np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[XienZo]

then, as has been mentioned, do what everyone did to wynaut and ban politeod, not just his ability. Fits under support clause, solves all the problems with the least bans.

It does, but there's one major drawback.

As I said, T-tar and Hippo would then be fair game to be banned too, because of Dory and Randorosu. And Ninetales, I suppose, if people are scared of Venasaur that much.

Regardless, the problem is that you lose at least a 1 playstyle (the stall version of that weather) when you do that. No rain stall without Poli, no sand stall without T-tar/Hippo. And I can't see the somewhat simpler ban justifying losing an entire playstyle per banned pokemon.

Edit:

Why ban 2 pokes when you only have to ban 1?, thats not fair game, its ridiculous.

Because either could be used to setup the potentially broken Dory, since they both have Sand Stream.

Edit2:

Oh, unless you mean inducers versus Dory. In that case, you have Randorosu as well, and more importantly, there's that double standard again. We can't just switch to an alternate banning system because rain might require a bit more testing than sand.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

This, IMO, would be preferable to banning Drizzle, but you have to note that banning T-tar and Hippo instead of Dory would be fair game as well.

Neither Sand or dory are broken, unnecessary.

eevn if dory was broken in sand, Why ban 2 pokes when you only have to ban 1?, thats not fair game, its ridiculous.

 

[SlimMan]

It does, but there's one major drawback.

As I said, T-tar and Hippo would then be fair game to be banned too, because of Dory and Randorosu. And Ninetales, I suppose, if people are scared of Venasaur that much.

Regardless, the problem is that you lose at least a 1 playstyle (the stall version of that weather) when you do that. No rain stall without Poli, no sand stall without T-tar/Hippo. And I can't see the somewhat simpler ban justifying losing an entire playstyle per banned pokemon.

If we the inducing ability for rain, we don't have to do so for all the other weathers. We could ban Drizzle, then hypothetically ban Randorosu and Dory instead of T-Tar/Hippo.
And PLEASE don't make me explain again why a playstyle dies no matter what we ban. I don't want to get into that.

Because either could be used to setup the potentially broken Dory, since they both have Sand Stream.

Or you could just ban Doryuuzu and be done.
Not that I think Doryuuzu is broken.

 

[DahliaSky]

It does, but there's one major drawback.

As I said, T-tar and Hippo would then be fair game to be banned too, because of Dory and Randorosu. And Ninetales, I suppose, if people are scared of Venasaur that much.

Regardless, the problem is that you lose at least a 1 playstyle (the stall version of that weather) when you do that. No rain stall without Poli, no sand stall without T-tar/Hippo. And I can't see the somewhat simpler ban justifying losing an entire playstyle per banned pokemon.

You don't lose the playstyles. They will stay around if you have them built well, as long as weather moves stay around.

also, sorry for adding my comment in late, but i'm all for looking into the ban of ttar/hippo after politoed and deciding if it's necessary. We have no idea what will be needed.... but we know the first step to take involves rain.

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Basically, the essence of my argument is Occam's Razor, that is, while banning Kingdra and co follows an existing system of suspect testing, the other two systems introduce unnecessary complications for little to negative benefits.

This is in addition to my previous arguments, such as that banning sweepers would also preserve all playstyles involved to a greater degree than the other two proposed bans would.

Here, the problem isn't that your idea won't work, because it likely will with enough tinkering.

The problem is that while you can make changes that work, I can make changes that work, other users can make changes that work, and we'd have 50 different possible ideas of what gen v metagame could be, all of which potentially work.

And this is why, IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong), Smogon's general policy is to go with the more conservative route; that is, the working metagame that requires the least bans, changes, etc. Otherwise, if we don't have that criteria, how are we going to choose among the hundreds of possible metagames that the smogon userbase could create if allowed to?

As Dahlia said, by your logic of making least unneccessary and "slippery slope" bans, you would have fallen under banning Drizzle as clearly it is not Kingdra and friends who are broken, nor Swift Swim, but the permanence of Rain that push them to be broken.

