Because they're both broken. The voters have the intelligence to distinguish between Manaphy and Swift Swimmers.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
- Thread starter Philip7086
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I have faced more rain teams without Manaphy than with. They're still broken.
The whole point of the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban was to balance rain, but not remove it.
You remove Manaphy, you remove easily the best of the Rain Sweepers. If you remove the best of ANYTHING, you severely hinder the playstyle. If you hinder the playstyle, that might mean Rain isn't broken anymore with or without Swift Swim.
Knocking out EVERYTHING Rain would have in a single blow without getting rid of the most broken part first and seeing how it does with what's left is absolutely idiotic.
You remove Manaphy, you remove easily the best of the Rain Sweepers. If you remove the best of ANYTHING, you severely hinder the playstyle. If you hinder the playstyle, that might mean Rain isn't broken anymore with or without Swift Swim.
Knocking out EVERYTHING Rain would have in a single blow without getting rid of the most broken part first and seeing how it does with what's left is absolutely idiotic.
The most broken part of Rain is the fact that it's permanent. If we'd deduced that earlier, then there'd be literally no reason to remove anything at all besides Drizzle.
Once more abilities start to come in from the Dream World, I imagine we're probably going to take the same route and start banning Pokemon/ability combos instead of the Pokemon. I have no idea how it even got this far, but it's too late to turn back now.
Once more abilities start to come in from the Dream World, I imagine we're probably going to take the same route and start banning Pokemon/ability combos instead of the Pokemon. I have no idea how it even got this far, but it's too late to turn back now.
Except that rain teams without Manaphy are STILL BROKEN, as I just said.
I'd beg to differ on that.
At least nothing else in rain can beat the things that wall it, unlike Manaphy, that turns common walls into set-up fodder.
Every other Rain sweeper is infinitely more manageable than Manaphy is.
20 and 30 are both greater than 10. The fact that 30 is greater than 20 does not mean that 20 is not greater than 10. We can already see that rain without Manaphy is broken. It being banned won't change the quality of the teams that weren't using it to begin with.
Thank god the voters did the right thing. I really hope Dory and Latios aren't nominated AGAIN next round, and I can't express how glad I am that Reuniclus is staying.
I'm somewhat surprised that Deoxys-N wasn't brought down, but Manaphy getting the boot was expected. This new metagame should be interesting. Drizzle won't be broken if Swift swimmers can't abuse it (in my opinion at least), and I don't really see any new suspects that could be nominated (except maybe Landlos, who wasn't tested this time around for mechanical reasons).
I'm somewhat surprised that Deoxys-N wasn't brought down, but Manaphy getting the boot was expected. This new metagame should be interesting. Drizzle won't be broken if Swift swimmers can't abuse it (in my opinion at least), and I don't really see any new suspects that could be nominated (except maybe Landlos, who wasn't tested this time around for mechanical reasons).
I really expected Latios to hit 50% this time since everyone was bitching about the Specs set. I wonder if the problem is no one is using him right or something.
The problem was that everyone who was bitching had no voting rights.
Or maybe they didn't deem it broken because it isn't broken. You can't just automatically assume that they didn't come across it, because Latios is one of those pokemon that really is just good enough to be one of the most used pokemon. Moreover, it was common on Rain teams every now and then from what I remember, and did decently against them too.
Thank god Excadrill and Reuniclus didn't get banned. I was at least expecting Excadrill to at least get a simple majority so I was pleasantly surprised
Wow, these latios arguments are fucking laughable. Sure, it's powerful enough to destroy unprepared teams but it's really not THAT good.
Let's see... You can't outspeed it because it holds a scarf, you can't take it's attacks because it has specs and latios users ALWAYS predict perfectly, you can't damage it because it can recover off the damage with it's high speed, You can't kill it with priority because you never have any when latios shows up, you can't switch tyranitar into a specs hp fire aimed at ferrothorn and kill with pursuit because it will switch to draco meteor and kill you, then run through your team with its amazing moveset of DM/dragon pulse/hp fire/surf/ice beam/thunderbolt/psycho shock/recover/refresh.
Once you work out what kind of set it runs, it becomes much easier to counter. Hydreigon is arguably better than latios too.
