Yeah, the only feasible way to Taunt that thing is by using Mischievious Heart Sableye and Taunt can be Magic Coated back which would make Sableye utterly useless...
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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That statement is clearly referring to discussing the removal of existing bans. I am suggesting no such thing.
I don't see Garchomp as broken, and I definitely don't think Sand Veil is broken. A 20% accuracy drop on opposing Pokemon just doesn't tip the bucket. I use SubSD. While Sand Veil has won me a few games, it is not a factor in most of them.
It's not necessary to ban such an ability. It isn't nearly as dangerous as Inconsistent, or some of the other abilities allowed in Standard play. If we ban SV, we might as well also go ahead and troll Serene Grace users. Super Luck too, the list goes on. We may as well go ahead and remove Hax from the game, right? No, shit happens.
It's not necessary to ban such an ability. It isn't nearly as dangerous as Inconsistent, or some of the other abilities allowed in Standard play. If we ban SV, we might as well also go ahead and troll Serene Grace users. Super Luck too, the list goes on. We may as well go ahead and remove Hax from the game, right? No, shit happens.
I wouldn't say it's particularly broken (although I maintain Landlos is a bit ridiculous).
However, it does make for an extraordinarily boring metagame right now. Can't wait for the tiers to be made so I can drop down a few tiers.
Pretty much my sentiments exactly. I posted in a different thread that although they aren't necessarily tier-ruining powerful, they are extremely common. Ferrothorn is a pokemon I'm seeing on almost every team as well.
I don't mean to come across as too whiny but I dislike seeing the same pokemon every match and it's ultimately what leads me to play UU every gen.
Have you ever tried attacking it?
I'm usually not that big of a douche bag, but I felt like I had to here. Usually they all carry taunt/magic coat/stealth rock/spikes, so why not just attack it or immediately send out a rapid spinner if you have one?
Because it doesn't die in one hit (especially since they nearly always carry Focus Sash) and will set up regardless what you do. Dual Screens to Gorebyss also sucks. Not saying it's broken or not (even though I would consider it somewhat suspect atm) but just punching it in the face isn't the answer.
In my experience I have always 2HKOed it and it's not that big of a deal. Playing with screens up isn't the worst thing in the world for a few turns, and neither is SR/one layer of spikes. Have admittedly never faced someone who instantly set up screens and switched to Gorebyss though.
Dual screens to gorebyss isn't a big deal because those deo-S leads never carry attacks (in one battle, I set up on the deo-S with sun blaziken as it set up screens and swept his team with a +4 speed boosting chicken).
The ones that bother me are the leads everywhere else. It isn't uncommon for them to carry at least one attack for coverage. Normally, I SR anyway with mental herb forretress (when they opt for taunt over magic coat) and spam rapid spin and gyro ball when they try to set up spikes. That only works against crappy pokemon like suicide lead aerodactyl. It doesn't actually work vs. deoxys. It isn't uncommon for him to carry hp fire either so I ocassionally lose my forry.
Edit: Power swap tales usually keeps me from losing to gorebyss baton passers. I have lost to it once in dreamworld when the guy baton passed to lightning rod zapdos with roost and LO.
The ones that bother me are the leads everywhere else. It isn't uncommon for them to carry at least one attack for coverage. Normally, I SR anyway with mental herb forretress (when they opt for taunt over magic coat) and spam rapid spin and gyro ball when they try to set up spikes. That only works against crappy pokemon like suicide lead aerodactyl. It doesn't actually work vs. deoxys. It isn't uncommon for him to carry hp fire either so I ocassionally lose my forry.
Edit: Power swap tales usually keeps me from losing to gorebyss baton passers. I have lost to it once in dreamworld when the guy baton passed to lightning rod zapdos with roost and LO.
subroost zapdos doens't pray for stone edge to miss.it strategically outstalls stone edge's poor pps.even if stone edge hits while you are roosting it's not a big deal 'cause you are roosting and your zapdos is defensive so it won't do more than 50% ...
the two obligatory partners that you are talking about are too of the most used pokemons in their catregories 'cause they are very strong pokes even without sandstorm.hippowdon is a coomon poke in stall teams and tyranitar is almost in every balanced and bulky offensive team.so it's not that big of obligation to have...a big liabilty is ninetales and politoed not tyranitar and hippowdon...and the chance to miss becomes much greater over turns when spamming subs.
'cause hyper offensive teams don't carry counters but checks most of the time it can be game over when sand veil activates and your check dies without having done anything.
have you ever played a pth gen meta with ohko moves and evasion rasing moves allowes for a fair amount of time?no!so how can you say that they are broken?how are you supposed to make someone believe you without any evidence.the fact is that,broken or not,evasion moves are not allowed in the meta 'cause they introduce luck with the only purpose of doing so not because they are broken.we don't know if they would be but we know that we don't want something so luck based in the meta 'cause it's a competitive game.not because it would be an overpowered strategy.it would be a pointless strategy 'cause it would turn the game to simple luck games.
ever faced an incosistent team?they are not so hard to beat,but what is hard is seeing your opponent stalling for turns while you hope that they don't get evasion boosts.i don't know for you but me and i believe every decent player haven't lost the majority of games i have played against such teams...just the possibility that you could won with lucky boosts and not any skill involved banned them not the way that they were overpowerig the metagame...
and finally serene grace and effect spore are not unhealthy at all.you just say so without any reasoing so i am not going to argue on this one...
