np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[Arc Tech]

I'm quite sure nobody would use Iron Head (or scarf Jirachi for that matter) if it didn't flinch. Bad base power and terrible coverage. Obviously the damage is required so that you can actually do something while flinching them (flinching without damage would be awful lol), but a flinch-less version of Iron Head would never be used.

Yeah, that part is pretty weak. But the passive versus active thing makes a huge difference. And if iron head just had a 60% chance of flinch with no damage, would be used? Hell, if it had a 100% chance of flinch with no damage, it would be exceedingly rare, if used at all. However, if an ability called iron skull came out that caused the opponent to have a 60%, hell even 30%, chance to flinch regardless of what you do, would it be broken? Yep. And that is nearly what the evasion abilities are.

Also, to the person who said they're banned because you can keep boosting up and thats why DT is banned, statistics show that DT gives the most reward when used once. The evasion abilities are basically that without having to waste a turn or moveslot. I don't have the exact math, it's in the old evasion thread.

 

[petrie911]

Several big differences: that 40% thing is active (you have to keep iron heading/air slashing), as opposed to the passivity of evasion boosts (which is a large part of the reason inconsistent was banned, it was passive as opposed to acupressure, which is an active version of it), Iron head deals damage and therefore has another purpose which is its main purpose, wear the opponent down (like flamethrower's main purpose is damage, not burning). And finally, you also have to be faster.

Yeah, well, Sand Veil also requires you to keep the sand up. And it's only a 20% chance to miss, not that absurd 60% flinch. Not to mention Scarf Jirachi is faster than damn near everything anyways.

Also, I nominated those items for creating luck with no other purpose than creating luck. And before people start saying scope lens/razor claw, those items only modify existing luck, it does not create new luck (a new dice roll).

Fire Blast's sole purpose is to create luck. None of its effects are guaranteed to happen. Obviously it should be banned.

Nearly everything in the game is based on luck. Accept it. Accept that sometimes, you will lose due to luck. It happens to everyone. Get over it and play the damn game.

BTW, I was the one who showed DT's diminishing returns. But what I also showed was that 1 was not the optimal number of times to use DT. The optimal number of times was 0--DT is a waste of a turn. But, of course, it was banned anyways, because people around here would rather ban things they don't like than actually try to play against them.

Also, on a different subject, why is it that people are fine with banning Randorosu and Doryuuzu instead of banning Sand Stream, but aren't fine with doing the analogous ban of Kingdra and Manaphy instead of banning Drizzle? I'm kind of hoping the answer isn't "because no one on Smogon can stand the idea of change"...

 

[Acritter]

Yeah, that part is pretty weak. But the passive versus active thing makes a huge difference. And if iron head just had a 60% chance of flinch with no damage, would be used? Hell, if it had a 100% chance of flinch with no damage, it would be exceedingly rare, if used at all. However, if an ability called iron skull came out that caused the opponent to have a 60%, hell even 30%, chance to flinch regardless of what you do, would it be broken? Yep. And that is nearly what the evasion abilities are.

Also, to the person who said they're banned because you can keep boosting up and thats why DT is banned, statistics show that DT gives the most reward when used once. The evasion abilities are basically that without having to waste a turn or moveslot. I don't have the exact math, it's in the old evasion thread.

Wait, wait, wait. That's not a good comparison. You're comparing a 30-60% chance to flinch to a 20% chance to miss. And the chance to flinch would be obviously better, because it affects ANY move, not just attacks. Completely besides the point is the fact that Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are NOT broken, as evidenced by all Gliscors nowadays being Poison Heal over Sand Veil. The only way you're going to convince me that the problem is with Sand Veil is if you first ban Poison Heal. And don't tell me "oh, that's just a Pokemon by Pokemon scenario," because what you're doing with Sand Veil/Snow Cloak is saying that it's a broken ability on ANY Pokemon.

Point stands that the only Pokemon affected in the slightest by Sand Veil is Garchomp. If you have a problem with Garchomp, then ban it. Don't ban Sand Veil AND Snow Cloak to deal with Garchomp.

BTW, I was the one who showed DT's diminishing returns. But what I also showed was that 1 was not the optimal number of times to use DT. The optimal number of times was 0--DT is a waste of a turn. But, of course, it was banned anyways, because people around here would rather ban things they don't like than actually try to play against them.