No pursuit weakness
Usually runs scarf with modest (383 special attack)
STAB dark pulse can flinch
U-turn
Immune to psychic makes switching in easier
Physically bulkier
Gets fire blast
Gets cheer up (what does latios have?)
Can go mixed
Latios is:
Faster
Has slightly higher special attack (largely moot)
Resists mach punch
Has recover
Has psychic typing and STAB psycho shock for mixed attacking
If hydreigon were a gen 4 uber, how many of you would be scrambling to ban it as well? It's a fast dragon type with a powerful draco meteor! We can't have those in OU!!
Let's see... You can't outspeed it because it holds a scarf, you can't take it's attacks because it has specs and latios users ALWAYS predict perfectly, you can't damage it because it can recover off the damage with it's high speed, You can't kill it with priority because you never have any when latios shows up, you can't switch tyranitar into a specs hp fire aimed at ferrothorn and kill with pursuit because it will switch to draco meteor and kill you, then run through your team with its amazing moveset of DM/dragon pulse/hp fire/surf/ice beam/thunderbolt/psycho shock/recover/refresh.
Once you work out what kind of set it runs, it becomes much easier to counter. Hydreigon is arguably better than latios too.
No pursuit weakness
Usually runs scarf with modest (383 special attack)
STAB dark pulse can flinch
U-turn
Immune to psychic makes switching in easier
Physically bulkier
Gets fire blast
Gets cheer up (what does latios have?)
Can go mixed
Latios is:
Faster
Has slightly higher special attack (largely moot)
Resists mach punch
Has recover
Has psychic typing and STAB psycho shock for mixed attacking
If hydreigon were a gen 4 uber, how many of you would be scrambling to ban it as well? It's a fast dragon type with a powerful draco meteor! We can't have those in OU!!
I agree that Latios is manageable but you are underselling it.
Fighting resist is much more relevant this gen, and the speed is significant given that Latios outspeeds at least 10 threats that Sazandora doesn't (Salamence, Zapdos, Garchomp, Terrakion, Virizion, Landlos, Genosect, Urugamosu, Kojondo, Jirachi), and ties with one or two more.
Recover is huge, as it allows it to run a LO + 3 Attacks set for longer than Sazandora, and it has access to both Calm Mind and Dragon Dance over Sazandora's measly Cheer Up.
Fighting resist is much more relevant this gen, and the speed is significant given that Latios outspeeds at least 10 threats that Sazandora doesn't (Salamence, Zapdos, Garchomp, Terrakion, Virizion, Landlos, Genosect, Urugamosu, Kojondo, Jirachi), and ties with one or two more.
Recover is huge, as it allows it to run a LO + 3 Attacks set for longer than Sazandora, and it has access to both Calm Mind and Dragon Dance over Sazandora's measly Cheer Up.
Prediction: sandstorm will be the most used weather, stall in general will rise to the occasion in a big way (including rain stall), burungeru usage will skyrocket, permanent sun will be slightly more popular, entry hazards will play a more central role, and latios alone will get a majority Uber vote.
Edit: This is my 150th post! One post for every pokemon!
...what do you mean there are more?
Edit: This is my 150th post! One post for every pokemon!
...what do you mean there are more?
Big sigh of relief to see that the Deoxys-N bandwagon had no effect on the actual voters. It appears that mostly the same pool that wanted him Uber last time maintain their judgment. I applaud them. I don't think there was one person who didn't see Manaphy coming, even if they disagreed.
I'm torn between double-genie in Rain and Landlos testing this round. But I see way too many Sand teams as it is, so I'd imagine double-genie would be a more interesting endeavor. I'm not budging on the idea of Latios being broken though, and I think people are going to start to come around this time upon observing that having less things to outspeed and kill it will shed light on an obvious discrepancy between his performance and the average OU's.
I'm torn between double-genie in Rain and Landlos testing this round. But I see way too many Sand teams as it is, so I'd imagine double-genie would be a more interesting endeavor. I'm not budging on the idea of Latios being broken though, and I think people are going to start to come around this time upon observing that having less things to outspeed and kill it will shed light on an obvious discrepancy between his performance and the average OU's.
RIGHT another meta with doryuuzu and latios and banning manaphy which i nearly never see. Not too bad in fact it could be very very fun. Whos with me that this meta will be better ? im going to make rain water spam team to test its effectiveness now.
