TBH, I'd think there's at least an advantage in that it satisfies a lot of people without creating any significant outcry by Brightpowder users themselves, and that's at least something there. It may not change the metagame much, but it makes the community a little happier overall.
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
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TBH, I'd think there's at least an advantage in that it satisfies a lot of people without creating any significant outcry by Brightpowder users themselves, and that's at least something there. It may not change the metagame much, but it makes the community a little happier overall.
shrang, the same thing could be applied to ohko and evasion moves as well. Only a very small amount of players would ever use them(just like brightpowder) as they are effectively a waste of move slot(just like brightpowder is a waste of an item slot). However we still have clauses in place to ban them from the meta. Its not because its broken, but its because it does not create a desirable metagame by reducing the skill required and increasing the luck factor.
Yeah the same can be said about Sand veil and snow cloak but that can be avoided by removing sand from the field/carrying more than one check to the abusing pokemon(just like jirachi's flinchax can be stopped using something thats faster than it).
Also most of the people in this thread should consider Aeroblacktyl's advice
j/s
Yeah the same can be said about Sand veil and snow cloak but that can be avoided by removing sand from the field/carrying more than one check to the abusing pokemon(just like jirachi's flinchax can be stopped using something thats faster than it).
Also most of the people in this thread should consider Aeroblacktyl's advice
j/s
I think the main issue people are having here is not the item in question, though that does give light to larger debates about evasion as a whole. The problem is the fact that an item which is not overcentralising or even widely used is being banned, when most people assume the precedent is that something has to making a significant effect on the metagame for it to be considered. It does nothing to assure people that voters aren't just voting for what they like personally, over the metagame as a whole - nor does it assure the community bans like this won't just keep happening repeatedly until the metagame is warped beyond recognition.
Also, considering combo bans are now precedented, why not do the obvious and just ban it on evasion-based abilities? I find it unlikely people will protest that.
Also, considering combo bans are now precedented, why not do the obvious and just ban it on evasion-based abilities? I find it unlikely people will protest that.
In any case it adds an undesirable amount of luck to the game which cannot be avoided, and which most voters found non-competitive. Yes it is only a 10% boost but when we are aiming to create the most balanced and competitive metagame possible which is desirable to most of the players it is only right that we ban it. Doing so doesn't necessarily make the community ban-happy or anything, and imo this ban should have been placed a long time ago.
An at least 30% chance to instantly take out an opponent's poke/s and a stackable boost that makes you near impossible to hit aren't broken? OHKO and Evasion boosting is broken, that's why they were banned.
In any case, the only thing I really do not like at all this generation is Latios and maybe the weather changers Politoed and Ninetales. Most Latios tend to be stupidly annoying Choice variants that basically require me to run a bulky steel lest it kills you in 12 turns with Draco Meteor abuse. Even then that's prone to failure.
As for Ninetales and Politoed, there's nothing wrong with them, per se, but it seems as though you absolutely need to carry a weather changer of your own unless you want them to have a major advantage from turn 1, whether it be a Ninetales or Politoed of your own, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, or maybe even Abomasnow.
As for Ninetales and Politoed, there's nothing wrong with them, per se, but it seems as though you absolutely need to carry a weather changer of your own unless you want them to have a major advantage from turn 1, whether it be a Ninetales or Politoed of your own, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, or maybe even Abomasnow.
You could argue the same for Tyranitar and Hippowdon this generation, considering things like Landos and Excadrill.
And, the only real advantage rain gets is the STAB boost now. Rain Stall happens to have vanished off the face of the earth from what I've seen, because there isn't Rain offense everywhere to give Parasect a free switch-in. [I did say it wasn't really viable, it was just anti-meta].
I've never even seen anyone use Hydra-rest Vaporeon/Lapras. [Any other user isn't even worth mentioning] Rain is FAR from broken with SS+Drizzle combo-banned.
Now, Sun does give a massive advantage, but it is manageable. No-one is running in fear of Grass STAB, except, ironically, opposing weather. And Boosted Fire STAB hurts, but there's no speed bonuses. Blaziken is what makes Sun so dangerous right now, and Blaziken is suspect in it's own right, let alone in the sun.
