Scrafty

[PttP]

Think you could post the team if you don't mind? DD Zuru is certianley an interesting and fun idea to use.

zuru biji ttar blaziken rank scizor shouldnt be that hard to think of the right sets and i dont wanna post a rmt

to the other poster:

still havent heard an actual argument, just some lame ass posts trying to troll me only to get buttraped in response

that sir, deserves a capital q.q

Q.Q

 

[blasphemy1]

Uhh, how about we keep trolling out of the debate so we can see objectively view the truth? Bottom line is, both of them work. I got to 1287 with a Bulk Up Scrafty team, and I've used DD Scrafty as well. They are both good, if anything we should be discussing Scrafty's versatility. The bulk(y) up set handles Scarf Pokemon with ease, while the DD set can smash through walls like Hippowdon and Skarmory. As a more conservative player, I prefer the bulk up set. There is less risk involved and it can still sweep entire teams with proper support.

 

[Lucalibur]

yeah well, i still pretend on reaching 1250 with it and i want to know the ability. i am dead serious.


BU is overall more reliable while capable of reaching the same(if not better) results by abusing what he is actually made to do: suck up hits and dish out more. serious question now though: can you tell me how DD zuzu is so awesome and better then all other DD users? i still pretend on using but i cant see how the extra non-invested defenses pay off for the low speed and average atack(at best).

 

[PokéMontage]

I've used DD and BU sets and both of them were pretty effective, but I prefer Bulk Up.

Also, PttP - if that's how you react to somebody disagreeing with you over a Pokemon, then I can't imagine what kind of anger management issues you have in real life. Learn to discuss things without looking like an asshat.

 

[SJCrew]

I can see how DD Zuru might be good. I just never got around to using it due to being overly paranoid about Skarmory and such.

Bulk Up is still very effective, though, no reason to downplay that. It can also take hits and absorb status like a boss because that's what Zuru is: a motherfucking boss. DD for the stronger sweep, Bulk Up for team friendliness + stronger sweep. They don't have to be juxtaposed in such a linear argument regarding which is best.

 

[Lucalibur]

i am testing DD zuzu right now for my master and the results so far were....average. even with HJK he is lacking power at +1. i found special DD mence to be a way better DD user for my team and in general. plus zuzu without evs to take hits is just...frail. not frail in the zoroark or lucario sense but frail in the sense its not taking SE hits, something the bulk up version should be doing.


i use BU any day over DD.

 

[SlimMan]

First of all, those Pokemon have much higher attack stats and higher speed, so they don't need as many boosts to pull off a sweep. Scrafty needs at least 2 just to outspeed all Pokemon without speed modifiers. It needs 3 to outspeed all Scarf Pokemon. Obviously Scrafty is different from the others, but it is also weak to Mach Punch and its strongest STAB can cost it its life (Nattorei Protect, switch to Burungeru, etc) whereas Outrage can be spammed at +1 since it will dent even steels. Gyarados isn't that great of a DDer imo, and DD in general just isn't that great these days.

Scrafty has: Rest + Shed Skin, Dark STAB, special bulk, and more resistances (the weakness to fighting hurts, though). That's pretty big. Toxic is not a bad way of bringing down Conkeldurr, and Toxic Spikes might be set up so don't shrug it off as if it never occurs. Rest + Shed Skin along with his special bulk really help. He can survive a Draco Meteor from Specs Latios (unlike Conkeldurr) and then maybe get a free Bulk Up. There are a lot of instances like this that you pick up on when playing with Scrafty that go unnoticed.

1) Why on earth would you have a Scrafty spamming HJK? The point in using Scrafty is that it has some bulk, and I use Drain Punch on my DD one. I don't worry about the fact that I don't OHKO things. Because very few things can OHKO me. So I just recover off some damage and kill them the second turn. Besides, by your logic Blaziken sucks because its strongest STAB is HJK. Seriously?

2) In this metagame, Gyara's best set is the defensive one, IMO.

3) Toxic is a terrible way of bringing down Conkledurr. You give it a free +1 boost, and it's Lefties slow down its death. NEVER status a Conkledurr.

4) If he survives a Specs Latios Draco Meteor, why the hell would you Bulk Up? Even at -2, the next hit will kill him. The only thing to do there is Rest and stall out Latios or Crunch and KO Latios. If you Bulk Up, you die next turn. Simple as that.

