I'd test it out if it's released, but back to Nano's post. Wouldn't Terakion handle most of those threats fairly well? He has X-Scizor/Stone Edge for Latias, Close Combat and EQ for the other ones. But to beat Latias I think he'd need a scarf and a bit of prior damage to secure a KO.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
- Start date
- Status
Out of pure curiosity, why use Tension Tyranitar if Sandstorm is a factor is countering Special Attackers with +1 Special Defense?
I suppose the lack of passive damage from sandstorm would be useful for increasing the longevity of LO sweepers and not negating Leftovers recovery. But it could also be used against Harvest mons as well. Although Ttar is at risk switching into Executor and the leaf banana dinosuar thingy pokemon because of their grass moves.
Terakion would only be able to revenge-kill, because it takes neutral damage from Hurricane and Thunderbolt, which hurt it a lot. It is also hit super-effectively by most of Lati@s' common movesets. And you really don't want to rely on revenge killing these guys, because you end up with the problem of them switching in and out constantly.
Yeah, the biggest problem I have is that if you know it's going to DM even Nattorei isn't a safe switch-in to Latios or Sazandora because it can be worn down so easily. Max Sp.Def Nattorei takes 35% min from Specs Latios DM, factoring in lefties. With Spikes on the field, that means it can only switch in on Latios once. And Nattorei itself makes it so much easier for your opponent to get those Spikes down.
And for the genies, nothing can switch in on them anyways so I usually just end up revenging with Jirachi. Against Thundurus, this usually means my scarfer gets paralyzed :(
And for the genies, nothing can switch in on them anyways so I usually just end up revenging with Jirachi. Against Thundurus, this usually means my scarfer gets paralyzed :(
Something I've been trying is Specially defensive Scizor. It can be made to survive 2 Draco Meteors and can killl on the switch with Pursuit / U-turn / Bullet Punch, because people rarely stay in if it does less than 66%.
EDIT: I haven't seen it much. People always try to counter my Lati@s with Nattorei.
EDIT: I haven't seen it much. People always try to counter my Lati@s with Nattorei.
Timid Specs Latios DM vs 352/364: 31%-37%. Factoring in Lefties would drop it to ~25%-31%. I'd say that's a moderately safe switch in, especially when you consider lefties healing on switchouts, leech seed recovery (unless you end up seeding the opponent's reuniclus or ferrothorn), and the occasional Protect.
The biggest issue I've faced in Thundurus (<3) in more ways than just one. Awesome power, coverage, Speed, etc. Pretty much impossible to wall. The other issue is that, when taking the other perspective, I can't seem to fit him in to my team because he doesn't have much defensive versatility and score consistent wins. Whatever team I make with him ends up being very hit or miss :(. I find this annoying because while the opponent is leisurely leaving scars all over my team, I can't find the comfort in creating stable teams when trying to utilize his insane potential (generally every thundurus teams I've ran into had gaping holes to something big).
On the happier side of things, Rotom-W is a top tier Pkmn in this current meta ^_^ (but he's incredibly annoying to face against though)
I know many of you might not agree, but I think there should be two suspects:
Exadril/Doryuuzu
Completely overpowered, and its set is pretty much known to all as Swords Dance/Earthquake/Rock Slide/Filler with a balloon. There are only a handful of decent switch ins after a Swords Dance (Skarmory, Gliscor, ect) and the latter can't do anything until the balloon is popped. Immune to both T-Wave and Toxic, and unbeatable in the sand. Perhaps most of this is due to the SS or Drizzle ban, but on pokemon online (which does not have this ban) it is an absolute house, and I have lost counts to the amount of 4-6/0 sweeps I've gotten. Most of the teams are sand, and the only sand teams I've seen that don't run dory run Randorosu (he is not that common though). Priority moves such as Azumaril aqua jet or infernape mach punch, ect can deal with it, but they cannot switch into an earthquake. And they can both be absorbed by my second suspect:
Latios
He is a freaking bomb with a similar issue. Very few can switch into a draco meteor, and he excellent type coverage when amazing sweeping stats. There are very few teams that do not run latios, and without a counter, you pretty much lose. With a specs/life orb, sweeping reaches its full potential. I personally like the Life orb, because by sacrificing a bit of power, you get the fourth move slot instead of trick, and the dangerous flexibility to switch moves. Team preview also helps to know how reckless to be with draco meteor. With Hp fire (on a orb), you get the ability to OHK Scizor and 2HKO Max special Defense Natteori, two very common switches into Latios.
