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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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Holy shit, what the fuck? I honestly can't stop myself from telling you how stupid you both are. The hell is Omastar doing to be broken? Using "Please OHKO me as I set up Break" to catch that OHKO on Blissey, who otherwise walls it 6 ways from Sunday? How the hell is Toxicroak broken? What the hell does Tornelos even have to do with anything in the rain? Hey, while we're at it, let's compare more things that are broken because of fuck all.
Jesus Christ, not all Swift Swimmers or Rain Abusers or Weather Abusers in general are broken. Only about a maximum of 4 are. Cool your jets, both of you.
8-turn rain still fixes literally nothing. It just makes the broken things harder to use.
What a genius point. Of course, since 8-turn rain and Swift Swimmers were around last gen, it would be broken this gen. Also, it's common knowledge that you always switch in set-up pokes against ones that can KO them. Genius. I never thought of it that way. Oh wait, I did. No duh you don't set up on something that can KO you. By your logic pretty much every set-up poke ever sucks. Learn to play, dude
As far as I'm concerned if I voted right now I don't know what I would vote for/against, or if it would be the best overall choice. Being here and reading all the opinions of others means that if I ladder and get to vote I can make a good and informed decision.
The problem with 8-turn rain isn't that its broken though. It's that reducing rain to 8 turns is a double standard; a suggestion to balance Dory by removing Sandstream in favor of 8-turn Sandstorm would be considered absurd by everyone.
If we're applying one policy (banning sweepers) for one problematic playstyle(sand), there's no reason to use a completely different policy(banning infinite weather) for another playstyle(rain) where the original policy would still be applicable.
The non-uber Cloudy Day users are rarely used. The pokemon that learn Trace (Porygon 2 and Gardevoir) either won't outspeed anyways or are even lesser used and won't usually kill before dying themselves and Dragon Dance or Specs Kingdra will beat Gardevoir and Porygon 2 is never ever going to be running Scarf. Lickilicky can potentially maybe work (on the special side against rain) although still with lack of reliable recovery will wear him down and physical rain users will crush him, especially after a boost. His negation of rain is only temporary as well. Golduck is pretty good against Sand teams but rain teams not so much and will not like Rock Polish Landlos and Nattorei. Golduck's main stab is resisted by rain and things like Ludicolo and Kingdra can set up on it and again, Cloudy Skies only lasts as long as the user is in (I think) and you could switch in Politoad again anyways later.
You can't throw Ninetails on a team randomly and outside of sun, really has little use for most teams although it does at least have some sort of bulk with Will-O-Wisp and amazing special defense that let's it survive numerous water attacks with sun. But weakness to Stealth Rock and Rock and sand teams are pretty tough. Abomasnow is a little better although Steel/Fighting/Rock/Fire weaknesses stink for it and Hail nukes Leftovers on more things than Sand. It however is pretty good against rain (non-physical users anyways) with special defense and ice weather although it isn't ohkoing Kingdra and if it's carrying Hp Fire/Fighting, Signal Beam, or is a Dragon Dancer, Abomasnow is going to die. Risks switching in on Kabutops and Abomasnow needs Scarf to outspeed. Ludicolo has good enough special defense as well to survive Blizzard and Grass moves and can potentially be physical or one shots the Scarf variant with Focus Blast.
I am curious though, how are people switching in Tyranitar and Hippowdon in on Rain? After it kills something? Because otherwise, there is no way they are ever going to manage to come in safely seeing as they carry a weakness to everything on a rain team. How do the top Sandteams win? It seems more that Sand used by the better player is the only way it does beat Rain although if skill levels are equal, I can't really see how Sand could have the advantage.
Weather moves on something...could go both ways. If you pull a surprise weather switch back, those 5 turns could be enough because by then, their counters are probably weakened enough to pull it back and it probably isn't as much of a surprise anymore to see Tentacruel or Burungeru running Hail and if they see someone carrying it, would try to kill it quickly and keep their user ready.
