np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

[Fluffy Otters]

I'm going to say that Deoxys-S is probably better at a cm or cheer up set due to its much higher defenses (cheer up is arguable). With higher base speed, it can invest much more in its defenses or offenses as well. The same applies to cosmic power (by far) and spiking.

In terms of Spiking and Cosmic Power, Deoxys-S will probably do that a lot better. But you do get the surprise factor since no one in their right mind would generally Taunt Deoxys-Normal or a Magic Coat/Mirror. Iron Defense/Reflect would probably have been a better option over Cosmic Power since it prevents Scizor Bullet Punch from 2 hit koing (lol) with investment.

However at Calm Mind, Deoxys will hit WAY harder than Deoxys-S at it which makes it better. Calm Mind Life Orb can destroy things like Deoxys-A with less priority weakness.

 

[Benlisted]

I totally ignore all such nominations. Aspects of a metagame should be considered based on their merits in the actual testing metagame, not based on assumptions of how a future metagame will go.

Man, it's very reassuring to have a mod affirm even what you presumed would be the case.. Anyway, given this statement that Reach and others have put forward as the correct manner to consider an aspect of a meta:

I don't disagree with you that Manaphy is a bit overpowered, but I simply think that we should probably test it a little bit in the metagame that Aldaron's proposal would bring about, where offensive Rain teams wouldn't be quite so centralizing.

Not to say I disagree either - that Manaphy may well prove unbroken outside of Rain - but in a similar manner to many of the absurd nominations based on assumptions about future metas, surely not nominating Manaphy under the presumption that in a future (rainless) meta it would prove unbroken is similarly an issue? It seems to me that the correct course of action would be to vote on Manaphy based on the current meta, and then if Drizzle leaves it could be nommed back down - though this is pretty convuluted, it seems the best way to do things based on our precedents.

Admittedly this is somewhat of a non-issue as Manaphy is already suspect, but I just wanted to bring up some discussion on this for the voters to see, as I'm genuinely not sure if I have this entirely right.

 

[iDunno]

I did a lot of calcs for Deoxys-N because I was bored:

This is a set that Deoxys might have run in Gen 4: Psycho Boost / Superpower/Ice Beam or Shadow Ball/Hidden Power Fire or Protect Rash@LO or something I dunno this is a pretty crappy set

0 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Rash Deoxys @LO:
252 HP / 252 SpDef Sassy Nattorei:
Psycho Boost: 33.2% - 39.2%
Superpower: 68.8% - 81.3%
Ice Beam: 30.1% - 35.8%
Conclusion: Nattorei can switch in on one move, but it must then immediately switch out in fear of Superpower as the combination of the two 2HKOes it.

252 HP / 252 SpDef Sassy Spiritomb @ Leftovers
Ice Beam: 37.2% - 43.8%
@Deoxys from same Spiritomb
Shadow Sneak and 40 BP Pursuit: 58.1% - 69.7%
Sucker Punch and 80 BP Pursuit: 115.4% - 136.9%
Conclusion: Spiritomb can win with a combination of Pursuit and Shadow Sneak, but if it is damaged beforehand it has a chance of losing since it can't OHKO with Shadow Sneak.

252 HP / 252 SpDef Careful Scizor @ Choice Band
Psycho Boost: 43.6% - 51.5%
Superpower: 43% - 51.2%
Ice Beam: 28.9% - 34.1%
@Deoxys from same Scizor
Technician Bullet Punch: 58.5% - 68.9%
Technician CB Bullet Punch: 87.6% - 103.3%
Technician Pursuit 40 BP: 78% - 92.1%
Technician CB Pursuit: 117% - 137.8%
Technician Bug Bite: 175.1% - 206.6%
Technician CB Bug Bite: 261.4% - 308.7% (lol kills it 3 times)
CB U-turn: 204.1% - 239.8%
U-turn: 135.3% - 160.2%
Conclusion: Deoxys has a high chance of winning if Scizor sustains Stealth Rock damage from switching into multiple threats and doesn't have CB. If Scizor is at full health without CB and doesn't switch in on Deoxys's Psycho Boost or SuperPower it can OHKO Deoxys with Pursuit after Stealth Rock and LO. CB Scizor can OHKO with Bullet Punch after SR and LO damage but is much more likely to be KOed by Superpower if it switches on Psycho Boost so it can't use Pursuit and guarantee the kill. Plus, if Deoxys is running a Mystigar-esque set it can use Pursuit to scout the CB Bullet Punch or Pursuit. If it doesn't have HP fire Scizor can win (um... yeah it's probably carrying HP Fire)

252 HP / 252 Def Impish Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Superpower: 105.9% - 125.7%
-1 Superpower: 71.3% - 84.2%
Conclusion: Too bad noone uses max Def Tyranitar. If they did it might stand a chance. Scarftar doesn't outrun Deoxys so don't mention that.

