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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

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Pocket said:
I actually love that idea! I think it has even been brought up in the Policy Review thread. The only issue is that it is more complicated than Aldaron's proposal, since we are now banning a combination of Drizzle and specific Pokemon, but the difference is negligible. This proves to be a good alternative for Rain that passes Phase 2. I will go edit this into the OP of my proposal thread! Thanks, Lightning Tiger!

I hope you can now better appreciate this approach, LTiger. Please take a look and contribute to the thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85113
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The idea is bad.

It's one thing to say "Two abilities are broken together" It's another thing to say "Two abilities are broken together on 6 pokemon so we stopped 6 pokemon from being used on a team where the other ability is present, and left everyone else with that ability allowable to use with the other ability."

Combination restriction of abilities I can get, that restriction based on specific pokemon? This is getting too much.

I still say 6 pokemon is nothing in the grand scheme of things.
 
Demo-Kun said:
Minor question regarding special permission applications.

Would we hear back if we were denied through PM or would they not respond at all or something?
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EDIT: Where the hell did my post go?! Grr, rewriting...

You'll probably find out tomorrow when the voting thread is posted. If you made it, you'll be on the list. I don't think that the staff would send everyone PMs. They're pretty busy.
 
agreeing with the above poster!machamp doesn't suck at all...he is a very good ou pokemon as a lot of people know...stab dynamicpunch coming of of a 130 attck stat is a very good reason to use him and the reason why he is so frustrating to face...
 
Lightning Tiger said:
Then why not start with aldarons, why does aldarons have to be the last resort?, it could be the first one done.
I would rather not allow Kingdra or Ludicolo or Kabutops to be used with Drizzle than to ban them, then you can still let those other pokes like Floatzel or whatever to be used with Drizzle if people want. And also people would still be able to use the those 3 (kingdra, or Kabutops or Ludicolo) on regular old rain dance teams.

You say its unfair to limit the capacity of Floatzel or whoever to keep those guys who are broken in drizzle. Well there you go, they are not broken with just rain dance, and floatzel and those other dudes can still benefit from drizzle.
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I'll have to go with those who've said that combination Pokemon+ability bans on one team are a bit too much, as are things like not allowing Kingdra with SwSw. This kind of thing is essentially not large enough (as Aldaron's proposal is) to draw any form of dictinction between it and say Chandelure+Shadow Tag, or limit any number of possibilities. Personally I still have doubts about Aldaron's proposal itself for similar reasons, but in any case, things like these would only be decided once a few stages of Pocket's proposal have been undertaken and we have much more experience on the issue, so I don't want to eliminate any possibilities. One of the main benefits of Pocket's proposal is that everything in the later stages is open to discussion as we go along, making it very flexible and for things like the proposed "cap" on number of banned pokes to be decided upon by the community after dicussion, not immediately - which is in fact a major benefit.

To those who may think Pocket's proposal is not an option due to the large amount of time it may take, I urge you to read my edit here.
 
Benlisted said:
I'll have to go with those who've said that combination Pokemon+ability bans on one team are a bit too much, as are things like not allowing Kingdra with SwSw. This kind of thing is essentially not large enough (as Aldaron's proposal is) to draw any form of dictinction between it and say Chandelure+Shadow Tag, or limit any number of possibilities. Personally I still have doubts about Aldaron's proposal itself for similar reasons, but in any case, things like these would only be decided once a few stages of Pocket's proposal have been undertaken and we have much more experience on the issue, so I don't want to eliminate any possibilities. One of the main benefits of Pocket's proposal is that everything in the later stages is open to discussion as we go along, making it very flexible and for things like the proposed "cap" on number of banned pokes to be decided upon by the community after dicussion, not immediately - which is in fact a major benefit.

To those who may think Pocket's proposal is not an option due to the large amount of time it may take, I urge you to read my edit here.
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We could also make it go faster by not making the nomination and voting phases a week long each. IMO thats way too long and unneseccary
 
Ok after battling for a little bit and listening to the arugements on the nominations page I decided to do my own little counter argument.

Reuniclus' two most broken sets are it's CM set and it's TR set. People have been arguing that these two sets are impossible to stop when you combine the coverage of it's moves with it's massive bulk. I'll discuss these two sets in as much depth as I can. If you feel I'm wrong you can correct me where you feel it needs to be corrected. If you feel this is right use this in your arguments to keep Reuniclus OU.

