Mmmmm, do you have pre-ban usage stats? Theorymon is great and all, but we're all aware of the nothing-is-a-complete-counter-anymore and w/e logic. Stats on the other hand, would be nice to show if any of the reasoning actually applied, which simply doesn't occur often enough, IMO.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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Mmmmm, do you have pre-ban usage stats? Theorymon is great and all, but we're all aware of the nothing-is-a-complete-counter-anymore and w/e logic. Stats on the other hand, would be nice to show if any of the reasoning actually applied, which simply doesn't occur often enough, IMO.
I get what you are saying, and that is why I generally only argue in logic terms, especially now, when there are no usage stats. OHKO moves work regardless of pokemon (besides Sturdy pokes), and evasion works similarly. Once more, I'd be willing to explain my reasoning on these subjects, albeit in not an expansive amount of detail.
Speaking of Sturdy, it has become one of my favorite answers to Sun.
Most people might think Skarmory is weak to Sun teams. However, sun teams probably have the hardest time out of all three when it comes to setting up SR, which means Skarmory's Sturdy is usually intact. Because of this, Skarmory can always Brave Bird the three top sun threats: Venusaur, Volcarona, and Blaziken, all super effectively, and in my experience always OHKOs them.
Forry also does the same with Gyro Ball but it only does notable damage against Venusaur
Most people might think Skarmory is weak to Sun teams. However, sun teams probably have the hardest time out of all three when it comes to setting up SR, which means Skarmory's Sturdy is usually intact. Because of this, Skarmory can always Brave Bird the three top sun threats: Venusaur, Volcarona, and Blaziken, all super effectively, and in my experience always OHKOs them.
Forry also does the same with Gyro Ball but it only does notable damage against Venusaur
I believe your first arguments have been thoroughly debunked by the posts since this one. As for my goal... no, I don't think I'll convince everyone. My goal is to get the combination nominated, and to see what happens from there. A part of this goal will likely require getting the attention of PR before that happens, to have them determine whether or not this combination can even be nominated. There was a discussion thread started regarding the matter, but unfortunately it was locked before anyone could get to that particular issue.
For your other statements, as I have stated multiple times, Gen 4 Gliscor is not restricted to using Sand Veil. It can also use Hyper Cutter. The only Pokemon that would be in any way restricted by such a ban are Garchomp, Cacturne, and Sandslash, and the latter two are of limited concern.
As I have also stated before, even if use of Garchomp on a sand team is for the purposes of strategy, not Evasion abuse, any player who puts Garchomp on a sand team is inherently abusing Evasion every time they bring it out. And it would also be false to say that Evasion moves and OHKO moves do not add any strategy in terms of teambuilding. As others have explained, they can be used to allow a Pokemon to have a shot at beating almost any of its counters indiscriminately, which can be put to use. However, this option was deemed undesirable for the metagame.
That would be foolish and irresponsible of me.
No seriously, give it a rest. Everyone's tired of seeing this stupid argument over and over again. I'm sure you have better things to do with your time as well.
If you're so very adamant about the issue, then why don't you just nominate it yourself, or create a different thread on the issue? If people actually care to make this stuff suspect, they'll tag along and nominate it too. If they don't nominate it, then guess what, they don't share your opinion. Throwing the same argument out there over and over again isn't going to make people somehow agree with you. Just present the argument once in the nomination thread. Not a million billion times in this thread.
I don't think that the Shell Smash Moody Octillery example is valid. The big flaw is that it takes the statement that Shell Smash Moody Octillery wouldn't (or shouldn't) change the situation, but it assumes entirely the wrong reason for that. From a purely general perspective, there's no reason not to retest it to see if it's broken (if indeed people don't think that Moody is inherently broken). However, the very nature of Moody suggests that it would be more of the same. Bringing this up repeatedly in general is bordering on threadhogging, which detracts from the discussion going on.
Also, apparently I'm not the only one who's feeling the hax drops. Last night, I watched as TheFourthChaser went from req level to near my current rating from continuous well-timed hax. This rating system is stupid -.- (Yeah, I look at my rating now, but only before and after laddering. The variation figures in each battle are already demoralizing.)
