np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[SJCrew]

I really question why Sun is being brought up at all in these proceedings. I don't find any of the abusers (or Ninetales for that matter) difficult to deal with. With Venusaur, its coverage can only be so good, so it can always be walled, and Ninetales is even crappier than Toed defensively. I don't see why sun would ever need to be banned, and as a counter to Drizzle it is, in a word, abysmal.

Have you ever composed or used a good Sun team? I got to 1st page in one day using a Sun team. And guess how many Rain teams I had to trample to get there.

People are slowly beginning to realize how versatile Sun teams can be. Grass types put a lot of pressure on Rain teams and Blaziken cleans up pretty hard. Only problem is Sand, which is sometimes a little trickier because it has two inducers, both of which can beat Ninetales directly if her weather is not up. But I do remember sweeping this one guy's team with Ninetales after Ttar and Hippowdon died. And it wasn't even offensive, lol.

If you want to make a good Sun team work, don't use an offensive LO Ninetales and have a good spinner around. Both will help keep you in the fight longer. I usually only pack one Chlorophyll sweeper, but if you're really confident, you can double up. Grass types can only get you so far, you know.

 

[masterful]

lol, have you ever composed or used a good Sun team? I got to 1st page in one day using a Sun team. And guess how many Rain teams I had to trample to get there.

People are slowly beginning to realize how versatile Sun teams can be. Grass types can eat Rain alive and Blaziken cleans up on weakned teams pretty hard. Only problem is Sand, which is sometimes a little trickier because it has two inducers. But I do remember sweeping this one guy's team with Ninetales after Ttar and Hippowdon died lol.

While sun is nice when playing against Drizzle noobs, it is easily handled by better players, and there is no point in banning it (at least not for a while)

 

[SJCrew]

I'm not advocating a ban right now. Drizzle is obviously the bigger problem. But again, if you think that Sun only works against people who are bad at using Drizzle, and that Drizzle should theoretically win all the time, you have a lot to learn about the playstyle. It will be bannable material once the elephant is out of the room.

 

[masterful]

I'm not advocating a ban right now. Drizzle is obviously the bigger problem. But again, if you think that Sun only works against people who are bad at using Drizzle, and that Drizzle should theoretically win all the time, you have a lot to learn about the playstyle. It will be bannable material once the elephant is out of the room.

I was simply referring to the people who make up the largest number of Drizzle players as of now. With Ninetales' frailty, a very well-made Drizzle team should win the majority of the time unless your team is specifically built to counter them

 

[Benlisted]

Sand is indeed a bigger threat to Sun than Rain, but by no means is Sun only good against Rain. I strongly suggest that you try it yourself Masterful. Anyway, against a strong Sun team, the powerful Grass types can prevent Politoed from switching in for fear of a Grass move, as well as some sweepers. Don't forget that as long as Sun stays up Rain's power is not 1.5x, but 0.5x as well, robbing them of a major offensive tool, and the Nattorei they so love to run to patch up common weaknesses is horribly vulnerable to Fire. Initial team advantages are not clear cut - but of course if the Rain player can exploit Tales' frailty and SR weakness in particular then they will have the advantage. Forry or a similar spinner can make this hard though - as Rain rarely packs a Fire move and hence he has no weaknesses under their own weather.

SJ, I agree with you that if Drizzle is banned Drought will have doubt cast upon is as to its own brokenness, I just don't think that is the correct course of action in the first place.

 

[Zephyr]

I hope the points pool starts growing faster because its hard trying to stay above 1300 when the deviation is so merciless.

Also I still haven't seen rain being unstoppably broken myself.

 

[SlimMan]

Shit. I had this huge post all typed up, and I was actually saying something intelligent for once. So I got to post it and BAM! my laptop runs out of power.
I suppose I'll just reply to more people's comments now. :(

But a pointless one, at that

Hardly. We're discussing a unique aspect of the metagame, which will be directly affected by how we handle a broken thing (rain).