The Calm Mind set is extremely effective at taking on stall. Reuniclus' secondary ability Magic Guard prevents Reuniclus from taking passive damage. This means things like Stealth Rock and Toxic will not effect Reuniclus at all. This combined with it's bulk and recover make it an extremely effective stall killer. It also has the bulk to take anything other than extremely powerful or SE moves. Meaning it can set up in the face of adversity and power though alot of what gets thrown at it.

That said it's not difficult to beat the CM set so long as you know what your doing. One of the most major problems of the CM set is that it has a 4 moveslot syndrome. It's forced to choose between Focus Blast and Shadow Ball. Focus Blast is generally the preferred option on the CM set because it takes care of alot more prevalent threats than Shadow Ball. Things like Tyranitar and Scizor are that much easier to break through with Focus Blast who could otherwise comepletly wall the set and eventually take it with their respective SE stab moves. Therefore Focus Blast is the preferred option however, it also gives you a rather potent counter in Latias. Without Shadow Ball, Latias and any other bulky psychic type can break this set by setting up right along side it with Calm Mind or trick it a scarf to cripple it. Having to choose between counters is a serious flaw in the CM set. Is that enough to keep it OU though? What if you had to choose between yet another move.

HP Fire is that other move. Granted it's not as useful as Focus Blast but our friendly Bug/Steel pokes can actually break though CM Reuniclus even with Focus Blast. In particular Shubarugo can be seen as a major threat with out HP Fire. It has the Special Bulk to take Focus Blast all day and night and the Atk to OHKO 252/252 Bold Reuniclus with a +0 252 Adamant Megahorn. That may not warrant a moveslot for HP Fire simply because it's not popular but then you'd have to consider one of the most popular pokes in the metagame being a major threat to Reuniclus even if it did have Focus Blast. Granted Scizor doesn't have the Special Bulk to continuously take Focus Blasts all day but what it does have is CB Bug bite deals 99.1% - 116.5% to that very same Reuniclus. One of the most popular pokes in the game can be seen as a threat to Reuniclus without HP Fire. That might just warrant a moveslot.

Coming from someone who uses the CM set I can say that it's extremely potent and does its job extremely well. However, the 4 moveslot syndrome can mean the difference between getting swept and winning a battle. It doesn't feel broken simply because with a little bit of playing around against Reuniclus your battle against it becomes that much easier.

The Trick Room set is a bit (Forgive the pun) trickier. Unlike the CM set this doesn't have a 4 moveslot syndrome. Simply by forgoing Recover you could put both Focus Blast and Shadow Ball in the same set. Not only that but with Trick Room and Reuniclus' low speed it could potentially break offensive teams. However, like the CM set this set can really be broken either. If you actually think about it for exactly one of the reasons why people proclaim the CM set is broken is what could potentially make the TR set beatable.

The Trick Room set forgoes bulk for raw power. This can be seen as a weakness. Slow powerful things like Shubarugo "Outspeed" Reuniclus under the Trick Room and break it with powerful moves capable of taking it out where they would fail against the CM set. Not only that but less bulk means that Reuniclus is much more susceptible to Priority. You could also outstall the Trick Room itself rather easily however I wouldn't recommend this because with Reuniclus' power it could potentially take out or cripple quite a few pokes on your side before trick room ends. With powerful enough pokes and priority you could potentially break the Reuniclus before it has a chance to cripple you.

When we're talking about priority it's rather easy to point at Scizor's Bullet Punch. 252 Choice Band Adamant Bullet Punch does 48.3 - 57.3%. A rather high chance at a 2HKO. When you consider that 252/252 Bold takes 33.3 - 39.2% you see that there's quite a difference in bulk between the Trick Room set and the Calm Mind set respectively. That can make a major difference when Facing a Trick Room set.