I support the DT ban, because DT offers very little and makes the game simply not fun to play. Do you know how FRUSTRATING it is to miss again and again and again? It's pretty fucking frustrating. If both Pokemon DT up, then the game turns from fast-paced competitive Pokemon into "let's attack each other for 30 turns and see who hits first." It gets even worse if they have Leftovers and can't OHKO each other. Can you say 3rd Gen Wobbo Wars?

 

[Arc Tech]

Wait, wait, wait. That's not a good comparison. You're comparing a 30-60% chance to flinch to a 20% chance to miss. And the chance to flinch would be obviously better, because it affects ANY move, not just attacks. Completely besides the point is the fact that Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are NOT broken, as evidenced by all Gliscors nowadays being Poison Heal over Sand Veil. The only way you're going to convince me that the problem is with Sand Veil is if you first ban Poison Heal. And don't tell me "oh, that's just a Pokemon by Pokemon scenario," because what you're doing with Sand Veil/Snow Cloak is saying that it's a broken ability on ANY Pokemon.

Point stands that the only Pokemon affected in the slightest by Sand Veil is Garchomp. If you have a problem with Garchomp, then ban it. Don't ban Sand Veil AND Snow Cloak to deal with Garchomp.



I support the DT ban, because DT offers very little and makes the game simply not fun to play. Do you know how FRUSTRATING it is to miss again and again and again? It's pretty fucking frustrating. If both Pokemon DT up, then the game turns from fast-paced competitive Pokemon into "let's attack each other for 30 turns and see who hits first." It gets even worse if they have Leftovers and can't OHKO each other. Can you say 3rd Gen Wobbo Wars?

Sand veil/Snow cloak offers no more than DT, and introduces the same luck factors as it does. As shown by statistics, you reap the most benefit only DTing once. Sand veil and Snow cloak are actually superior to DT statistically, due to not wasting a turn and saving a moveslot. And the reason DT is banned (and why sand veil/snow cloak should be) is introducing far too much luck with no other purpose whatsoever, not that it is broken per se.

And yeah, 20% is not as good as 30% -60%, but it's still pretty good. And unlike flinch, you don't need to be faster.

 

[petrie911]

I support the DT ban, because DT offers very little and makes the game simply not fun to play. Do you know how FRUSTRATING it is to miss again and again and again? It's pretty fucking frustrating. If both Pokemon DT up, then the game turns from fast-paced competitive Pokemon into "let's attack each other for 30 turns and see who hits first." It gets even worse if they have Leftovers and can't OHKO each other. Can you say 3rd Gen Wobbo Wars?

How frustrating is it to be flinched by Jirachi? How frustrating is it to hit yourself in confusion after a DynamicPunch? How frustrating is it to miss with Focus Blast? How frustrating is it to be fully paralyzed?

We do not ban things because of frustration. We ban them when they are broken. If, with evasion allowed, every team revolved around setting up DT, then it would warrant a ban. But we never had the chance to find out, and because Smogon seems to be full of scrubs, we probably never will.

BTW, Wobb vs Wobb was only infinite because of the old struggle mechanics. Struggle now cannot miss and deals 25% of the user's health in recoil. DT vs DT is a non-issue, as one side will run out of PP and die.

 

[Arc Tech]

And we're not actually doing anything about the threat of a real infinite battle with the introduction of harvest. I suggested banning leppa berry, since its not really used for anything else. Now back on topic of evasion.

We also ban things when they create undo amounts of luck, and take control out of the hands of the players and makes skill nonexistent. Using less than 100% accurate moves, such as focus blast, is a choice made by the player using it- it shouldn't be interfered with by abilities in my opinion. True, it sucks that there aren't fully accurate alternatives for some moves- yet anyway. I support banning dynamic punch since it has alternatives that are identical and often superior outside of the confusion. Paralysis has a use outside of the 25% luck roll, cutting your speed to 1/4.

I'm not trying to remove luck from the game entirely, i.e. suggesting we remove burn from flamethrower, etc., I'm just saying we should remove things that have no purpose whatsoever other than introducing new dice rolls.

 

[Benlisted]

Just to let you know, it currently looks like Harvest only has a 66% chance or so of regenerating its berry outside of Sunlight on the same turn it was used, so it would only ever possibly be infinite in Sun and even then that introduces a huge range of weather based counters for it to add to the existing things like Knock Off.

