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Chandelure

Lee said:
I'd imagine the reason you're having so much difficulty crafting a boosting sweeper is because Shandera simply isn't cut out to sweep whole teams. If I was going to go the boosting role (which I wouldn't because Scarf is better obviously) I'd just go Sub/CM/two attacks. Come in on something, boost up, kill it, kill whatever the opponent sacrifices to get rid of Shandera's Sub and then simply switch out of whatever they bring in for the revenge kill. Shandera has just killed two Pokemon and is still on 100% health...sounds awesome to me.

You're so caught up in creating some kind of unstoppable, 6-0 sweeper that you'll probably end up with something that's neither here nor there.
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Uhhh,I don't really want an unstoppable force like that ._.
I just want to be able to sweep with as little support as possible.
Everyone knows Shandera can't sweep entire teams without crap like Aianto + Shandy or a mon locked into a fighting move >.>

It really isn't. Tentacruel doesn't possess the ability to do anything back outside of poison after one or two calm minds. Additionally, there's azumarril, you will always revenge you (90% minimum with aqua jet), but meh.
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Tentacruel can do quite a bit of damage though:
196 Atk vs 215 Def & 261 HP (80 Base Power): 158 - 188 (60.54% - 72.03%)

That's with NO invesment in SpA. Though,even Modest 252 Sp.Attack Tentacruel can't always OHKO Shandy.
And I forgot how common Azumarill is./sarcasm
 
Can't shandera just be the awesome switch-hitter it's meant to be?

With substitute on the switch too?

I mean, the sweeper is nice but without shadow tag what will it set up on?
 
Zebstrika said:
It's Chandelure.
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I don't like that. It makes things likes Scizor and Nattorei bend over for him and serve as lures to Fire type atacks.

Has anyone considered Nitro Charge?
Timid-4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Substitute
-Nitro Charge
-Flamethrower
-Hidden Power Ground/Shadow Ball

Set up a seb with anticipation for a switch or little damage, use Nitro Charge to boost your speed, then sweep with HP Ground if you want to be walled by bulky waters or Shadow Ball if you wanna be walled by Heatran or the likes. Flamethrower, of course, is your main STAB.
 
I would ditch the substitute for another coverage move, like energy ball. If you aren't boosting your defenses with calm mind/acid armor, I don't really see the point of getting a sub up unless you want to block status.
 
Nubbins said:
I would ditch the substitute for another coverage move, like energy ball. If you aren't boosting your defenses with calm mind/acid armor, I don't really see the point of getting a sub up unless you want to block status.
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Well, wouldn't you be POed if Borutorusu just came in and T-Waved you? I know I would be.
 
Yes I would. But I would be more pissed if I got walled by a burungel. A ghost being walled by a ghost? Shameful.

But chances are you won't have the sub intact by the time you finish boosting your speed. I've dicked around with nitro charge shandy early on and the best pokemon to setup on typically have an attack strong enough to break your sub in one or two hits. So by the time you've boosted your speed enough, they will have broken your sub. Yes you could set up another sub and then start your sweep, but chances are you'll be walled by a Blissey rather than be stun spored by an erufuun.
 
Nubbins said:
Yes I would. But I would be more pissed if I got walled by a burungel. A ghost being walled by a ghost? Shameful.

But chances are you won't have the sub intact by the time you finish boosting your speed. I've dicked around with nitro charge shandy early on and the best pokemon to setup on typically have an attack strong enough to break your sub in one or two hits. So by the time you've boosted your speed enough, they will have broken your sub. Yes you could set up another sub and then start your sweep, but chances are you'll be walled by a Blissey rather than be stun spored by an erufuun.
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I suppose, in which case you could run nitro-charge, shadowball, flamethrower, and maybe...HP fighting or HP ice?
 
tehy said:
Can't shandera just be the awesome switch-hitter it's meant to be?

With substitute on the switch too?

