np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[haunter]

Now, my purpose behind this is not to ask Latias to be retested in 4th gen, but to make everyone think of their logic behind this now. Back in 4th gen, we can considered Specs Latias to be broken even those counters/checks listed. However, now in 5th gen, the majority (as demonstrated in the vote) considers Specs Latios, a Pokemon who is arguably better than Latias in said role not broken in the face of the same counters (minus Nattorei, but Latias has less power output, so it kind of evens out). Doesn't this sound like a contradiction to anyone? I'm aware that 5th gen is vastly different to 4th gen, but there are enough similarities between the two scenarios (i.e. checks/counters that exist). If anything, Latios should be more broken this gen with the addition of Psycho Shock to blast Blissey to hell with (the one Pokemon that Lati@s had to Trick to beat last gen), and the fact that the current metagame is a whole lot more offensive, meaning Latios can kill things easier and make even more situations for a teammate to sweep. So if we follow this logically, if you think Latias was broken last gen, then you should also think Latios is broken this gen and the opposite applies if you disagree. However, the community seems to contradict this. Hopefully this should be corrected as the metagame stabilises, but this is one major contradiction I'm finding very hard to swallow.

I believe that your post has inside the answers to your questions. This metagame is a lot more offensive than the 4th Gen one (especially after Latias and Salamence were banned). There are many new offensive threats in this generation, some of them are naturally faster than Latios (Thundrus, Tornadus, Excadrill during SS, clorophillerls on sun teams, speed boost Blaziken) while others can use a -2 SpA Latios to set up and generate dangerous situations for the Latios user. Add to this that we already got a plethora of counters\checks during the past generation and you'll understand the reasons why people are voting it OU.

I've always been convinced, even back in 4th Gen, that the Lati twins were not OP without soul dew and I'm glad that most players are starting to play around them rather than trying to eliminate them from the metagame.

 

[masterful]

I believe that your post has inside the answers to your questions. This metagame is a lot more offensive than the 4th Gen one (especially after Latias and Salamence were banned). There are many new offensive threats in this generation, some of them are naturally faster than Latios (Thundrus, Tornadus, Excadrill during SS, clorophillerls on sun teams, speed boost Blaziken) while others can use a -2 SpA Latios to set up and generate dangerous situations for the Latios user. Add to this that we already got a plethora of counters\checks during the past generation and you'll understand the reasons why people are voting it OU.

I've always been convinced, even back in 4th Gen, that the Lati twins were not OP without soul dew and I'm glad that most players are starting to play around them rather than trying to eliminate them from the metagame.

While it is true that Excadrill can set up to some extent on a Latios locked into DM AFTER using it the turn before, but that doesn't make latios a bad poke. There's no rule forcing Latios to use DM every time it comes in, nor is it really a fair trade off to sacrifice a poke in order to get one turn of set-up, only to be forced out by something like Gliscor or Conkeldurr (hate that name). One turn of set-up is rarely worth sacrificing a member of your team to SpecsLatios's DM. Other things, like Thundurus, will be EASILY 2HKOd by DM and won't be doing that much with a unSTAB HP Ice (same with Tornadus), and Latios resists both Blaziken's STABs, allowing it to tank any Blaze not carrying Shadow Claw (or maybe Stone Edge) into oblivion. In short, if one hopes to deal with Latios by using faster pokes or bulky set-up sweepers who will only get 1 turn, their not going to have a bunch of fun when Latios tears through their team with repeated DMs

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Does nobody remember that a lot of Latios use HP Fire?

Of course. Ferrothorn is such a big deal that most players forgo Thunderbolt for HP Fire. I don't think Latios or Latias have any other useful HiddenPower other than Fighting to complete it's coverage and checks its counters. Problem is, both Hidden Powers lower Speed by one point. I believe positive base 110's without a lower Speed IV or EV investment can try to deal with both of them fair enough. Though I've never used it, Ainto can use his Claw Sharpen set to check them and Baton Pass the boosts to another Physical sweeper, but this is just a theory.