 

[Arc Tech]

I know. but the max (found sofar anyway) is 4 turns, which is less than half of what leppa provides, so it's still an infinite battle if it comes to leppaharvest vs leppaharvest.

And while knock off etc exists, I didn't say it was broken (or even good), I said it had the potential to create infinite length battles, like wobbuffet in Gen III.

 

[petrie911]

]We also ban things when they create undo amounts of luck, and take control out of the hands of the players and makes skill nonexistent.

Control is not taken out of the hands of the players. One player had to choose to use evasion moves, and the other player has several options to choose from to counter them. And I'm not just talking about Swift accurate moves and such. Even a simple Phaze will stop DT setups, as it takes just a single hit to undo every evasion boost, and the odds of missing every time are quite steep.

Evasion also does not create undue amounts of luck. I demonstrated quite thoroughly that DT does not recoup the cost of the turn it takes to use, much less the cost of the moveslot it takes up. In exchange for that 1/4 chance of not taking damage, you've given your counter a free switch in. Not a great tradeoff at all.

As for evasion abilities, they give less evasion than a single use of DT, they require a particular weather condition to be in effect which may not necessarily fit with your team, and they require you to not use your Pokemon's other ability.

 

[ensoriki]

lol infinite battles, one of the players will die from lack of sleep or time out.
Leave harvest alone.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

Wait, wait, wait. That's not a good comparison. You're comparing a 30-60% chance to flinch to a 20% chance to miss. And the chance to flinch would be obviously better, because it affects ANY move, not just attacks. Completely besides the point is the fact that Sand Veil and Snow Cloak are NOT broken, as evidenced by all Gliscors nowadays being Poison Heal over Sand Veil. The only way you're going to convince me that the problem is with Sand Veil is if you first ban Poison Heal. And don't tell me "oh, that's just a Pokemon by Pokemon scenario," because what you're doing with Sand Veil/Snow Cloak is saying that it's a broken ability on ANY Pokemon.

Point stands that the only Pokemon affected in the slightest by Sand Veil is Garchomp. If you have a problem with Garchomp, then ban it. Don't ban Sand Veil AND Snow Cloak to deal with Garchomp.

Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with this. As if Beartic, Froslass, Cacturne (yeah, it's annoying but not broken), Articuno, and STUNFISK are broken with it.

And the Drizzle+Swift Swim ban is just ridiculous. Just ban Drizzle if you hate that combo so much! And don't go saying that rain will die out. It won't, especially if Excadrill and Landorus, or Sand Stream are banned. Even if it's not eternal, just put a Tornadus or Electrode on your team! Either one of the two is better than Politoed when it comes to doing something other than put up rain.

And now I'm hearing about banning Magic Guard. Yeah, as if Clefable, Sigilyph, and Alakazam are broken with it, and I've yet to hear why exactly Reuniclus is.

 

[astrohawke]

And we're not actually doing anything about the threat of a real infinite battle with the introduction of harvest. I suggested banning leppa berry, since its not really used for anything else. Now back on topic of evasion.

We also ban things when they create undo amounts of luck, and take control out of the hands of the players and makes skill nonexistent. Using less than 100% accurate moves, such as focus blast, is a choice made by the player using it- it shouldn't be interfered with by abilities in my opinion. True, it sucks that there aren't fully accurate alternatives for some moves- yet anyway. I support banning dynamic punch since it has alternatives that are identical and often superior outside of the confusion. Paralysis has a use outside of the 25% luck roll, cutting your speed to 1/4.

I'm not trying to remove luck from the game entirely, i.e. suggesting we remove burn from flamethrower, etc., I'm just saying we should remove things that have no purpose whatsoever other than introducing new dice rolls.

So...first you say iron head serves another purpose other than flinch hax by doing damage and shouldn't be banned. Then you say you support banning dynamicpunch because it causes confusion hax even though it too has the purpose of inflicting damage.

It just shows that people ban what they feel like banning rather than ban what's actually broken.

I really couldn't care less about DT because it's so bad that no one would use it even if it wasn't banned but the double standards really piss me off. And whenever you point out the double standards by showing a comparison to something similar that hasn't been banned, they give some excuse about how it's not exactly the same.