Latios is faster
Latios is more specially bulky
Layios has CM
Latis has thunderbolt
Latios has Grass knot
Latios has TRICK
As a specs sazan has safe switch in while Latios dont have ANY even bliss
Latios is faster
Latios is more specially bulky
Layios has CM
Latis has thunderbolt
Latios has Grass knot
Latios has TRICK
As a specs sazan has safe switch in while Latios dont have ANY even bliss
Double genie in Rain will be interesting for sure, but they will still have issues against Latias/Latios (who can take a hit and strike back), various scarfers, and Starmie, who is equally (if not more) deadly in rain.
Another point for the genies is that they have priority Rain Dance, making them useful on RD teams seeking to use Swift Swimmers (mainly Tornelos, who isn't exactly suffering from 4 moveslot syndrome).
As far as Latios...Rain teams only really had 3 pokemon outrunning it. There are still various Scarfers that give it issues and dealing with it will remain largely the same. In my opinion it is manageable, but that remains to be seen since it is a new metagame and all.
Don't forget one of the most annoying aspects he has trick! So switching in can be rather difficult. Allowing him to cripple many of his threats with trick since they are mostly physical that can use pursuit, that is if Latios doesn't opt for complete offensive coverage which he can. Moreover, Psycho-shock is a great addition to Latios as it means he has a way of getting around Blissey now if he doesn't opt to use trick. Besides 110 base speed IS a HUGE deal.
What's so awesome about Trick? You get one shot and if you miss your target, that's it. Plus, you lose your Specs, which kind of defeats the purpose of having it to begin with. If you're only really worried about Blissey, stick to Psycho Shock.
Latios checking Voltolos is a matter of whether or not you care about being Paralyzed or if I'm at +2. This is why I don't send anything but Ground types or already slow ass walls into Voltolos; he just priority T-waves everything.
Latias can check both if she's CM and they're already at half or below. If both conditions aren't met, they will punish her the same way they do Latios.
Latios can't do shit to Tornelos. If I'm running Specs, he dies to Hurricane after Rocks (87% - 103%). If I'm running LO, I will U-turn off of his face and into Nattorei. Or if he's taken any damage at all, I'll just attack with my insane LO Hurricane anyway. Risk-free because permanent Rain is up (like you guys wanted it!) and he can't afford to predict with Trick.
Latios checking Voltolos is a matter of whether or not you care about being Paralyzed or if I'm at +2. This is why I don't send anything but Ground types or already slow ass walls into Voltolos; he just priority T-waves everything.
Latias can check both if she's CM and they're already at half or below. If both conditions aren't met, they will punish her the same way they do Latios.
I was generally referring to Scarf versions of the Lati twins, who can Thunderbolt/Thunder. Tornelos is otherwise a definite threat, offensive Flying as a great type and its a shame isn't more widespread. And for the record, I'm a proponent of Drizzle being banned, and if the SwSwers prove unbroken this round (which is what will happen), I will support a Drizzle ban.
The two also run into issues with Tyranitar, who they need to outpredict perfectly to land a fighting attack on, otherwise it'll just come in and change the weather before switching out.
Finally, it is more difficult to argue that these pokemon make using Politoed worth it. The Swift Swimmers are by definition the most efficient users of rain - the attackers left over (LO Starmie, Genies, Thunder-users, Rotom-W) are all less effective in general.
I'm really sad that Deoxys-N was kept in Ubers. I mean i know that 150/150 offenses are all that.... but it at least deserved a fair test.
This is okay with me, since my genies practically populate entire graveyards of Tyranitar. :V
As far as I'm concerned, Deoxys-N's fair test was Deoxys-A. In order to ensure this never, ever happens again, I think the voting pool made the right decision in banning him. I know a lot of people here are about 'fair testing' and results, but the truth of the matter is, we're supposed to be all about ensuring the most competitive game of Pokemon possible. I don't think Deoxys-N would have helped the metagame any more than what we have now. Let the Ubers stay Uber.
We have two or three more bans to go before we achieve anything close to true balance, the way I see it: Drizzle, Drought, and Latios. The time will come for those three, but not now. If you all want a balanced 5th gen akin to post-Mence OU and pre-Heracross UU, then we'll need those three out of the picture first.
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