Rain has many good users although definitely Kingdra/Kabutops/Ludicolo/Manaphy are among the best. However Shell Break Gorebyss and Omastar smack hard if it pulls off, Qwilfish can be surprisingly deadly, Floatzel can be threatening in Rain (THE FASTEST Natural Weather doubler) and can Bulk Up pass and attack (survives Power Whip from minimum Attack Nattorei after Bulk up and can 2 hit ko with Brick Break), smack Nattorei hard with Focus Punch (not usual but it could be an entertaining surprise on the switch in because after that, Nattorei is f-ed and actually could ohko with Adamant Life Orb on the switch in), hits Burungeru with Crunch...Huntail provides physical as does Swift Swim Poliwrath (one of the anti-Sand pokemon) once it gets Swift Swim if it doesn't yet (and imagine the horror of Swift Swim Belly Drum if you don't have something faster or Ditto).
Toxicroak can not take Kabutops. After Swords Dance, Stone Edge can ohko.
It would be FAR MORE DIVERSE if all AUTO-WEATHER WAS GONE. Sand, Rain, Hail, Sun...before you say that it kills strategies and useable pokes, that is false. It would actually allow a legitimate weather strategy that isn't so horribly overpoweringly broken, would not see as many repetitive teams, would actually allow numerous pokes that got pushed aside that became useless with double speeded pokes everywhere, would encourage weather as Game Freak had originally intended before making auto (with actual moves and items). Weather would actually have a fair chance since auto-weather wouldn't ruin it and there are MANY set up users of it and you could still have weather wars if so desired with actual moves.
Regardless of whether one opinions weather to be broken or not (and rain almost certainly is in permanent as would Sun once rain is gone) there is no denying that if auto-weather didn't exist at all, there would be far more useable pokemon than there is in a weather metagame. Kingdra, Kabutops, etc are not broken (although Manaphy still could be since it can set up it's own Rain Dance and won't die and once Water absorbers are gone...) without permanent rain. They don't deserve to be banned when it is the permanent weather's fault that made them so ridiculously overpowering.
There is a major problem with this type of thinking.
Basically, everyone knows that in a metagame without perma-sandstorm, Dory and Randorosu wouldn't be considered suspects (at least, not to the extent they are now.) But you don't say that you should remove perma-sandstorm in order to balance the two.
If Kindgra and co. are broken in perma-rain, that's too bad. If a new type of metagame emerges, and some previously non-broken pokemon become broken, we don't change the metagame back to how it was before. Broken pokemon are broken, regardless of how they did in some environment that's irrelevant to what we have now.
Furthermore, you say "deserve to be banned" and "made them so OP". This, frankly, is just targeting the newcomer. It doesn't matter if the pokemon or the metagame changed. If the pokemon we have now is banned in our current metagame, it's banned. They doesn't "deserve" to be saved just because they were ok before. The weather didn't "make them OP" just because it was the most recent addition.
There is no "deserve" or "made OP". A pokemon that is broken in its metagame is banned. We don't create a 4.5 gen just so our 4th gen BLs don't jump to Uber. What happened in 4th gen is nothing. The only thing that matters is the current pokemon, in the current metagame.
Well the problem with Nattorei is he can only cripple 1 or 2 rain sweepers max. Both Kabutops and Ludicolo hit hard with Low Kick and Focus Blast respectively and Manaphy is immune to T-wave. Also Magnezone removes Nattorei out of the equation. I disagree entirely with the writing in bold because its simply not true. You cannot defeat a well made rain team without changing the weather. EX: Lets say I make a team consisting of
Garchomp / Breloom / Nattorei / Rotom-W / Rankurusu / Terakion. *Note: This isn't my team btw
This team has absolutely NO chance against a good rain team. It is simply impossible (even despite me having Nattorei) this team just can't compete with rains raw speed and power. I mean whats my first initially switch into rain... Nattorei? Well if the have Magnezone it's gg I get swept. Now consider the same team with with Tyranitar over Breloom. That team stands a realistic chance of beating a rain team simply because you can switch up the weather.
