"Nintendo" did, Game Freak is just doing their job as game designers.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Non-VGC Doubles Metagame
- Thread starter StarmanXL
- Start date
- Status
"Nintendo" did, Game Freak is just doing their job as game designers.
I feel like a large amount of people want to do doubles that isn't VGC but the wait times for a battle are pretty long.
Does sleep clause even necessarily have to come? Likewise with other clauses? VGC has it's own rules and so do singles, but for this kind of metagame might as well throw in the idea that with the various doubles supportive moves, maybe a sleep clause isn't needed?
Maybe dark void itself just needs to be banned.
Implementing something like "well dark void works on the first pokemon and fails on the second" seems...like some heavy modification. More so than the sleep clause in singles.
To get this off the ground why not set up a tournament or so?
Does sleep clause even necessarily have to come? Likewise with other clauses? VGC has it's own rules and so do singles, but for this kind of metagame might as well throw in the idea that with the various doubles supportive moves, maybe a sleep clause isn't needed?
Maybe dark void itself just needs to be banned.
Implementing something like "well dark void works on the first pokemon and fails on the second" seems...like some heavy modification. More so than the sleep clause in singles.
To get this off the ground why not set up a tournament or so?
That's quite a good point about clauses not being translatable, and I think it's worth a look at. Just from looking at last years VGC (no sleep clause) the abuse of Dark Void was reasonably common, and though most teams ran at least one Lum/Chesto berry, they are sometimes inferior options and were maybe used due to item clause. Essentially, sleep was a pretty big threat, and it wasn't only Dark Voiders abusing it, so I think the sleep clause would be needed, but it's worth a test.
Another thing perhaps no longer needed is evasion clause. It's dangerous to boost most stats in doubles, let alone one as random as evasion. Could anyone imagine follow me users seriously being used to draw attention from a pokemon double teaming up?
OHKO Clause is something that seems very exploitable in doubles due to skill swap and No Guard (unless this doesn't work), and as such may still be required, though testing it would have to be done.
Since it's so hard to find a match I can't really see the impact of follow me/rage powder and wide guard, two moves i think will have a huge impact and may be overpowering.
I've seen Role Play Sheer Cold Abomasnow team up with No Guard Mimic Machamp. When Abomasnow was KO'ed, a Mew came in and used Transform on Machamp. It was in a video on Youtube someone used to prove some MEchanic of Fourth gen.
Fourth 'Mon was filler.
Guess that answers the does it work query lol. Yeah, different clauses could be needed in doubles, or maybe a derestriction would work since things trying to pull off boosted evasion or OHKO moves can be punished pretty hard by an all out offence during the setup. Really needs testing :\.
After seeing that battle I'm convinced that OHKO Clause needs to be in place for all doubles and triples. It's just too easy to set-up. The battle only lasted as long as it did because the opposing Team had Pokemon with Protect and Sashes.
At the end of two turns, you have two Pokemon with a Move that OHKOes 95+% of the entire Pokedex- never mind what the meta is. That's the reason Sheer Cold is the preferred OHKO move: Horn Drill is immune to Ghosts, Fissure is immune to Fliers, and I don't remember what the fourth one was but something walls that too. But nothing is immune to Ice so it OHKOes everything without Sturdy or a Sash. And even then, you have six other moves to play with. If Machamp needs too kill a Pokemon that survived a Sheer Cold that badly is has Dynamic Punch AND Bullet Punch.
You can only stop it in that first turn by killing Abomasnow before it first uses Sheer Cold (Machamp can use Protect with little to no harm to itself or attack if it's not afraid of anything.)
You mean, Fliers are immune to Fissure, and ghosts are immune to Horn Drill. I never thought a move was immune to anything :P
Those kind of strategies are not actually easy to pull off against an opponent. A Smart person should be double Attacking Aomasnow and KOing it.
Those kind of strategies are not actually easy to pull off against an opponent. A Smart person should be double Attacking Aomasnow and KOing it.
I completely agree with banning OHKO moves. I've seen a similar thing happen with Machamp and Smeargle. Sure, it can be countered -- anything can be countered, but to say "a smart person will do _____" is silly. A strategy that takes one turn to set up and can wipe out entire teams, particularly well-planned out and diverse ones, is something that should be banned. If this kind of thing were allowed it would over-centralize leads.
As far as Sleep Clause, I won a local tournament today where we all agreed on a modified sleep clause. It was no more than 3 pokemon could be put to sleep on your opponents team at one time, so it allowed the use of Dark Void smeargle but it was really only allowed one dark void before it needed to start killing stuff off or doing something else. The guy I played in the final was using Spore Breloom and I asked him about the rule and he said he didn't feel overly restricted by it. As a matter of fact he danced around the rule pretty well in his Quarterfinal match.
