np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[TLK]

Agreed with this. Seriously what the fuck is up with all the people saying rankurusu single handedly destroys stall teams? Yea no shit if your stall team is completely bad and relies on setting up sr/spikes/toxic spikes and 6 walls that have 1 attacking move each and no real damage output. With a team like that, clefable would single handedly beat you too.

You mean, teams will have to adapt to the metagame?

We cannot allow this here.

Seriously, some shit like Landlos and Drizzle are broken as hell, but when one person nominates Rankurusu and then suddenly everyone tags along it's pathetic.

It's like Breloom, it requires a bit of thought to play around and create damage limitation, but its not broken. Like Machamp in Gen IV, it's hard to OHKO, but it can't take repeated hits without Recovering. If it recovers then you can keep the pressure on / it loses coverage.

 

[ungulateman]

Yeah, a lot of people are WAY too ban-happy. I have seen no evidence that Reuniclus, Wobbuffet or even Latios are overpowered and/or overcentralizing, so let's just focus on the obviously broken shit first - Drizzle, and either Sand Stream or Excadrill/Landorus. After that, we can take a closer look at the other suspects - personally, right now I feel we'll have a nicely balanced metagame after nerfing weather and no other bans will be needed, but my opinion may change later on... we'll see.

(edit: whoo, post #2000 in this thread)

Sorry, can't take you seriously when you say Wobbuffet isn't broken.

 

[Deaga]

Considering Wobbuffet wasn't even suspect last round, I think he may have some reason to think it's not broken.

 

[November Blue]

From the voter ID thread:

Latios and Latias

These guys are the same pokémon. There is nothing that Latios can do that Latias can't.

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong. This is the exact line of thinking that got Deoxys-N banned.

CAN WE PLEASE LEAVE THE FUCKING LATI TWINS ALONE?!

They are completely different pokemon!

First off, their stats:

Latios: 80/90/80/130/110/110

Latias: 80/80/90/110/130/110

Latias is a lot bulkier, but much weaker. They are not "the same." 319 special attack is not the same as 359. Latias can't dent stuff like her brother can. She's a defensive poke. Off the top of my head, latias gets roar, wish, healing wish and sucker punch (???) while latios gets dragon dance and memento.

If people would realize their differences, latias would be recognized as an amazing special wall. Wishpassing, CM + psycho shock + roar, reliable recovery, thunderwave, great speed and resistances...

Latias is really not ban worthy IMO. If you disagree, say so, but please have a valid argument.

Latios.

Draco meteor off 359 special attack and 349 speed. Powerful, yeah. Psycho shock, roost, 6 resistances, 110 SpDef, levitate, refresh/safeguard, calm mind, dragon typing... Sounds good!

Latios is vulnerable to passive damage, deadweight once paralyzed, pursuit weak, ice shard weak, has horrible 4 moveslot syndrome, no fire type move + 350 speed...

It goes without saying that latios is a good pokemon, but it's really not the omnipotent threat people make it out to be. It only has 80/80 physical defenses, and its 110 special defense is reasonable, but most of the time, it can't take a hit. It dies extremely quickly to passive damage, even without life orb, as it's constantly being switched in and out. Put roost on it to fix this problem? Sure. Roost, Draco Meteor and what? Calm mind? Which other attacking move would you like? Surf? Hello Ferrothorn and jellicent! Hp fire? Walled by heatran and other latios! Want specs and 4 attacks or trick? Scarved dragons and passive damage will kill you, and you lose a whole lot of power once you lose the specs.

It can't run everything at the same time, and it will be vulnerable to something depending on what it doesn't have. Latios is easily handled in a metagame with sand, rocks, ferrothorn, jellicent, heatran and weavile/mamoswine.

Wait.... did he just say weavile and mamoswine? Who the fuck is this guy? Is he suggesting that I actually use somewhat unseen pokemon in OU just to counter one pokemon? I mean, they're both useless aside from that, and nobody else ever uses them, so why should I? Everyone is nominating stuff so I'll just do that. Much easier.