252 HP / 252 Def Bold Blissey @ Leftovers
Psycho Boost: 39.2% - 46.4%
Superpower: 53.8% - 63.6%
Ice Beam: 17.8% - 21%
Conclusion: Blissey better switch in on Ice Beam, or it might get 2HKOed by Psycho Boost and Superpower.

252 Atk / 252 Spe Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Psycho Boost: 26.7% - 31.4%
Super Power: 31.4% - 37%
Ice Beam: 24% - 28.4%
Hidden Power Fire: 71.6% - 84.5%
@Deoxys from same Jirachi:
U-turn: 92.1% - 108.7%
Conclusion: Yay! HP Fire doesn't OHKO! And Jirachi can OHKO with U-turn :).

252 HP / 252 SpD Burungeru @ Leftovers
Psycho Boost: 63.1% - 74.3%
-1 Psycho Boost: 41.8% - 49.3%
Conclusion: For the love of god... just don't even try lol.

252 HP 252 Atk Bronzong @ Leftovers
Psycho Boost: 23.7% - 27.8%
Superpower: 41.7% - 49.1%
Hidden Power Fire: 32.5% - 38.5%
@Deoxys from same Bronzong:
Gyro Ball: 115.8% - 136.1%
Conclusion: Bronzong's awesome.

This is Deoxys-N's debut as a monster killing machine: Psycho Shock / Focus Blast / Shadow Ball / Ice Beam or Protect Rash@LO

Psycho Shock:
252 HP / 252 Bold Blissey Bold: 52.7% - 62.2%
252 HP Roobushin: 104.8% - 123.7%
Focus Blast:
252 HP / 252 SpD Nattorei Sassy: 76.7% - 90.3%
252 HP / 252 SpD Tyranitar Careful: 99% - 116.8%
252 Atk / 252 Spe Jirachi Jolly: 55.4% - 65.4%
252 HP Jirachi: 51.6% - 60.8%
252 HP / 252 SpD Jirachi Calm: 36.9% - 43.6%
252 HP Bronzong: 49.4% - 58.3%
252 HP / 252 SpD Bronzong Sassy: 39.9% - 47%
252 HP Scizor: 72.9% - 85.7%
252 HP 252 SpD Scizor Careful: 50.1% - 59.5%
Ice Beam:
252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Latias: 54.4% - 64.3% 2HKO
252 HP / 252 SpDef Sassy Spiritomb:37.2% - 43.8%
Shadow Ball:
252 HP / 252 SpD Cresselia: 40.5% - 48.2% (Its a fuckin Cresselia lol)
252 HP / 252 SpD Dusclops Calm: 39.4% - 46.5%
252 HP / 252 Def Dusclops Bold: 52.1% - 62%
252 HP Rankurusu: 74.5% - 88.2%

 

[TLK]

The amount of ridiculously strong things that Bronzong can beat is pretty crazy. It's just a massive shame it doesn't get any reliable recovery, because it would be much more used if it did.

 

[TacoBot]

Right now we have little idea of how the metagame is working. Deoxys might be manageable now to be OU, but if Drizzle + Swift Swim is removed from the equation it could be harder to bring down without a specialised counter. Scarf doesn't help much for most Pokemon against 150 speed.

From what I can see, I think 5th Gen will be more offensively biased than 4th gen. Yes, people said the same thing last gen ("stall is impossible blahblah") but with so many more new threats and some old threats getting stronger, the chances of getting stable stall are pretty slim... Unless things start getting banned left and right. It seems that the focus needs to shift to aggressively trying to press a sweep than to wear down the opponent's Pokemon bit-by-bit using walls or tanks then sending in sweepers to finish. The metagame could possibly change drastically with this mindset.

tl;dr - I doubt Deoxys will be broken in current conditions, but if say any of the speed-boosted-by-weather mons go, it would make it harder to bring down and push it towards broken for the metagame then since it's then difficult to revenge without a fast Pokemon with Scarf. Tanking it out and beating it down is viable as well, but less checks overall in the metagame are less ways it can be threatened.