Anyways, point is, HP Fire benefits Latios, but at the same time hinders it, so players could plays around that with a faster Latios/Latias or any other base 110 and higher.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Though I've never used it, Ainto can use his Claw Sharpen set to check them and Baton Pass the boosts to another Physical sweeper, but this is just a theory.

Well, Aianto has Base 109 Speed, is stopped by every physical wall, and can't take any special attack. I don't think he's used for much except for the rare Truant + Chandy combo.

Heck, he takes 59.53% - 70.04% from a -2 Specs Latios' DM and Latios can then get the kill with the -4 DM(Although it wouldn't be a good idea) sicne it deals 39.69% - 46.69% to the same Aianto.

Yea....Aianto/Durant is never going to see use in OU, let alone to check the Lati Twins.

 

[haunter]

While it is true that Excadrill can set up to some extent on a Latios locked into DM AFTER using it the turn before, but that doesn't make latios a bad poke. There's no rule forcing Latios to use DM every time it comes in, nor is it really a fair trade off to sacrifice a poke in order to get one turn of set-up, only to be forced out by something like Gliscor or Conkeldurr (hate that name). One turn of set-up is rarely worth sacrificing a member of your team to SpecsLatios's DM. Other things, like Thundurus, will be EASILY 2HKOd by DM and won't be doing that much with a unSTAB HP Ice (same with Tornadus), and Latios resists both Blaziken's STABs, allowing it to tank any Blaze not carrying Shadow Claw (or maybe Stone Edge) into oblivion. In short, if one hopes to deal with Latios by using faster pokes or bulky set-up sweepers who will only get 1 turn, their not going to have a bunch of fun when Latios tears through their team with repeated DMs

Nobody is saying that Latios is a bad Pokemon, where did you read that? And yeah, there's no rule saying that you're forced to use DM, but most complaints in this thread are against specs Latios' draco meteors.

The second part of your post is hilarious:
- firstly you say that there's no rule forcing Latios to use DM every time, then you say that Thundrus and Tornadus are are esaly 2hko'd by DM. So now you're assuming that the problem with Latios IS Draco Meteor;
- secondly what are you talking about? Nobody in their right mind would switch Thundrus or Tornadus into Latios (as they're both ohko'd by DM), they're just 2 Pokemon capable of outspeeding and revenging it if need be.

Finally as far as I know Blaziken doesn't even need shadow claw to get past Latios as a +2 HJK will KO Latios despite being NVE.

 

[TLK]

Well, a Latios with HP Fire means that the steels like Ferrothorn and the Bug/Steels aren't counters. A set of Psycho Shock, HP Fire, Surf, DM with Specs 2HKO's everything except Jirachi, T-Tar and maybe Metagross (never ran calcs on it). The ability to run a set which can 2HKO everything and outspeed a lot of other stuff. How is something that can 2HKO the entire world a good thing for the metagame?

Yeah, lowering the speed by 1 point is a bit of a problem, but it just means that it won't speed tie other base 110's.

And a lot of people act as though Specs is the only thing Latios can do.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Hm, really? I was under the impression that Ainto was a base 110. At least we can discard that theory.

Anyways, I've seen Dual Lati twins on some teams like Panamaxis' when I battled him. Can you guys delineate on this? I believe it's about weakening counters for a Latias sweep or something along these lines.

The big deal with hidden power is that Latios and Latias sacrifice the ability to tie with other base 110s for the ability to eliminate Ferrothorn, and to a lesser extent, Scizor. Other than that, they still outspeed a whole lot.

 

[TLK]

Hm, really? I was under the impression that Ainto was a base 110. At least we can discard that theory.

Anyways, I've seen Dual Lati twins on some teams like Panamaxis' when I battled him. Can you guys delineate on this? I believe it's about weakening counters for a Latias sweep or something along these lines.

The big deal with hidden power is that Latios and Latias sacrifice the ability to tie with other base 110s for the ability to eliminate Ferrothorn, and to a lesser extent, Scizor. Other than that, they still outspeed a whole lot.

