They were tested in suspect, not OU, and I don't believe Groudon was deemed broken.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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After taking a closer look at it's movepool, I understand why it's banned now.
On a separate note, who else has recently been banned to ubers (if anyone) and what were the reasons for the ban??
It has, but this point has been lost in translation to all of the people arguing about whether swift swim itself is broken, and getting angry at each other.
The only question is does the reason for the old ban remain true for the current time, and people seem to be ignoring that question in their arguments.
We banned Genosect because it's an unreleased event Pokemon.
I want it too. :<
I want it too. :<
So, we're banning things now before they've even been tested?? Although, based on its stats+movepool, it's becoming more clear to me that this thing truly is uber material.
kingdra almost never carries hp fighting and even if it does it does almost the same damage as a hydro pump in rain...resisted hydro pump does 135 damage(in rain) and super effective hp fighting does 140...so your point sbout kingdra is null!
My bad, suspect then.
I can see Groudon not being uber for support clause, I vaguely remember a Sun vs. Rain War i had with someone, determining which is easier to use (blah blah, irrelevant).
Well that sucks, but kinda is what makes a good testing. Shows points that are on the opposing side's minds that might be keeping them to their side of the argument...
Or it might be the urge to fight.
My point about kingdra is clearly not null. Lots of kingdra carry HP Fighting, as there isn't need for much else, and the fact that Kingdra's STAB is nearly as powerful just goes to show Nattorei can't take on rain at all
more the fighting part xD but if you want I outlined why people are saying what they are at http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3239959&postcount=1114 that post, if you want a quick synopsis.
No....it hasn't been released and is un-usable in standard play because of that if I understand correctly. We can't use something that can't be used on the cart in link battles I'm pretty sure.
I'd assume Smart special Kingdras would run HP Fighting to hit the pokemon who resists his STAB moves for 2x damage (HP Fire'd be redundant in rain, and not as effective on Empoleon). Otherwise yes, Hydro Pump would be better.
Yes, I'm aware of that post.
I still stand by my post that if we have gen 5, and we're trying to revert something back to gen 4, that is creating a gen 4.5. If you disagree, just say why you believe so, but at the moment, I still believe that the main reason people are suggesting banning Drizzle > banning Kingdra but banning Dory > banning Sandstream is because of the unneeded influence from gen 4.
Sorry if I came off like that, but I'm just asserting my hypothesis as why we're treating rain differently than sand, and that because of that hypothesis, banning Drizzle is ultimately faulty. I don't mean to accuse anyone, and if you want to disagree, just explain why my reasoning is wrong.
Ultimately, I just wanted to throw the idea out there and for someone on the pro-Drizzleban side to explain their side.
Deoxys A and Normal Form
Shaymin-S
Darkrai
Inconsistent
Deoxys-A was an INSANE hitter that was faster than most Choice Scarfers that only was hindered really by a 4 move slot and wrong prediction kills it, could easily 1-2 hit ko EVERYTHING. It always took down 1-2 pokes in general and maybe more. It is like a suicide bomber, losing it wasn't really much of a loss in general once it did it's job of taking multiple things out with its high speed and offensive stats although could be preserved for later and there wasn't much to take it on. The normal form went for much the same reasons despite being not used at all when it's stronger form was available but with 150/150/150 in attacking stats and speed would have been much the same.
Shaymin-S...was unanimously voted Uber. UNANIMOUSLY by all suspect testers. With really good attacking stats and speed+Serene Grace, it was an unholy nightmare of Flinch-Haxing and even it's somewhat checks/counters could be defeated with a combination of flinch haxxing and -2 SDef drops of Seed Flare. With 60% chance of flinching slower things and 80% of -2 SDef and little that could remotely switch in as well as the ability to abuse things like Subseed and Growth, it was going to go.