Now, to my opinions on the pokemon suspects:
Blaziken: Needs to go. One turn is all it needs, to abuse BP 120+ STAB moves, with excellent coverage, while outspeeding... virtually everything. Then there's MixKen, or Blaziken who use Swords Dance [Because almost everyone expects Protect...]. Not to mention Blaziken under the sun, which boosts his Fire STAB even more, AND removes his weakness to water. Azumarill can no longer check him... that's one down from a VERY short list. The fact that Im given trouble by Blaziken, even when running a Rain team... shows just how bad he is.
Deoxys-E: I've had no issues with him, personally. He can set up hazards. Big woop. So can Nattorei, and he can do other things sucessfully besides. And no, Nattorei being slow and tauntable isn't *that* much of a point considering Mischevious Heart, and most other things that use Taunt, such as Gliscor, are not *massive* fans of Gyro Balls/Power Whips. *Especially now most Gliscor run Poision Heal, so no Roost*
Then there's Mischevious Heart, Magic Mirror, and the decline of Spinblockers.
Excadrill: I run a Rain team, and Azumarill, so my team is Anti-Dory, but Azumarill and Conkeldurr both easily check Excadrill.
Latios: DRACO METEOR! *Everything common in the metagame except Ferrothron, Jirachi, Skarmory and Excadrill dies instantly*
*Switches out, woe betide you if they have Magnezone*
*Comes back in first chance it gets*
DRACO METEOR! *Your Steel type dies*
Proceed DM spam all over your team.
Latios needs to go.
Reuniclus: Ive not seen that many. It demolishes Stall, and Trick Room varients are good against HO [But worse against Stall]. However, I don't think it's broken. It may wind up Uber because it destroys stall, which has been the 'top teir' playstyle for the last 3 generations, but maybe Stall is just not 1st place anymore?
Thundurus: Not broken in the least bit. The worst it can do is run a Nasty Plot set, and even then, it's rather frail, and SR weak. Priority *cough, Azumarill* finishes off weakned ones, and you just smack it in the face when it sets up. IMO, Tornadus in the rain is worse.
this has been answered several times but because you don't seem to read it i will tell it to you once again...
evasion raising moves are worth using only once 'cause the boost gets smaller every time and the turns that you spend boosting aren't worth it 'cause you could have done much better things...
what do you prefer a +6 evasion volcarona or a +6/6/6 sp.atc,sp.def,speed volcarona?a +6 evasion ononokusu or a +6/+6 atc,speed ononokusu?a +6 evasion conkelldur or a +6/+6 atc/def conkelldur?i could continue forever but i think you get my point..i would chose the second second case any day soon...!
evasion raising moves are not broken just annoying and uncopetitive...that's why they were banned!you need to understand that...
you say all the time that a poke with many evasion boosts is nearly invincible...
isn't the same true with almost every poke that can set up and has no priority weaknesses?
how are you going to get all these turns to raise your evasion so much?
you can tell me that you will get them 'cause the opponent will be missing but that doesn't happen often...and when i say that it doesn't happen too often,i mean that it happens rare enough that it is not worth abusing it...
you are better of abusing better stat raising move like dd or bd...
DRACO METEOR! *You switch in a death fodder pokémon*
*Latios kills it, but is now at -2 SAtk*
*Volcarona switches in*
I believe the amount of pokémon which can abuse the -2 side effect of Draco Meteor makes Latios not broken this time. Then again, I use Volcarona in one team, Tyranitar+Ferrothorn in another and Tornadus in yet another one, so...
I accept your point, but Latios at -2 but with choice specs still KO's Volcarona with SR unless the moth carries a fairly significant amount of HP or SpD.
Im having fun with this metagame.
Then again, one of my favorite metagames was that of G/S/C when, God forbid all of this suspect testing/complaining BS had existed poor Snorlax would have been banned.
You dont know what over-centralization means until you play competitive G/S/C.
Absolutely fun times.
Then again, one of my favorite metagames was that of G/S/C when, God forbid all of this suspect testing/complaining BS had existed poor Snorlax would have been banned.