There is little tinkering and there is no set way my idea has to be set. It's just that there is a blanket AUTO-weather ban. That requires no interference at all unlike say banning Dark Void or banning moves abilities off random pokemon to make things like Arceus, Ho-Oh, Rayquaza, etc OU. And many people would be fine with that. The weather people can play their own weather game, the anti-weather people can play non-weather and you could compare how people feel for each metagame. Some might prefer the weather (Uber-Lite) metagame of OU and some (probably MANY) won't and want to make standard the non-weather. Standard is what the community feels like it should be and there is a huge difference between a weather oriented metagame, and an everything else metagame.

It is well known that Chlorophyll, Swift Swim, etc are not nearly so broken without permanent weather. So it's not them that are broken by the way.

If one wants a changing OU metagame, YOU CAN NOT HAVE PERMANENT WEATHER. Permanent weather causes a stagnant OU metagame. This isn't as big a problem in Ubers because they have such strong things that have more variety than OU pokes. But WEATHER CAUSES STAGNATION AND BOREDOM. If one truly wants an elastic potentially changing OU game, then you have to get rid of permanent weather, period.

You can play permanent weather in Ubers and Ubers-Lite as seperate tiers if one so desires which is why I decided I like just another metagame added since it is clear no one is going to agree on the Rain and is just divisive and by this point pointless. It would simplify the whole problem with a satisfactory result and would prevent bans on unnecessary things.

 

[XienZo]

You don't lose the playstyles. They will stay around if you have them built well, as long as weather moves stay around.

also, sorry for adding my comment in late, but i'm all for looking into the ban of ttar/hippo after politoed and deciding if it's necessary. We have no idea what will be needed.... but we know the first step to take involves rain.

Stall is based on you stalling out the opponent while taking advantage of your weather. No well-built team can change the fact that non-perma weather ends up putting a shorter timer on yourself (8-turn weather) than on your opponent, making it basically counterproductive to try to stall.

 

[smashlloyd20]

Firstly, Hippo and Tar would not be banned, only Sand Stream. They would be usable with their Dream World abilities.

Feel free to ignore the below line.
I am officially quitting this metagame. It's far too overcentralized and team matchups decide 70% of matches before they even start. In addition I am convinced the PO RNG wishes to kill me in the most painful way it can.
You were warned.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

Doryuzu is not broken even in Sand, i dont know about you guys situations with this poke in the past, but i have not found it a big deal as of yet (yes, in sand).

 

[XienZo]

Firstly, Hippo and Tar would not be banned, only Sand Stream. They would be usable with their Dream World abilities.

At least read the context of the argument first... I was attacking the proposal that the weather inducer instead of the weather ability being banned.

Doryuzu is not broken even in Sand, i dont know about you guys situations with this poke in the past, but i have not found it a big deal as of yet (yes, in sand).

That's another matter entirely, which is why I said they're "fair game", not "certainly banned". I personally agree with you, but there's certainly going to be SOME testing on it sooner or later, and when it comes, it's likely going to be testing Dory rather than T-tar/Hippo.

 

[SlimMan]

You don't lose the playstyles. They will stay around if you have them built well, as long as weather moves stay around.

also, sorry for adding my comment in late, but i'm all for looking into the ban of ttar/hippo after politoed and deciding if it's necessary. We have no idea what will be needed.... but we know the first step to take involves rain.

@ second paragraph
But why would we ban Hippo/T-Tar if only one or two pokemon are even in question? Dory and Landlos are the only two that have even been brought up as possibly broken. And quite frankly, I don't why Doryuuzu was brought up. It's so easily revenged that it isn't even funny. That's beside the point, though. I hardly think that it's necessary to ban both inducers when the problem is so isolated with Sand.

 

[smashlloyd20]

That's another matter entirely, which is why I said they're "fair game", not "certainly banned". I personally agree with you, but there's certainly going to be SOME testing on it sooner or later, and when it comes, it's likely going to be testing Dory rather than T-tar/Hippo.

My humble apologies.

And why not test Sand Stream?

 

[DahliaSky]

Doryuzu is not broken even in Sand, i dont know about you guys situations with this poke in the past, but i have not found it a big deal as of yet (yes, in sand).

Mach Punch > Doryuuzu. Especially on bulky pokes like roop or with tech like breloom.