Also, apparently I'm not the only one who's feeling the hax drops. Last night, I watched as TheFourthChaser went from req level to near my current rating from continuous well-timed hax. This rating system is stupid -.- (Yeah, I look at my rating now, but only before and after laddering. The variation figures in each battle are already demoralizing.)
Last time I laddered, I won four straight battles in a row and my ranking actually went down. I'm not sure I understand the rating system too much.
On another note, has anyone been using luster purge on latios at all? The 50% chance to drop special defense would be worth it, I assumed, to otherwise knock what would normally switch into you a few pegs down.
On another note, has anyone been using luster purge on latios at all? The 50% chance to drop special defense would be worth it, I assumed, to otherwise knock what would normally switch into you a few pegs down.
The main things that would switch into a latios can already be beaten without -1 Sp Def, it's a matter of using the right move (Blissey- psycho shock, ttar- surf, scizor- hp fire, natty - hp fire). The only thing that the -1 sp def would help with is maybe specially defensive rachi, who you would still be 3hkoing anyway with luster purge + 2 hp fires (instead of 3 HP fires). In that time it is paralyzing you and flinchaxing you... yeah not good.
Just wanted to ask a question. Why is it that I never see any Wobbs? He's not Uber atm, so I assumed everyone would use him. I haven't seen ONE, which is strange. Blissey can pass him massive amounts of health while he switches in on her fighting weakness. He can also easily let sweepers like Blaziken and Gyarados set up.
Off to make a Wobb team
Off to make a Wobb team
I presume it's the Encore nerf. It only lasts 3 turns now, which dosen't allow that much setup.
Not to mention, whereas Heracross was the only thing that could really OHKO Wobb before, loads of things are going to be severely hurting it, or outright killing it now [+ 2 Excadrill/Landos, anyone?]. It's just not broken anymore.
Also, I haven't seen a single DDDos since Gen 4. Gyarados is almost exclusivly used as a RestTalker now, from my experiance.
You're telling me... those +8 -20 battles are almost always losses due to a lucky crit or a miss.
I hate them. You can't even do anything about it since the minimum difference you can put is 200.
What happened to those nice +15 -15 battles? :(
^agreed, Dont you hate trying out a new team with a +21 -61 variation that you get haxed for the loss? I really wish coyotte reverted the minimum difference, even to +/- 150.
Is anyone else having trouble against Sigilyph. I'll admit that its not used much because Reuniclus is hogging all the spot light but for the times that I do see it, it's a pain in the ass. It doesn't have near as much bulk and SpA as Reuniclus but what it does have it excells in. For instance Sigilyph has a much better movepool than Reuniclus which gives it a niche over it's bulky brother in it's main set. It's main set, the Psycho Shift is an absolute bitch to take down. When you actually think about it, Psycho Shift and Magic Guard allow it to set up on both offensive and stall teams with impunity. It also has much higher base speed (97) which while is a haxy number for game freak allows it to outspeed Reuniclus' major enemy Tyranitar in almost all that it does. (Of course you'd have to exclude the Scarf Set.) This means you cant switch in on Sigilyph with anything but the scarf set lest you wanna get burned. Even if you were to come in with your scarf tar there are 2 moves you cant go in on. Those being Pyscho Shift and Cosmic Power. Psycho Shift is a given but Cosmic Power allows Sigilyph to survive your crunch, use Psycho Shift, and roost off whatever limited damage you'll be giving it. Reuniclus' most major check is flat out useless against Sigilyph how do you like that. I would really like to know if there's a check for this thing so I can use it and finally start winning against this spawn of hell.
What about Bisharp? Sure, Cofagrigus has an annoying 145 Base Def., but with Hone Claws and Shadow Claw, and the Drk-Stl typing, Bisharp has the ability to take anything Cofagrigus throws at it, even Wil-O-Wisp, and take it out in 2-3 turns. But if you're REALLY concerned about getting burned, Heatran might be a viable option, as you can switch into a Wil-O-Wisp, and pound back with a 180 Power Fire Blast and be able to resist Cofagrigus' Ghost- and Dark-type attacks
Cofagrigus =/= Sigilyph
Sigilyph is Psychic/Flying, doesn't have 145 Defense, and has 97 Speed.
