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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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That's the thing dude... none of those checks are reliable. SD will deal with Skarm and Nattorei (in fact, Rock Polish sets finish Nattorei off if hazards are in play) Birijion is a decent check, but significant damage from EQ (it can only switch in once and is outright KOed with hazards) and the Lati twins can only switch in on SD or EQ (they take heavy damage from Stone Edge)
Landlos doesn't even need to setup on rain, it can 1-OHKO every rain sweeper when sand is up. I guarantee that Landlos will be a suspect next round.
mostly playing with sun i can tell you:
rain is not broken outside of manaphy and i dont even run natt or brijion. rain faces the problem that every time a chlorophyller is out means an ohko and believe it or not tales is a good switch in to toed
sand on the other hand is harder mostly couse scarftar is a bitch, that and landlos. seriously RP landlos is almost as scary as manaphy
but playing with sun i have found a very good poke to run as an extra inssurance vs sand. if you think brijion is good on rain try terakion on sun, seriously its a goodsend facing ttar
as the metagame is right now rain = HO always, sand is balanced and sun can be either HO or balanced (urgamoth vs heatran for instance) and it always resume to last inducer alive to the point sometimes the last pokes are toed vs tales or hippo vs tales.
rain is not broken outside of manaphy and i dont even run natt or brijion. rain faces the problem that every time a chlorophyller is out means an ohko and believe it or not tales is a good switch in to toed
sand on the other hand is harder mostly couse scarftar is a bitch, that and landlos. seriously RP landlos is almost as scary as manaphy
but playing with sun i have found a very good poke to run as an extra inssurance vs sand. if you think brijion is good on rain try terakion on sun, seriously its a goodsend facing ttar
as the metagame is right now rain = HO always, sand is balanced and sun can be either HO or balanced (urgamoth vs heatran for instance) and it always resume to last inducer alive to the point sometimes the last pokes are toed vs tales or hippo vs tales.
You sure you raised EQ to 130 BP? Because my calc is getting 44.3% - 52.1% with Jolly LO EQ. And for fun, here's the calc with an Adamant nature: 48.6% - 57.4%.
In my honest opinion, Landlos is broken. You can say Bronzong and Skarmory counter but they both lose to SD. If you have a stall team, and you are facing an SD Landlos it might as well be game over. I've said this before on IRC, but to me it is like 'a better Gen 4 Garchomp'.
Landos can't OHKO Ludicolo, I think. At +0. I might be wrong.
But that's not the point. Landos is a massive problem. It has bulk, great typing, Base 101 Speed [What a troll], and Base 125 Attack, with a 33% boost thrown in.
Then it has both Rock Polish and Swords Dance, and between them, Landos just dosen't have any counters. The best checks are things like CB Mamoswine/Azumarill, hell, even Weavile, but they only really force it to switch out, it can come back in later, and wreck havok.
And the thing with Landos, is that while he appreciates Sandstorm, he sure as hell dosen't need it. All he gets is a 33% boost, and that sure dosen't matter if he's cleaning a team.
I think most people are probobly coming to the same conculsion as I am. Landos is possibly broken. Especially if Rain proves broken. If that happens...
Oh, and, I'm also seeing more and more Latios, and their Draco Meteors are taking half HP out of even Steels such as Heatran [Said Heatran being slightly bulky, as it was a Subtran]. I wouldn't be shocked if Latios ends up suspect again, despite being voted OU last round. Darkrai was probobly what was keeping it in check last round, or maybe Skymin flinching it to death.
Speaking of Skymin, wasn't ScarfSkymin an excellent check to rain? Those Seed Flares... now it's gone... no wonder Rain seems so dominant.
In all honesty, right now, OU is severely chaotic. There are three team types in mainstream play, Rain, Sand, and anti Sand/Rain Stall [Stall teams that wouldn't usually work, due to being overspecialised, but can just about hold worse rain/sand players at bay]
Anyway, after playing a lot more today, I now have slightly different opinions on what should be banned:
Drizzle
Landos
Latios
Yeah, Dory's been replaced by Landos, and Latios has been added to the list. That Dragon is too bulky, too fast, and hits far too hard with Specs attacks. Then there's bulky Calm Minders.
But that's not the point. Landos is a massive problem. It has bulk, great typing, Base 101 Speed [What a troll], and Base 125 Attack, with a 33% boost thrown in.
Then it has both Rock Polish and Swords Dance, and between them, Landos just dosen't have any counters. The best checks are things like CB Mamoswine/Azumarill, hell, even Weavile, but they only really force it to switch out, it can come back in later, and wreck havok.