 

[Pocket]

I don't know man, BW also introduced several monsters with some unprecedented defensive capabilities, namely Ferrothorn, Water Absorb Jellicent, Virizion, Golurk, DW Regeneration Slowbro / Tangrowth / Amoonguss, and Porygon2 with Evolution Stone.

 

[Arc Tech]

And there's those yet to come, such as MH Sableye.

However I would say ferrothorn is more of a nerf to stall teams- it provides more offensive balance teams with a defensive pivot and many hazards. An advantage in hazards was something a stall team had over a more balanced or offensive team in past gens. And Forretress does the same thing with the ability to spin, although it lacks a water and electric resist. Although it does get fighting neutrality.

 

[SlimMan]

tl;dr - I doubt Deoxys will be broken in current conditions, but if say any of the speed-boosted-by-weather mons go, it would make it harder to bring down and push it towards broken for the metagame then since it's then difficult to revenge without a fast Pokemon with Scarf.

It's not that hard to out-speed with a Scarf. In order to out-run it, a pokemon must have at least 84 base speed. 84 is not that fast.


Speaking of base 84 speed, I'd like to mention Skuntank. He's out-classed at pretty much everything, but he's able to revenge a few convenient things. Not very many, but a few.

And there's those yet to come, such as MH Sableye.

Geez, that thing is going to be so good. I think the current DW set is Taunt/Night Shade/WoW/Recover. It will check so many things.

The amount of ridiculously strong things that Bronzong can beat is pretty crazy. It's just a massive shame it doesn't get any reliable recovery, because it would be much more used if it did.

If it got Recover, you could stick it on a Sand-weak team and be good-to-go. If it got Recover it would probably be on every third team, it would be so good. Unfortunately, the new Wish mechanics have made it harder than ever to keep Bronzong alive.

 

[astrohawke]

252 HP / 252 Def Bold Blissey @ Leftovers
Psycho Boost: 39.2% - 46.4%
Superpower: 53.8% - 63.6%
Ice Beam: 17.8% - 21%
Conclusion: Blissey better switch in on Ice Beam, or it might get 2HKOed by Psycho Boost and Superpower.

Some of these calculations seem a bit off. The superpower calculation especially seems wrong as that looks like the kind of damage Dexoys-S does with superpower so I checked it. It does 81-95%.

 

[SJCrew]

So Deoxys-N, using its best move, has power comparable to LO Starmie's Hydro Pump, slightly weaker than ScarfSazandora's Draco Meteor, and significantly weaker than LO Heatran's Fire Blast or Blaziken's LO Hi Jump Kick.

I noticed you did your calc with Psychic instead of Psycho Boost. Here's what it'd look like if we were actually using his best move: 81.9% - 96.5%. And with + Sp. Att: 90.1% - 106.2%.

It looks to me that 90% of the people begging for Deoxys-N back in OU are bandwagoning. "Ah what the hell, this metagame can't be any worse than it already is, let's just test all kinds of random shit." Speaking as a player who's actually used him before, I'm very doubtful he'll prove to be balanced in this metagame. But hey, it's you guys' poison.

 

[TheValkyries]

But SJ, you can't fault them for at least trying to maintain some kind of proprietary sense of banning conservatively. A sense that is too far and few between these days, in my opinion.

 

[IcyMan28]

I noticed you did your calc with Psychic instead of Psycho Boost. Here's what it'd look like if we were actually using his best move: 81.9% - 96.5%. And with + Sp. Att: 90.1% - 106.2%.

It looks to me that 90% of the people begging for Deoxys-N back in OU are bandwagoning. "Ah what the hell, this metagame can't be any worse than it already is, let's just test all kinds of random shit." Speaking as a player who's actually used him before, I'm very doubtful he'll prove to be balanced in this metagame. But hey, it's you guys' poison.

I did use Psychic, as I was unsure weather Psycho Boost would be overwhelmingly the superior option like it was on Deoxys-A.