Sigilyph? I got your 100% guarenteed counter/check to him right here.
Thunderos used Thunder!
Critical Hit!
Sigilyph fainted!
Heatran used Fire Blast!
Critical hit!
Sigilyph fainted!
Sigilyph used cosmic power!
Octillery used Water Spout!
Critical hit!
Sigilyph fainted!
Tangrowth used Rock Slide!
Critical hit!
Sigilyph fainted!
All the fucking time. Every user of Sigilyph hasn't only experienced this once. It happens every two matches. I wish sigilyph learned lucky chant or something, because it gets a little ridiculous after a while.
In any case, most sigils only carry assist power as their only attack. Some carry air slash. Roar them out with bulky pokes like Heatran and Latias. Dragon Tail Tyranitar also works since it can't do much outside of burning you. Skarmory can use Whirlwind. Steelix can use Roar/Dragontail. The list goes on. He isn't all that bulky without the calm minds, so kill him off when he comes back in and tries to set up.
Funny. His most common moveset is walled by Houndoom. Speaking of which, I've been critted by one of them before.
Thunderos used Thunder!
Critical Hit!
Sigilyph fainted!
Heatran used Fire Blast!
Critical hit!
Sigilyph fainted!
Sigilyph used cosmic power!
Octillery used Water Spout!
Critical hit!
Sigilyph fainted!
Tangrowth used Rock Slide!
Critical hit!
Sigilyph fainted!
All the fucking time. Every user of Sigilyph hasn't only experienced this once. It happens every two matches. I wish sigilyph learned lucky chant or something, because it gets a little ridiculous after a while.
In any case, most sigils only carry assist power as their only attack. Some carry air slash. Roar them out with bulky pokes like Heatran and Latias. Dragon Tail Tyranitar also works since it can't do much outside of burning you. Skarmory can use Whirlwind. Steelix can use Roar/Dragontail. The list goes on. He isn't all that bulky without the calm minds, so kill him off when he comes back in and tries to set up.
Funny. His most common moveset is walled by Houndoom. Speaking of which, I've been critted by one of them before.
To be honest, Sigilyph gets critted every game is because if you're going for +6/+6, that's essentially 6 chances to crit him - that's the biggest fault with trying to set up Cosmic Powers with anything is that, as opposed to setting up on the offensive, you're allowing your opponent chances to hit you and crit you.
But yeah it does suck when you get critted.
But yeah it does suck when you get critted.
Ok so this set has counters. Namely Heatran and Houndoom who resist and negate Assist Power and dont take burn damage (Sigilyph can use Toxic Orb in which case Houndoom would be excluded.)
I'm assuming you categorize any kind of bulky setup the same way, but even so, you should only get critted every 3 out of 8 matches. That is almost half the time, so it certainly explains how Sigilyph users feel like they're being critted every other battle. I guess it's just the same answer you see everywhere; you have to take out your counters before you sweep (or in this case, take out hard-hitting Pokemon before you start setting up).
Have been playing some more on the ladder and I have problems getting around Wobba, and that's about it (Don't see him much though).
Apart from Wobba...........I don't have much problems with any other Pokemon like Latios, or Landlos.
Apart from Wobba...........I don't have much problems with any other Pokemon like Latios, or Landlos.
![Requiem[9]](/forums/data/avatars/m/38/38887.jpg?1514734517){kind=avatar}
About Garchomp: I don't mind the occasional Sand Veil miss when I'm playing against it and I don't think it's overpowered even with the immunity to ice, but can we at least add Substitute + Sand Veil/Snow Cloak and Brightpower + Sand Veil/Snow Cloak to evasion clause if just removing the ability is impossible? While not minor, 20%'s not major and I'm okay missing the occasional HP Ice on Scarfchomp. At the same time, I'm really annoyed by players going out of their way to abuse the miss chance. It's a bit of a complicated ban, I guess, but I think it's a "least we can do" sort of thing if Garchomp is too cool to ban. Sand Veil + SS and Sand Veil entirely are kind of stupid.
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