I do not mean to rant, and although I don't have specific calcs, I would take a minute for you to realize how much the metagame rotates around these two. For dory, I think his fate may depend on how the rain neutering goes (I feel if SS and drizzle were both legal, Dory would be fine), but I do believe latios is too good for this OU.
Exadril/Doryuuzu
Completely overpowered, and its set is pretty much known to all as Swords Dance/Earthquake/Rock Slide/Filler with a balloon. There are only a handful of decent switch ins after a Swords Dance (Skarmory, Gliscor, ect) and the latter can't do anything until the balloon is popped. Immune to both T-Wave and Toxic, and unbeatable in the sand. Perhaps most of this is due to the SS or Drizzle ban, but on pokemon online (which does not have this ban) it is an absolute house, and I have lost counts to the amount of 4-6/0 sweeps I've gotten. Most of the teams are sand, and the only sand teams I've seen that don't run dory run Randorosu (he is not that common though). Priority moves such as Azumaril aqua jet or infernape mach punch, ect can deal with it, but they cannot switch into an earthquake. And they can both be absorbed by my second suspect:
Latios
He is a freaking bomb with a similar issue. Very few can switch into a draco meteor, and he excellent type coverage when amazing sweeping stats. There are very few teams that do not run latios, and without a counter, you pretty much lose. With a specs/life orb, sweeping reaches its full potential. I personally like the Life orb, because by sacrificing a bit of power, you get the fourth move slot instead of trick, and the dangerous flexibility to switch moves. Team preview also helps to know how reckless to be with draco meteor. With Hp fire (on a orb), you get the ability to OHK Scizor and 2HKO Max special Defense Natteori, two very common switches into Latios.
I do not mean to rant, and although I don't have specific calcs, I would take a minute for you to realize how much the metagame rotates around these two. For dory, I think his fate may depend on how the rain neutering goes (I feel if SS and drizzle were both legal, Dory would be fine), but I do believe latios is too good for this OU.
This. Terakion can't really counter Tornelos, since Specs Hurricane deals 313 - 369 (96.9% - 114.24%) to it, which is an OHKO about 80% of the time. Life Orb Tornelos and Voltolos also have a 1/3rd chance to OHKO Terakion with Hurricane and Thunder, respectively, with Rocks up. It should also be noted that the moves' secondary effects come in handy a lot. I've beaten up a Jirachi with Hurricane confusion and crippled a lot of people with paralysis from THunder.
While I agree that Latios is absoluteley too powerful fo OU, Doryuuzu is a different story (Randorusu is the bigger concern, but anyways...)
The problem with Doryuuzu is the inconvenience of it, not it's power. It has several "counters", so-to-speak, but they can't really switch in (the ones that are offensive/carry priority. The rest shall come later). I, however, have been playing with Doryuuzu in my SS Team (look, I've been playing with sand since early 4th Gen, I just enjoy my playing style, deal with it), for a while now, and I have to say that it isn't broken. A massive power house? Yes. A prominent threat? Of course? Hard to beat? Arquable, but is that not one of the goals of battling? To be challenged and to adapt to your surroundings? Well, it isn't easy, but quite manageable. Skarmory and Hippowdon are quite reliable and can phaze him out, while Hippowdon can KO him with EQ, and Skarmory is immune to his precious STAB and can phaze him around with Whirlwind. Gliscor and Unaware Quagsire also stop him cold, while the former has the typing to easily wall is common attacking set and able to eliminate it with EQ, Ice Fang, etc, and the latter has no problem switching in when it's at +6 and can boost it's own defenses, hit hard with Waterfall / Earthquake, and can easily pivot back with Recover. Dory also falls if you have some hazards, Mach Punch/Vaccum Wave/Aqua Jet, a burn, etc. And you know what's nice? All of these counters are good, usuable, OU pokemon that can serve many potential roles INCLUDING this one.
If anything, as already stated, Latios needs to go (and hopefully Randorusu can see some looking into).
Edit: Just saw this. The game doesn't rotate around these. It rotates around Tyranitar, Hippowdon, Ninetales, Politoed, Abomasnow, Roobushin, Shanderra, etc. I swear I always see at least one of these on every team.