I don't mind not having a 50/50 chance of taking out fellow base 110s if it means that I can take out stuff like Scizor which try to get in on me.

HP Fighting is great for T-Tar, but neutral steels just laugh at Latios (like Jirachi, at least specially defensive Rachi is still taking a decent chunk before Latios has to switch).

 

[November Blue]

I've read through this thread and all the posts about draco meteor, and I really feel that I need to say something.

Protect + Leech Seed makes Ferrothorn 10x better!!

Ferrothorn is one of the best counters to the bomber dragons, but all these people saying that he gets worn down too easily tanking repeated meteors just aren't using him correctly. Power whip / Gyro ball / Spikes / SR is NOT a practical moveset for him, and unless you're using him with another steel type or as part of a specialized defensive core, he's going to become deadweight very quickly.

Let's assume worst case scenario. You opponent switches in a latios. It has specs, and you switch in your max spdef ferrothorn to take the DM. It does 37% (max damage I think) and you take SR damage too. You gain lefties recovery at the end of the turn and are now at 63% Latios must now switch out, so you fire off a leech seed. The trick here is to scout with protect. Say the opponent switches in conkeldurr to scare off ferro and gets seeded upon switching in. Let's also say that leech seed will return 12% to ferrothorn from conks huge HP. At the end of this turn you'll be at 81%

Now, instead of switching out, you protect. This allows you to scout whatever the opponent does at this point, and if they stay in you get another turn of leftovers and leech seed. Ferrothorn is now at 99% going by my truncated maths. This system is also great for wearing down his counters, as they take heavy damage just for switching in.

I have never seen anybody use Ferrothorn like this before. Oh and:

LATIOS HAS BEEN VOTED OU TWICE IN THIS SUSPECT PERIOD. STOP NOMINATING IT!

Sure, we can discuss it's effect on the meta and it's similarity to hydreigon, but it failed to reach a simple majority TWICE (right?) If it's a problem for you, this thread is packed with lists of counters and safe switchins. Unless it suddenly appears in the dream world with butterfly dance I doubt it will be going anywhere any time soon.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Ferrothorn is one of the best counters to the bomber dragons

A lot of Lati@s run HP Fire, therefore he's a check, not a counter.

This allows you to scout whatever the opponent does at this point, and if they stay in you get another turn of leftovers and leech seed.

Yay, Ferro is almost at max HP!
Yet you now have a +1 Conkeldurr to face now in your example.

 

[smashlloyd20]

We are giving reasons why Latios should be Uber. Just because it was voted OU twice doesn't mean it shouldn't be Uber. Not an opinion, just saying.

Also, nearly every Ferrothorn I run across uses Protect/Leech Seed.

 

[Benlisted]

Ferrothorn with Leech Seed and Protect is its only reliable means of recovering health outside of Lefties, so it is an excellent option. The problem is that it then restricts you from using T-Wave, or 2 attacks if you want a hazard. Ofc fire moves give it large issues but the protect+leech seed combo is defintely a very good option.

 

[Bad Ass]

I see a Latias effect with Latios. People vote it OU time and time again, until that one time where you get the right combination of voters, and it is voted Ubers. I think that we need a system where after it is voted OU a couple times, it can't be voted up to Ubers unless there is a drastic change.

 

[TLK]

We are talking about Latios in a different metagame than the last 2 times. The first time he was put up was when there was Darkrai, Skymin and Inconsistent running about. The second was a metagame where Swift Swim and Manaphy were running about. Now we're discussing Latios in this new metagame.

 

[Zephyr]

I see a Latias effect with Latios. People vote it OU time and time again, until that one time where you get the right combination of voters, and it is voted Ubers. I think that we need a system where after it is voted OU a couple times, it can't be voted up to Ubers unless there is a drastic change.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[capefeather]

I think that we can trust Philip7086 & Co. to keep the past in mind when looking at repeated nominations. Besides, it's pretty easy to discount at least Round 1 and maybe Round 2 in Latios's case. Latios was utterly murdered by everything that got banned in Round 1.