If Deoxys-N still proves too powerful (as it very well may), then let it be banned. I just feel that it deserves a proper test, and am surprised such a notion is being accepted as we face Rankurusu and Nattorei (lol) nominations.

 

[November Blue]

Even so, in this case it's not necessarily a bad thing. It's good to see everyone agree on something positive that makes sense instead of

WTF YOU GUYS IT HAS 150/150/150 IT'S CLEARLY BROKEN!!!11

Do you think it should stay in ubers without a proper test SJ?


Also, does anyone else think that there might be something inherently wrong with allowing new members to vote? In the ID thread, there was one person who had just registered an account here and written his first post. You might think that I'm being incredibly shallow, but when we have people like lamppost voting, you can't help but feel slightly unnerved.

Hide

Whats the big deal about banning abilities on just a certain pokemon anyway? It's not like there's a law stopping us from doing so. If it helps make a more desirable metagame why not do it? I just don't understand the controversy.
I got my rating, i earned my rating, and im going to vote for what i want regardless of what you guys argue about here. Im pretty sure everyone with voting rights knows what their going to vote against already. I'm going to vote for what i think will make a more fun metagame. I think too many people forget that this is for fun.

I nominated drought, and i intend to vote on it also. Just because its not the only offensive weather right now doesn't mean we haven't played against a normal weather team vs. sun. Sun automatically has the advantage over normal teams just like rain with chlorophyl. It makes venasuar just as dangerous if not more dangerous than kingdra. Growth gives him +2 +2 to both attack stats making it super hard to wall. It also has synthesis if you want to use that. There are also abusers that don't have chlorophyl liike urugomasu and blaziken(mentioned in my nomination). After a swords dance blaziken can be even more deadly than venasuar. It gets the free speed boosts as well as the blaze kick boost to pretty much 2hko everything. Same goes for urugomasu, just with butterfly dance making it bulky.

im pure skill (already posted but heres my noms)

I support Aldaron's idea to ban drizzle + swift swim combo

Anyways heres my noms:

Drizzle-drizzle is by far the worst thing that has happened to the metagame. It has caused the metagame to overcentralize around a certain group of mons. Other than that it has too many sweepers that just make it ridiculous. Drizzle has made it so that whoever controls the weather wins the game.

Drought-As heist said i think that this weather will take over as the premier heavy offense weather once drizzle is banned. If drizzle is somehow not banned then i think drought should stay. Drought may not have many viable chlorophyl users but the sheer abuse of the power boost of fire moves is just stupid. Venasaur has a super high speed in the sun and the move growth which makes it ridiculously hard to wall. so many sweepers can abuse the sun like blaziken and urugamasu(idk how to spell it).

Doryuuzu- Doryuuzu is just flat out overpowered. It reaches near 600 speed in the sand! If thats not enough it had the move swords dance which can pretty much tear through any team.

Randorusu- overlooked last round but hopefully not this round. IMO its more dangerous than dory is. It can rock polish or swords dance, or BOTH. If it can get both up it's virtually unstoppable.

It seems to me that he's voting for all the wrong reasons. "Fun" is subjective and too volatile a variable to base bans upon. There really is no way to say this without sounding like a dick, but is it really in the best interest of the metagame or smogon policy to allow people like this to vote? I realize that my opinion isn't the be all and end all, but I can't help but feel that voting in this manner is "unhealthy" for the metagame, especially considering the current state of this thread. Suspect rounds are arduous periods of testing, discussion, reasoning, comparison ect. If we intend to vote, we make sure that we're making an informed choice that benefits the metagame, right? (said kinda loosely)

Do we base our voting system on democracy or a panelist structure?

That is, do we allow anyone to vote, regardless of their level of knowledge regarding smogon policy or past metagame trends/tiering results, or do we expect some responsibility from voters? We nominate stuff because we think it needs to be considered as a possible uber candidate, not because we refuse to adapt and put a poke on our team we might not like. When everyone adapts and changes like this it's called metagame evolution, not overcentralization (well, in most cases.)

I feel kinda uncomfortable posting this, like I'm stepping on ice, so please don't flame me. Oh, and Lamppost, this isn't meant to be a personal attack. You're just my example.