Conclusion: First off let me say that if it wasn't totally obvious at this point I was only using the most popular scenarios. However, consider this. When I first saw that Reuniclus was being nominated for uber I had absolutely no knowledge of the facts and opinions of others. I just saw it as my most fav 5th gen being nominated for a reason I didn't like. Now I have more knowledge of the facts and have seen that on paper there's no reason why Reuniclus shouldn't be nominated for uber. However, with just a little bit of asking around and research I managed to make this. I never make these kinds of post and I've never really gotten into suspects until just now. If something is breaking your team and you right away are saying uber you need to do much more extensive testing instead of just being ban happy because you finally banned an ability. Do more research before you get all ban happy. You may find a major counter that could mean the difference between something being banned and staying in ou.

Notice: Even though I took the time to write this I am on the fence about Reuniclus being uber. It's my favorite 5th gen and I dont want it to go away but while doing research it was so incredebly difficult to find something that could actually take it's attacks and ohko back. I was actually a little depressed. It was only in asking around for other peoples opinions and statistics that I managed to make this. Just know that I am neutral in this.
 
Lamppost said:
We could also make it go faster by not making the nomination and voting phases a week long each. IMO thats way too long and unneseccary
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Yeah this is an option if you want to do so. Idk where to discuss it. It would also go well with Pocket's proposal especially if it reaches a third or so stage, to lessen the time it would take.
 
Just a clarification question. As long as Excadrill doesn't get a supermajority this round, he'll still be around next round right? Because if I remember correctly, it didn't even get a majority last round.
 
Too lazy to post a giant post but from personal experience, CM Latias can't beat Rankurusu because of Psycho Shock. Even if Latias has Roar, it loses to last Pokemon Rank.
 
supermarth64 said:
Too lazy to post a giant post but from personal experience, CM Latias can't beat Rankurusu because of Psycho Shock. Even if Latias has Roar, it loses to last Pokemon Rank.
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Ya if they cary psycho shock it beats latias, but most carry psychic i've really only seen a few with psycho shock. Psychic is the better option since gliscor is around.
 
supermarth64 said:
Too lazy to post a giant post but from personal experience, CM Latias can't beat Rankurusu because of Psycho Shock. Even if Latias has Roar, it loses to last Pokemon Rank.
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That's true but Psychic is the preferred option for being able to beat Roobushin. Also Latias isn't limited to just CM. It can also Trick which could cripple Reuniclus to the point of uselessness.
 
Alright, I'm seeing a solution here. If the problem is that every Y has the potential to be uber if you ban X, then ban the whole alphabet and when we're down to Magikarp and Hoppip maybe then everyone will be happy.
 
Lamppost said:
Ya if they cary psycho shock it beats latias, but most carry psychic i've really only seen a few with psycho shock. Psychic is the better option since gliscor is around.
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How so? Gliscor still goes down to +6 Psycho Shock.

That's true but Psychic is the preferred option for being able to beat Roobushin. Also Latias isn't limited to just CM. It can also Trick which could cripple Reuniclus to the point of uselessness.
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You still beat Roobushin 1 on 1.
 
@PK Gaming

Or you could just stick to the +0 Psychic which 2HKOs.

@Kingtrace

I don't think Slippery Slope can ever truly get beyond things that are only slightly broken but we are entering one now. However, I feel this is to be expected. 5th gen is still very young and the metagame is in a state of chaos. We're slowly starting to lose sense of the truly broken things in the midst of all this confusion. Once we get the most major stuff out of the way the metagame should start to calm down a bit and it should be easier to differenciate the stuff that needs to be banned from the stuff that's not so broken during this time. Otherwise the metagame could be crippled quite badly.
 
I doubt dory will escape super majority TBH.
So many nominate him and a lot that get 1400 CRE which can vote nominate him too (which means dory has like 70 % chance to be banned)
Also last round hes twice as much as Latios get vote. Now everyone see how dory is too much at least from my perspective.)
yeah rain is the metagame alongside sand but Dory shall always remain as the most mind infesting poke in my experience in gen 5 meta

*wouldnt it be funny to find a pokemon you can find about 1/15 playthrough of the game which you can catch at level 12 and have 508 base stats being Uber ?
 
kingtrace said:
If you're running PS then Roobushin has a chance to use Payback. Granted, with good defense and recover it won't do too much, but that's what crits are for. XD
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Roobushin is faster than Rank, meaning Payback does shit damage, which you can recover off easily. Rank easily wins this matchup.
 