And the thing with Landos, is that while he appreciates Sandstorm, he sure as hell dosen't need it. All he gets is a 33% boost, and that sure dosen't matter if he's cleaning a team.
I think most people are probobly coming to the same conculsion as I am. Landos is possibly broken. Especially if Rain proves broken. If that happens...
Oh, and, I'm also seeing more and more Latios, and their Draco Meteors are taking half HP out of even Steels such as Heatran [Said Heatran being slightly bulky, as it was a Subtran]. I wouldn't be shocked if Latios ends up suspect again, despite being voted OU last round. Darkrai was probobly what was keeping it in check last round, or maybe Skymin flinching it to death.
Speaking of Skymin, wasn't ScarfSkymin an excellent check to rain? Those Seed Flares... now it's gone... no wonder Rain seems so dominant.
In all honesty, right now, OU is severely chaotic. There are three team types in mainstream play, Rain, Sand, and anti Sand/Rain Stall [Stall teams that wouldn't usually work, due to being overspecialised, but can just about hold worse rain/sand players at bay]
Anyway, after playing a lot more today, I now have slightly different opinions on what should be banned:
Drizzle
Landos
Latios
Yeah, Dory's been replaced by Landos, and Latios has been added to the list. That Dragon is too bulky, too fast, and hits far too hard with Specs attacks. Then there's bulky Calm Minders.
SJ, in your experience, how easy is it to set up growth with your chloro sweepers and how long do you have to wait before you send them in to sweep? (mid game? late game?). Even then, what things do you see commonly halting your sweep?
My rant on exeguttor was indeed unnecessary. I saw him mentioned and got a bit annoyed.
My rant on exeguttor was indeed unnecessary. I saw him mentioned and got a bit annoyed.
Also, I'd just like to point out that while HP Ice is very handy for taking Gliscor, Garchomp, and other Landlos out in one blow, you can easily run a double boosting set to the effect of Terakion and bring your number of counters down to absolutely zero. After the right boost, nothing wants to deal with you, really.
Also, you can just about use him like Doryuuzu and revenge sweepers mid-lategame, then bring him out for the finale. Don't get to cocky with him though, he has no bulk at all.
You can expect just about anything that doesn't like a Grass move to run off on you. Be careful about Ice Beam. I run Shiftry right now, so Roopushin is the biggest problem I have. Scizor doesn't worry me nearly as much, since a lot of people get him killed by switching into HP Fire or want to be funny and gamble with U-turn. Joke's on them.
Also, you can just about use him like Doryuuzu and revenge sweepers mid-lategame, then bring him out for the finale. Don't get to cocky with him though, he has no bulk at all.
ya venusuar is a pretty good sweeper. After a growth it's pretty difficult to wall specially since it has sleep powder for its counters and a free boost. People usually get too greedy with him though, he doesn't really need to be +6 +6 to sweep.
I completely agree with Landlos and Latios, but I really think we should explore banning Swift Swim more instead of banning Drizzle... I know this topic has been beaten to death before but I'll take another stab at it.
Since last round where I voted to keep Drizzle around, I've slowly come around to the idea that the Swift Swimmers are really too much to handle in permanent rain. Note that I'm not saying Drizzle is too much to handle. On its own, the benefits Drizzle provides aren't really game-breaking IMO. Waterfall only has 80BP and the highest Special Attack on an OU Water type is something around 110.
Look, maybe Drizzle on its own (i.e. without the ability Swift Swim around) would still be broken. But I really think we should test Drizzle without the Swift Swimmers around to see if this is the case. Ideally in my mind we would:
1) ban the ability Swift Swim this round
2) evaluate Drizzle's suspect status in the following round
3) if Drizzle still proves to still be overpowering, we'd undo the ban on Swift Swim (i.e. nominate and vote it to be brought down from Ubers) and just ban Drizzle. If not, we enjoy the benefits of having Drizzle around in OU (Rain Stall, balancing out the other weathers). Yes, we make a small sacrifice (no more Gen. IV Damp Rock Rain Teams) but in terms of what will commonly be seen in OU and creating a diverse and balanced metagame, I think this a small price to pay.
Seriously guys what's the harm in testing Drizzle next month without Swift Swim around? Don't give me theorymon on why it would be broken because we know how useless that is. Worst case we just ban Drizzle at the beginning of March and bring Swift Swim back.
This concept of "Fair" doesn't make sense.