Now if I want to make another team, I need to run Tyranitar, Nattorei and another Water resist. This isn't normal, nor is it fun in the slightest. Why should players be forced to use 3 pokemon to deal with rain? Thats why rain sucks.
*Why not post your team? I will outline exactly why you don't have problem with rain teams.
To be honest, I think most (80% at least) of the notable players want Drizzle banned. Ala man... I don't hate you personally but what said in the bolded just irks. You don't want to compromise or at least consider the opinion of others? Inconsistent was banworthy for over 90% of the suspect voters.
By all means, post a team here that lacks weather and can beat rain, and I will quickly shoot you down. Its impossible to beat a good rain team without changing weather.
Weather being a big part of the metagame is terrible though. It doesn't matter how long you test it, rain teams are still broken. They aren't glamorous, cool or even interesting like I initially thought. Its boring, dull and its the cancer that is killing gen 5. This heavy weather dominated metagame is horrible, and frankly I (and several others) will to it that gen 5 metagame is eventually fixed.
Fair enough
... It is impossible to beat a weather team without changing the weather. I seriously think this, and there is nothing you can do or say to change my opinion on this.
This isn't how we do things in Smogon. You don't vote based on your personal experiences alone, you vote with your experiences AND the experiences of others. You share experiences together, and thats how you ultimately come to a conclusion whether something is broken or balanced. You can vote entirely based on your own opinions, but oftentimes its useful to discuss your position towards suspect. Now I know you did this with Inconsistent, but I found you weren't vocal enough with your claim. If it was really balanced, give us an explanation why? Don't just lurk on IRC and claim "well I didn't find Inconsistent broken..." explain WHY you felt this way. Honestly you shot yourself in the foot by voting Inconsistent into OU. Also dude... 99%.
As a suspect voter, its your job to make metagame more balanced & enjoyable. Not just for you, but for everyone else. And the only way to do that job is to make sure
Insults don't help any argument guys.
Also, i like your argument fluffy otters. A few points I'd like to address are:
(when i say rain i mean Drizzle OR Swift swim, they are replaceable in this conversation)
1) What if once you remove rain the other weather doesn't cause issues so much? Its merely speculation to say we should ban everything because it will all just replace... but there are different counters to ground and sun that might make those not broken in a rain free meta... we just can't tell about them at all right now.
2) just Rain leaving will also make a more diverse metagame, how diverse is hard to predict.
3) Ttar actually tends to come in after you force an attack that isn't water. It commonly has sdef EVs in this meta, and can 1v1 politoed if to doesn't get burned... though it will often use pursuit to kill other weather inducers when they try to save them. I agree that it is hard, but it is also reliably happening ^^
Also, i like your argument fluffy otters. A few points I'd like to address are:
(when i say rain i mean Drizzle OR Swift swim, they are replaceable in this conversation)
1) What if once you remove rain the other weather doesn't cause issues so much? Its merely speculation to say we should ban everything because it will all just replace... but there are different counters to ground and sun that might make those not broken in a rain free meta... we just can't tell about them at all right now.
2) just Rain leaving will also make a more diverse metagame, how diverse is hard to predict.
3) Ttar actually tends to come in after you force an attack that isn't water. It commonly has sdef EVs in this meta, and can 1v1 politoed if to doesn't get burned... though it will often use pursuit to kill other weather inducers when they try to save them. I agree that it is hard, but it is also reliably happening ^^
So you're saying they won't be broken in 8-turn Rain? Please explain how? Oh, wait you have before, and then I pointed out how your thinking is flawed, and you ignored that response. So please, let's go again. Stalling it out? With what? Has this whole thread not been about how hard it is to deal with these sweepers under rain? Nattorei can't stay in forever, neither can Blissey, or Tentacruel, or every other check that exists. So tell me, what stops rain cold for 8 turns.
Meanwhile, you still haven't pointed out what the fuck 4th gen has to with 5th gen.
Furthermore, Omastar becomes more frail than a god damn Caterpie after using Shell Smash, and by the way, because of Swift Swim, you'll almost certainly be using it before your opponent attacks. What are you honestly going to come in and set up on? Oh, right, not much.