 

[B-Lulz]

Control is not taken out of the hands of the players. One player had to choose to use evasion moves, and the other player has several options to choose from to counter them. And I'm not just talking about Swift accurate moves and such. Even a simple Phaze will stop DT setups, as it takes just a single hit to undo every evasion boost, and the odds of missing every time are quite steep.

Evasion also does not create undue amounts of luck. I demonstrated quite thoroughly that DT does not recoup the cost of the turn it takes to use, much less the cost of the moveslot it takes up. In exchange for that 1/4 chance of not taking damage, you've given your counter a free switch in. Not a great tradeoff at all.

As for evasion abilities, they give less evasion than a single use of DT, they require a particular weather condition to be in effect which may not necessarily fit with your team, and they require you to not use your Pokemon's other ability.

Not that I am against your proposal to unban Evasion entirely, but just a nitpick Roar/Whirwind/Dragon Tail etc all can miss. I totally agree with you on the Sand Veil issue but i'd be intigued to know exactly why you want Evasion and OHKO moves unbanned?

 

[petrie911]

I'm aware they can miss, but the point is that in order to set up evasion boosts, your opponent will require them to miss many times in a row, and the odds of that happening are quite low, hovering around the level of critical hits. If the phazer switches in on DT, the probability of reaching +6 is 1/21. And even at +6, the phazer has a 1/3 chance of success on every subsequent try. If the DTer sticks at +1, the probability that it takes more than 2 shots to phaze is 1/16, and 3 shots is 1/64.

I also did an analysis of what happens when a counter switches in and simply tries to KO you outright. You can see it here http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3100363&postcount=518. It reveals the rather interesting conclusion that using Supersonic on the switch-in is more likely to be helpful than Double Team.

Anyways, the reason I want them unbanned is because they aren't broken. Banning something that isn't broken is inimical to any competitive game. We must take the game we are given at face value, and only when something so warps the game around itself that it becomes the only viable strategy should that element be banned. We never even tried evasion and OHKOs in 4th gen. How can we possibly say with any confidence that they will dominate the 5th gen metagame?

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

And now I'm hearing about banning Magic Guard. Yeah, as if Clefable, Sigilyph, and Alakazam are broken with it, and I've yet to hear why exactly Reuniclus is.

Reuniclus supposedly makes stall "unviable".
Still,if Reuniclus should be banned,we should go ahead and ban Shinpora/Sigilyph since it can make itself even bulkier and can hit quite hard with Assist Power.
If your stall team cannot handle Reuniclus,then it can't handle any other Magic Guard mon and therefore,it sucks.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Against stall Reuniclus is better but Id argue that Shipora is much more dangerous against offense. With Cosmic Power you literally can't OHKO it barring crits.

 

[Nanoswine]

Reuniclus supposedly makes stall "unviable".
Still,if Reuniclus should be banned,we should go ahead and ban Shinpora/Sigilyph since it can make itself even bulkier and can hit quite hard with Assist Power.
If your stall team cannot handle Reuniclus,then it can't handle any other Magic Guard mon and therefore,it sucks.

Magic Guard isn't the problem, Rankurusu is as a whole. Rankurusu poses far to big a threat to dedicated stall teams to be dealt with consistently, because it's bulk + Recover makes it impossible for stall to wear it down through direct damage when coming off of generally weak walls, and Magic Guard makes it impossible to wear down through indirect damage. Other Magic Guard users don't pose this same threat, because they really don't have the bulk to take repeated attacks even when coming from weaker offensive stats, and lack good enough offensive stats to break stall (outside of Alakazam, who dies to a stiff breeze)

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Against stall Reuniclus is better but Id argue that Shipora is much more dangerous against offense. With Cosmic Power you literally can't OHKO it barring crits.

Using stall,you can't do jack to Shinpora(Well,if you supposedly can't do anything to Reuniclus,why should Shinpora be different?),especially since the people who argue about Reuniclus being broken and makes stall "unviable" is because he's too hard to OHKO.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Magic Guard isn't the problem, Rankurusu is as a whole. Rankurusu poses far to big a threat to dedicated stall teams to be dealt with consistently, because it's bulk + Recover makes it impossible for stall to wear it down through direct damage when coming off of generally weak walls, and Magic Guard makes it impossible to wear down through indirect damage. Other Magic Guard users don't pose this same threat, because they really don't have the bulk to take repeated attacks even when coming from weaker offensive stats, and lack good enough offensive stats to break stall (outside of Alakazam, who dies to a stiff breeze)

So all stall teams are 6 walls with 1 attack?
You should,in some way,be able to wear him down,and if you downright REFUSE to use an attacking mon,you can go the gimmicky way and use Worry Seed,forcing him to switch.
He'll pretty much be the last mon to die.