If we ban the latis garchomp becomes the fastest dragon in OU. Will we eventually ban garchomp? Mence too? Dragonite and hydreigon are pretty powerful, let's throw them in as well! Where do we draw the line?

Besides, I love having the latis in OU. Long overdue IMO. Let's at least keep them here long enough to ascertain their tiering status properly, okay? Garchomp wasn't banned until late gen 4 people.


Deoxys-N was thrown out for being similar to Deo-A. Nobody used it! What the fuck was this decision based on?

There is a huge difference between 150 and 180. Without any boosting moves and the need to spread its EVs between all three offensive stats deoxys-N might turn out to be underwhelmingly weak in comparison. I would support a retest.

Inconsistent and shadow tag are the only abilities worth banning IMO. I really don't feel that a drizzle ban is necessary but if people really want something done, I would support aldarons proposal.
It would be a good compromise IMO. Swift swim is can easily be used without drizzle (rain inducers) just like previous gens.

Drizzle without manaphy and swift swim is nowhere near broken IMO. It's passive effects can enhance a team, but are not worth using a rain inducer for. This is the kind of stuff we will lose with a drizzle ban.

For example, I'm currently testing a team that utilizes passive rain. I have a lead politoed, a ferrothorn/jellicent/zapdos defensive core, and I'm testing the last 2 slots for other stuff. Ferrothorn only has a 2x fire weakness under rain, which allows it to beat magnezone with protect and leech seed. Jellicent gets a STAB boost and a 4x fire resist, while zapdos gains a fire resist and 100% accurate thunder.

I've tried other stuff like bulky shell smash hydration gorebyss with white herb, scizor (reduced fire weak) and OTR bronzong (no weaknesses.) Scarf dory would be a good insurance against sand teams if I lose rain actually...

Really, there are so many possibilities here that banning drizzle would neuter the metagame more that it would help it. Politoed/drizzle isn't the problem, it's manaphy and the swift swimmers. I believe that manaphy is broken, but kingdra/ludicolo/kabutops are not. If people decide that something must be done about rain, I think that banning the drizzle + swift swim combination on a team is the best choice overall.

And if you say no, it's too complicated, slippery slope ect. Look around. We reached the bottom of the slope ages ago.

 

[TLK]

Weavile and Mamoswine are NOT counters. A counter is something that can come in on Latios and either wall it or threaten to KO. Neither Weavile or Mamo can switch in.

Latios is broken because the Specs set can 2HKO every Pokemon in the game. HP Fire, Psycho Shock, Surf, DM is all a Latios ever needs, it doesn't even need trick to get past Blissey anymore. It outspeeds nearly everything without a scarf and stuff with a scarf can generally not switch in on any of its attacks.

Tyranitar is the closest thing to a counter for Latios (even that doesn't want to take a Specs Surf), but forcing every team to carry a T-Tar is just unhealthy for the metagame.

I agree that Latias would need more testing, but Latios has to go.

I'm sick of having to carry several steel types just to cushion the blow of DM being spammed all over the place by Latios. There is no creativity allowed in this metagame because it is all about Weather and Dragons right now, and that's how it will stay. This metagame is ridiculously unstable and just not fun to play.

 

[Arc Tech]

Specially defensive jirachi laughs at latios. And while the specs set can 2hko most things, it gets locked in, and has to predict the switch. Plus draco meteor, as well as quite simply the wrong move, means it's pursuit bait. And 110 isn't all that fast this gen, with all the weather speed boosters.

 

[TLK]

Common pursuit users that can freely switch in on Latios without worrying about getting OHKO'd or 2HKO'd:

Scarf Tyranitar


Just as the Latios user has to predict, so does the other guy have to predict rightly. The ability to out-predict an opponent is not justification for keeping something OU.

----------

Anyway, the point is, that even if it has some counters (and lets face it, even Kyogre has "counters" in the same way Latios does) it can 2HKO pretty much everything save a couple of Pokemon and outspeeds a fuck load.

 

[Arc Tech]

Special defensive ttar also can't be 2hko'd by specs surf and isn't very rare this gen. Also, if it is locked in to draco meteor or psycho shock, scizor can come in and ko with pursuit or uturn scout with the possibility of a ko.

scarfchomp or scarf sazandora outspeeds and easily kos for a revenge kill. Sanzandor can also hit it with SE uturn if it wants.