 

[Jaroda]

1)
3) Toxic is a terrible way of bringing down Conkledurr. You give it a free +1 boost, and it's Lefties slow down its death. NEVER status a Conkledurr.
QUOTE]
Well, you can put it to sleep, and freeze is obviously ok. But yeah, status is generally a bad idea. I have been Toxic stalled by a double Protect using Ferrothorn and Jellicent before, but really, that's more luck than reliable.

 

[SlimMan]

Uhh, how about we keep trolling out of the debate so we can see objectively view the truth? Bottom line is, both of them work. I got to 1287 with a Bulk Up Scrafty team, and I've used DD Scrafty as well. They are both good, if anything we should be discussing Scrafty's versatility. The bulk(y) up set handles Scarf Pokemon with ease, while the DD set can smash through walls like Hippowdon and Skarmory. As a more conservative player, I prefer the bulk up set. There is less risk involved and it can still sweep entire teams with proper support.

I agree with this post.

I don't really like Bulk Up, because on my teams, Roob would be better. But I also realize that there are teams where STAB Crunch or extra special bulk would be more important.

I use the DD set more simply because there's really nothing to directly out-class it, it being so different from all the other DD'ers, IMO. As far as which is better, it really depends against the team that you're facing.

3) Toxic is a terrible way of bringing down Conkledurr. You give it a free +1 boost, and it's Lefties slow down its death. NEVER status a Conkledurr.

Well, you can put it to sleep, and freeze is obviously ok. But yeah, status is generally a bad idea. I have been Toxic stalled by a double Protect using Ferrothorn and Jellicent before, but really, that's more luck than reliable.

It's true that Protect + Toxic can ruin things like Conkledurr, but I would still never want to risk giving it the Guts boost.

... Wait, freeze is ok? I mean, freeze is amazing, but reliably freezing something is impossible.

That Ferrothorn you talked about... why would anyone leave a Ferrothorn in on a Roob?

 

[Jaroda]

That Ferrothorn you talked about... why would anyone leave a Ferrothorn in on a Roob?

The enemy had Toxic Spikes and it went something like this.

• Switch in on Ferro during Spikes. I expected a switch so I used Bulk Up.
• Bastard actually used Leech Seed instead. I take poison and seed damage, mitigated by leftovers.
• I attack this time, but he protects. more poison and leech damage.
• Switches to Jellicent, immune to Drain Punch. This was before Team Preview, didn't know he had it.
• Protected AGAIN while I used Stone Edge
• Switched back to Ferro taking not much from Stone Edge.

At that point I anticipated Protect again, which he did, and switched out. I was only at around 12% health or so at that point.

 

[SlimMan]

^^^
That makes more sense. Roob can't OHKO Ferro without any boosts, so their move made sense.

I thought you meant that your opponent just didn't switch out and I was like "wuuuuuut"

 

[Jaroda]

Guts was activated from switching in though. I probably could have killed it if it wasn't a max/max version but who knows. I entirely predicted a switch, since most do.

 

[SlimMan]

Guts was activated from switching in though. I probably could have killed it if it wasn't a max/max version but who knows. I entirely predicted a switch, since most do.

I forgot about Guts lawl.

Getting back to Zuru, Guts > Shed Skin IMO.

 

[blasphemy1]

1) Why on earth would you have a Scrafty spamming HJK? The point in using Scrafty is that it has some bulk, and I use Drain Punch on my DD one. I don't worry about the fact that I don't OHKO things. Because very few things can OHKO me. So I just recover off some damage and kill them the second turn. Besides, by your logic Blaziken sucks because its strongest STAB is HJK. Seriously?

2) In this metagame, Gyara's best set is the defensive one, IMO.

3) Toxic is a terrible way of bringing down Conkledurr. You give it a free +1 boost, and it's Lefties slow down its death. NEVER status a Conkledurr.

4) If he survives a Specs Latios Draco Meteor, why the hell would you Bulk Up? Even at -2, the next hit will kill him. The only thing to do there is Rest and stall out Latios or Crunch and KO Latios. If you Bulk Up, you die next turn. Simple as that.

