It just seems really unnecessary to run a "wall" without lefties that has only meh defenses just so you can have a slightly higher chance of not getting haxed out by a not-very-threatening poke
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Whimsicott
- Thread starter Manaphy
- Start date
I don't think the idea of a traditional counter really applies to Whimsicott; switching out isn't something it does out of fear, it does it because it's job is done. Sure, it can't really handle guys like Scizor and Ferrothorn very well, but Whimsicott doesn't really seem like the kind of pokemon you'd use if you intended to keep him out.
It makes more sense if you think about it like a less life-threatening Wobbuffet; you just use it for free turns and easy switch-ins. "Counter" is a term that would pretty much apply to any pokemon that could either kill it out-right, or wouldn't net free turns.
It makes more sense if you think about it like a less life-threatening Wobbuffet; you just use it for free turns and easy switch-ins. "Counter" is a term that would pretty much apply to any pokemon that could either kill it out-right, or wouldn't net free turns.
It doesn't matter WHY it switches out, whether it be by threatening a KO or by completely walling; if something can switch in and force it out, it's a counter. Not to mention that half of them are still sub-seeders, which can't do its job if its forced out.
Also, Encore won't net you any free turns if they switch to the Erufuun counter.
Either way, they got you to switch to their Erufuun counter, which in itself (with proper prediction) can at least let you switch in for free too. And I never said anything about Encore, Taunt can be just as effective(though admittedly, not against it's counters)
My point is, Erufuun doesn't really get 'forced out' by much if used right, unless you consider any pokemon you're scouting a counter; he's in like a yo-yo, either messes with their dude who's out or forces them to switch to a counter, and comes right back. If your planning on returning him because his job is done, I would hardly think the guy they thought they were cleaver in switching out to stop him would be worth calling a counter.
To put it more plainly, yes, Scizor is a pretty effective counter, because he doesn't care at ALL what Elfuun does. But, I fail to see where that's an issue, if your only plan with him was to send him in to encore a Dragon Dance or Bulk Up or whatever, and then to switch right back out, regardless of if they send out Scizor or not.
My point is, Erufuun doesn't really get 'forced out' by much if used right, unless you consider any pokemon you're scouting a counter; he's in like a yo-yo, either messes with their dude who's out or forces them to switch to a counter, and comes right back. If your planning on returning him because his job is done, I would hardly think the guy they thought they were cleaver in switching out to stop him would be worth calling a counter.
To put it more plainly, yes, Scizor is a pretty effective counter, because he doesn't care at ALL what Elfuun does. But, I fail to see where that's an issue, if your only plan with him was to send him in to encore a Dragon Dance or Bulk Up or whatever, and then to switch right back out, regardless of if they send out Scizor or not.
The thing is, this applies to a lot of walls/support. It's just a terminology thing; a "counter" is just anything that can switch in and force a switch, regardless of whether the other pokemon was sweeping / walling / "scouting-on-purpose"/ w/e.
Well, that's basically what every counter does; steals the momentum from you by getting a free move on your switch.
Basically, everything you're saying is true, but all of that applies to a great deal of other counters, really.
You know how a lot of these counters are beaten?
Via running PROTECT. Assuming it isn't a magic guard poké, you can wear things down by spamming Leech Seed with Protect to block U-turn. SR+2 turns of Leech Seed damage will mean Scizor/Genesect/Jirachi can only switch in a couple times before being worn down by leech seed damage. If you feel like overspecializing, you could even run Worry Seed and Toxic to beat magic guard pokemon via substitute stalling for toxic damage.
sub/toxic/leech seed/worry seed could work
Via running PROTECT. Assuming it isn't a magic guard poké, you can wear things down by spamming Leech Seed with Protect to block U-turn. SR+2 turns of Leech Seed damage will mean Scizor/Genesect/Jirachi can only switch in a couple times before being worn down by leech seed damage. If you feel like overspecializing, you could even run Worry Seed and Toxic to beat magic guard pokemon via substitute stalling for toxic damage.
sub/toxic/leech seed/worry seed could work
Ive tested worry seed up and down and i can't get past how situational it is. I'd rather have something like cotton guard or charm that screws over a much broader range of would-be checks. By the way, I could write a book on a cotton guard vs charm discussion.
Even with no investment to Erufuun's speed stat, Nattorei's Gyro Ball gets massive base power.