And kyogre probably ohkos more than 2hkos, and can spam its strongest move without drawbacks. Plus its strongest move is over 50% stronger.

 

[Deaga]

They are completely different pokemon!

Considering Latias got banned because of the Specs set last gen, which is Latios main set now, I actually find them to be really, really similar.

The only reason Latias is used more defensively and Latios is used more offensively is because they both are allowed at the same time. If, for whatever reason, Latias did not exist, there certainly would be a few defensive Latios running around.

Similarly, if Latios didn't exist (maybe because it got banned like last gen), then Latias can shine offensively.

They do outclass each other in defense (Latias is better) and offense (Latios's specialty), but they are both very good at both roles, and also surprising similar. The movepool differences are restricted to what? Mist Ball vs Luster Purge (lol) and Wish vs Memento... Meaning their movepools are basically the same too. With same typing, same ability and very similar stats.

 

[B-Lulz]

Specially defensive jirachi laughs at latios. And while the specs set can 2hko most things, it gets locked in, and has to predict the switch. Plus draco meteor, as well as quite simply the wrong move, means it's pursuit bait. And 110 isn't all that fast this gen, with all the weather speed boosters.

Because Special Defensive Jirachi loves a Tricked Choice Specs, and i'd like to bet it gets 3HKO'd by Specs HP Fire too.

While I think Latios should be gone, people are being way too ban happy in the nominations thread, and I acknowledge that at the start of this round I probably would have been the same way inclined. I think we need to take baby steps, not go at this like a bull in a china shop =/.

 

[TLK]

Special defensive ttar also can't be 2hko'd by specs surf and isn't very rare this gen. Also, if it is locked in to draco meteor or psycho shock, scizor can come in and ko with pursuit or uturn scout with the possibility of a ko.

scarfchomp or scarf sazandora outspeeds and easily kos for a revenge kill. Sanzandor can also hit it with SE uturn if it wants.

And kyogre probably ohkos more than 2hkos, and can spam its strongest move without drawbacks. Plus its strongest move is over 50% stronger.

Hm, remember I said "being able to out-predict your opponent isn't justification for it staying in OU".

Scizor can't switch in because it loses to any Latios with Sub / Life Orb / any non-choiced item.

Lots of things can revenge kill it. That means nothing though. Again, lots of clearly broken Pokemon like Kyogre can be revenge killed, that's meaningless though.

The point about Kyogre was just stating that just because something can counter it, the point is it can still outspeed and 2HKO the majority of the metagame fairly easily. Latios isn't "as broken as Kyogre", clearly, but its clearly broken as hell.

 

[Benlisted]

While I think Latios should be gone, people are being way too ban happy in the nominations thread, and I acknowledge that at the start of this round I probably would have been the same way inclined. I think we need to take baby steps, not go at this like a bull in a china shop =/.

I concur. With Drizzle etc as the current elephant in the room, a lot of things which would probably be broken without other things functioning as checks are most probably not at present, most notably the other weathers. People still seem to be nominating them though...

Also, lol'd at the analogy.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Latios needs another round. We don't have a stable enough metagame to ban things that aren't obviously wtfbroken. I'm on the fence about it anyway, since running HP Fire means you lose Trick or DPulse as well as the massively vital speed point.

 

[Ulevo]

How is it clearly broken as hell?

What, is it because it's fast and can "2HKO the whole metagame"? Is it because it has no "counters"?

These cookie cutter arguments work both ways, you know. You can't say an Uber Pokemon is Uber regardless if it can be revenge killed or has counter, and then turn around and make statements to justify the status of a Pokemon like Latios when the descriptions you're fitting it with apply to a lot of Pokemon in OU.

It's not clearly broken because if it were, it would be banned already and we wouldn't be having this discussion. On the other hand, Kyogre is clearly broken. If you need any proof of this, try asking anyone on Smogon if they believe Kyorge should be tested and see what they say.