I mean, the sweeper is nice but without shadow tag what will it set up on?
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Nubbins said:
I would ditch the substitute for another coverage move, like energy ball. If you aren't boosting your defenses with calm mind/acid armor, I don't really see the point of getting a sub up unless you want to block status.
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I've tried a Sub, 3 Atks Shandy with FF to great effect as a Fire absorber on my Sun teams. Essentially, many people assume you come in to revenge them, and will switch out to something they think can take Shandy's hit and force it out. Subbing lets you see thier switchin, and most likely OHKO it (or at worst get a shot at something else coming in). It's excellent in terms of being unpredictable and easily able to punch holes in people's teams whilst not being vulnerable itself. I think I ran Fire Blast/Energy Ball/HP Fight.
 
I honestly dislike Scarfdera because your just asking for tar to come in and poop all over you. Energy Ball isn't that great a move, maybe a set like Sub/Hp Fighting/Fire Blast/Shadow Ball.
 
I've tried SubNitro...it's OK.
Really,I've tried most Shandy sets. None of them are that bad,but I want a sweeper.

T-tar is always a problem,but with a LO,you will always OHKO him with HP Fighting(After SR),assuming no investment in T-tar's bulk:
426 Atk vs 354 Def & 341 HP (70 Base Power): 316 - 372 (92.67% - 109.09%)

Gyarados is a bit tougher to kill:
426 Atk vs 236 Def & 331 HP (80 Base Power): 202 - 238 (61.03% - 71.90%)

Shadow Ball just can't hit him hard enough.
After a CM:
639 Atk vs 236 Def & 331 HP (80 Base Power): 301 - 355 (90.94% - 107.25%)

You also need to be at +1 to always 2HKO Tentacruel:
639 Atk vs 372 Def & 364 HP (80 Base Power): 193 - 228 (53.02% - 62.64%)

You need to be at +1 to always 2HKO Dnite too,assuming SR canceled Multi-Scale:
639 Atk vs 328 Def & 386 HP (80 Base Power): 217 - 256 (56.22% - 66.32%)

At +1,you can also 2HKO Suicune:
639 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (80 Base Power): 198 - 234 (49.01% - 57.92%)

You will also 2HKO Heatran at +1 with HP Fighting:
639 Atk vs 342 Def & 386 HP (70 Base Power): 244 - 288 (63.21% - 74.61%)

Amazingly,you can 2HKO Blissey with just a LO and 1 CM using Fire Blast:
639 Atk vs 306 Def & 714 HP (120 Base Power): 349 - 412 (48.88% - 57.70%)

Assuming Blissey switches in on you,she can't touch you xD

What about Chansey?
852 Atk vs 369 Def & 704 HP (120 Base Power): 387 - 456 (54.97% - 64.77%)

I don't know what EVs are commonly used for Chansey,but you need to be at +2 to be able to 2HKO a Chansey with no investment in Sp.Def.

Last one of the mons I listed....Pory2.
Wow,you will always be able to 2HKO him after 1 CM(And LO too) using Fire Blast: 639 Atk vs 475 Def & 374 HP (120 Base Power): 226 - 267 (60.43% - 71.39%)


So,Shandera needs 2 turns of set up,SR,and for these mons to be removed before you can start a sweep...another annoying mon would be Houndoom,but who would use him OU?
The only thing that stops you is the second turn of set up needed....LO + Any damage you take makes your life span way too short...

Chandelure is kinda like Ho-oh....nothing wants to switch in to take that Sacred Fire,or Fire Blast in Chandelure's case...especially after a Flash Fire boost....ouch.
 
Sub Nitro was only really special on my sun teams. Otherwise, I didn't end up using substitute too often, just calm mind and nitro charge.
 
I'm just gonna add a couple things to the Chandelure counter/check list:
-T-tar
-Blissey
-Chansey
-Pory2
-Suicune
-Tentacruel
-Heatran
-Hydreigon/Sazando
-Voltolos(Priority T-wave...)
-Swampert
-Garchomp
-Snorlax
-Zoroark
-Most bulky waters

T_T
Sweeping with Flash Fire Chandelure is freaking impossible.
-Sub sets are too slow,too weak,or have terrible coverage.
-Nitro Charge sets lack the power needed for those important OHKOs.
-Any set with LO shortens Chand's life span too much.
-"Bulky" sets are just too frail.