Erufuun has base 116 speed, and even with no investment this drops him somewhere in the range of 270 speed, vs Nattorei's 40 (0 EVs, 0 IVs, Speed hindering nature which all Nattorei running Gyro Ball should use).
I've done some calculations (using Starmie's nearly equivalent speed stat since I'm too lazy to find Erufuun's exact numbers), and unless I'm misunderstanding the Gyro Ball formula, it will have max base power, provided you aren't running a speed hindering nature AND fewer than 31 Speed IVs. Even if you were (which makes no sense), it would still have a very high base power.
If Nattorei doesn't run Gyro Ball then it doesn't threaten Erufuun in any way though.
It does less than 30% to my Erufuun and about 10% after a cotton guard.
It's kind of a moot point because:
a) You just switch out of Nattorei, and
b) Gyro Ball Nattorei is going the way of the dodo
It's kind of a moot point because:
a) You just switch out of Nattorei, and
b) Gyro Ball Nattorei is going the way of the dodo
Really? I've had nothing but excellent results from Worry Seed.
It works great against anything with Technician, Magic Guard (eat me Reuniclus, now I can seed-stall you), Poison Heal (eff you Gliscor), Guts, Serene Grace, Shadow Tag (this is fairly situational, admittedly but when you get it...).
I understand why you might want to run say, extra status, over Worry Seed but there is more than likely at least one Pokemon on any given team that gets severely handicapped by worry seed.
U-turn
That still breaks a sub.
You're right it isn't really that important, but it is important to note that Erufuun can basically only taunt Nattorei, while Nattorei actually has a way of dealing damage back.
a) agreed
b) ? whatever
hmm i might be bumping a somewhat dead thread but w.e.
to people saying scizor has limited switch-ins, that would only be true if you're running CB/LO Scizor. A specially defensive Scizor with Roost forces Uru out every time because even if it does try to protect stall you, you can roost up/ maybe even swords dance, then punish it/force it out.
Basically, you're going to have to mindgame it out. It's hella gay, but beatable.
to people saying scizor has limited switch-ins, that would only be true if you're running CB/LO Scizor. A specially defensive Scizor with Roost forces Uru out every time because even if it does try to protect stall you, you can roost up/ maybe even swords dance, then punish it/force it out.
Basically, you're going to have to mindgame it out. It's hella gay, but beatable.
This is based simply on my results of the storyline playthrough of White, but why, WHY has it not been mentioned to put Attract on any of these sets? Yes, I know it's pretty limited in use, as it only effects 1 gender out of the possible three, but most people don't pay that much attention to genders unless it's absolutely necessary. It's a bit of a gimmic and a risk, but in my experiance, ABSOLUTELY worth it. Attract AND stun-spore pretty much assures that they will never, EVER land a hit on you again, and makes them definitely think twice about off-gender switch-ins(especially if you troll hardcore and have something else with attract of whatever gender Whimsicott isn't).
I mean, to actually break it down, Stun Spore is better long-term but Attract is more likely to net a critical instant-switch. Attract is 100% accurate, but Stun Spore isn't gender dependant. Stun Spore lowers their speed, but Attract has a 50% chance of them doing nothing. Attract ultimately wins out, I think, once you factor that it can stack WITH stun-spore, as well as ANY other status, such as Toxic or Burn; that it's less expected, prepaired for, and resisted; and is altogether just really amusing.
I mean, to actually break it down, Stun Spore is better long-term but Attract is more likely to net a critical instant-switch. Attract is 100% accurate, but Stun Spore isn't gender dependant. Stun Spore lowers their speed, but Attract has a 50% chance of them doing nothing. Attract ultimately wins out, I think, once you factor that it can stack WITH stun-spore, as well as ANY other status, such as Toxic or Burn; that it's less expected, prepaired for, and resisted; and is altogether just really amusing.
That, and when using simulators, most pokemon are male, except for tasteful people and Female-only pokemon. Make a Female attract and I'm sure you'll be a hardcore troll (Genderless pokemon generally like speed, can't think of many that don't =/)
A strategy that only works if people haven't prepared their teams against it, when people can prepare their teams against it at no cost whatsoever, isn't a good strategy.
I think I speak for anyone who has ever faced this little dude that the set should be named EruFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.
How exactly would, say, a kangaskhan, avoid an attract from a male Whimsicott? This isn't a gimmic stratagy to punish people for not selecting genders in online simulators; there are others ways to play pokemon, that don't involve free choice of gender. And again, how exactly would one prepair against having two opposite-gender attracters?