 

[Katakiri]

Okay I want to say a few things here.

Deoxys-N was not banned just by being lumped in with Deoxys-A. He was banned in a similar way to Rayquaza. Nothing but Drizzle and Drought has changed since last Gen that effects Deoxys negatively. What new threatens Deoxys this gen? Sucker Punch from Zoroark, Kikikizan, and...Denchura? All Deoxys did this gen was get a buff from Psycho Shock so that not even Blissey can stop it, basically meaning that stall has no hope.

Now assume that Drizzle gets banned this round. What reason other than "It's not fair~!" should Deoxys be allowed in OU? You can't just whine and expect good results. I've yet to see a single convincing argument that tells exactly why Deoxys-N should be OU other than "It's not fair!"

And STOP acting like 150 Sp.Attack & 150 Speed isn't 150 Sp.Attack & 150 Speed. While it's not 180 Sp.Attack...IT'S STILL ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY SPECIAL ATTACK. And it's not like it's movepool is shallow in the slightest.

 

[astrohawke]

Specially defensive jirachi laughs at latios. And while the specs set can 2hko most things, it gets locked in, and has to predict the switch. Plus draco meteor, as well as quite simply the wrong move, means it's pursuit bait. And 110 isn't all that fast this gen, with all the weather speed boosters.

110 is still extremely high tier. With rain boosters on its way out one way or another and with sand everywhere, the only commonly used pokemon that actually outspeed 110 base are voltlos, jarooda, starmie, deoxys and dory in sand.

Having said that, at least Latios actually has counters. There are a ton of pokemon that don't even have counters or have way less counters that people aren't even noticing.

In all honesty, some people just vote to ban things their team can't deal with and insist other stuff isn't broken just because they have no problem dealing with it themselves.

 

[Ulevo]

Okay I want to say a few things here.

Deoxys-N was not banned just by being lumped in with Deoxys-A. He was banned in a similar way to Rayquaza. Nothing but Drizzle and Drought has changed since last Gen that effects Deoxys negatively. What new threatens Deoxys this gen? Sucker Punch from Zoroark, Kikikizan, and...Denchura? All Deoxys did this gen was get a buff from Psycho Shock so that not even Blissey can stop it, basically meaning that stall has no hope.

Now assume that Drizzle gets banned this round. What reason other than "It's not fair~!" should Deoxys be allowed in OU? You can't just whine and expect good results. I've yet to see a single convincing argument that tells exactly why Deoxys-N should be OU other than "It's not fair!"

And STOP acting like 150 Sp.Attack & 150 Speed isn't 150 Sp.Attack & 150 Speed. While it's not 180 Sp.Attack...IT'S STILL ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY SPECIAL ATTACK. And it's not like it's movepool is shallow in the slightest.

I'd like to turn this around.

Exactly, again, why was Deoxys-N banned in OU in Gen IV?

Was it because it was given a proper testing period and voted Uber? No. It was labeled with Uber status and stayed that way.

Now we enter Gen V, and we've moved away from that method of dealing with bans, and on to a more democratic process. And yet you're suggesting that we keep Deoxys-N banned because it was banned last generation, and nothing has been presented (in your mind) to consider it less of a threat in this generation?

I'll give you a reason. Threats are more powerful, slots are tighter, priority is everywhere (including priority abilities), and each of its effective sets have designated counters to it, as well as a myriad of checks. Regardless of whether or not you think it should be Uber or not, it doesn't change the fact that it was blindly thrown in to Uber without justification, and at least deserves a test.

If you need any other reason, consider that many others also share these sentiments, on top of the fact that no one is blindly attempting to drop down clear Ubers (i.e. Ho-Oh) and that should be reason enough.

 

[Benlisted]

Okay I want to say a few things here.

Whilst I agree that Deo-N would most likely be found broken due to its similarity to Deo-A, I think the main reason for it to be brought back down is that it was not tested since noone used it.

However, in the case of say Drought, which has been nominated a few times as a preemptive suspect much like what happened to Deo-N, Drought is simply not broken in the current meta, which has many things including other weathers holding it in check. As I see it, the difference between these cases is that Deo-N would most likely still have proven broken in the last round meta - Deo-A simply outclassed it and is the reason it was not used.