1) So... you run Hi Jump Kick / Drain Punch / Crunch / DD? That just doesn't seem very effective to me. You lose to a few key Pokemon. Salamence, Dragonite, Gliscor, Thundurus, along with the stuff like Parasect (rain stall), Venusaur, and Amoonguss. It seems like Ice Punch or Stone Edge would be better instead of Drain Punch. I've never tried Drain Punch though, so I can't attest to its effectiveness but I do know Ice Punch comes in handy quite often.

2) Yes, I agree with this point. Regardless, it's not about looking into the Pokemon, it's about comparing the effectiveness of each comparable set. Instead of trying to ask yourself which is Gyarados' best set, bulky or DD, you should be asking if DD Gyarados is better than DD Scrafty, which in some cases it is.

3) I do it all of the time and I never have trouble. Bad poison takes it down super quickly and with fighting resists on my team it rarely can prolong its demise with Drain Punch. I love Protect btw, so I often use it on two Pokemon and switch between them.

4) I said you Rest the turn Latios attacks, leaving you at 100% and Latios at -2. If you wake up due to Shed Skin, you can use Bulk Up since they will probably switch out.

 

[Lucalibur]

Drain punch is ONLY effective on the bulk up set. even with HJK he got atack problems unless he can reach +2 and no way in hell you are getting +2 atack in a DD set. agreeing with ice punch though, its a really good move to have around since it kill most dragons that resist fighting(90% of them) and gyara is nowhere to be found.


skarmory and hippo still wall you to death and just roar you away regardless of the set though.

 

[blasphemy1]

You do a hell of a lot more with +1 Life Orb Hi Jump Kick, though. It's an easy 2HKO and if something that threatens them comes in then there's not much they can do about it other than being death fodder.

 

[Lucalibur]

what happens all the time. he either got something on the field any zuzu set can beat or switch something the BU set beats but the DD dont(or that beats all zuzu sets). there is nothing the DD set beat that the BU set doesnt. why use DD zuzu over any other DD user? i found no reason to do so. the BU set is just plain superior.


HJK is kinda poor on the BU set anyway. you cant afford to lose 50% hp for a bit of extra power(considering the fact zuzu is easily capable of getting at +2 on the BU set).

 

[SlimMan]

1) So... you run Hi Jump Kick / Drain Punch / Crunch / DD? That just doesn't seem very effective to me. You lose to a few key Pokemon. Salamence, Dragonite, Gliscor, Thundurus, along with the stuff like Parasect (rain stall), Venusaur, and Amoonguss. It seems like Ice Punch or Stone Edge would be better instead of Drain Punch. I've never tried Drain Punch though, so I can't attest to its effectiveness but I do know Ice Punch comes in handy quite often.

2) Yes, I agree with this point. Regardless, it's not about looking into the Pokemon, it's about comparing the effectiveness of each comparable set. Instead of trying to ask yourself which is Gyarados' best set, bulky or DD, you should be asking if DD Gyarados is better than DD Scrafty, which in some cases it is.

3) I do it all of the time and I never have trouble. Bad poison takes it down super quickly and with fighting resists on my team it rarely can prolong its demise with Drain Punch. I love Protect btw, so I often use it on two Pokemon and switch between them.

4) I said you Rest the turn Latios attacks, leaving you at 100% and Latios at -2. If you wake up due to Shed Skin, you can use Bulk Up since they will probably switch out.

1) I run Drain Punch over HJK and although the power loss would seem crippling I use my Zuru in a strange way and somehow it works for me.

2) I agree that other DD'ers can sometimes be better than Scrafty. But I would say that his ability and bulk sort of set him apart. Besides, other BU'ers can sometimes be better than BU Scrafty. It goes both ways.

3) If it works for your team, go for it. I don't do that because it doesn't work for my (or most people's) strategy. "Whatever floats your boat".

4) You said "He can survive a Draco Meteor from Specs Latios and maybe get a Bulk Up". I don't see the word Rest anywhere in there. Unless I'm looking at the wrong post?

Drain punch is ONLY effective on the bulk up set. even with HJK he got atack problems unless he can reach +2 and no way in hell you are getting +2 atack in a DD set. agreeing with ice punch though, its a really good move to have around since it kill most dragons that resist fighting(90% of them) and gyara is nowhere to be found.