I feel that we should remove rain before speculating on this anyway... but also agree that he just doesn't do much without support from a team to remove bulky threats.

he only uses one stab normally, and his steel typing really only adds weaknesses as far as normal dealing with ground goes... (only gets rid of ice/grass to normal damage, far less common than water, fire, ground, and fighting).

 

[XienZo]

@ second paragraph
But why would we ban Hippo/T-Tar if only one or two pokemon are even in question? Dory and Landlos are the only two that have even been brought up as possibly broken. And quite frankly, I don't why Doryuuzu was brought up. It's so easily revenged that it isn't even funny. That's beside the point, though. I hardly think that it's necessary to ban both inducers when the problem is so isolated with Sand.

At the moment, in rain, it's just 3 sweepers (Kingdra/Ludi/Kabutops) besides Manaphy that are in question, and Ludi/Kabutops aren't even that sure of candidates.

The numbers aren't really that different, just 1~2 more, and it won't really matter because
1, there are plenty of rain sweepers that can easily take those guys's places (without forcing every non-weather team to pack gimmick counters), and
2, the faster suspect testing system mitigates the time issue from testing the extra pokes.

My humble apologies.

And why not test Sand Stream?

That falls under the "ban ability X on pokemon Y to keep Y from going to Uber" slippery slope. Basically, the argument states that it'll open the way to take Uber pokemon and just restrict them so they can become OU.

Also, Sand stall, which is pretty major, dies.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Do we have any plans on testing shadow tag (if it hasn't already been tested)?? I really HATE the idea of having shadow tag shanderaa lurking in OU.

 

[DahliaSky]

@ second paragraph
But why would we ban Hippo/T-Tar if only one or two pokemon are even in question? Dory and Landlos are the only two that have even been brought up as possibly broken. And quite frankly, I don't why Doryuuzu was brought up. It's so easily revenged that it isn't even funny. That's beside the point, though. I hardly think that it's necessary to ban both inducers when the problem is so isolated with Sand.

I was only saying that we should look at them with the same scruitiny, not that they should be banned. I have no idea given whats currently around... but soon we'll be able to look at it and decide if you're right ^^ If you are, and your argument stands, its just a formality.

 

[smashlloyd20]

Fun fact: Dory can take a max attack Mach Punch from Roob.

 

[SlimMan]

At the moment, in rain, it's just 3 sweepers (Kingdra/Ludi/Kabutops) besides Manaphy that are in question, and Ludi/Kabutops aren't even that sure of candidates.

The numbers aren't really that different, just 1~2 more, and it won't really matter because
1, there are plenty of rain sweepers that can easily take those guys's places (without forcing every non-weather team to pack gimmick counters), and
2, the faster suspect testing system mitigates the time issue from testing the extra pokes.

@ 1,
That's my point. There's nothing to take their places with Sand. In this metagame, there aren't pokemon that could come and be another set of Sand sweepers.

@ 2,
Time has nothing to do with anything. If you recall a few months back, I pushed for not even having an initial banlist. I don't mind a metagame where all hell break loose.

Do we have any plans on testing shadow tag (if it hasn't already been tested)?? I really HATE the idea of having shadow tag shanderaa lurking in OU.

You won't have to because most current estimates are that it'll be a couple of years before it even gets released.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

Fun fact: Dory can take a max attack Mach Punch from Roob.

Iron Fist variants have a 92.31% chance to OHKO. If Rocks are up, it is guaranteed to OHKO even if Doryuuzu has a Balloon.

 

[DahliaSky]

Fun fact: Dory can take a max attack Mach Punch from Roob.

he also needs LO to 2hko a roob with defensive investment (quite common)

 

[Fluffy Otters]

The "you lose a playstyle!" to try to justify not banning Drizzle/Sandstream, etc is beginning to be ridiculous. I must pose the question: how many people who say that ACTUALLY use the Stall team style? If you don't, then you don't deserve to be asking that and what you're really doing is trying to loophole Drizzle into not being banned, either because you like playing a rain team, playing against a rain team, etc. And I'd like to point out, Auto-Sand kills out viable strategies and no one complains like Hail Stall and actual legitimate non-permanent weather set up, as do all auto-weathers. And you lose a playstyle either way if you ban Swift Swim to preserve Drizzle (for you almost non-existant Rain stall users). Banning the pokes is another option suggested but that is ridiculous since it is not they who are broken but are made broken by permanent weather.