Admittedly I speculate as I have no experience with Deo-N, but this is how I see the situation at least, and as such I'm on the fence on the issue. I don't know if I should stick with my instincts and say we didn't test it fairly so it deserves a chance, or logically and reason that it would probably be broken anyway. The "probably" in the latter makes me lean towards retesting it, as without we can never be sure, however.

 

[Arc Tech]

it has no boosting moves outside of cheer up, and deoxys-s does cheer up better. And after setting up, many pokemon have as high or higher attacking stats than Deoxys. For comparison, max+ Deoxys-a attacking stats is approximately equal to +2 base 76 (neutral). While Deoxys may not need set up, it pays for that as being frail as hell. Not to mention that its typing isn't that great as a main stab- it may be decent this gen as a secondary thanks to all the fighting types, but pretty much all of the steels (especially those neutral to fighting) can take hits from it easily. And being able to beat blissey isn't a change, it learns superpower, which it needs to beat ttar anyway.

I wasn't even entirely convinced Deoxys-a was uber, and if it didn't have psycho boost, I probably would have voted it OU- poor stab, combined frailty and no set-up ability, would have more than balanced it. Psycho boost was the biggest thing to make up for the weakness of its stab.

 

[Bologo]

Okay I want to say a few things here.

Deoxys-N was not banned just by being lumped in with Deoxys-A. He was banned in a similar way to Rayquaza. Nothing but Drizzle and Drought has changed since last Gen that effects Deoxys negatively. What new threatens Deoxys this gen? Sucker Punch from Zoroark, Kikikizan, and...Denchura? All Deoxys did this gen was get a buff from Psycho Shock so that not even Blissey can stop it, basically meaning that stall has no hope.

Now assume that Drizzle gets banned this round. What reason other than "It's not fair~!" should Deoxys be allowed in OU? You can't just whine and expect good results. I've yet to see a single convincing argument that tells exactly why Deoxys-N should be OU other than "It's not fair!"

And STOP acting like 150 Sp.Attack & 150 Speed isn't 150 Sp.Attack & 150 Speed. While it's not 180 Sp.Attack...IT'S STILL ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY SPECIAL ATTACK. And it's not like it's movepool is shallow in the slightest.

So basically, what you're saying is, you've never played with or against Deoxys-N before, and that you're basing your ban on the same terrible theorymon that everyone else used. And lol, brushing off Drizzle and Drought as afterthoughts is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. You didn't even mention Sandstream's new perks. All three of those weathers allow massive amounts of pokemon to outspeed Deoxys without even trying. Not only that, but they can also OHKO Deoxys without trying either.

There's also the fact that there's are a lot of new, viable Choice Scarfers available, the majority of which can outspeed Deoxys.

I don't feel like going into detail here, because I already went into a lot of detail with my nomination in the nomination thread, but lol base stats clearly aren't everything. It's that OMG 150/150/150 OFFENSIVE SPREAD BAN NOW mentality that got Deoxys banned without even being used. Like I said in my nomination, the lower BP of his attacks make his offensive spread much less threatening; a lot of the weather pokemon just straight up hit harder than him, and they're faster than him in their weather, despite his big base stats.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

This Deoxys thing reminds me a bit of Snover/Abomasnow from 4th gen UU. Some people wanted to ban Snover along with Abomasnow, but when we actually played with Abomasnow banned and Snover allowed, it didn't turn out to be much of a problem at all.

I'm NOT saying that these two situations are EXACTLY the same, I'm just saying there's a few parallels we can draw between them. I'm not saying Deoxys is not broken, but I'm not opposed to testing it properly. I'd hate to have it banned if it's not actually broken for sure.

 

[petrie911]

Many people believe that forcing a user to use an 80% move when they made the personal decision to use a 100% move is gamebreaking. I've said that since last gen and I stand by it.

And yet, forcing a user to use 40% move when they made the personal decision to use a 100% move isn't gamebreaking?