Based on this, I now know that you theorymonned your argument up and have never used a DD set.

skarmory and hippo still wall you to death and just roar you away regardless of the set though.

true

 

[Lucalibur]

actually no. i did exactly like the guy said: reached 1250(below 1000 actually) on the PO ladder(smogon server duh) with DD zuzu on team. the exactly same set he posted(Bar the ability he forgot to give so i just picked shed skin). i found him to lack power even with HJK. maybe i was using it wrong? should i have sticked with LO instead?(lol LO zuzu) if you want i can go there again and use LO instead although i doubt it will do anything but kill him faster.


i suppose i did got carried away saying HJK is only a bit of extra power though. i just think the BU set can handle most stuff with DP instead.

 

[SlimMan]

what happens all the time. he either got something on the field any zuzu set can beat or switch something the BU set beats but the DD dont(or that beats all zuzu sets). there is nothing the DD set beat that the BU set doesnt. why use DD zuzu over any other DD user? i found no reason to do so. the BU set is just plain superior.

Here is one example of something DD beats that BU doesn't. Tornelos.
Even if you run Max HP/Max SpD, Tornelos still OHKOes you with Hurricane.
Tornelos is somewhat rare, but the point still stands that you're wrong.

Why use DD Zuru over other DD'ers? Because it has better abilities than other DD'ers. Because it has better bulk than other DD'ers.

The BU set is not "plain superior"

 

[LeviLamprey]

Bulk Up can be used by lots of good Fighting-types, but DD is a relatively rare move unique to Zuke amongst his Fighting brethren. His 105/105 defenses help a lot too.

 

[SlimMan]

Bulk Up can be used by lots of good Fighting-types, but DD is a relatively rare move unique to Zuke amongst his Fighting brethren. His 105/105 defenses help a lot too.

115/115

edit: I gotta go Lucalibur, we'll have to finish this another time. But I want you to think about something. You say that other DD'ers outclass Zuru. BU Zuru faces the same problems. Why should I use BU Zuru over other BU users? What does it have?

 

[LeviLamprey]

*facepalm*

 

[Lucalibur]

he got better bulky? yes. but its still 2hkoed by most moves coming from a decent atack stat without investiment on his defenses. he actually got about the same bulky as dragonite(who got way higher atack and somewhat higher speed). does he got better abilities? he got shed skin what is pretty good while shares intimidate and ES with mence. shed skin alone is no reason to run that guy over a DD nite or mence. if you are going to use him then use a bulky DD set instead, that actually works(+2 zuzu with no atack evs hit about as hard compared to max jolly at +1) cause you are abusing his overall higher defense.


i am just going to say that any set not abusing his great defensive capabilities is simply outclassed. BU, bulky DD, staller or whatever is good. max max jolly is not.



edit: most bulk up users got high defense but low special defense(or the other way around) while BU zuzu is extremely bulky on both sides. his typing is unique and allow him to wall most psychic type pokemons(they show up more then i though) and that is saying something. the single fact he is capable of being a mixed wall means he outclass most BU users who are bulky on one side and frail on the other.

 

[SlimMan]

he got better bulky? yes. but its still 2hkoed by most moves coming from a decent atack stat without investiment on his defenses.

1) So are other DD'ers
2) A lot things can OHKO or 2HKO the BU set. Get over it.

he actually got about the same bulky as dragonite(who got way higher atack and somewhat higher speed).

Dragonite out-classes DD Zuru? Well, that's fine. Cuz Roob out-classes BU Zuru.

does he got better abilities? he got shed skin what is pretty good while shares intimidate and ES with mence. shed skin alone is no reason to run that guy over a DD nite or mence. if you are going to use him then use a bulky DD set instead, that actually works(+2 zuzu with no atack evs hit harder then max jolly at +1) cause you are abusing his overall higher defense.

First of all, I can't just use ES Mence because it isn;t released, Currently, Zuru is the only pokemon with DD and ES.

Secondly, when you used a DD set, what the hell did you try to set up on? Cuz if you come in on, y'know, the right things, then +2 is not hard to get. At all.

i am just going to say that any set not abusing his great defensive capabilities is simply outclassed. BU, bulky DD, staller or whatever is good. max max jolly is not.

His defensive capabilities can be abused without running max in a defense. That's like saying SD Nattorei doesn't abuse its bulk.

The difference is not that you can't abuse his bulk, just that he doesn't have as much to abuse.

Wait, why am I even arguing this? This isn't even about EV spreads, it's about DD.

Goodnight, all. See you tomorrow.