You dont know what over-centralization means until you play competitive G/S/C.
Absolutely fun times.
There's a fine line between an overcentralized metagame and a productively focused one. It sounds like the GSC metagame falls under the latter, and I would say the current metagame also falls under the latter. Latios, Blaziken, and the weather wars focus the metagame. They don't create problems with it.
Because you can't switch in Scizor, Escavalier, Metagross, or Tyranitar to trap it with Pursuit and kill it, or use the momentun you get switching in your steel type to make it harder for Latios to come in scott-free (Jirachi can U-Turn out of Magnezone, and switching it into Excadrill is risky 'cause if you mispredict and they attack on the turn Zone comes out you've lost your balloon and will definitely die to EQ), or revenge kill it with faster pokemon (Chlorophyll mons and Excadrill in sand, Scarf Garchump, Tornadus, Thundurous, maybe even Gengar, Azelf, or, if you're weird like that, Accelgor, etc etc), am I right?
Latios is strong, there's no denying that, and even I am on the fence on whether or not it is too strong for OU, but you are greatly oversimplifying how matches with it go and are ignoring many possible solutions to keeping it from running over your team.
Also is switching Excadrill into DM even a good idea in the first place? 'Cause like, CB Escavalier's Megahorn knocks off like 75% of its HP so I'd assume Specs DM would do comparable damage.
To those who believe the effectiveness of Evasion-causing abilities is not enough to warrant further extension of Evasion Clause:
Tell me, which is better? And by how much?
Block or Shadow Tag?
Magnet Rise or Levitate?
Transform or Imposter?
Agility or Speed Boost?
Telekinesis or No Guard?
Foresight or Scrappy?
Magic Coat or Magic Bounce?
Recover or Regenerator?
Rain Dance or Drizzle?
Refresh or Natural Cure / Shed Skin?
Swords Dance or Pure Power / Huge Power?
Gastro Acid or Mold Breaker / Mummy?
Acupressure or Moody?
Role Play or Trace?
Haze or Unaware?
Charm or Intimidate?
Nightmare or Bad Dreams?
Work Up or Download / Sheer Force?
Spite or Pressure?
Endure or Sturdy?
When the team contains the corresponding permanent-weather ability with which to activate the latter, which is better? And by how much?
Agility or Swift Swim / Chlorophyll / Sand Rush?
Aqua Ring or Rain Dish / Ice Body?
Refresh or Hydration?
Double Team or Sand Veil / Snow Cloak?
Tell me, which is better? And by how much?
Block or Shadow Tag?
Magnet Rise or Levitate?
Transform or Imposter?
Agility or Speed Boost?
Telekinesis or No Guard?
Foresight or Scrappy?
Magic Coat or Magic Bounce?
Recover or Regenerator?
Rain Dance or Drizzle?
Refresh or Natural Cure / Shed Skin?
Swords Dance or Pure Power / Huge Power?
Gastro Acid or Mold Breaker / Mummy?
Acupressure or Moody?
Role Play or Trace?
Haze or Unaware?
Charm or Intimidate?
Nightmare or Bad Dreams?
Work Up or Download / Sheer Force?
Spite or Pressure?
Endure or Sturdy?
When the team contains the corresponding permanent-weather ability with which to activate the latter, which is better? And by how much?
Agility or Swift Swim / Chlorophyll / Sand Rush?
Aqua Ring or Rain Dish / Ice Body?
Refresh or Hydration?
Double Team or Sand Veil / Snow Cloak?
I would also like to mention Snorlax walks all over it.
Unlike a lot of threats many people are complaining about, Latios has real counters. Not these make-believe counters that are ruined on switch.
Many things add an unnecessary amount of luck to the game. But just because it doesn't actively help the meta be better doesn't mean we should have the right to ban it.
All other things which you are referring to add only a reasonable amount of luck, and at the same time add a reasonable amount of strategy.
Evasion, in any form, does not add strategy.