Lmao @ hat XD. Anyway, true, Kabutops is quite frail and its typing makes it very susceptible to revenging by Mach Punches in particular, and that venusaur is reasonably bulky. However in the case of Ludicolo for example, its bulk if pretty significant too and it's typing is very advantageous. Tangrowth is incredibly bulky and powerful but also hellishly slow, Mebukijika and Victreebel are very frail but otherwise excellent, and Kingdra is simply balanced and doen't excel at anything too much stat-wise. In terms of stats/typing both weathers have quite a variety amongst their top abusers, though I'll give you that Rain can be somewhat more frail overall, and easier to revenge. In terms of coverage, you're probably right that type coverage is better for chlorophyll abusers - but Sun does have severe issues with being walled by either Heatran or Dragon types who laugh at Fire/Grass moves and require different attacks to counter. Water being such a good neutral type as well as the Rain boost to it is ofc a huge boon too though.

What you said about them being walled by Heatran/Dragons.
Rain has serious issues with being walled by Nattorei. But one pokemon can take only so much abuse.

And another boon to Sun is something that we both already mentioned: the ability to go mixed. While the only mixed rain sweepers are Kingdra and (lol) Huntail, Sun has Victreebel, Exeggutor, Blaziken, Tangrowth, etc.

But most of what you said is true.

And aye, for sure Power Swap Overheat, WoW, Hypnosis etc are far worse than SR, Encore or the like, albeit not useless. It doesn't help that in the role Tales is forced into it would very much like support moves over offensive ones. In terms of switching in, for Sun a slow U-turner can be invaluable for this very reason, though holding a balloon lets it come in somewhat easier.

Indeed. But how many slow U-turnes are there that fit well into a Sun team? Also, I agree that Tales really wants better support moves. Lava Plume would be nice.

 

[Benlisted]

What you said about them being walled by Heatran/Dragons.
Rain has serious issues with being walled by Nattorei. But one pokemon can take only so much abuse.

And another boon to Sun is something that we both already mentioned: the ability to go mixed. While the only mixed rain sweepers are Kingdra and (lol) Huntail, Sun has Victreebel, Exeggutor, Blaziken, Tangrowth, etc.

But most of what you said is true.

Indeed. But how many slow U-turnes are there that fit well into a Sun team? Also, I agree that Tales really wants better support moves. Lava Plume would be nice.

True, Nattorei is a big problem unless you run FB on Ludicolo or maybe Brick Break on Kabutops (idk if this can even KO at +2 and if it doesn't then this is moot since a power whip destroys him, however.) Admittedly there are more mons which wall Sun sweepers severely - but the usage of Nattorei makes up for this entirely. Perhaps though, the fact that more things counter Sun sweepers so well and only one does the same for Rain (correct me if I'm wrong an other things give Rain the issues Nattorei does), is one that causes problems. As SJ said, he thinks Natt is the only thing casting doubt on Drizzle's brokenness, so I get the impression Natt is the primary wall giving Rain the issue - and as only this one otherwise viable pokemon being the only one able to be used to counter Rain so easily is more restricting than having the option of say a Dragon or Heatran on your team, who can fit into more roles simply as they are more of them and they are more diverse in role.

Mixed on one set is indeed a benefit, I can't really say more, other than I feel that it isn't a decisive factor, but I can't really say why other than other things seem more influential on the power of the respective sweepers.

Yeah, there are few slow U-Turns and many more fast ones that fit well. Volt Change Forry is very good, and I suppose BP Umbreon could abuse Sun but i've really never felt the need for a Dark type at all.

 

[masterful]

Shit. I had this huge post all typed up, and I was actually saying something intelligent for once. So I got to post it and BAM! my laptop runs out of power.
I suppose I'll just reply to more people's comments now. :(



Hardly. We're discussing a unique aspect of the metagame, which will be directly affected by how we handle a broken thing (rain).



What you said about them being walled by Heatran/Dragons.
Rain has serious issues with being walled by Nattorei. But one pokemon can take only so much abuse.

And another boon to Sun is something that we both already mentioned: the ability to go mixed. While the only mixed rain sweepers are Kingdra and (lol) Huntail, Sun has Victreebel, Exeggutor, Blaziken, Tangrowth, etc.