Why does anything have to be fair to Kingdra or fair to Kabutops.
If you ask that a rain team must bring rain dance, then a non-weather team could bring a weather move of their own as utility.
Rains not necessarily broken because non-weather struggles with it.
Non-weather mostly isn't up to snuff.
I still support the idea of a clause on drizzle but w/e.
On banning swift swim I'm not against it either I quite rather Drizzle stay.
I would support Lati@s removal.
Nintendo should just release ditto already.
I know this is long, but please read the whole thing to prevent looking stupid if you quote it.
Sand, the best counter to rain, is of course going to be more prevalent than the thing it counters. It was also around before drizzle was, so more people are used to it.
I completely disagree that everything you can play with drizzle banned is playable now.
As is stands, everyone has 1 of 5 weather inducers, uses their manuvering to kill the opponent's 1 of 5 inducers while losing as few pokemon as possible, then uses the boost they get from their said weather with the last set of about 9 pokemon (manaphy, kingdra, kabutops, landlos, dory, tek, tangrowth, venusaur, and shiftry) which have only a specific set of counters that were on each team already to counter the opposite type of weather... leaving us with 20-25 actually useful and used enough pokemon to call OU (there are very obvious patterns on teams as to counters and support). Weather itself causes centralization because it is free and powerful with a small range of counters.
Getting rid of drizzle only fixes part of the issue, and in fact may cause a larger issue as it will let sand up from its most notable opponent. The fact of the matter is that as long as there is a weather that auto-boosts semi-permanently speed and/or damage on a pokemon, the metagame will be extremely centralized around it. My suggestion, as stated previously, makes it so each weather is still viable, just requires a turn to use and a more diverse and less predictable team to pull off. If we drop sandstream, drizzle, and drought, they will all still be just as viable in comparison to each other, but will create a larger and more stable metagame where there is an abundance of play styles, strategies, and probably still a good amount of weather.
The problem now isn't that I'm crying over a change to a weather meta. The problem is that a weather meta allows for minimal diversity not only in pokemon choice but in play styles. To keep this type of meta would make anyone who wants to use any pokemon outside of that small set play UU.
Also, I would prefer if you all would wake up and realize what I mean here. Its not a question of if auto-weather is overpowered, as it has obviously taken complete hold of the meta. The real question you need to fight against to prove that auto-weather is fine is my statement that it is over-centralizing. What would you say is the size of the pool of usefull pokemon right now?
5 auto weather+9-10 sweepers+10 reliable counters? (from reading along the post) This would bring us to every team running 1-2 weather, 2-3 sweepers, and 2-3 counters for other weather.
Now, with this in mind how does a player win? by destroying the opponent's 1-2 weather users before they destroy yours if the opponent uses a different weather. By using 1-2 of your counters to fend off the same weather type. Where is the diverse set of playstyles normally associated with strategy? To me this sounds more like playing Modern Warfare 2, where you all use the same small set of guns with the same set of perks (abilities) and it all just comes down to who plays the single most powerful style the best.
Neither rain, sand, nor sun are broken if the weather lasts only 5 or 8 rounds. Much of the problem stems from being able to switch to a counter, wall an opponent's sweeper/counter with your counter, and much later switch back to a sweeper without even needing a turn to change between. It is literally normally a win to whoever gets their weather up last.
Having an unexpected pokemon with a random weather also isn't very viable in this meta, as you'll need to utilize that weather pretty fast to prevent a sweep (unless you're using those 10 counters, in which case this solves nothing for the meta), and then they see your weather inducer the same as any other, but with a 1 turn handicap that makes it much easier to kill. A single pokemon also can't counter each weather with a type that would benefit the team in another way, since hail is the only real choice to stop all the boosters.
Weather balances out nicely against itself. The problem is that there's maybe 3 play styles, and 20-25 viable pokemon (meaning pokemon that aren't outclassed by another at making, abusing, or stopping weather... as is another common reason for the change from ou to uu). OU is about not being centralized, and having a variety of play styles and a large pool of pokemon that is even sometimes able to dip into the UU pool for specific situations. This current meta has absolutely none of the characteristics of a good metagame except for partial balance.
Edit:
I forgot to mention, but I was mostly agreeing with the quoted post xD banning drizzle alone does very little to help the meta. (though that last statement, it was 58%.... but no one veted against ban, it was either abstain or ban.)