IcyMan28 said:
So you don't want to deal with it...big deal. The viable users of OHKO moves are few and far between regardless, and give up a slot that could arguably be given to a coverage move or otherwise. Your time is not being wasted by anyone other than yourself, as you aren't really presenting any serious arguments other than "they irritate me" for me to counter.
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They don't just 'irritate' one person, they 'irritate' the entire playerbase. Let's not forget that most of the Pokemon that learn these moves are bulky, which means you can just pile up on defensive EVs and simply spam these moves. To conserve PP and stay in the match longer, there's even Resttalk. Smeargle and Articuno both learn Mind Reader and can make their OHKO move hit the next turn, regardless of what you do. 30% 'bad' for this game, but just enough that I can turn my Walrein or Suicune into a living cannon and not care about your free turns. So basically, this is what the metagame would look like: Suicune on every team. Rest/Sleep Talk/Roar/Sheer Cold. GG to whoever gets lucky.

Actually, I sure am glad we banned Inconsistent as quickly as it did because game-breaking luck elements like both the aforementioned ability and the above are exactly the kind of thing we don't want. Simply put, we have not encountered anything like this in competitive Pokemon because most people have already disdained it and preemptively banned it. Competitive Pokemon probably isn't ever going to progress to a point where losing a Pokemon on a 30% chance is justifiable, especially in a strategy game based on a team of six with so many luck elements already present.
 
Taunt means you don't get +6
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Does it really matter? What is Gliscor doing to you? Psycho Shock still does a healthy chunk of damage (32.3% - 38.5%) and Gliscor is barely hurting you back with EQ. Taunt Gliscor is pretty rare anyway.

I'd rather have the ability beat CM+3 attacks Latias with Psycho Shock.
 
SJCrew said:
They don't just 'irritate' one person, they 'irritate' the entire playerbase. Let's not forget that most of the Pokemon that learn these moves are bulky, which means you can just pile up on defensive EVs and simply spam these moves. To conserve PP and stay in the match longer, there's even Resttalk. Smeargle and Articuno both learn Mind Reader and can make their OHKO move hit the next turn, regardless of what you do. 30% 'bad' for this game, but just enough that I can turn my Walrein or Suicune into a living cannon and not care about your free turns. So basically, this is what the metagame would look like: Suicune on every team. Rest/Sleep Talk/Roar/Sheer Cold. GG to whoever gets lucky.

Actually, I sure am glad we banned Inconsistent as quickly as it did because game-breaking luck elements like both the aforementioned ability and the above are exactly the kind of thing we don't want. Simply put, we have not encountered anything like this in competitive Pokemon because most people have already disdained it and preemptively banned it. Competitive Pokemon probably isn't ever going to progress to a point where losing a Pokemon on a 30% chance is justifiable, especially in a strategy game based on a team of six with so many luck elements already present.
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I think you slightly overestimate the potency of those "strategies", if they can be defined thus. OHKO in particular is horribly unreliable. Just to almost 'accept' that we subjectively ban in accordance to what the general concensus wants, just saying those attributes contribute to a more luck-based metagame is almost definitely enough to warrant a ban. The same logic can be applied another entity with similar characteristics, like species cause. Almost every application of this is universal.

Not aimed at you, but similarly any strategy not based on almost alll luck (subjective at best, due to the former being truly non-existant) can not have the same argument be made. There is definitely a distinction. That which ties in on relative power and/or effectiveness, again the former being subjective, makes of itself a more complex ban; more balanced reasoning being required. So in general, people should go beyond "it's overpowered" or "it's detrimental"; into regard over statement almost, because that is how the suspect system works.
 
JSND said:
I doubt dory will escape super majority TBH.
So many nominate him and a lot that get 1400 CRE which can vote nominate him too (which means dory has like 70 % chance to be banned)
Also last round hes twice as much as Latios get vote. Now everyone see how dory is too much at least from my perspective.)
yeah rain is the metagame alongside sand but Dory shall always remain as the most mind infesting poke in my experience in gen 5 meta

*wouldnt it be funny to find a pokemon you can find about 1/15 playthrough of the game which you can catch at level 12 and have 508 base stats being Uber ?
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I certainly hope you're wrong. I realize that Excadrill's going to get banned eventually but I'm hoping I get at least one more round with my favorite Gen 5 pokemon. I certainly hope that if he gets a majority, it's just that, and he'll still be around next round.
 
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