But most of what you said is true.




Indeed. But how many slow U-turnes are there that fit well into a Sun team? Also, I agree that Tales really wants better support moves. Lava Plume would be nice.

Nattorei is the least of a rain team's worries, with STAB and the power boost neutralizing the resistance, things like Specs Kingdra can power through. Water absorb pokes fare similarly well, being obliterated by the coverage moves pokes like Kingdra carry, and messed up by Ludi. Also, following the (potential) ban of rain, Drought will become arguably less useful, so I fail to see how a discussion about it is warranted

 

[shrang]

or maybe Brick Break on Kabutops

Kabutops can use Low Kick, which (IIRC) OHKOs Nattorei at +2.

Infernape is actually really underrated these days. You have stuff like Nattorei, Burungeru, Gliscor and Blissey/Chansey as your main defensive cores these days, and guess what, in the sun, Nasty Plot Ape eats up the lot. +2 Fire Blast in the sun is absolutely ridiculous, don't even bother trying to wall Infernape since Gyarados and stuff are OHKOed by Fire Blast anyway (I think).

 

[SlimMan]

Nattorei is the least of a rain team's worries, with STAB and the power boost neutralizing the resistance, things like Specs Kingdra can power through. Water absorb pokes fare similarly well, being obliterated by the coverage moves pokes like Kingdra carry, and messed up by Ludi.

Notice how I said that it can only take so much abuse. Notice that I didn't say it counters rain teams.

Also, following the (potential) ban of rain, Drought will become arguably less useful, so I fail to see how a discussion about it is warranted

siriusly?

Drought will become WAY better without rain over-shadowing it. For one thing, it's one less weather to worry about. Fewer things for your opponent to do to make you lose the Sunlight.

 

[masterful]

Kabutops can use Low Kick, which (IIRC) OHKOs Nattorei at +2.

Infernape is actually really underrated these days. You have stuff like Nattorei, Burungeru, Gliscor and Blissey/Chansey as your main defensive cores these days, and guess what, in the sun, Nasty Plot Ape eats up the lot. +2 Fire Blast in the sun is absolutely ridiculous, don't even bother trying to wall Infernape since Gyarados and stuff are OHKOed by Fire Blast anyway (I think).

Blaziken can pretty much do the same thing, but is faster if played right

Notice how I said that it can only take so much abuse. Notice that I didn't say it counters rain teams.




siriusly?

Drought will become WAY better without rain over-shadowing it. For one thing, it's one less weather to worry about. Fewer things for your opponent to do to make you lose the Sunlight.

Sand can really mess with sun, and the loss of rain will make a lot more people turn to teams with pokes that can easily take on sun, like Tyranitar and even Heatran

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Blaziken can pretty much do the same thing, but is faster if played right

With what Agility? Sure in DW its better but in Standard you need to run Agility.

 

[XienZo]

Blaziken can pretty much do the same thing, but is faster if played right

Except, y'know, the Nasty Plot part, which is the whole point of that set.

With what Agility? Sure in DW its better but in Standard you need to run Agility.

Isn't DW Blaziken already released?

 

[Benlisted]

Nattorei is the least of a rain team's worries, with STAB and the power boost neutralizing the resistance, things like Specs Kingdra can power through. Water absorb pokes fare similarly well, being obliterated by the coverage moves pokes like Kingdra carry, and messed up by Ludi. Also, following the (potential) ban of rain, Drought will become arguably less useful, so I fail to see how a discussion about it is warranted

I'd argue that since so many things crumple to Rain sweeper's offences, Natt is quite a worry given the walling it does to all 4 main sweepers (Manaphy included) unless they choose to run a Fighting move, with only Ludi and Kabutops can really. And yeah, as Slimman says, when Rain is gone Sun will become a lot more common as those playing offensive weather teams will shift to it, and there will be one less major problem stopping Sun staying up.