It's a waste of time. We already know what the culprit is. Swift Swim may be part of the problem, but Drizzle is 100% the culprit. In a metagame with permanent Rain, a lot of things have a chance to be broken together on the same team. Trying to defect the issue to just speed does not solve the rabid power increase, Hydration users, or Rain Dish. We don't need to try and keep permanent Rain around just to see how 'not broken' we can make it when we could just make the right move on the first go and get rid of permanent Rain.
Also, that way, all Rain tactics, including Swift Swim, can still be used via the traditional method of setup, just not as handily since their boost is no longer permanent. Rain would be right back to where it started in 4th gen, where it was perfectly fine and didn't need to have its beneficiaries banned just to balance out. We have a proven method to achieve balance with this playstyle without taking it off the map and your way just doesn't cut it.
Putting Manaphy aside (as it is already a suspect even without permanent rain) the ONLY thing remotely broken about rain is the Swift Swimmers in the rain. I haven't heard anyone complaining about Parasect, Tentacruel, Toxicroak, or Vaporeon being broken. Saying Drizzle is the culprit for rain being broken is narrow-mindend and unfair. It's easy to feel that way because DrizzleToed is the new factor introduced this generation. Together they're definitely broken. Alone Swift Swim isn't. If Drizzle isn't broken alone, we should really be asking which ability will create the better OU metagame.
No. Rain would be 10 times worse than it was in 4th gen. because of the boosts to Sand and the presence of Ninetales.
i think the problem is kingdras typing, with having dragon typing it instanly loses the 2 common weaknesses (grass+electric), ludicolo, i have bug and poison around, and manaphy should not have even been put in OU gen V in the first place.
i would rather have all weathers available with the broken stuff removed, rather then have "gen 4 version2"
i am getting sick and tired of latios 1HKOing everything as well
i would rather have all weathers available with the broken stuff removed, rather then have "gen 4 version2"
i am getting sick and tired of latios 1HKOing everything as well
I disagree with your conclusion among other things but im feeling lazy.
There are much more than Every weather can run stall, balanced and offense, and likely those inbetween styles.
Regardless of whether weather is here or not, OU doesn't change a small population of the total amount of pokemon are viable, and many who are viable are based on whats currently popular.
50+ pokemon don't need to be viable in OU to have an OU metagame and every weather can do more than one playstyle.
Whatever happened in gen 4 doesn't matter, this is a new game.
I'm starting to think banning specific pokemon is better.
Not every swift swimmer is amazing, that being self-evident by the best options being taken.
There are much more than Every weather can run stall, balanced and offense, and likely those inbetween styles.
Regardless of whether weather is here or not, OU doesn't change a small population of the total amount of pokemon are viable, and many who are viable are based on whats currently popular.
50+ pokemon don't need to be viable in OU to have an OU metagame and every weather can do more than one playstyle.
Whatever happened in gen 4 doesn't matter, this is a new game.
I'm starting to think banning specific pokemon is better.
Not every swift swimmer is amazing, that being self-evident by the best options being taken.
Swift swimmers are the broken part of drizzle. But you have to keep in mind that their ability would be virtually useless without drizzle in play. Therefore it is drizzle who's broken, not the swimmers themselves. Nobody says tentacruel/vapreon/parasect are broken because they are walls. How many times out of 100 do you hear somebody complaining about being swept by a wall instead of a swift swimmer like kingdra?
Sand does not work with 8 turn weather. 8 turns of sandstorm really limits the viability of sand stall. You can put up sun/rain for 8 turns and attempt to plow through everything or do as much damage as possible in those turns. You can't really put up sand for 8 turns and try to stall with it. I guess the same argument can be made for rain stall or sun stall if that even exists but as long as the swift swim/chlorophyll abusers exist, you won't see any of those.
And sand HO isn't good despite certain strong pokemon like dory and landlos. First because it lacks any variety as there are a total of 3 pokemon that can really abuse sand for offense. Second because all of these pokemon need setup to sweep. On paper they seem strong, but in reality, once a counter/revenge killer is sent out against one of them and kills it, the rest of them can't even do anything as they all share the same weakness and don't get the opportunity to set up.