Personally, I don't find Latios to be as bad as some of you are making him out to be. Sure he hits hard, but so can lots of other mons this gen. He seems to be top tier OU, but not Uber. Blissey stops him cold if the set lacks Psycho Shock or Trick. Now if you're complaining about Latios and not wanting to adjust your team to deal with it, that's more of a team building issue and not the Pokemon's fault. (Not aimed at anyone in particular)
Besides Blissey and Burungeru, do you know a good list of VIABLE OU potential pokemon that can safeley switch into Latios? I definetley mean no offense, but from what Iv'e seen (battles, WiFi videos, spectating tournaments), an opposing Latios is gg, the result being a win for the Latios' tainer 99.99907% of the time. It's just sad when you're on a nice sweep, and you see that hideous blue penis pop up onto your screen. There's honestly no way to counter it (de ja vu 4th Gen Mence anyone?)
I would add Escavalier to the list. It can be tailored to servive two draco meteors, and it uses pursuit to OHKO when Latios tries to get out.
But Escavalier will take a horrendous amount of damage if it takes two hits from this.
Assuming both use speed natures, max special kingdra in rain vs max attack excadrill in sand (vs a neutral typed opponent, using same def/spec def for each):
kingdra surf: 222
excadrill earthquake: 199
kingdra waterfall: 187
The main argument I've heard for banning swiftswim+drizzle but leaving sandthrow+sandstream is that swift swim boosts both speed and water damage, but when you factor in the stat differences between swift swimmers and excadrill, doesn't it balance out? Especially when you consider that Excadrill has access to Swords Dance (+2) while Kingdra only gets Dragon Dance (+1, and only if he's using the weaker waterfall over surf).
Then of course, there's landlos and his free life orb, and the special defense buff for tyranitar, both of which are pretty significant as well...
Is there something I'm missing? It seems overkill to ban one and not the other when the difference is so small.
kingdra surf: 222
excadrill earthquake: 199
kingdra waterfall: 187
The main argument I've heard for banning swiftswim+drizzle but leaving sandthrow+sandstream is that swift swim boosts both speed and water damage, but when you factor in the stat differences between swift swimmers and excadrill, doesn't it balance out? Especially when you consider that Excadrill has access to Swords Dance (+2) while Kingdra only gets Dragon Dance (+1, and only if he's using the weaker waterfall over surf).
Then of course, there's landlos and his free life orb, and the special defense buff for tyranitar, both of which are pretty significant as well...
Is there something I'm missing? It seems overkill to ban one and not the other when the difference is so small.
If you take a look at the last 10 pages of this thread you'll see that there are more than two Pokemon capable of switching into it. I'll mention some of them for your convenience anyway:
1) specially defensive TTar can take 2 DM and KO with pursuit or crunch;
2) specially defensive Metagross and Escavalier both have the typing and the bulk to switch into DM or surf and KO a fleeing Latios with pursuit or meteor mash\megahorn if it stays in;
3) Jirachi can stall it with wish and\or make it completely useless with thunder wave\body slam;
4) Scizor can be EV'd to survive 2 DM or surf and KO with a CB pursuit even if Latios stays in;
5) Jibaku already mentioned that Nattorei takes like 25% from DM factoring in leftovers.
To these Pokemon you have to add many others that can use Latios as set up fodder or revenge kill it, I'm just going to name some of them: SD Lucario and Scizor itself, Excadrill, Volcarona, Weavile.
I'm sorry to say this but if you find yourself losing that often against Latios then you're either playing really bad or your team is EXTREMELY weak to Latios.
this post doesn't endorse the notion that latios is broken or not broken. but anyways list things safely switching into latios in general, not just specs set always using dm though....
i've seen plenty of ppl fake expert belt or even straight up just using life orb. none of those counters like getting hit by anything other than dm on the switch and then taking a respect spatk move
then we have those annoying ass calm mind life orb ones seen on the many rain teams out there atm...all but ttar will definitely be annoyed by that
i've seen plenty of ppl fake expert belt or even straight up just using life orb. none of those counters like getting hit by anything other than dm on the switch and then taking a respect spatk move
then we have those annoying ass calm mind life orb ones seen on the many rain teams out there atm...all but ttar will definitely be annoyed by that
People here are just bitching about Latios' specs set. The Pokemon I mentioned are all capable of handling that set. Yeah, I've seen and used EB Latios to catch Scizor and Natt offguard but while you can score some unexpected KO you lose the immediate power of the specs set (not to mention that a smart player will note the difference in the damage output from your dragon moves and won't stay in to take the hp fire).