So using Thunder Wave in hopes of getting a 25% hax chance is so different than using a crappy item in hopes of getting a 10% hax chance? You clearly don't care whatsoever about actually making points if you deny the fact that they are essentiallythe same chance. By using Brightpowder, you abandon all recovery/make yourself far weaker, all for a really low hax chance. That's what's known as strategy. Honestly, debating this is like debating a tape recorder.
You don't use Thunder Wave in hopes of getting hax; you use it to drastically lower your opponent's Speed. I've explained this at least three times to you already. The only reason we keep debating the same points here is that you refuse to accept that effects other than Evasion have more to them than hax.
Also, would you care to respond to my earlier post? I had you in mind in particular when writing it.
Players use Thunder Wave because it drops speed and gives a 25% chance of a free turn. It also doesn't take away from an item slot (which is more essential than a fourth move slot). You can't compare that to 10% hax items that remove advantages from your character.
Using Lax Incense is not strategical because it holds no beneficial gains for the user. They're be better off using something else. However, Thunder Wave has huge benefits.
you t-wave 'cause you want to paralyze the poke,you know cutting its speed to 1/4,not only for parahax.
and yes they are different 'cause the first one requires you to do something and the other doesn't...you must use t-wave but brightpowder is a passive effect so it cannot be avoided...
even if the chance is 10% it is unfair to win or get a large benefit 'cause of evasion.
and i also like the fact how you ignore posts that aren't convenient for you...including my earlier post!
Guys. Choice Specs Latios is NOT the only Latios set!
*Latios comes in*
Lol, look at this fool. Well, I'll just switch in Skarmory to shrug off the draco meteor and roost it off.
Latios used Calm Mind!
Rain continues to fall.
Latios used Thunder!
Choice Specs Draco meteor is actually manageable. The non specs sets are the deadliest ones. The guy can set up screens and isn't exactly a frail piece of paper. I run CM+LO on a rain team and the only things he runs into that trouble him are the STAB sucker punchers and tyranitar, whom I STILL beat with screens.
He's not the one trick pony everybody believes him to be. And with team preview, even the choice specs sets shouldn't be tossing out draco meteors when they see your specially defensive or bulky steel around. On the choice specs sets by the way, he's isn't exactly setup fodder for everything after using draco meteor. The list of pokemon who set up on him at -2 isn't as long as some make it out to be. Especially if your opponent happens to be running something ridiculous, like dragon plate draco meteor + psych up.
I'm not calling him broken. But everyone seems to under the belief that his use ends at choice specs. As already mentioned, Latios on rain teams is a monster. Walled by a grand total of two pokemon.
Thankfully, scarf users handle it well. Good thing I use tailwind tornadus for late game shenanigans! And to think, that crap is what got me to the rank in my sig before ladders reset.
*Latios comes in*
Lol, look at this fool. Well, I'll just switch in Skarmory to shrug off the draco meteor and roost it off.
Latios used Calm Mind!
Rain continues to fall.
Latios used Thunder!
Choice Specs Draco meteor is actually manageable. The non specs sets are the deadliest ones. The guy can set up screens and isn't exactly a frail piece of paper. I run CM+LO on a rain team and the only things he runs into that trouble him are the STAB sucker punchers and tyranitar, whom I STILL beat with screens.
He's not the one trick pony everybody believes him to be. And with team preview, even the choice specs sets shouldn't be tossing out draco meteors when they see your specially defensive or bulky steel around. On the choice specs sets by the way, he's isn't exactly setup fodder for everything after using draco meteor. The list of pokemon who set up on him at -2 isn't as long as some make it out to be. Especially if your opponent happens to be running something ridiculous, like dragon plate draco meteor + psych up.
I'm not calling him broken. But everyone seems to under the belief that his use ends at choice specs. As already mentioned, Latios on rain teams is a monster. Walled by a grand total of two pokemon.
Thankfully, scarf users handle it well. Good thing I use tailwind tornadus for late game shenanigans! And to think, that crap is what got me to the rank in my sig before ladders reset.
Shadow Tag.
In most cases Levitate, unless the pokemon in question has a better ability to warrant the use Magnet Rise (Why bother using Magnezone if it didn't have Magnet Pull?).