I'm actually against banning drizzle as a whole because I feel it does remove an entire playstyle where something like rain stall can still exist without being broken and should definitely be tested as such. It's the wrong attitude to ban everything outright without testing it as there are literally no tests nor complaints regarding rain dish/hydration being broken aside from manaphy. Does rain still provide good bonuses without swift swim? Of course but you expect it to offer some benefit just like how sandstorm boosts SDef and deals passive damage. But is it broken without the speed? You can't really say for sure until you test it. Think about something like kabutops. Without rain, it's way harder for it to SD because what's switching in is gonna outspeed and kill it so it can only hit with unboosted attacks. Where something like +2 SE or waterfall can kill something, a +0 would only be a 2HKO allowing it to be killed way more easily. Or take specs kingdra. If it kills something, no longer do you need to switch to your weather inducer 1st and then switch out to a revenge killer just so it can be outsped and revenged. You can bring in the revenge killer directly because it now outspeeds and isn't at risk of having to switch into a specs hydro pump just to revenge kill.
And sand HO isn't good despite certain strong pokemon like dory and landlos. First because it lacks any variety as there are a total of 3 pokemon that can really abuse sand for offense. Second because all of these pokemon need setup to sweep. On paper they seem strong, but in reality, once a counter/revenge killer is sent out against one of them and kills it, the rest of them can't even do anything as they all share the same weakness and don't get the opportunity to set up.
I'm actually against banning drizzle as a whole because I feel it does remove an entire playstyle where something like rain stall can still exist without being broken and should definitely be tested as such. It's the wrong attitude to ban everything outright without testing it as there are literally no tests nor complaints regarding rain dish/hydration being broken aside from manaphy. Does rain still provide good bonuses without swift swim? Of course but you expect it to offer some benefit just like how sandstorm boosts SDef and deals passive damage. But is it broken without the speed? You can't really say for sure until you test it. Think about something like kabutops. Without rain, it's way harder for it to SD because what's switching in is gonna outspeed and kill it so it can only hit with unboosted attacks. Where something like +2 SE or waterfall can kill something, a +0 would only be a 2HKO allowing it to be killed way more easily. Or take specs kingdra. If it kills something, no longer do you need to switch to your weather inducer 1st and then switch out to a revenge killer just so it can be outsped and revenged. You can bring in the revenge killer directly because it now outspeeds and isn't at risk of having to switch into a specs hydro pump just to revenge kill.
@lamppost
"Swift swimmers are what break drizzle"
The ability being situationally amazing doesn't mean shit if the conditions are easily met.
Based on this being a weather metagame it shouldn't even be a problem.
Banning Drizzle because people are lazy & impatient to have their ideal metagame so quick fixes are what they want. Anything worth doing is worth doing right.
@astro
All weather has a rock to increase it's duration.
Smooth rock increases sandstorm to 8 turns, it's simply never been used because there has never been a use for it.
"Swift swimmers are what break drizzle"
The ability being situationally amazing doesn't mean shit if the conditions are easily met.
Based on this being a weather metagame it shouldn't even be a problem.
Banning Drizzle because people are lazy & impatient to have their ideal metagame so quick fixes are what they want. Anything worth doing is worth doing right.
@astro
All weather has a rock to increase it's duration.
Smooth rock increases sandstorm to 8 turns, it's simply never been used because there has never been a use for it.
Well at least you didn't directly quote me and look like an idiot after i said to make sure you understood the whole post. you listed 3 play styles, which is what i stated. also 20-25 pokemon OU is overcentralized, no matter how you look at it. out of those pokemon, you will see almost continuously the same sets of about 9 different teams (3 for each weather) with slight variations based on what counters they are trying (the equivalent of using UU pokemon, commonly outclassed by the normal 10 counters) or feel more threatened by.
I said "This would bring us to every team running 1-2 weather, 2-3 sweepers, and 2-3 counters for other weather." This accounts for each style of play you lisetd except for a team with 1 or 0 sweepers (hyper defense, fine but uncommon because it has trouble with all the boosted damage) or 1 or 0 counters (hyper offense, which will commonly be countered by a normally balanced weather team's counters)
yes, and none of them should have the stall part as long as they have the power/speed part. sandstorm can't be treated differently just because it was around in the past.
i know what happened in gen 4 doesnt matter, but i think it is only fair if we have ALL weather inducers available to play with and the broken stuff removed, that would make a more diverse metagame, if drizzle goes it will be sand all over again
or what about removing baloon? so it is harder for dory to get in
or what about removing baloon? so it is harder for dory to get in
Simply put ask yourself, what playstyles can weather not technically run.
Oh and if bring screens you can run a lot more stuff
It's the glass-half-empty-half-full argument all over again. I could just as easily argue that while Drizzle is by no means useless on its own, Swift Swim is the factor which pushes it over the edge, and should therefore be banned. Why do so many people have problems understanding this argument?
Um yeah...thanks for backing up my point I guess?
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