We all know that many Pokemon can run unconventional sets to get past some of their counters\switch ins (bait TTar, agility hp ice Lucario, mixed Metagross and so on) but most of the time you just end up using inferior strategies or losing coverage against other Pokemon.
We all know that many Pokemon can run unconventional sets to get past some of their counters\switch ins (bait TTar, agility hp ice Lucario, mixed Metagross and so on) but most of the time you just end up using inferior strategies or losing coverage against other Pokemon.
I have yet to see a latios that did not have psycho shock or trick. I personnaly run psycho shock. In addition, you don't think its bad that each player has to prepare their team for 1 poke?
@oscura: the problem with drizzle was that the swift swim users essentially got both the equivalence of both sand abilities for one pokemon. Now its only water, instead of all steel, rock, and ground, but that's a considerable difference.
Isn't that part of the reason salamance was banned in gen 4? There were no safe switches into the mixed set after a dragon dance?
@Toast: I kind of found it amusing that aside from Quagsire (who is nowhere online), all the pokemon you've named, 90% of the time are on a sand team of their own. The exception being Gliscor who I see everywhere new ability is just amazing. And nothings wrong with playing sand since gen 4 (since the only opposite weather you really had to worry about switching in was abomasnow). But I seriously think he would be healthier out of the OU game.
Oh, and Roobushin is my hero. I basically run him as a fighting type azumaril (so, pretty much how I handle dory). I always lol when they lay out the toxic spikes for me to walk into. As far your revolving pokemon, 5 of the 7 you named are weather bringers. One of the ways to stop dory is to turn off the sand, so don't be too surprised if dory is still around, that weather will be as well (this statement of countering a pokemon by turning off the weather, obviously applies to all weather abusers such as Kingdra, Kabutops, Garchomp, Ludicolo, ect).
doryuuzu's OP'ed ness come from how much we are forced to spend more than 1 fucking slot just to handle him at definitely ban or suspect worthy. Its just mild broken though.
I think we can go off of these suspect crap. After SwSw Drizzle ban, the metagame is so fucking balanced its not funny. Reuniclus is stoppable as ever, Latios is manageable, Doryuuzu just waste at most 2 team slot, and rando's power isnt to hard to handle etc.
I think we can go off of these suspect crap. After SwSw Drizzle ban, the metagame is so fucking balanced its not funny. Reuniclus is stoppable as ever, Latios is manageable, Doryuuzu just waste at most 2 team slot, and rando's power isnt to hard to handle etc.
If you are having to dedicate two slots to beating a Pokemon then there is a problem. However, you don't have to. Pokemon like Gliscor and Skarmory laugh at it. Even others like Randurosu can beat it.
While this is strictly not gen 5 suspect testing, I do sort of feel curious at the Latias ban in Gen 4 now. I was never completely happy with it, although I did think the outcome was worth it (the metagame was much better with her banning). Here's Haunter's list of Specs Latios checks:
Now if we look at this carefully, apart from Nattorei and Excavalier (the latter is irrelevant), all of the above existed in 4th gen, yet no-one bothered to use them. The sentiment among anti-Latias players back in 4th gen was that "there were no safe switch-ins and nothing to counter Latias, which made her come in repeatedly and punch holes for another Pokemon to sweep". Well, if we look at Haunter's list, we DID have a way to counter Latias, and plenty of them, too. So now, with this in mind, we are saying that Latios is not broken because those checks can stop it? What happened to this back in 4th gen?
Now, my purpose behind this is not to ask Latias to be retested in 4th gen, but to make everyone think of their logic behind this now. Back in 4th gen, we can considered Specs Latias to be broken even those counters/checks listed. However, now in 5th gen, the majority (as demonstrated in the vote) considers Specs Latios, a Pokemon who is arguably better than Latias in said role not broken in the face of the same counters (minus Nattorei, but Latias has less power output, so it kind of evens out). Doesn't this sound like a contradiction to anyone? I'm aware that 5th gen is vastly different to 4th gen, but there are enough similarities between the two scenarios (i.e. checks/counters that exist). If anything, Latios should be more broken this gen with the addition of Psycho Shock to blast Blissey to hell with (the one Pokemon that Lati@s had to Trick to beat last gen), and the fact that the current metagame is a whole lot more offensive, meaning Latios can kill things easier and make even more situations for a teammate to sweep. So if we follow this logically, if you think Latias was broken last gen, then you should also think Latios is broken this gen and the opposite applies if you disagree. However, the community seems to contradict this. Hopefully this should be corrected as the metagame stabilises, but this is one major contradiction I'm finding very hard to swallow.