 

[Benlisted]

I see a Latias effect with Latios. People vote it OU time and time again, until that one time where you get the right combination of voters, and it is voted Ubers. I think that we need a system where after it is voted OU a couple times, it can't be voted up to Ubers unless there is a drastic change.

I think this is probably a reasonable idea, but that it also would have little practical impact given the reasons TLK states - the meta shifts drastically each time a round of bans are made, and as such Latios as well as anything else will be in a different environment each time they are voted upon. Such a limit on the amount of times would probably have little to no impact given the flux the meta will be going through with the DW releases and our suspect testing.

EDIT: Ninja'd

 

[masterful]

Nobody is saying that Latios is a bad Pokemon, where did you read that? And yeah, there's no rule saying that you're forced to use DM, but most complaints in this thread are against specs Latios' draco meteors.

The second part of your post is hilarious:
- firstly you say that there's no rule forcing Latios to use DM every time, then you say that Thundrus and Tornadus are are esaly 2hko'd by DM. So now you're assuming that the problem with Latios IS Draco Meteor;
- secondly what are you talking about? Nobody in their right mind would switch Thundrus or Tornadus into Latios (as they're both ohko'd by DM), they're just 2 Pokemon capable of outspeeding and revenging it if need be.

Finally as far as I know Blaziken doesn't even need shadow claw to get past Latios as a +2 HJK will KO Latios despite being NVE.

1)Thank for responding in a logical manner. I hope that this thread does not trun into a repeat of round two.
2)This thread is about Latios's place in tiers, thusly, he should be considered as a number of possiblities, not select situations, ie. Referring to Latios solely as a -2 DM or a poke INCAPABLE of using DM. Using any of his moves is an option, and his counters should be determined based on that fact.
3)Tornadus and Thundurus will be 2HKOd by DM, that is a fact (I don't know if Max SpD/HP can let them survive it, but that is inconsequential), and therefore can safely switch into Latios's attacks, especially if SR is up. Secondly, HP Ice can't KO Latios at 88% iirc, so it can't revenge it either
4)Yes, max speed Blaze at +1 speed and +2 attack can likely OHKO with HJK, but it can't come in and KO, nor can it really set up on Latios unless it is locked into -2 DM and Blaze is at high HP. That hardly makes Latios any worse. That is essentially a problem with any scarf or specs pokemon, and does not make Latios any less broken

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Blaziken takes 76.08% - 90.03% from Specs Latios' -2 Draco Meteor.
I seriously hope your Blaziken doesn't carry Life Orb, otherwise it's screwed.

Still, Blaziken's +2 HJK hits Latios for 91.36% - 107.64%.
The problem is getting to +2 without getting murdered.

Ok, Latios injured a mon with DM, you switch in Ken and take 80%.
Now what? You sit there and watch your Ken die or you switch out to something that can take the -4 DM.
Actually, it would be best for the Latios user to just switch out to anything that can stop the set up or any priority user actually.

And please, don't tell me "Oh, just switch to your magic set up sweeper that nothing can stop at +1" >.>

Just about every sweeper you mentioned is easily stopped by SOMETHING.

Terrakion? Physical walls, Bulky waters, and Priority users.
Excadrill? GLISCOR, Skarmory, Freakin bulky Slowbro, mons abusing Balloon, etc.
Volcarona? Bulky Waters, Azumarill, Stealth Rock, freakin Blissey
The genies? These are tough to stop, but it's not like they can just shrug off that -2 DM anyway.

Latios doesn't have many counters T_T

 

[haunter]

1)Thank for responding in a logical manner. I hope that this thread does not trun into a repeat of round two.
2)This thread is about Latios's place in tiers, thusly, he should be considered as a number of possiblities, not select situations, ie. Referring to Latios solely as a -2 DM or a poke INCAPABLE of using DM. Using any of his moves is an option, and his counters should be determined based on that fact.

