers, you ban them. Kingdra is a phenominal dragon dancer, yet you want it banned. Kabutops is a usable lead. Poliwrath had uses before it got swift swim. Let people use rain dance, not drizzle,

I fail to see how banning the top Rain abusers will lead to Luvdisc earning a ban. Like I've said many times, an incremental testing of Rain abusers until the Rain Offense team is no longer so overbearingly powerful is all that is needed, not some sort of Swift Swim nuke. Floatzel, Qwilfish, Gorebyss and Omastar in place of some of the present abusers I'd wager makes Rain much less effective and less "broken".

The way brokenness for these pokemon could be determined is fairly simple; just as with any other poke - its ability to sweep large portions of the meta with ease, difficulty countering, and as such overcentralisation in order to take it out. Seperating any tests to be incremental would help identify each Rain Sweeper's brokenness. All that needs to be different is that brokenness needs to be compared to ease at which the environment it excels under (Rain) is present. Which I would imagine would be part of how something like Dory would be tested, not to say that it should.

Like I've said many times, if a pokemon has a role that is not broken, but it also has roles which prove to be, then it is banned. It doesn't matter if Gorebyss and Huntail are usable TRers, Kabutops is a useful lead, or even that Kingdra is an excellent DDer. If they are broken in another role, they should be banned, just as any other pokemon in any circumstances would! You can argue that Drizzle should be banned instead, or that defining brokenness in Rain is tricky, but saying that something shouldn't be banned because it has other roles just doesn't hold up under the current system.


@Moe1216: In my opinion only, the benefits of banning Drizzle are that it cuts the root of the problem, simplifying the process drastically and making it easier for all involved. The consolations are that Rain can still be used with damp rock, and that pokes like Kingdra are still available for general use, though these can't really be used as arguments for its banning. The problems are that, I believe, that in an environment with Sun and Sand much improved and permanent, Damp Rock Rain will be ineffective and non-viable, reducing a good many Rain abusing pokes to obscurity and eliminating the playstyle of Rain Offense as well as the more niche Rain Stall entirely - effectively reducing meta diversity by a great deal.

The proposed Swift Swim+Drizzle ban on the same team has the benefits of allowing Hydration and Rain Stall based strategies to continue at full strength, while offering a Clause as a solution. Consolations are again that Rain with Damp Rock is possible for those using Rain Offense, and that all its abusers are possible to be used in other roles. Problems are the precedent for which a conjunction ban sets, as well as Rain Offense being in the same situation as in the above scenario.

Banning abusers of Rain which are made broken by it, until the lack powerful of partners in crime means that Rain abusers and Rain itself are no longer to some degree broken, has the benefit of keeping Rain as a playstyle in OU entirely and I believe therefore maintaining meta diversity. Consolations are that Politoed is still useful and that most probably some of the current Rain abusers are, whilst lesser Swift Swimmers can be used to take their place and maintain the team archetype. The negatives are that Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo etc are no longer usable in any role, and the more complex nature of the testing.

I suppose that banning Kabutops, Kingdra etc from being on a team with Drizzle is entirely possible, but like the second suggestion far too complex and sets a difficult precedent.
 
They are not broken in rain, they're broken in drizzle rain. Rain existed in the form of a move, and it still does. For the 50th time, ban drizzle, people can use rain dance.

In 4th gen, rain abusers were not banned because rain timed out after several turns. Rain abusers are still not broken. Drizzle is what is broken.
 
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