Seriously, Pokemon is a game of chance. Just accept it and play the damn game, instead of making up stupid rules because of BAWWWW HAX BAWWWW. Next I presume you'll want to ban Quick Claw, Focus Band, and Brightpowder.

 

[Katakiri]

So basically, what you're saying is, you've never played with or against Deoxys-N before, and that you're basing your ban on the same terrible theorymon that everyone else used. And lol, brushing off Drizzle and Drought as afterthoughts is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. You didn't even mention Sandstream's new perks. All three of those weathers allow massive amounts of pokemon to outspeed Deoxys without even trying. Not only that, but they can also OHKO Deoxys without trying either.

There's also the fact that there's are a lot of new, viable Choice Scarfers available, the majority of which can outspeed Deoxys.

I don't feel like going into detail here, because I already went into a lot of detail with my nomination in the nomination thread, but lol base stats clearly aren't everything. It's that OMG 150/150/150 OFFENSIVE SPREAD BAN NOW mentality that got Deoxys banned without even being used. Like I said in my nomination, the lower BP of his attacks make his offensive spread much less threatening; a lot of the weather pokemon just straight up hit harder than him, and they're faster than him in their weather, despite his big base stats.

Where did I say I never used Deoxys-N?
I used it plenty back when it was OU and for good reason:

- Ability to survive a Mach Punch unlike Attack Form

- 399 Speed & 438 Sp.Attack with Max & Modest

- Unpursuitable as Deoxys-N outspeeds and OHKOs all Pursuit users bar Snorlax & Sucker Punch Spiritomb (Including Scarf Tyranitar)

- Mischievous Heart is a laughable argument as Deoxys can switch out evading the...(lol) Thunder Wave or Stun Spore or it can just stay in and Ice Beam the Mischievous Heart user all the way back to Kanto and even have a teammate Heal Bell the paralysis away

- Choice Scarfers:

- But seriously. Not every team can afford to give up a team slot to a Choice Scarf user just to counter a single Pokemon. Isn't that part of the reason we're banning Doryuuzu to begin with? Like Ulevo said earlier, team slots are getting stretched thinner than ever this Gen.

- Drizzle & Doryuuzu are OBVIOUSLY getting banned this round, so that's not even an argument anymore. Bringing Deoxys-N back at the exact same time you basically ban the largest chunk of it's counters. Brilliant.

- It's only true counters are Pokemon that carry both Priority & Pursuit and even then, there's only a 50-50 chance you'll choose the right option. A 50% counter really isn't a counter now is it?
_____________________________________

Believe me, I'm not going off theorymon. I'm going off experience and fact. (for the most part) If Deoxys-N gets put back in OU, I'll be happy to abuse it as Deoxys is one of my favorite sweepers. But I think...no. I KNOW there is VERY LITTLE justification to allow it in OU other than, once again, "It's not fair that he's Uber~!"

 

[Arc Tech]

And yet, forcing a user to use 40% move when they made the personal decision to use a 100% move isn't gamebreaking?

Seriously, Pokemon is a game of chance. Just accept it and play the damn game, instead of making up stupid rules because of BAWWWW HAX BAWWWW. Next I presume you'll want to ban Quick Claw, Focus Band, and Brightpowder.

Several big differences: that 40% thing is active (you have to keep iron heading/air slashing), as opposed to the passivity of evasion boosts (which is a large part of the reason inconsistent was banned, it was passive as opposed to acupressure, which is an active version of it), Iron head deals damage and therefore has another purpose which is its main purpose, wear the opponent down (like flamethrower's main purpose is damage, not burning). And finally, you also have to be faster.

Also, I nominated those items for creating luck with no other purpose than creating luck. And before people start saying scope lens/razor claw, those items only modify existing luck, it does not create new luck (a new dice roll).

 

[Deaga]

Iron head deals damage and therefore has another purpose which is its main purpose

I'm quite sure nobody would use Iron Head (or scarf Jirachi for that matter) if it didn't flinch. Bad base power and terrible coverage. Obviously the damage is required so that you can actually do something while flinching them (flinching without damage would be awful lol), but a flinch-less version of Iron Head would never be used.