Darkrai went because it has access to Nasty Plot, Dark Void, and 135 base Special attack and 125 base speed and was surprisingly bulky as some found out. For a fragile poke, really hard to kill and it outspeeds almost everything that isn't a weather or scarfer. And after Nasty Plot, nothing could really take it out that wasn't priority and it takes really strong priority to kill it. It was only 2 hit koed by Scizor while a Nasty Plot Focus Blast could ohko back and Dark/Fighting hits almost everything.
Inconsistent...was EVIL. Possibly eviler than all the others, maybe even Shaymin-S (depends on who you ask) and was 96% voted gone and only 2 voted against it. It turned everything into a game of luck chance and had no consistent counter since with the right boost, any consistent user could have destroyed said "counter" and proceed to sweep a team. You could have things like Bidoof sweeping an UBER team with Inconsistent.
Once again, we're fixated on the idea of going back to 4th gen. Negating the stronger rain is only a bonus in terms of making the things back to the way they were; strong but not-broken playstyle is perfectly legitimate.
And again, suspect testing allows us to find the border between broken and good without having to blindly hypothesize where certain pokemon are too powerful.
Ya, i choose not to speculate on sandstorm yet, maybe thats the main issue there. I am not suggesting that we treat them differently (though some people are), I would say all other weather based bans need to be held off until after rain-boosting is gone. Look instead at the arguments for banning drizzle that have nothing to do with other weather... sand may completely change with rain boosting gone, and we have no idea which parts will be bad or good, or even what will happen.
Edit: also, the reason why people are talking about "like in gen four" is because that was a stable metagame to compare it to. If rain was stable in that meta, it is one example of why abilities like swift swim might not be broken by itself... (also not the only reasons being given)
Yes, shaymin-s, darkrai, and deoxys were DEFINITELY broken in OU. If unaware ignored speed boosts, inconsistent octillery wouldn't be as broken as it is now thanks to unaware clefable. Regardless, I also agree with the inconsistent ban.
Anyways, on a separate note, are we considering banning wobbuffet and shadow tag?? I'd really like to see them get sent to ubers as well, for obvious reasons.
Anyways, on a separate note, are we considering banning wobbuffet and shadow tag?? I'd really like to see them get sent to ubers as well, for obvious reasons.
Umm...I think many HAVE explained why they're against Drizzle...pages and pages of arguments going back and forth going for and against it. And I did propose a metagame of ALL AUTO-WEATHER being not allowed. Not just rain or sun or sand which therefore is not biased. Doryuzu is almost nothing without Sand unlike Landlos/Garchomp/Tyranitar/Gliscor. It'd be like one of those rinky-dinky kink usages like Kabutops or Kingdra without a permanent sandstream. But anyways.
Without weather, it would be a COMPLETELY different metagame, one probably more fun to play. Won't really know until it happens but by this point for some people, anything would be better than facing another weather team. You'd actually be able to use, oh I don't know, more fun pokemon and pokemon that are good but are pushed aside and made irrelevant by weather.
And I don't see an issue there. Clearly Rain (and weather but mostly rain in this case) is a dividing issue. How about 1 OU Metagame with Weather (aka the Uber-Lite) and 1 OU Metagame without weather and compare to see which people prefer and like more? Because let's face it, it is an Uber-lite tier right now with weather. Other than quirk niches (mainly for being able to somewhat deal with weather), the only things that are being run are weather pokes, anti-weather pokes, and things that change weather. And you see the same pokes EVERYWHERE. If it isn't a weather sweeper, then it is a Tyranitar, Nattorei, Landlos, etc.
Ok, I was gonna respond to what you said last time, but this post and the previous one about Genosect has told me everything I need to know. You clearly don't know what you're talking about and really don't deserve to be responded to in this thread.
Very well, and that's a valid point.
However, I also wish to bring up the fact that we already have a set, working precedent on how to ban specific pokemon in order to balance the playstyle. Unlike Drizzle/Swift Swim bans, there is essentially no risk of a "slippery slope" because banning sweepers like Kingdra has been done before successfully, while the other two suffer from the fact that we've never implemented such a ban (besides the near-unanimous Inconsistent ban), and we have no clue if such a thing can work without causing a slippery slope.