Imposter, unless you're playing doubles (I remember running an uber team with Transform Mew and Scarf Kyogre that resulted in double STAB Water Spout spam. Good times.)
Speed boost, although Agility does give you more speed faster.
Purely from a singles standpoint, No Guard, although it is possible Telekinesis may have some other uses in doubles for helping pokemon with ground weaks on teams that like to spam EQ, or if you don't want to run Gravity but want to use moves with less acc, etc etc (although I guess this is getting away from what you're trying to prove).
Scrappy
Magic Bounce
This is debatable in my opinion. Regenerator allows you to switch around more freely and helps mitigate the damage from entry hazards but you need to actually switch out to activate its effects, meaning you can't just sit there stalling a pokemon or perhaps you risk losing momentum trying to heal your pokemon. Recover doesn't help you switch in easier but it does heal more health and can be used whenever you want, meaning you don't have to switch out making it preferable for stat-up sweepers. They are both very good but they work differently so I don't think they're comparable.
Well, that depends. Drizzle is better in most situations, but if you want to abuse Swift Swimmers then RD is preferable for obvious reasons. Not to mention that RD can be stuck on any pokemon in order to change the weather--whether it be to start up rain again if Politoed goes down or to forcibly change the weather against certain teams (although you'd probably run Hail for that--and you don't have to risk bring one pokemon in over and over to nullify opposing weather. So yes, I'd say Drizzle is better but Rain Dance has its merits.
Again, this kind of depends. On a stat up sweeper, it'd go Shed Skin > Refresh > Natural Cure in my opinion. A wall would want the abilities, but Heal Bell or Aromatherapy would be preferable to Refresh any day of the weak and, depending on your team, those two abilities as well.
Pure Power/ Huge Power
Mummy can actually come back to bite you in the ass if you're not careful and since it only activates on certain attacks you can't invoke it whenever you wish. As for Mold Breaker vs Gastro Acid, Mold Breaker again is preferable in singles but Gastro Acid has the additional benefit of helping your team get rid of annoying abilities (did you see that triples warstory TheMaskedNitpicker posted the other day? It showcases how Gastro Acid could be effective there as you could see by his removing Truant from his Slaking and also crippling an enemy Machamp). Also consider that Mold Breaker only nullifies abilities that prevent certain attacks, whereas Gastro Acid erases ALL abilities. Mold Breaker will not prevent that opposing Haxorus from EQing your Bronzong; Gastro Acid will. Mold Breaker will not stop that Gliscor from stalling you with Poison Heal; Gastro Acid will. Mold Breaker will not stop that CM Reuniclus from shrugging off Toxic; Gastro Acid will. Et cetra et cetra.
Moody I suppose, but again I would contend that Acupressure does have an advantage in doubles in that you can use it on your allies, not to mention it doesn't carry the risk of lowering your stats (can't end up with +2 acc -1 Def, or +2 Sp. Att -1 Acc, etc etc)
Trace, unless you're playing multibattles and you want to guarantee you get the right ability.
That kinda depends. Unaware will negate the advantage of heavily-boosted pokemon, but if they kill your Unaware pokemon all their boosts are back and you're SOL, whereas Haze forces them to start over no matter what, even if you eat it. It also destroys BP chains better than Unaware due to Ingrain.
Intimidate
Bad Dreams
I would say Work Up. Download gives you an instant boost, yes, but what you get is out of your control and it's either one or the other. Work Up allows you to increase both stats at once which I would say is better for mixed sweepers, not to mention you can use it more than once for increased power whereas with Download you get one boost once and that's it.
Pressure though they both suck.
Sturdy
The abilities, I would assume, although you are adding in another variable that is allowing those abilities to shine (if the weather gets nullified all the moves instantly become better than the abilities) so it is possible that auto-weather itself could be a confound.
So yes, in most cases, the abilities are better than the moves, although I would say many of the moves have their merits. We also run into the problem that we have a potential confound with auto-weather, and for Sand Veil/ Snow Cloak specifically we have to determine if it activates so often and is so detrimental to the metagame to potentially screw over a bunch of pokemon with said ability by banning them.
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