@ Your other posts, just because Sand gives Sun some big problems doesn't mean it cannot get around them. SJ provides evidence of double inducer SS being beatable, and I've done the same. With weather VS weather the inducer war is half the battle - and though Sun's abusers have the advantage over the SS team, it's Tales letting them down against Sand so badly, as TTar really is the bane of her existense.

Kabutops can use Low Kick, which (IIRC) OHKOs Nattorei at +2.

Infernape is actually really underrated these days. You have stuff like Nattorei, Burungeru, Gliscor and Blissey/Chansey as your main defensive cores these days, and guess what, in the sun, Nasty Plot Ape eats up the lot. +2 Fire Blast in the sun is absolutely ridiculous, don't even bother trying to wall Infernape since Gyarados and stuff are OHKOed by Fire Blast anyway (I think).

Ah yes, I always forget he gets Low Kick X(. Infernape fared well for me as a pure attacker in Sun, but I never thought to try the NP set. It was so useful with priority I'd definitely try out Vaccum Wave though, as it served as an excellent revenger with Iron Fist Mach Punch, and did well as a late game sweeper anyway.

 

[masterful]

Except, y'know, the Nasty Plot part, which is the whole point of that set.



Isn't DW Blaziken already released?

Yet it can SD, which gives it more power

 

[SJCrew]

Yeah, there are few slow U-Turns and many more fast ones that fit well. Volt Change Forry is very good, and I suppose BP Umbreon could abuse Sun but i've really never felt the need for a Dark type at all.

Just use Scizor. He can take at least one good Draco Meteor too, which is especially useful considering Ninetales attracts Dragon types like flies to a bright light.

In terms of coverage, you're probably right that type coverage is better for chlorophyll abusers - but Sun does have severe issues with being walled by either Heatran or Dragon types who laugh at Fire/Grass moves and require different attacks to counter.

Venusaur has STAB Sludge Bomb to OHKO most Dragons at +2, STAB Grass to kill Garchomp, and EQ for Heatran (probably not since Balloon is the shit now, but you can cut your losses and switch out on that one). There aren't really any common Scarfers faster than him either.

Shiftry has Dark Pulse, which OHKOs most Dragons at +2, Low Kick to OHKO Heatran at +2 (and Sazandora, the only Dragon Dark Pulse doesn't cover in OU), and Hidden Power Fire to OHKO anything those moves won't cover.

Exegguttor is really slow, but fast enough to be a sweeper; it learns Low Kick for Heatran and can put most Dragons to sleep or KO at +2 with HP Ice. It'd be a problem if Sleep Clause was activated and you opted for HP Fire instead, but then again...switch.

Venusaur, Doredia, Tangrowth, Victreebel, and Exeggutor have access to Sleep Powder. The only one I'd say is anywhere close to unviable is Doredia, simply because its movepool is awful and gets walled by something common no matter which HP it chooses. Butterfly Dance is really tempting, but you'd have to do some hardcore clearing before you can get a good sweep going.

 

[SlimMan]

Sand can really mess with sun, and the loss of rain will make a lot more people turn to teams with pokes that can easily take on sun, like Tyranitar and even Heatran

Sand can mess with Rain. But if Tyranitar is your only way of beating a rain team, you're going to lose to a well-played rain team.

So if Sand messing with Sun makes Sun bad, why doesn't it make Rain bad? Because it should by using your logic.

And about Tyranitar taking on the sun.
It LOVES absorbing Venusaur's Power Whip or Exeggutor's Leaf Storm. It EASILY switches in on Blaziken's HJK or Infernape's Focus Blast.
Tyranitar does niot "easily take on the sun".


edit: You can hardly say that Blaziken is always better than Infernape. Infernape has better coverage and can boost his Sp Atk.

You said that SD gives Blaziken more power than NP gives Infernape. Well, Slaking has more power than a Metagross. But that doesn't make it better.

 

[capefeather]

MALE Speed Boost Blaziken is available.

Also, people really do need to keep second-order metagame effects in mind. As masterful pointed out, it's entirely possible that sand will become MORE stable with Drizzle banned, and that that sun will be balanced out as a result. Second-order metagame effects are the most common aspects ignored when theorymonning, and that's why theorymon is looked down on so much.