Chandelure's a mess >.>
It needs Speed because a crapton of stuff out speed it.
It needs Power because a crapton of stuff can easily OHKO it.
I want a unique set for myself...I can't come up with anything decent.
I give up :(

Was using this:

Chandelure @ LO
Modest - 4 Def/252 Sp.A/252 Speed
Flash Fire
-Fire Blast
-Shadow Ball
-CM
-Nitro Charge
 
Chandelure isn't meant to be a sweeper. Unlike another well-known Flash Fire Pokemon, it has terrible bulk and its coverage is actually rather lacking. Sure, it has 147 SpA but its 'Sweeping' sets get walled (and killed) by Heatran.

In my opinion the only reason why it's used is because of Shadow Tag. It's just broken. With its massive pool of resistances and immunities it's no wonder Choiced Bug/Steel/Fighting/Normal (Yeah poor Scizor) moves (with the exception of U-Turn) have become much MUCH rarer.
 
I would recommend a sub set with balloon. With a balloon, Chand sports the same excellent immunities as gengar with significantly more power and flash fire to boot. If you can actually bait the flash fire Chand has a chance to 2hko blissy after SR. Sub means that anything coming in on a predicted attack will instead have to face down one of her other attacks from that deadly SPA stat. There are simply a lot of pokes out there right now that get scared off by fire moves. Its a good chance to set up a sub.

The set would be something like

Chandelure w/Balloon
252 SPA/252 Speed, Timid/Modest
Fire Blast/Flamethrower/Overheat
Shadow Ball
Hidden Power Ground/Rock/Fighting
Substitute

There is not a whole lot that can come in on a sub from this set and hope to get away unscathed, particularly with SR or spikes up. Most forms of TTar risk a 2hko from HP ground after spikes or toxic spikes, where as gyra really doesn't like taking SR damage and then a shadow ball. If its bulky enough to take a hit, it probably wont out speed and take a second one. Gets even better if you use a sub-seeder or a poison type to bait the earth and fire moves (grass/steel anyone?).

Like gengar, I dont think Chan is going to be a high sweeper. Im more interested in abusing that silly high attack stat and firing it off from behind a sub. Preferably in the sun.
 
Enlong said:
So, is there any merit to using Flash Fire Chandelure?
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Tremendous, world smashing power if you pull it off. Its a bit like a specs heatran on crack. If you actually happen to be using specs and get a flash fire boost you straight up 2hko the standard bliss. Most dragons are 1hkoed after a FF boost and specs, even some of the bulky variants. Suffice to say sun makes this setup even more ridiculous.

Its overkill a lot of the time, but it helps give Chan one more total immunity to preserve its precious health and gives its already massive attack the edge it needs to be completely nuts. It has its place.
 
Golem Rising said:
Tremendous, world smashing power if you pull it off. Its a bit like a specs heatran on crack. If you actually happen to be using specs and get a flash fire boost you straight up 2hko the standard bliss. Most dragons are 1hkoed after a FF boost and specs, even some of the bulky variants. Suffice to say sun makes this setup even more ridiculous.

Its overkill a lot of the time, but it helps give Chan one more total immunity to preserve its precious health and gives its already massive attack the edge it needs to be completely nuts. It has its place.
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That pretty much.
Sun + FF + LO/Specs Fire Blast is just overkill.
And to does who say Chandy can't sweep...it definitely can.
The Nitro Charge set does well for late-game sweeps.

Chandelure - Modest @ Life Orb
Flash Fire - 252 Speed/252 Sp.A/4 Def
-Fire Blast
-Shadow Ball
-HP Fighting/Ground
-Nitro Charge

Come in on something that can't hurt you,like a Nattorei or something,Nitro Charge on the switch and start throwing Fire Blasts all over the place.
 
Actually you shouldn't be talking about 'OHKOing dragons' because the only Dragon Chandelure has a chance in hell of outrunning is Dragonite, and Nite has Multi-Scale to halve damage...
 
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