Wouldn't it just be easier to put Speed Boost Blaziken in Ubers(which I'm assuming it will be put there) and leave Blaze Blaziken in UU?
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
- Thread starter reachzero
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Wouldn't it just be easier to put Speed Boost Blaziken in Ubers(which I'm assuming it will be put there) and leave Blaze Blaziken in UU?
SpD Tar is not a new check
SpD Scizor is not a new check
Jirachi is not a new check
Metagross is not a new check
Tornadus and Thunderus are not checks at all, they are OHKO'ed by Draco Meteor, and 2HKOed by any common move Latios carries, except maybe HP Fighting for Tyranitar. They cannot OHKO Latios either.
Starmie is not a check. See Genies, except Surf does not 2HKO Starmie.
Ferrothorn is a check, but dosent stop Latios coing back in later, and taking another 30~40% out of it. Or predicting it and using HP Fire, which it should carry.
Escavalier just forces it out, and even then, only on a DM. Surf will ruin it.
Tl;DR: Latios only gained two, shakey checks [Both are countered by HP Fire, which IMO, all Latios should be running, as it ruins 3 'checks' and hits Metagross and Jirachi hard too, ESPECIALLY in the Sun]
Gen 5 also gave Latios no counters, and removed Blissey as a Counter, due to Psyshock. It also removed Snorlax as a check. So, that's a net gain of +1 Check, and -1 Counter.
And there's other sets besides Specs too. Calm Mind Latios can take advantage of the switches caused by Specs Latios, for example, and can switch moves, while retaining the same power as Specs Latios [You CM on the switch it forces]. Or Life Orb Latios, who could carry Recover.
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Also, people need to stop moaning about the whole of Blaziken being banned. Speed Boost is a part of Blaziken. Banning Speed Boost on Blaziken is akin to banning Draco Meteor on Latios, or banning Dark Void on Darkrai. Speed Boost is a part of Blaziken.
And anyone using the Drizzle + SS ban to justify Blaziken should not be Uber in total: Is Perma-Rain part of Kingdra? No. Double Speed under perma-rain is. The combination was banned, to prevent the destruction of a whole playstyle [Rain Stall], and to prevent at least 3 individual pokemon being banned needlessly. [Kabutops, Kingdra, Ludicolo, and maybe Goyrabass [I hate the spelling of that] and Oymastar, or even Floatzel]
Not to mention SS+Drizzle is an Ability-Ability ban. Not a Pokemon-Ability ban. So there is no precident.
No. Because then ppl will start nominating stuff like Sand veil + Chomp and Sand Rush + Excadrill, Magic Guard + Reuniclus .... etc. It would set up a slippery slope of many unnecessary bans.
This.
Blaziken gone? Wow......
Just wow.
Makes me wonder what will go next? Sun more than likely..........Such a shame.
Actually i think Sun has a good chance of staying now. Since it's biggest pain in the ass abuser has just been banished to Ubers.
My prediction is that Latios and Deoxys-S will more than likely go next round. But that's all. (not sure about Drizzle though)
Seriously, at least if you're gonna complain about the ban post some reasoning rather than "wow" - the rest of this thread gives enough reasons for its banning, so if you disagree bring up a reason at least. Just complaining with no backing doesn't accomplish anything.
Anyway, I'm interested to see how Sun nominations are affected now Blaz is gone. He wasn't specifically an abuser, but he was one of the deadliest threats on Sun. Venusaur and Volcarona are some of the deadliest mons under it, and both have coverage and weakness issues (Ice Shard and SR) so it seems that they're kept in check well enough.
I have a good feeling that sun will be more balanced now that Blaze is gone.
After all, there's no way that it could be more broken now.
Sun was hard-pressed for sweepers as it is and they just lost one more. A very good one at that. It could KO all other weather starters and even outspeed Excadrill under certain circumstances. Venusaur and Volcanora have their drawbacks and are burdened by coverage.
Also, Drizzle is still here to stay for at least a while longer and so is Sandstorm and the odd Hail. The presence of Rain and SS itself is enough to keep Sun down.
After all, there's no way that it could be more broken now.
Sun was hard-pressed for sweepers as it is and they just lost one more. A very good one at that. It could KO all other weather starters and even outspeed Excadrill under certain circumstances. Venusaur and Volcanora have their drawbacks and are burdened by coverage.
Also, Drizzle is still here to stay for at least a while longer and so is Sandstorm and the odd Hail. The presence of Rain and SS itself is enough to keep Sun down.
That's different. It's not a ban of SwSw + Kingdra, it's a ban of Drizzle + SwSw.
Think of it as banning a broken teamstyle instead of a broken pokemon.
And in all honesty the combo ban was my second choice - I would've rather just banned Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops.
I have a Swift Swim Kingdra on a team. It takes advantage of other people's Drizzle whereas losing Sniper bothers me not at all.
Swift Swim Kingdra is not banned. Therefore no decisions regarding either of Kingdra's abilities can be considered arbitrary because they are not even decisions. They are just nothing.