I don't even know what to reply to this. I'll just assume that you either can't play Pokemon competitively or you're trying to troll again. If you bothered to read other posts in this thread you'd have noted that the main problem with Latios is specs DM opening holes into every Pokemon, even those that resist dragon moves, that's why I stated that spamming DM can be extremely dangerous for the Latios user. And for the last time, I'm not saying that Latios is a bad Pokemon, in fact I believe the opposite.

3)Tornadus and Thundurus will be 2HKOd by DM, that is a fact (I don't know if Max SpD/HP can let them survive it, but that is inconsequential), and therefore can safely switch into Latios's attacks, especially if SR is up. Secondly, HP Ice can't KO Latios at 88% iirc, so it can't revenge it either
4)Yes, max speed Blaze at +1 speed and +2 attack can likely OHKO with HJK, but it can't come in and KO, nor can it really set up on Latios unless it is locked into -2 DM and Blaze is at high HP. That hardly makes Latios any worse. That is essentially a problem with any scarf or specs pokemon, and does not make Latios any less broken

Dude can't you read or what??? I NEVER said that Thundrus and Tornadus can switch in into Latios! I just mentioned them as revenge killers, and 88% would be enough assuming SR and that your calculations are correct. The same applies to Blaziken to an extent, it's not going to switch into Latios and again I didn't mention it as a Latios counter but just as an argument to back up my thesis - which is that in this offensive and fast paced metagame Latios is not as poweful as some of you make it to be.

Since you like logical responses I'll end my post with this:
1) lurk more before posting here;
2) try to read a post carefully before attacking it.

And please, don't tell me "Oh, just switch to your magic set up sweeper that nothing can stop at +1" >.>

Just about every sweeper you mentioned is easily stopped by SOMETHING.

Terrakion? Physical walls, Bulky waters, and Priority users.
Excadrill? GLISCOR, Skarmory, Freakin bulky Slowbro, mons abusing Balloon, etc.
Volcarona? Bulky Waters, Azumarill, Stealth Rock, freakin Blissey
The genies? These are tough to stop, but it's not like they can just shrug off that -2 DM anyway >.>

What are you talking about dude? Starting from the fact that most team can't carry a dedicated wall for every sweeper capable of setting up on a -2 o -4 Latios, you're terribly wrong assuming that bulky waters counter Volcarona as in fact it can easily take their weak water attack after a BD and rape them with bug buzz. And I can't think of a physical wall able to take a Terakion's +2 SE or CC. Also, I don't know what you're trying to prove with this. Even Latios has its counters and so what? If you don't pack counters or checks for a given threat you accept the risk of losing to that threat. I've already explained that the possibility to setup on a -2 Latios is just a possible way to play around it.

 

[PK Gaming]

So... DDmence is quite effective in this metagame. Scarf Garchomp has definitely decreased in use (As a result of Doryuuzu I guess) and scarf users in general are pretty rare now. It's capable of beating that annoying Burungeru/Nattorei (with some prediction) and it just cleans up. You guys should give it a shot.

 

[Jibaku]

And a lot of people act as though Specs is the only thing Latios can do.

I agree with this. Although I'm a heavy supporter of "don't ban Latios", I see that a lot of people seem to be fixated on the power of Specs DM. As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, Specs Latios is likely not its best set in this meta, considering the number of things that can take advantage of its locked attacks (which in turn somewhat forces Latios to spam DM "to be on the safe side", but even then, it's not all that safe against a few Pokemon (so long as they're not frail of course)).

The metagame appears to be progressively harsher to Latios. Pursuits are seemingly becoming more common, Jirachis are appearing in basically every rain team (and Ferrothorn is still there too, although Jirachi doesn't get destroyed by HP Fire without rain). Rotom-Ws are baiting Latios all over the place with Volt Change etc. Sometimes this makes me feel that Latios is a bit of a hindrance to my team (although he remains an effective weapon against sun offense), though he's not something I could simply replace because he fills in that one particular role.

I'm tempted to say what's in here. Unhide at your own risk. You have been warned

To be very honest I can't believe people are even nominating him for suspect. And yes, I mean this.