Last I checked, Electric/Water/Grass are fairly common and being able to stomp on most water and grass pokes is awesome. I say those are fairly important to resist as well. And that is a difference of 2% and most Scizors I think carry Choice Band/Life Orb (well, I guess some could carry Leftovers) and neither one usually (unless Kyurem has to or is behind Reflect) is going to stay in and risk Scizor Bullet Punch anyways. Both Tyranitar and Kyurem can 2 hit ko Scizor (or 1 hit ko from Tyranitar Fire Punch or fire move or if Kyurem carries Hp Fire) and most Tyranitars are bulkier than 341 hp anyways I think. Poison resist (except against Venasaur or Roserade who'd be carrying Giga Drain/Power Whip/Leaf Storm also) is not exactly exciting nor is Flying (except in Ubers against Ho-Oh, the only time you'd see Flying in OU is from Staraptor and Braviary who'd have Close Combat/Super Power). Normal is fairly rare so that also is fairly negligible. So Tyranitar has about 4 useful common resists/immunity to OU things and Kyurem has 3.

Tyranitar also can not throw out Stabbed Draco Meteors off of 130 base special attack, just saying. Tyranitar is a phenomenal Pokemon. But Kyurem is severely underrated and far, far bulkier than people give credit for. Having the same special attack as Latios but far better surviveability at a tolerable okay enough speed is pretty good. Like Latios, you can't exactly switch in safely (eating Specs Blizzards and Draco Meteors is tough) but you can't Pursuit this one very well.

And with 417 hp/256 Def behind Reflect, Choice Band Technican Bullet Punch from Scizor does 36.45-43.17% (71.94-84.89% without Reflect). Scizor with Leftovers could not 2 hit ko the above Kyurem without Stealth Rock. Tyranitar is not fond of Scizor without Fire Punch/Flamethrower/Fire Blast either.

The damage is scalable and is meant just as a comparison.
A T-tar with 252 Hp/252 Def will take like 2% less damage from that Bullet Punch than a Kyurem with 252 HP/252 Def spread.

If you want to spam Draco Meteors,you have two mons that are better in that regard:
Latios and Sazandora(Who isn't Pursuit weak)
Neither are weak to Stealth Rock so they can lob off Meteors all over the place,and with Specs,they can hit super hard. They're also faster than Kyurem.(Not to mention,using a DM makes him near useless for special attacks,which you need for Blizzard >.>)
And using Reflect to turn a 2HKO into a 3HKO isn't worth the loss in coverage unless you're using a support set.

T-tar can do a bit of damage with a STAB Stone Edge against Scizor since it's unresisted.
BandTar's Stone Edge can 2HKO Impish 252 HP/252 Def Scizor:
604 Atk vs 328 Def & 344 HP (100 Base Power): 198 - 234 (57.56% - 68.02%)

No one uses that spread on Scizor,so T-tar doesn't need a fire move to fight Scizor.(Well,Scizor can't really switch in,so it can't counter unless it switches in on a Crunch or something)

He's not crap,but he's just meh.

 

[astrohawke]

Magic Guard isn't the problem, Rankurusu is as a whole. Rankurusu poses far to big a threat to dedicated stall teams to be dealt with consistently, because it's bulk + Recover makes it impossible for stall to wear it down through direct damage when coming off of generally weak walls, and Magic Guard makes it impossible to wear down through indirect damage. Other Magic Guard users don't pose this same threat, because they really don't have the bulk to take repeated attacks even when coming from weaker offensive stats, and lack good enough offensive stats to break stall (outside of Alakazam, who dies to a stiff breeze)

If your stall team can't deal with rankurusu, then it probably can't deal with clefable either because bulk wise, it's only slightly worse off than rankurusu. It's a difference of 30HP and 4 DEF while having 10 more SDEF. It too can utilize calm mind/softboiled and set up on stall teams because apparently they can't do anything to it.