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I don't particularly care about Blaziken, one way or the other. I always treated it with caution and I don't remember ever getting swept solely because of Blazike (not to say it never happened, but it certainly didn't happen many times).
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For Latios however, I strongly disagree with a ban. I actually stopped carrying it on my team because its checks are so common right now. My latios rarely got more than one KO. It usually gets exactly that. I could try other sets but it just wasn't working out. I am certain that I have never had a significant chunk taken out of my team because a Latios. I severely doubt that it will be a threat before Soul Dew comes and sneaks its way into Ubers.
My god. Blaziken is uber?!?! I'm gone for a couple of weeks and THIS happens?! Blaziken of all things. Not the legendaries/previous ubers deoxys and latios, Blaziken.
Who would have thought? Remember back in gen 4 when he was a lesser infernape? Back then, if I had said that blaziken would be uber next gen, I'd be ridiculed.
Is speed boost an overpowered ability? Or is it speed boost + blaziken? Does sharpedo have untapped potential?
I'm so relieved that latios is staying. I think that you lazy bastards need to stop beating on him and try USING the checks/counters available. Bold statement, yeah, but I think it's true. The easy way out has failed thrice in succession. Can we try to adapt now please?
I'd like to suggest Porygon2 as a latios counter. He's more than bulky enough to wall draco meteors, has insane utility with trace, a great movepool, and can even trick back latios' specs.
Does anyone actually use the cyber duck?
Who would have thought? Remember back in gen 4 when he was a lesser infernape? Back then, if I had said that blaziken would be uber next gen, I'd be ridiculed.
Is speed boost an overpowered ability? Or is it speed boost + blaziken? Does sharpedo have untapped potential?
I'm so relieved that latios is staying. I think that you lazy bastards need to stop beating on him and try USING the checks/counters available. Bold statement, yeah, but I think it's true. The easy way out has failed thrice in succession. Can we try to adapt now please?
I'd like to suggest Porygon2 as a latios counter. He's more than bulky enough to wall draco meteors, has insane utility with trace, a great movepool, and can even trick back latios' specs.
Does anyone actually use the cyber duck?
Which in turn bans Swift Swim+Kingdra (Pokemon + Ability) in that special circumstance.
No, you can still use SwSw + Kingdra... Just not with Drizzle.
Run SwSw with SS for all i care but you CAN still use it. You just wont be getting the speed boosts. Although if that's bothering you so much then run Rain dance.
Which is what I just said.
The point is that someone earlier said they don't want to ban Pokemon + Ability but we have done that in SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES with the SS + Drizzle ban.
You mean broken, right.
Speed Boost was a blessing, Hi Jump Kick was the curse.
No, Swift Swim+Drizzle is broken, because of the ability being possible to use in whole teams and make them broken. Do not even begin to suggest Speed Boost+Blaziken is an acceptable ban, unless you want no-attacks Deoxys-A allowed.
We have just voted Drought as not broken and banned its main abuser and you say we'll ban Sun next? Awesome.
I can't use a TR Reuniclus in a certain special circumstance (having a CM Reuniclus) due to Species Clause. Surely it sets a precedent, right?
We won't ban Speed Boost Blaziken and let Blaze Blaziken roam free in UU. We wouldn't ban Swords Dance Garchomp and let it be OU in DPPt. We won't ban pokémon+ability combinations. End of.
It's been awhile since I've played, so I have a few questions about the banning of Blaziken while Reuniclus was not banned.
Specifically, What did Blaziken start doing that made him banworthy? When I stopped playing, he didn't seem to be all that big of a deal an' seemed far more manageable than Reuniclus ever was. He was good, sure, but he didn't seem anywhere near banworthy. Did some kind of set or somethin' become really popular that broke him?
As for Reuniclus, did somebody find a bunch of solid counters that made him easier to deal with or something? When I stopped playing, he was basically the best pokémon in the current metagame an' had very few solid counters, and only a couple of 'em were good (Scizor and Tyranitar... and Scizor only countered him when running Bug Bite while Tyranitar wasn't a 100% counter ). I stopped playing simply because of him and I'm quite honestly surprised that he didn't even get a simple majority. It leads me to believe that something was found that made the stupid thing manageable an' I wanna know what! ... Please?
Specifically, What did Blaziken start doing that made him banworthy? When I stopped playing, he didn't seem to be all that big of a deal an' seemed far more manageable than Reuniclus ever was. He was good, sure, but he didn't seem anywhere near banworthy. Did some kind of set or somethin' become really popular that broke him?
As for Reuniclus, did somebody find a bunch of solid counters that made him easier to deal with or something? When I stopped playing, he was basically the best pokémon in the current metagame an' had very few solid counters, and only a couple of 'em were good (Scizor and Tyranitar... and Scizor only countered him when running Bug Bite while Tyranitar wasn't a 100% counter ). I stopped playing simply because of him and I'm quite honestly surprised that he didn't even get a simple majority. It leads me to believe that something was found that made the stupid thing manageable an' I wanna know what! ... Please?
Your mistaken though. We have banned an "Ability + Ability". Of course that means that some pokemon with a special ability will not be allowed on another team with the other specific ability but that's not the point.