I would have loved the new priority for Follow Me and Fake Out today. My fake out got pulled to a Togekiss while Gyrados taunted my Trick Roomer. Still won though. ZapChomp is a lot less intimidating with Hail up ;)
As far as Sleep Clause, I won a local tournament today where we all agreed on a modified sleep clause. It was no more than 3 pokemon could be put to sleep on your opponents team at one time, so it allowed the use of Dark Void smeargle but it was really only allowed one dark void before it needed to start killing stuff off or doing something else. The guy I played in the final was using Spore Breloom and I asked him about the rule and he said he didn't feel overly restricted by it. As a matter of fact he danced around the rule pretty well in his Quarterfinal match.
I would have loved the new priority for Follow Me and Fake Out today. My fake out got pulled to a Togekiss while Gyrados taunted my Trick Roomer. Still won though. ZapChomp is a lot less intimidating with Hail up ;)
If anyone's actually serious about starting this as a community side metagame, then some sort of initial ruleset and banlist are probably the things we'd need to put forward so people can build teams for the meta created. Unless we just want to setup a derestricted tournament to get a feel for the meta and what rules should be laid out?
Whatever the case, I think the OU initial banlist for this Gen is something we should use as a starting point, which I belive was all 670 BST mons and up being banned. Rulesets I'd be less sure of. If some decision is reached in this thread on a vague course to take then I'll start building a team or two to test out against anyone who's interested too.
Whatever the case, I think the OU initial banlist for this Gen is something we should use as a starting point, which I belive was all 670 BST mons and up being banned. Rulesets I'd be less sure of. If some decision is reached in this thread on a vague course to take then I'll start building a team or two to test out against anyone who's interested too.
The first thing I think we should do is set up a server for this. Then we can attempt to run this metagame. Second thing is to set up some forums, because I'm pretty sure we're not going to be able to run such a huge metagame in a single thread.
I think we should start with a week with Ubers unbanned, so that we can all get a feel for this metagame first. Its only a week, and it won't cost too much to do this test(cue VGC 2010, a popular metagame despite broken-ass Ubers) and get a clear picture of this metagame. Right now, what we get are battles; on a server, we can construct a metagame.
I think we should start with a week with Ubers unbanned, so that we can all get a feel for this metagame first. Its only a week, and it won't cost too much to do this test(cue VGC 2010, a popular metagame despite broken-ass Ubers) and get a clear picture of this metagame. Right now, what we get are battles; on a server, we can construct a metagame.
That's cool. I would do it, but for some reason, proboards hates me atm :(
EDIT: It doesn't hate me any more, so I'm setting it up. WIll edit link into this post.
http://the-doubles-forum.proboards.com/index.cgi
Sign up folks!
I'm still editing the basics of the forum.
Personally I think that Uber Doubles and OU Doubles would be well laid out and seperate parts of this meta, and as such we may as well start with some Ubers banned, unless we want to focus on that part initially :\. I say this mostly as most people play OU rather than Ubers in singles, so hopefully using OU as the baseline for Doubles would garner it more support.
If we're intending to make a banlist anyway, we may as well speed the process somewhat and lay out the initial one imo, unless anyone can see good reason some of the 680+ Ubers wouldn't be broken in doubles? Another point I suppose is that doing it this way seperates it from VGC last year, though I admittedly have no way of knowing if this is still played at all.. A week with Ubers wouldn't really harm anything, just if an intial banlist will be in place I don't really see the point :\.
In any case, will join those forums shortly. Creating a server needs to be done at some point, but if we decide upon some intitial rules we could at least play challenges on any other server to get a feel for the game.
If we're intending to make a banlist anyway, we may as well speed the process somewhat and lay out the initial one imo, unless anyone can see good reason some of the 680+ Ubers wouldn't be broken in doubles? Another point I suppose is that doing it this way seperates it from VGC last year, though I admittedly have no way of knowing if this is still played at all.. A week with Ubers wouldn't really harm anything, just if an intial banlist will be in place I don't really see the point :\.
In any case, will join those forums shortly. Creating a server needs to be done at some point, but if we decide upon some intitial rules we could at least play challenges on any other server to get a feel for the game.
This is excellent; a doubles metagame not manipulated by developers/producers is sure to be a more balanced and explored tier.
100% with Dark Void becoming banned. It's not that I have to wade through the people using it or that I hate it, its just way too easy to incorperate into every team. I have yet to see a non-turn-based strategy that could not find room for a Dark Void user (and just imagine with Victini...).