Basically, the essence of my argument is Occam's Razor, that is, while banning Kingdra and co follows an existing system of suspect testing, the other two systems introduce unnecessary complications for little to negative benefits.
This is in addition to my previous arguments, such as that banning sweepers would also preserve all playstyles involved to a greater degree than the other two proposed bans would.
In the context though, it was used as in, "why not make it like this since it worked in gen IV?". That, as far as I can tell (correct me if I'm wrong), just means people want to return to the stability of gen IV instead of finding a NEW stable metagame of gen V.
Gen IV may have been stable, but I HIGHLY doubt we would have to shape aspects of gen V metagame after the Gen IV one in order to attain that same stability.
Here, the problem isn't that your idea won't work, because it likely will with enough tinkering.
The problem is that while you can make changes that work, I can make changes that work, other users can make changes that work, and we'd have 50 different possible ideas of what gen v metagame could be, all of which potentially work.
And this is why, IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong), Smogon's general policy is to go with the more conservative route; that is, the working metagame that requires the least bans, changes, etc. Otherwise, if we don't have that criteria, how are we going to choose among the hundreds of possible metagames that the smogon userbase could create if allowed to?
I want rain to go back to 4th gen because it wasn't broken then, not out of some misguided nostalgia. I use 4th gen as a point of reference for what rain will be like post-ban, not as a selling point
I like your argument ^^ no more gen 4.5 and we just might be friends :3
One thing to remember, there is a Support Clause ban that has also been successfully used in the past without this effect.
We do have to make sure we don't create a slippery slope, and it's certainly a hard line... one that just banning swift swim or rain abusers would really would have to tightrope walk, while banning drizzle has no threat to see other pokemon go just because of that ban. I follow what you say, except for how it only doesn't apply to banning rain abusers.
Each has a large number of complications, most of which are not avoided by any of the other methods, and each has unique problems that the other ways can avoid.
simplest fix with the least complications is to Support Ban drizzle. Not saying this is what i want 100%, but by your own logic it bans the least other pokemon, and removes all of the threats associated with this conversation as far as we can tell from observation.
are you high???i was talking about the moveset that we have been discussing for all this time....specially defensive empoleon!!!was specially defensive emploleon an old standart???no...
i will discuss your other points later 'cause i am going to university now...but this was just too crazy to pass up...
Then Ban politoed under the support clause. Banning 1 poke is better than banning 4 or 3, and then nothing will be broken with rain.
Mmm, yes, but that applies to Pokemon. The main difference I was referring to was abilities vs pokemon.
Basically, the slippery slope focuses on how the first two are unprecedented ability bans, while the latter is a pokemon ban. Once abilities (Inconsistent is discounted here because of the lack of serious controversy over it) became bannable, why not ban ability X on pokemon Y? (Shadow Tag on Wobba, for example)
And the reason is because we're restricting pokemon to keep them balanced instead of banning them, and such a restriction goes against smogon policy. (I'm not going to type out the whole reason for THAT right here, but you could probably find the argument in the previous ban discussion thread)
Now, I believe that with the abuser ban, you're talking about the possibility that we ban too much. But THAT precisely, is why suspect testing is made, so we can make a decision without the excessive subjectivity that's present when a much smaller group makes the decision.
Because of this, the worry of banning-too-much isn't all that major, since our system basically takes care of that.
It's the, "let's keep pokemon X from going Uber by removing ability Y" slippery slope that poses the threat.
This, IMO, would be preferable to banning Drizzle, but you have to note that banning T-tar and Hippo instead of Dory would be fair game as well.
then, as has been mentioned, do what everyone did to wynaut and ban politeod, not just his ability. Fits under support clause, solves all the problems with the least bans.
I also say yes to subjecting all weather inducers to the same question... once rain is out of the way.
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