 

[moe1216]

Even so, in this case it's not necessarily a bad thing. It's good to see everyone agree on something positive that makes sense instead of

WTF YOU GUYS IT HAS 150/150/150 IT'S CLEARLY BROKEN!!!11

Do you think it should stay in ubers without a proper test SJ?


Also, does anyone else think that there might be something inherently wrong with allowing new members to vote? In the ID thread, there was one person who had just registered an account here and written his first post. You might think that I'm being incredibly shallow, but when we have people like lamppost voting, you can't help but feel slightly unnerved.


It seems to me that he's voting for all the wrong reasons. "Fun" is subjective and too volatile a variable to base bans upon. There really is no way to say this without sounding like a dick, but is it really in the best interest of the metagame or smogon policy to allow people like this to vote? I realize that my opinion isn't the be all and end all, but I can't help but feel that voting in this manner is "unhealthy" for the metagame, especially considering the current state of this thread. Suspect rounds are arduous periods of testing, discussion, reasoning, comparison ect. If we intend to vote, we make sure that we're making an informed choice that benefits the metagame, right? (said kinda loosely)

Do we base our voting system on democracy or a panelist structure?

That is, do we allow anyone to vote, regardless of their level of knowledge regarding smogon policy or past metagame trends/tiering results, or do we expect some responsibility from voters? We nominate stuff because we think it needs to be considered as a possible uber candidate, not because we refuse to adapt and put a poke on our team we might not like. When everyone adapts and changes like this it's called metagame evolution, not overcentralization (well, in most cases.)

I feel kinda uncomfortable posting this, like I'm stepping on ice, so please don't flame me. Oh, and Lamppost, this isn't meant to be a personal attack. You're just my example.

I am not going to lie. This is a very good point. It's better to have more experienced players decide on the competitive side of pokemon as generally they have more of an idea of an ideal metagame since they've been molding it for, probably, years. I've played pokemon for 12 years and have a good understanding of the game, but I'm not that well versed in the competitive side as I've only done it for a little more than a year, though I am reading warstories and forums to gain a much better understanding. I worry sometimes that the guys who've posted before me are ban happy, but I can understand why Drizzle should or should not be banned, or even Excadrill and Landlos. I no have desire to reach the required ranking, I just want to give my two cent and hope that when this is over we have a metagame everyone can enjoy.

 

[Athenodoros]

I would like to point out that knowledge of past metagames has no relevance to the new one, and indeed might make it harder to make an impartial decision about this one. It seems like only allowing more experienced players will only serve to worsen this bias, although I do see the benefits of people who understand the aims of the tiering process.

 

[moe1216]

I would like to point out that knowledge of past metagames has no relevance to the new one, and indeed might make it harder to make an impartial decision about this one. It seems like only allowing more experienced players will only serve to worsen this bias, although I do see the benefits of people who understand the aims of the tiering process.

My bad. Hadn't thought about that. The new metagame is alot different compared to the previous four generations, especially due to the DW abilities making weather much more viable and dangerous. Like I said before, I am worried about ban happy players and thought that a most of them were new players, but I was wrong.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

It looks to me that 90% of the people begging for Deoxys-N back in OU are bandwagoning. "Ah what the hell, this metagame can't be any worse than it already is, let's just test all kinds of random shit." Speaking as a player who's actually used him before, I'm very doubtful he'll prove to be balanced in this metagame. But hey, it's you guys' poison.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I found it weird that we decided that a Pokemon that hardly anybody was using was broken.

Again, you said you've actually used him before. Most of us haven't, because we were busy using Deoxys-A. You may've used him extensively and decided he's broken, but most of us haven't. As a community, we will all be sharing the tier list, and I think it'd be better for more people to use and battle against Deoxys before deciding that it's broken.

I dunno, this just seems a bit like banning Magnezone and deciding to ban Magneton with it, since it's almost the same, just generally a bit weaker with a couple of advantages, such as a higher speed in this case. Maybe Magneton would actually be broken, but I think it should be tested nonetheless, especially if it weren't getting much usage due to most people opting for Magnezone.

 

[Nonary Game]

If Drizzle goes, Sand Stream should go along with it. Sand's still running almost as rampant as ever, iirc, and will probably end up dominating entirely without rain. Hell, getting rid of infinite sand would probably go a long way towards taking care of that Excadrill problem, for that matter.