There is some bias to preserve Sandstream and Drizzle here...I don't really know why...when they're beginning to get pretty broken. And I don't see why Sand Stall is so important to preserve either when it causes things to become questionable like Doryuzu and gives annoying Sand Veil to Garchomp and Sand Power to Landlos. And Garchomp and Landlos don't NEED Sandstorm either, it just gives a bonus. Sandstream might not be broken of itself, nor have many abusers, but it does potentially "kill" strategies and is clearly overcentralizing and dominant with rain.

So I find this reason to be somewhat hypocritical, allowing Sand to remain and trying to preserve Drizzle at any cost because it "kills strategies" if you remove them.

 

[SlimMan]

I was only saying that we should look at them with the same scruitiny, not that they should be banned. I have no idea given whats currently around... but soon we'll be able to look at it and decide if you're right ^^ If you are, and your argument stands, its just a formality.

Well, I suppose they should be looked at. But not with the same scrutiny as Drizzle. Unless they prove themselves to be just as broken. Which is possible (although I highly doubt it).
However, I am certain that I am right about Dory.

Example of it failing against priority:
CB Scizor 2HKOes with Bullet Punch
Adamant LO Dory doesn't KO with Earthquake, even after SR damage.
And it resists Bullet Punch. Imagine moves like Vacuum Wave, Aqua Jet, Mach Punch, etc

 

[Baldafor]

If you are forced to have a strong priority attack that can at least 2HKO Dory on your team or else you lose most of your games, that is overcentralization and warrants suspect testing.

 

[alexwolf]

My point about kingdra is clearly not null. Lots of kingdra carry HP Fighting, as there isn't need for much else, and the fact that Kingdra's STAB is nearly as powerful just goes to show Nattorei can't take on rain at all

what?so you use hp fighting to deal to nattorei and empoleon 5 more damage???and what is this irrelevant statement about nattorei in the end?who is telling that nattorei can take on rain alone???yes he can take kingdra alone but not all rain sweepers...and kingdra usually runs surf,dragon pulse,hydro pump and dracp meteor if it is special.draco meteor and hydro pump are for power and the other 2 for reliability...

 

[SlimMan]

If you are forced to have a strong priority attack that can at least 2HKO Dory on your team or else you lose most of your games, that is overcentralization and warrants suspect testing.

Almost any non-stall team has priority. Almost any stall team has something can deal with Dory. For instance, Vaporeon, a very common stall pokemon, is never 2HKOed by Adamant LO Earthquake as long as it runs Protect (which almost all Vaporeon do). It is never OHKOed by +2 Adamant Balloon Earthquake. There are plenty of other examples, I simply chose this one.

Back to non-stall, if your team has no priority, nothing that can take a hit from it, and nothing to change the weather in the first place, then Doryuuzu is the least of your worries. Pretty much all teams run at least one of those things.

 

[astrohawke]

Almost any non-stall team has priority. Almost any stall team has something can deal with Dory. For instance, Vaporeon, a very common stall pokemon, is never 2HKOed by Adamant LO Earthquake as long as it runs Protect (which almost all Vaporeon do). It is never OHKOed by +2 Adamant Balloon Earthquake. There are plenty of other examples, I simply chose this one.

Back to non-stall, if your team has no priority, nothing that can take a hit from it, and nothing to change the weather in the first place, then Doryuuzu is the least of your worries. Pretty much all teams run at least one of those things.

But anyone who uses Dory knows to save it until your counter is dead. Particularly for stall teams it's difficult because there are so many times where my gliscor or skarmory are either killed by crit stone edge from the likes of terrakion, landlos etc or so weakened after dealing with them that it isn't difficult for dory to come in and clean up. What makes it worse is that if it's a full HP balloon dory, it can still get past pokemon like gliscor/skarm if it gets a flinch on rock slide.