I do hope people remember that an offensive Pokemon's suspectability isn't necessarily just based on how many counters they have. Other factors include its sweeping ability, its versatility, how natural its counters are, and how well the metagame punishes the Pokemon overall.

 

[Tobes]

What Jibaku said sums it up perfectly for me, including what's in the hide tags.

I'd also like to note that "1-for-1 trades" (although I'm not saying Latios can't just spam DM and switch out if you don't carry a Pursuiter, don't get me wrong) are not as big of a deal as last gen, because now you know exactly what your opponent has and should be able to decide to sack your least useful Pokemon in order to get a set-up chance or throw out a strong hit of your own, as opposed to last gen when you couldn't be completely sure that you wouldn't need so-and-so poke lategame, so it's much easier to mitigate Latios' effect than it was last gen.

 

[Raikaria]

I agree with this. Although I'm a heavy supporter of "don't ban Latios", I see that a lot of people seem to be fixated on the power of Specs DM. As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, Specs Latios is likely not its best set in this meta, considering the number of things that can take advantage of its locked attacks (which in turn somewhat forces Latios to spam DM "to be on the safe side", but even then, it's not all that safe against a few Pokemon (so long as they're not frail of course)).

The metagame appears to be progressively harsher to Latios. Pursuits are seemingly becoming more common, Jirachis are appearing in basically every rain team (and Ferrothorn is still there too, although Jirachi doesn't get destroyed by HP Fire without rain). Rotom-Ws are baiting Latios all over the place with Volt Change etc. Sometimes this makes me feel that Latios is a bit of a hindrance to my team (although he remains an effective weapon against sun offense), though he's not something I could simply replace because he fills in that one particular role.

I'm tempted to say what's in here. Unhide at your own risk. You have been warned

To be very honest I can't believe people are even nominating him for suspect. And yes, I mean this.

I do hope people remember that an offensive Pokemon's suspectability isn't necessarily just based on how many counters they have. Other factors include its sweeping ability, its versatility, how natural its counters are, and how well the metagame punishes the Pokemon overall.

The thing is, you could easily equate these shifts with the Salamance and Latias Syndrome in Gen 4.

Scizor was everywhere. When Salamance got banned, he dropped significantly.

Scarftar was everywhere when Latias was OU, when it was banned, Scarftar dropped off the radar.

The fact that every team type is now cramming anything that can serve as a check/counter is Latios screams too much of the Gen 4 Latias and Salamance Syndrome. [I wasn't around in the old days when Chomp was OU and had about 70% useage]

Remember, Salamance was hotly debated on the OU/Uber borderline, because he had 'checks' which held him in place, such as Scizor. But the point was, it was either use at least one of these checks, or you lose. It's the same with Latios. Either you use one of his very few checks, or you lose. You can't really work around Latios without something like Jirachi or Scarftar, just like you couldn't work around Salamance in 4th Gen without Scizor, and a few other pokemon.

To me, Latios seems like 4th Gen Salamence/Latias. It's such a massive threat, that every team is prepared for it, limiting it's usefulness to the point where it seems acceptable, but, in reality, the only reason it even seems acceptable is because of the intense overcentralisation.

Just like in Round 2, there were far more sand teams than there are now.

 

[Benlisted]

To me, Latios seems like 4th Gen Salamence/Latias. It's such a massive threat, that every team is prepared for it, limiting it's usefulness to the point where it seems acceptable, but, in reality, the only reason it even seems acceptable is because of the intense overcentralisation.

Bolded what I feel to be the weak point in this statement. The metagame now is really not overcentralised as far as I see. A variety of stall, bulky offence, balance, and even HO are viable, as are many varieties of weatherless, SS, Rain, and to an extent Sun and Hail teams. I don't really see any overcentralisation in individual pokemon either, a lot of options are viable on all the above teamstyles. Sets are the only real way you could say Latios overcnetralises, but given the variety of ways you can revenge it, as well as plan for it via team preview, I don't think this is particularly significant overcentralisation.