I'll reiterate, though, that I feel we're being way too fast with bans and such. The game's not even out yet in most of the world, for God's sake.

This is a point I completely disagree with, and I'm moving it here to not clog the nominations thread.

We've had constant sandstorm for something like three generations now. Why the hell would Sand Stream be broken NOW, of all things? It makes no goddamn sense. It'd be like banning Hippowdon and Tyranitar when, despite both being good, they aren't even broken in the first place, as none of them have another DW ability yet IIRC.

Personally, regarding Excadrill, I'd rather have Sand Throw than Excadrill himself removed, as I think most agree that the problem is how fast he gets.

 

[TacoBot]

It doesn't matter how many posts a member has if that member can coherently put forth valid arguments as to why things should or should not be banned, especially since experience in previous gens could easily sway one towards solutions that are not the best.

Sandstorm was okay for the past three generations because there were no abilities that gave a significant boost to a Pokemon in sandstorm, and I have to say Sand Throw and Sand Power are long overdue additions to the ability pool. I don't really support banning Excadrill at all, but if something has to go, I'd pick Excadrill, because it's pretty obvious he was designed to take Sandstorm and run away with it. Take away Sand Throw, and Excadrill gets completely busted. The only other sets that I can think of for it are Rapid Spin Sand Strength or Scarf Sand Strength. In this weather metagame, Scarf simply isn't enough for speed, and Rapid Spin Sand Strength leaves it vulnerable to everything faster. Just let him go, IMHO. At least he'll have a rep for being so obscenely powerful that he was sent to Ubers and you can still use him there to rip shit up.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

It's Sand Rush not Sand Throw

Sand Rush is the official translation.

And I don't think that Stoutland is broken with Sand Rush.

 

[cosmicexplorer]

Personally, regarding Excadrill, I'd rather have Sand Throw than Excadrill himself removed, as I think most agree that the problem is how fast he gets.

Is Sandslash broken in sand? It acheives around the same speed in sand, and actually hits harder than Dory, because it can use a Life Orb instead of having to use a Balloon/Chople Berry, and can use Stone Edge over Rock Slide. It's a pretty powerful sweeper, but does Sand Throw make that broken? If not, Sand Throw itself isn't broken, it's just Doryuuzu. In my opinion, it's not, so Dory itself should be banned, not Sand Throw.

If either Dory or Randorosu is broken in sand (or both), then they should be banned, not Sand itself. Rain makes sense to ban in itself, because of the material benefits it gives outside Swift Swim, but Sand has none of that, so it doesn't make sense to ban it instead of the abusers.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Is Sandslash broken in sand? It acheives around the same speed in sand, and actually hits harder than Dory, because it can use a Life Orb instead of having to use a Balloon/Chople Berry, and can use Stone Edge over Rock Slide. It's a pretty powerful sweeper, but does Sand Throw make that broken? If not, Sand Throw itself isn't broken, it's just Doryuuzu. In my opinion, it's not, so Dory itself should be banned, not Sand Throw.

If either Dory or Randorosu is broken in sand (or both), then they should be banned, not Sand itself. Rain makes sense to ban in itself, because of the material benefits it gives outside Swift Swim, but Sand has none of that, so it doesn't make sense to ban it instead of the abusers.

Well,Sandlash can only reach a maximum of 502 Speed,which means he can out speed almost everything except Scarfers with like 105 speed.
Hitting pretty hard,not being weak to Mach Punch,and still having insane speed might make him just as strong,if not stronger than Excadrill.

 

[astrohawke]

Sandslash is indeed broken.

EDIT: I also find the amount of bandwagoning here hilarious. It was all "I support Aldaron's proposal for 5 pages" even though most people were intent on banning drizzle during the discussions. Then someone mentions pocket's proposal and suddenly everyone after that is all "I support pocket's proposal".

 

[Arc Tech]

I've used both and I can say that if I had to chose between them, I'd choose Sandslash. However, I have yet to try adamant LO dory, so it's inconclusive so far. The most common poke that Sandslash loses to that balloon Dory doesn't is Balloon dory himself...

 

[Tman1997]

i say it is team to ban drizzle. it is really affecting the ou metagame
and give manaphy an other chance without drizzle