 

[Nanoswine]

So all stall teams are 6 walls with 1 attack?
You should,in some way,be able to wear him down,and if you downright REFUSE to use an attacking mon,you can go the gimmicky way and use Worry Seed,forcing him to switch.
He'll pretty much be the last mon to die.

I never said that -__-

And sure you can wear him down, but then he just Recovers off the damage. If you don't have something that can OHKO it, you will lose at the very least 1 Pokemon to it (and with stall, the death of one member generally leads to the death of the rest). If you don't have anything that can 2HKO it, it's gg.

Worry Seed is extremely situational, and all it does is force him out.

If you haven't played stall against Rankurusu, it's easy to say you can just wear it down with attacks. But if you have, you know it's far too difficult to deal with. Whether that warrants a ban at this point, I don't know.

EDIT: @astrohawke

Quagsire beats Kyogre! Kyogre for UU!

Clefable is a horrible choice of a team member, because although it can do decently against stall, it is absolute crap against offensive teams (which I think are starting to get popular!)

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

I never said that -__-

And sure you can wear him down, but then he just Recovers off the damage. If you don't have something that can OHKO it, you will lose at the very least 1 Pokemon to it (and with stall, the death of one member generally leads to the death of the rest). If you don't have anything that can 2HKO it, it's gg.

Worry Seed is extremely situational, and all it does is force him out.

If you haven't played stall against Reuniclus, it's easy to say you can just wear it down with attacks. But if you have, you know it's far too difficult to deal with. Whether that warrants a ban at this point, I don't know.

He's tough to take down,no doubt,but so is a lot of stuff.
You don't REALLY need to OHKO.
It's not like he can just Recover off with his amazing 30 base speed >.>
If people wanna ban Reuniclus,they should ban Shinpora too,who can be a lot bulkier than Reuniclus and can hit quite hard. Ban Cleffable while you're at it too.(Not directing it at you)

 

[Nanoswine]

He's tough to take down,no doubt,but so is a lot of stuff.
You don't REALLY need to OHKO.
It's not like he can just Recover off with his amazing 30 base speed >.>
If people wanna ban Reuniclus,they should ban Shinpora too,who can be a lot bulkier than Reuniclus and can hit quite hard. Ban Cleffable while you're at it too.(Not directing it at you)

He finds plenty of opportunities to recover, like when you don't want to stay in with Nattorei to take a FB to the face and he gets a free turn on the switch. Or when your Latias is going to roar him out since it has up 2 CMs so it won't be doing jack shit to it anyways, so it gets a free turn.

If you can't OHKO it, it will likely OHKO you. If I lose my Latias, oh shit his SD Chomp is going to sweep me, because I just lost my biggest check to it! You can't just sac a Pokemon on a stall team the same way you can on an offensive team.

 

[astrohawke]

EDIT: @astrohawke

Quagsire beats Kyogre! Kyogre for UU!

Clefable is a horrible choice of a team member, because although it can do decently against stall, it is absolute crap against offensive teams (which I think are starting to get popular!)

You honestly make no sense and are just making excuses and exceptions to prove your case. Your point was that rankurusu destroys stall due to its bulk and instant recovery + magic guard. I showed you that clefable is just as bulky with instant recovery + magic guard.

Even if it were true that clefable is crap against offensive teams (which it isn't), it doesn't have anything to do with why you're saying rankurusu is broken. If rankurusu destroys stall, then clefable does too. And if clefable destroys stall, then it doesn't matter if it's bad against offense because I have 5 other pokemon that will cover it. If 1 pokemon can take down an entire play style, how exactly does it make a horrible choice for a team member?

EDIT: Have you considered that full stall just isn't a viable metagame strategy anymore? There are a crap ton of pokemon now that will take down at least one pokemon before going down which would make your stall team fall apart. It's time to adjust to the metagame and change your team to semi-stall or offense. I mean when pokemon like Heracross went from high OU in 3rd gen to BL in 4th gen, you accept that it's just not as good anymore. You don't go around banning all its hard counters like gliscor just to make it good again.

 

[Arc Tech]

There are plenty of stall pokes who are capable of beating Rankurusu. The trick room variant can be worn down by the attacks of stall teams, so it isn't too major a problem.

And there are plenty of stallish counters to magic guard rank. CM roar Latias, Unaware curse Quagsire, Spiritomb (CM/Trick/NP), probably more that I'm missing.