There are things called circumstances, you know. Dory and Landlos really make sand broken, yet sand has many other uses outside of offense, and banning that weather would destroy all those playstyles. In the case of Rain, rain offense and to a lesser extent, stall, would still exist if Drizzle was banned, yet they would not be broken
What do you mean "explain why they wouldn't be broken in 8-turn rain"? They were around last gen! With only 8 turns, they can't switch around as much, r use SD as effectively, or use Specs moves. DUH! Think about it. If nothing has been taken away from 4th gen pokes, and rain is still 8 turns, why would they be broken now and not then? Think about it. Also, Omastar has 125 base Def. Switch in on a physical attacker without a SE hit. Boom. Set up
But, y'know, why even approach rain differently in the first place?
Rain offense and to a SAME extent, stall, would still exist if the OP rain abusers (read: Kingdra (and Manaphy, duh) and maybe Ludi/Kabutops, NOT ALL abusers) were banned. And we wouldn't even have to do anything different from a normal suspect testing.
Rain offense would NOT exist. You can't pick and choose broken pokes when there are so many rain abusers that could be used differently. Also, we approach rain differently because it's a different situation. Why would you NOT approach it differently if the situation warranted a certain approach?
That's kinda why the suspect testing system exists, so we don't have to "pick and choose" the broken pokes... and obviously, there are going to be some sweepers that aren't tested/nominated broken which can be on rain offense.
Not to mention, one reason we're using this UU suspect testing system is so we can test several suspects in parallel without problems, allowing for testing of the 3-4 problematic rain sweepers without any additional time requirements.
The problem is that so many pokes benefit from Drizzle, and it would be so much easier just to ban it outright and let 8-turn rain exist instead
Just like people feeling Shaymin-S, Darkrai and friends weren't overpowered enough in Ubers and were brought down...to be shot back out again. They were overpowered. There were people who wanted to try to keep Darkrai without Dark Void (weird concept and it probably would have still been eventually gone) to "save" it.
Yes, the weather did make Kingdra/Ludicolo/Kabutops ridiculously overpowered. Why else do you think almost everyone is suggesting ban them to Ubers and save Drizzle? They weren't (and wouldn't be now) nearly overpowered without the PERMANENT weather. It is kind of like people reasoning test Darkrai without Dark Void...in reverse since it isn't the "Darkrai" that is broken but Dark Void (Drizzle). And I still think rain teams would still be insanely strong with or without the big users unless you want to ban every Swift Swimmer (who aren't broken at all and only are because of permanent weather).
And we are making a lot of assumptions here. People say "but what if this is meant to be a weather game? Adapt and deal with it" (along those lines). Well, one could say "how do we know weather was meant to be one or is wanted to be one?". Weather does not have to be the metagame to be played in and it is a pseudo ubers really. How many people actually want to consistently play against only weather? If they did, everyone would also be playing ubers and it would probably be the "standard" metagame. It is weather...and anti-weather.
And you miss my point about suggesting all auto-weather should be gone since it is obvious that Kingdra and friends are not broken but merely good without it and it is the permanentness of it that made them broken. And it isn't returning to Gen 4 because Sand would be gone as well.
Personally, I would be all for just creating yet another seperate game, one for weather people and one for others and just let people choose which one to play by this point. It would be like OU, Pseudo-Ubers/OU, Ubers, and UU. I'd bet that if people did, a great majority would choose to play the non-weather games and those who want to play Ubers and Ubers-lite can do their own thing.
That doesn't solve the problem for those of us who don't like to play crap metagames that are meaningless, yet enjoy metas that are balanced and not run by paranoid freaks who assume every kind of one thing is equally bad. Just ban Drizzle, all it will do is un-break rain.
And that, unfortunately, is what I believe to be the problem with banning Drizzle.
Basically, people want to ban Drizzle just because it'd be easier to do so, and not because of consideration of how we're treating sand or the fact that banning the OP sweepers would allow rain stall to exist and rain offense to be a lot more than a decent gimmick.