 

[masterful]

Just use Scizor. He can take at least one good Draco Meteor too, which is especially useful considering Ninetales attracts Dragon types like flies to a bright light.


Venusaur has STAB Sludge Bomb to OHKO most Dragons at +2, STAB Grass to kill Garchomp, and EQ for Heatran (probably not since Balloon is the shit now, but you can cut your losses and switch out on that one). There aren't really any common Scarfers faster than him either.

Shiftry has Dark Pulse, which OHKOs most Dragons at +2, Low Kick to OHKO Heatran at +2 (and Sazandora, the only Dragon Dark Pulse doesn't cover in OU), and Hidden Power Fire to OHKO anything those moves won't cover.

Exegguttor is really slow, but fast enough to be a sweeper; it learns Low Kick for Heatran and can put most Dragons to sleep or KO at +2 with HP Ice. It'd be a problem if Sleep Clause was activated and you opted for HP Fire instead, but then again...switch.

Venusaur, Doredia, Tangrowth, Victreebel, and Exeggutor have access to Sleep Powder. The only one I'd say is anywhere close to unviable is Doredia, simply because its movepool is awful and gets walled by something common no matter which HP it chooses. Butterfly Dance is really tempting, but you'd have to do some hardcore clearing before you can get a good sweep going.

The problem with these sleepers is the same one many others have faced in the past. While something has all these moves, it can't use them well, and a good team will be able to expose those gaps and take advantage of them, halting your sweep

 

[XienZo]

Yet it can SD, which gives it more power

Using SD defeats the point of using it as a special sweeper...

Edit:

Man, I feel like I'm playing Ace Attorney Investigations here. Seriously, the original goal was to beat a core of four Pokémon as Shrang mentioned in his post. To be relevant, you'd argue that Blaziken doesn't defeat these Pokémon.

Right, I wasn't paying attention.

 

[capefeather]

Using SD defeats the point of using it as a special sweeper...

Man, I feel like I'm playing Ace Attorney Investigations here. Seriously, the original goal was to beat a core of four Pokémon as Shrang mentioned in his post. To be relevant, you'd argue that Blaziken doesn't defeat these Pokémon.

 

[masterful]

Sand can mess with Rain. But if Tyranitar is your only way of beating a rain team, you're going to lose to a well-played rain team.

So if Sand messing with Sun makes Sun bad, why doesn't it make Rain bad? Because it should by using your logic.

And about Tyranitar taking on the sun.
It LOVES absorbing Venusaur's Power Whip or Exeggutor's Leaf Storm. It EASILY switches in on Blaziken's HJK or Infernape's Focus Blast.
Tyranitar does niot "easily take on the sun".


edit: You can hardly say that Blaziken is always better than Infernape. Infernape has better coverage and can boost his Sp Atk.

You said that SD gives Blaziken more power than NP gives Infernape. Well, Slaking has more power than a Metagross. But that doesn't make it better.

That last argument is so absurd and without backing I will not degrade myself to honor it with a response. Secondly, it's cute how you think you can cite coverage moves that hit a poke and act as if that makes them useless. If that were so, any pokemon could be unbeatable. Yet there is this thing called speed and intelligent switching and this other thing called Tyranitar can easily obliterate Ninetales and no one on sun teams enjoys taking Stone Edges or Fire Blasts in conjunction.

 

[SlimMan]

Just use Scizor. He can take at least one good Draco Meteor too, which is especially useful considering Ninetales attracts Dragon types like flies to a bright light.

Timid LO Latios does a max of 92.1% with a Draco Meteor followed by a -2 Draco Meteor to 248 HP/ 0 Sp Def Scizor.
Possible KO after SR.

 

[ensoriki]

Have you ever composed or used a good Sun team? I got to 1st page in one day using a Sun team. And guess how many Rain teams I had to trample to get there.

When was this, I got to first page in one day too, was the second day.

I wouldn't mind lati@s being gone, Draco meteors every fucking where.