The banlist of 670 is a good move to stop early overcentralization.
100% with Dark Void becoming banned. It's not that I have to wade through the people using it or that I hate it, its just way too easy to incorperate into every team. I have yet to see a non-turn-based strategy that could not find room for a Dark Void user (and just imagine with Victini...).
The banlist of 670 is a good move to stop early overcentralization.
Remember to ban insta-Rain and Sun also. Do you really want to just see "Ludicolo used Surf!" "Kingdra used Surf" every other turn? If rain wasn't so broken then Sun would be a close second.
This evening, I'll sort out some more stuff on the forum such as where we can play, tournaments, an RMT forum etc.
Just to keep you all updated.
THe reason I'd like to run an "Ubers" test for a week is to ascertain what some of the event legendaries do in an environment similar to that of a VGC 2010 in some aspects. After a week passes, we can start banning stuff. However, throughout this week, we can start nominating suspects based on our gameplay experience.
Just to keep you all updated.
THe reason I'd like to run an "Ubers" test for a week is to ascertain what some of the event legendaries do in an environment similar to that of a VGC 2010 in some aspects. After a week passes, we can start banning stuff. However, throughout this week, we can start nominating suspects based on our gameplay experience.
While I see where you're coming from, I think this is a tricky subject. If Rain and Sun are overpowering, we have to consider, is the auto-weather too strong or is the weather too strong? Permanent rain and sun is powerful, yes, but you have to ask yourself, how is it different from just using RD/SD? It's permanent, but doubles is a fast paced metagame--maybe 8 turns is just as good as permanent if your team smashes the other that fast anyway. Not to mention the advent of priority weather users like Tornadus (who is also good for Tailwind and Hurricane spam) and whatnot, and you have to ask what is the difference between using them and banning Drizzle and Drought.
Honestly, at this point in time, I don't have enough evidence to really lean either way, but it's something worth considering. Also, while I like the idea of this Uber period, I am a bit scared that, if we just flat out start suspect testing as soon as we start the game up, we will run into the same problem that plagues standard OU right now, that of this idea that we can and should ban things instead of trying to play around them and burden on the rulemaker (check out Policy Review, there's a thread pertaining to that).
Regardless, I'm glad people are taking initiative to make this happen.
The difference is a turn and possibly an item. You say yourself that it is a fast paced metagame; a move can mean everything. Weather effects happen immediately as the battle begins, which of course means Swift Swim, Solar Power, and Flower Gift are active turn one where as if you use the actual moves Rain Dance or Sunny Day you will have to stall out a turn in order for it to activate. It's like coming into battle with a Tailwind or Reflect up. What's even worse about the moves is you again have to waste a turn when you want it back up if it runs out on you or the opponent changes the weather (though arguing both ways, you'll have to bring the Drizzle/Drought Pokemon in again when you need it).
Not saying one way or the other as there are many options with Kyogre and Groudon, but conservatively teams will not commonly run the moves when they have said options available. Especially when the options are incredibly powerful as is.
I think in doubles the four weathers will prove a lot more balanced - not to mention Storm Drain or Wide guard effectively neuters surf spam, Tailwind helps outspeed SwSw and Chlorophyllers, and TR is much more rewarding. SS now also has insanely fast and powerful sweepers able to abuse it, and Hail has the ability to Blizzspam with Kyurem, which is pretty damn good considering how slow both their inducers are, giving them an advantage.
I'm not 100% sold that auto-weather can be classified as "broken" at once in doubles. I can see how its strong, but then again, in doubles, you can't check everything. You need to have a gameplan, even on a goodstuffs team. It isn't possible to hope to be able to stop everything with a goodstufss team; there will always be something ready to trip you up. Rain teams can spam Surf sure, but something like an Erufuun can cause havoc by setting up Tailwind/SUnny Day for your Pokemon to gain some respite and strike back. Its important to take advantages of small openings, far more so than singles. The matter should be looked into during suspect testing.
-------------------------------------------------------
Do remember that with global effects, you can bring along an Abomasnow/whatever to act as an "anti-global effect" Pokemon
-------------------------------------------------------
For the purposes of those who haven't joined the forum yet, I'd liek to announce that the first suspect test has begun. Details are at http://www.the-doubles-forum.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=general&thread=2&post=11
Nominations will begin in a couple of days.
Nominations will begin in a couple of days.
Do remember that with global effects, you can bring along an Abomasnow/whatever to act as an "anti-global effect" Pokemon
- Status