Banning Drizzle is ultimately just trying to create a gen 4.5 because some pokemon weren't broken in gen 4, even if they are in gen 5. We can't ban factors in the metagame to balance the pokemon; we ban the pokemon if it's broken in the metagame.
Is 70/125 really that much different from 74/116 where one is "Boom. Set up" and the other is "meh", especially when the former has awesome resistances and usually invests, while the latter does not and usually doesn't (might be wrong on that one)?
And what kind of physical attacker doesn't have a Ground or Fighting attack?
Just curious.
It's really hard to make rain offense good but not great with Perma-rain. You will either ban too much or too little. Just ban drizzle, and rain can go back to how it was in 4th gen, with the added bonus of countering the stronger rain this gen
Um...in that case, it wouldn't be a meaningless crap metagame and standard is what people want it to be. If people (a lot of people) don't want rain and weather, create a new OU game without it. It would still have all the NU, UU, and OU pokemon, just won't allow the existence of permanent weather and using former weather inducers would just mean using their dream world/other abilities. Actually, it would probably allow more (a LOT more in comparison) pokemon than what is being run in an OU weather metagame.
Actually, I'd argue that permanent weather had in no way shape or form had ever intended to be balanced. Why else would it give so many advantages to so few types otherwise? Clearly they were meant to be an offensive hyper-weapon and defense. What balanced it out was the time limit but without it, there is none whatsoever except another weather. Kyogre/Groudon were broken even in level limit for weather and weather has pretty much only gotten better or been added to. The permanent weather is NOT balanced and never was intended for that, if one cares about that. Look at Sand and Rain who pretty much make up most of the OU metagame and Sun. What is there that ISN'T weather or running Tyranitar/Hippowdon at all? I don't particularly see how that is balanced.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3239959&postcount=1114 please read this post. I have outlined the real reason why people are looking to ban just drizzle, so you can stop speculating about it being gen 4.5. This is gen 5, but to exist it also has to come from gen 4, thus incorporating each... this certainly doesn't make it 4.5.
Please stop making accusations about people's reasoning without first stopping to understand their reasons. I personally am not sure what I agree with as far as all this goes (which is why I'm here)... all I know is I completely disagree with what you said.
I haven't been following this thread, so I don't know a lot about how the tests went, but can someone explain to be why genosect is uber now??
Because its stats are awesome, it's movepool is awesome, and its ability is awesome
Forgive me if i sound like a blubbering idiot.
If I read correctly in either this thread or another thread, Groudon and Kyogre were tested in OU at lv.1, then banned under the support clause. This happened because there were Sp.Atk/Atk/Spe modifiers that helped certain pokemon in the weather (Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, etc.). Hail and Sandstorm weren't considered broken because no pokemon had abilities that could abuse the weather (Not counting Weather-hax abilities).
This is 5th Gen now, and with the release of more pokemon getting weather abilities, and more abilities to abuse weather (Sand Throw, Sand Power), maybe now it's time for sandstorm to leave the scene along with Sun/Rain, there's just too many ways to abuse it. It gets worse when the pokemon that actually set the weather can actually do things (Used Scarftoad for sand countering and revenge killer, it's amazing).
This most likely has been talked about already. if so, just disregard my post.
If I read correctly in either this thread or another thread, Groudon and Kyogre were tested in OU at lv.1, then banned under the support clause. This happened because there were Sp.Atk/Atk/Spe modifiers that helped certain pokemon in the weather (Swift Swim, Chlorophyll, etc.). Hail and Sandstorm weren't considered broken because no pokemon had abilities that could abuse the weather (Not counting Weather-hax abilities).
This is 5th Gen now, and with the release of more pokemon getting weather abilities, and more abilities to abuse weather (Sand Throw, Sand Power), maybe now it's time for sandstorm to leave the scene along with Sun/Rain, there's just too many ways to abuse it. It gets worse when the pokemon that actually set the weather can actually do things (Used Scarftoad for sand countering and revenge killer, it's amazing).
This most likely has been talked about already. if so, just disregard my post.
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