Now if we look at this carefully, apart from Nattorei and Excavalier (the latter is irrelevant), all of the above existed in 4th gen, yet no-one bothered to use them. The sentiment among anti-Latias players back in 4th gen was that "there were no safe switch-ins and nothing to counter Latias, which made her come in repeatedly and punch holes for another Pokemon to sweep". Well, if we look at Haunter's list, we DID have a way to counter Latias, and plenty of them, too. So now, with this in mind, we are saying that Latios is not broken because those checks can stop it? What happened to this back in 4th gen?
Now, my purpose behind this is not to ask Latias to be retested in 4th gen, but to make everyone think of their logic behind this now. Back in 4th gen, we can considered Specs Latias to be broken even those counters/checks listed. However, now in 5th gen, the majority (as demonstrated in the vote) considers Specs Latios, a Pokemon who is arguably better than Latias in said role not broken in the face of the same counters (minus Nattorei, but Latias has less power output, so it kind of evens out). Doesn't this sound like a contradiction to anyone? I'm aware that 5th gen is vastly different to 4th gen, but there are enough similarities between the two scenarios (i.e. checks/counters that exist). If anything, Latios should be more broken this gen with the addition of Psycho Shock to blast Blissey to hell with (the one Pokemon that Lati@s had to Trick to beat last gen), and the fact that the current metagame is a whole lot more offensive, meaning Latios can kill things easier and make even more situations for a teammate to sweep. So if we follow this logically, if you think Latias was broken last gen, then you should also think Latios is broken this gen and the opposite applies if you disagree. However, the community seems to contradict this. Hopefully this should be corrected as the metagame stabilises, but this is one major contradiction I'm finding very hard to swallow.
You said at the beginning that you felt that the metagame was much better with Latias' banning. Now I was new to the site and competitive battling in general at the time (I still remember the confusion of my Latias/Metagross core team not being allowed on Shoddy) but the way I understand the tests at the time (which I maintain would have been a better way around things than the way we now use: we have all the time in the world) was that the two metagames were used, one with Latias and one without it, and people decided which they preferred. So it was not that they thought it was broken, but more that, like you, they just preferred the metagame without it?
That's cool and all but I don't really think that answers shrang's arguement, which I believe to be a very good one. Probably the best brought up in the entire thread.
One factor that I believe helps make Choice Latios this gen weaker than Choice Latias the last gen is the presence of way more pokemon that could set up on it this gen and not be revenged by it later on. From the top of my head, the only gen 4 OU pokemon that could set-up on -2 Latias was Agiligross and Agililuke. Metagross was walled hard by Rotom, one of the most common pokemon in the metagame and Agililuke was better suited for late-game cleaning while latias was generally revealed early on.
This gen, we have Volcarona, Terakion, Reuniclus, and every single bulky weather sweeper. All of these can set up on Latias and be able to KO it and not be revenged by it mid-sweep. This means that offensive teams find it far easier to deal with Latios. Last gen, the only "offensive" pokemon that was viable as a Latias counter was Scarf-tar and CB Scizor, which was obviously overcentralization.
One factor that I believe helps make Choice Latios this gen weaker than Choice Latias the last gen is the presence of way more pokemon that could set up on it this gen and not be revenged by it later on. From the top of my head, the only gen 4 OU pokemon that could set-up on -2 Latias was Agiligross and Agililuke. Metagross was walled hard by Rotom, one of the most common pokemon in the metagame and Agililuke was better suited for late-game cleaning while latias was generally revealed early on.
This gen, we have Volcarona, Terakion, Reuniclus, and every single bulky weather sweeper. All of these can set up on Latias and be able to KO it and not be revenged by it mid-sweep. This means that offensive teams find it far easier to deal with Latios. Last gen, the only "offensive" pokemon that was viable as a Latias counter was Scarf-tar and CB Scizor, which was obviously overcentralization.
- Status