i want sand veil to be banned 'cause it puts unnecesary luck in the game with the only purpose of doing so not because it is used by good or bad pokes...if we go with the same way we could say that double team woudn't be broken on caterpie or on something that cannot abuse it so why ban the move on all pokes..we could just ban the other 200 pokes that can use the move to great effect.but we didn't do this we just banned the move!and so i belive we must do with evasion raising abilities.
it's not a matter of how broken sand veil is.it's a matter of principles as a competitive community.i haven't lost much times against garchomp 'cause of sand veil either but that doesn't mean that i don't think wtf is a purely evasion raising ability doing in the meta?
to me it is very similar to all the other things that have the sole purpose of creating luck.
it is true that sand veil cannot be directly compared to evasion raising moves 'cause if you want to have the evasion you must use the right weather but with 35% of the metagame being sand i don't see much difference.
why should we let effectively built teams lose 1 time every 10 battles just 'cause they missed once or twice against garchomp at a crucial point?it,s not broken but it's not healthy either...
Life Orb Cloyster can sometimes OHKO with Icicle Spear through Focus Sash, if I'm not mistaken (depending on the Deoxys-S set). Unless it sets up screens, then it's a 2HKO.
Just because you beat someone who was really bad at the game who used a stratgey does not mean that strategy is not absurdly good, or even that it is not broken. I could easily beat a team of ubers with a Sableye if my opponent just kept using Splash (I know, extreme example), but that wouldn't make those pokes not ubers
Jolly Cloyster's STAB Icicle Spear VS Deoxys-S: 15.35% - 18.67%
Total Damage: 74.69% - 88.38%
You have a 2% to OHKO with Stealth Rock. Too bad he's used as a lead.
Deoxys-S can easily OHKO back with Psycho Boost: 112.03% - 131.95%
I think he should be a suspect.
I use him and MH Taunters are pretty frail and can easily die to Psycho Boost so I can then just switch back in later and set up hazards.
He can do quite a crap ton of stuff.
He can support your team with quick hazards, screens, etc. and he can at as a revenge killer thanks to his decent 95 Attack and Sp.Attack stats.
He's also not AS frail as people make him out to be.
50/90/90 Defenses are just enough to take a hit and having a Focus Sash just kinda guarantees he's GOING to either kill something or set up a hazard.
And honestly, Xatu and Espeon aren't really that common, and MH Taunters, like I said, are pretty damn frail and probably wont survive a STAB Psycho Boost or even a Psychic.(MH Sableye isn't released yet so...)
Just try and stop him from setting up. It's not that easy.
Total Damage: 74.69% - 88.38%
You have a 2% to OHKO with Stealth Rock. Too bad he's used as a lead.
Deoxys-S can easily OHKO back with Psycho Boost: 112.03% - 131.95%
I think he should be a suspect.
I use him and MH Taunters are pretty frail and can easily die to Psycho Boost so I can then just switch back in later and set up hazards.
He can do quite a crap ton of stuff.
He can support your team with quick hazards, screens, etc. and he can at as a revenge killer thanks to his decent 95 Attack and Sp.Attack stats.
He's also not AS frail as people make him out to be.
50/90/90 Defenses are just enough to take a hit and having a Focus Sash just kinda guarantees he's GOING to either kill something or set up a hazard.
And honestly, Xatu and Espeon aren't really that common, and MH Taunters, like I said, are pretty damn frail and probably wont survive a STAB Psycho Boost or even a Psychic.(MH Sableye isn't released yet so...)
Just try and stop him from setting up. It's not that easy.
Ffs we already went over this.
If you dislike your Stone Edge missing, you can change it by being more conservative and using Rock Slide. If you dislike anything missing against Garchomp, you can't change it.
But Rock Slide is pretty much always inferior to Stone Edge.
So, if using inferior moves to prevent a miss is apparently viable, then one could argue that using Swift/Shadow Punch to hit Garchomp is viable.
After all, the same logic applies.
The point is, you would never use moves like Aerial Ace because they suck.
Just like how anything with Stone Edge would never use Rock Slide.
When have you ever seen someone "be conservative"?
Rock Slide is more reliable than Stone Edge in virtually all instances, making it a viable alternative, just like how there are many Pokemon that use Flamethrower instead of Fire Blast. Acrobat is just as reliable as Aerial Ace against everything without an Evasion boost.
True, if you use a Jolly nature. My numbers were with an Adamant nature, which probably isn't the most common set. And yeah you're right, Deoxys-S can OHKO back.
Well, if Cloyster has a LO, even Jolly has a really good chance to kill, but Deoxys-S, again can easily OHKO back :/
OK, I'll admit that the Zapdos example wasn't the best example, but it goes by a similar principle and it shows at least that Substitute spamming isn't exactly a novel strategy. In fact, I beat a Sub Garchomp earlier today... I've been finding Latios more threatening today. Also the genies are dicks, but we all knew that.
Has anyone else been finding that they're good with only one of their teams at a time?
Has anyone else been finding that they're good with only one of their teams at a time?
Also, there's no ice nevermiss move to still hit him SE. And the difference between Nevermiss moves and 100% acc moves (typically 60 versus 90-100, so roughly 50%) is a lot different than the difference between 100% acc and inacc (90-100 versus 120, 20-33%). Plus nevermiss moves are a lot less distributed than 100% acc moves (with the exception(s) of aerial ace and maybe swift, was it a tutor move last gen?
But that's the point. What's the difference between this and specifically running Hail, Rain or Sun to get rid of Sand Veil? Either way, you're running a mediocre replacement to more reliably defeat something (not to mention Rock Slide can miss too).
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