Every pokemon with a gender can learn it. Female Prankster Whimsicott, Male Prankster Sableye. Unless you plan on running a team of all genderless pokemon (who Cryogonal can attract, if you really want to punch holes), I fail to see where you're assuming the idea of attract is something that is only effective if you're exploiting people's negligence in selecting a gender.
I don't really play pokemon online, so to me, this wasn't really an issue, I appoligize.
Every pokemon with a gender can learn it. Female Prankster Whimsicott, Male Prankster Sableye. Unless you plan on running a team of all genderless pokemon (who Cryogonal can attract, if you really want to punch holes), I fail to see where you're assuming the idea of attract is something that is only effective if you're exploiting people's negligence in selecting a gender.
I don't really play pokemon online, so to me, this wasn't really an issue, I appoligize.
It's not about individual Pokemon. If you have a female Whimsicott use Attract on one of my male Pokemon, I'll switch to a female Pokemon. If you have a male Whimsicott use Attract on one of my female Pokemon, I'll switch to a male Pokemon. Either way, any competent player should have multiple Pokemon that are immune to the Attracts of any one Pokemon, and therefore can be sent out against that Pokemon to render the move completely useless.
That's what I'm saying though, it forces you not only to switch, first and foremost, which is the main intention; essentially a whirlwind. But to add to that, it makes you switch into something that must be immune to that move. If your typical whimsicott counter is male, and I happen to run a female with attract, you're probably less likely to throw it right in.
If your only criteria now is to avoid attract by throwing in a same-gender pokemon, it may limit your options, and perhaps even cause a play-mistake (and I've seen enough competative pokemon to know that prediction/play-mistakes are the core of what determines win/loss if both teams are well-built). It's not a perfect stratagy, and not fool-proof, but very little in pokemon can be because there are so many options. Toxic isn't considered bad just because Steel render it completely useless, is it?
At worst, it should prove to be just as effective in forcing a switch as taunt, encore, or stun-spore, with slightly variable opportunity.
Sorry for all these text-walls, guys. I just hate seeing the power of this bugger to jam teams up wasted on nothing but encore spam and sub-seed, when he really has plenty of options that make prediction much more difficult.
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Didn't want to double-post, just curious; would running Hurricane on Whimsicott on a rain-team be an alright option? I'm not a big fan of U-turn, and I wanted it to have at least one attack; and hurricane gets pefect accuracy in the rain. Just a thought, any input?
to all those who doubt whimsicott!! he has won games for me. he may have alot of counters but people dont expect him. its so fun to toxic or leech seed then sub up to stay in the battle and encore a fake out. honestly encore fake out its so much fun. =]
Ok two sets which i have made.
Erufuun (Level 5) @ micle berry
Grasswhistle
Leech Seed
Substitute
Endeavor
Substitute until your micle berry activates, use grasswhistle, then commence to use leech seed to restore your health, sub seed stall until your opponent becomes too annoyed and messes up, then use endeavor to KO. then repeat.
Erufuun @ Leftovers
12 HP / 248 Def/ 248 Sp Def
Bold Nature
Hurricane
Leech Seed
Substitute
Encore
Use this on rain teams. Erufuun can now deal with the grass types which it could not have dealt with before. Hurricane can make use of erufuuns amazing speed and decent special attack , as well as presenting the possibility of confusion to prevent recovery.
Encore can help erufuun setup on stat boosters.
Erufuun (Level 5) @ micle berry
Grasswhistle
Leech Seed
Substitute
Endeavor
Substitute until your micle berry activates, use grasswhistle, then commence to use leech seed to restore your health, sub seed stall until your opponent becomes too annoyed and messes up, then use endeavor to KO. then repeat.
Erufuun @ Leftovers
12 HP / 248 Def/ 248 Sp Def
Bold Nature
Hurricane
Leech Seed
Substitute
Encore
Use this on rain teams. Erufuun can now deal with the grass types which it could not have dealt with before. Hurricane can make use of erufuuns amazing speed and decent special attack , as well as presenting the possibility of confusion to prevent recovery.
Encore can help erufuun setup on stat boosters.
Has anybody thought of using him with like Sunny Day or something to screw over Sand and Rain teams?
Tyranitar/Hippowdon/Politoed can simply just switch out and then back in again to bring back their weather.