The point is that we can still USE SwSw Kingdra on any other team besides th ones that have Drizzle. So it is not banned.
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phoenixwright7 said:
People were'nt abusing Blaziken as much before as they were now. With its Speed Boost ability and a Swords Dance it becomes nearly unstoppable. It's most dedicated Checks are laid to waste with a single coverage move mainly Stone Edge/Shadow Claw. It can OHKO or 2HKO most pokemon to the point that nothing can safely switch into it. Once it sets up your best et is to revenge it with an Azumarril. It only has one solid Counter in Slowbro. It can also set up on Ferrothorn, Forretress, etc. Not to mention Drought. Drought grants blaziken a neutrality to Water moves and gives Flare Blitz a huge boost. Towards the end of the suspect period people even started to run Mixed Blaziken sets with Hidden power ice/electric to destroy Gliscor and Gyarados and etc..
Reuniclus on the other hand hasnt changed much but people have found ways to deal with it. For one thing, it's ridiculously slow and susceptible to Physical attacks. Also, the usage of Ttar and Scizor is at an all time high so they are on most teams. Tricking reuniclus ruins it. Taunting it is also a very good strategy. Basically people have learnt how to play around it better than before.
No no, you misunderstand him. The Drizzle + SwSw ban is only not arbitrary because several people voted on it, despite there being no real precedent for it before.
Mario With Lasers said:
That's a straw man argument; the reason behind the Species Clause is to prevent people from doing mono-teams such as a team of all Arceus. I mean, deriving from what you said then we should be able to ban Pokemon + Item because of the Soul Dew clause. It did set a precedent, after all.
It's not like we're losing Latios' unique niche in the tier... Specs will just be overtaken by Latias who has a power level that is a lot more suitable for OU.
Dont forget hydreigon too. It may not boast that 110 base speed but it makes up for it with sheer power. And it is a bit bulkier than Latios on the physical side at least.
Just like the Drizzle "Clause" was to prevent whole teams of broken pokémon and was done due to people not coming to terms as to what was broken, Drizzle or Swift Swim or the pokémon. I don't believe this complex ban is a precedent to ban pokémon+ability, just like I don't believe Species Clause sets any ridiculous precedent, neither Soul Dew being banned in every single pokémon sets a precedent for a pokémon+item ban.
My problem with Blaziken is how frail he is though. I mean, I suppose if you can get him in safely against somethin' that it can force out, you'll be able to set up just fine, but other wise... Either it's dieing, or it's getting severely maimed allowing anything with priority to kill it... Hell, priority always seemed to do a number to it anyways for me... And if it was running Protect... You were either losing out on a boosting move, or coverage...
Tricking never seemed to work for me 'cause it always seemed to easy to predict. Outside of Bug Bite, physical attacks never seemed to do enough to Reuniclus. An' I already mentioned T-Tar and Scizor <_<
I am curious 'bout Taunt though. What's the best Taunter for dealing with Reuniclus? Not that I never thought of Taunt, just that I never saw as doing much more than slowing him down... And he'd at least be at a +1 by the time I brought in my Taunter, so...
I'm not really all that choked up 'bout Blaziken going... It's really Reuniclus staying that I'm upset 'bout -_- I mean, if he ain't being used as much as before then I suppose it really doesn't matter but...
See, the problem here is it does set precedence to ban Pokemon + Ability through principles of exclusion. Examples of Ability + Ability bans that would ban Pokemon + Ability: Sand Veil + Sand Stream (Garchomp), Snow Cloak + Snow Warning (Froslass, Glaceon), Rough Skin + Sand Stream (Garchomp), Pressure + Pressure (Too many to list), Levitate + No Guard (Machamp, Golurk). The point being people could try to ban certain abilities from being used together (say, common ones) in order to ban a specific Pokemon with a specific ability from using said ability (as seen in the Chomp case). These bans would seem arbitrary to outside viewers, and for all intents and purposes, they would be. It also makes it easier to argue that single abilities should be banned because there has already been a combination ban.
Also, I'd like to note I'm not arguing whether or not Drizzle + SwSw is broken. I'm arguing that banning combination of abilities sets a dangerous precedent for other possible bans that would most definitely be arbitrary. I'm also going to note that some of the examples used in possible Ability + Ability bans would be incredibly difficult if not impossible to argue, but still could be proposed using the flimsy excuse that there's already an ability + ability ban in place.
You do not need to switch in safely to be regarded as a check. That's a counter. Thunderus and Tornadus, I am assuming, can both take a hit after -2 Draco Meteor and 2HKO. I'd also assume Surf isn't doing much to Thunderus.
Again, see the point I made. I wish people were actually familiar with the terms they're talking about.
Ferrothorn gets a free turn to set up in that instance, which aids the team. It can Leech Seed + Protect on the switch as well, if it wants to gain its health back.
Escavalier learns Pursuit. Latios is not going anywhere.
Latios doesn't need HP Fire to be effective, but it still has checks, and many trappers for specific situations to capitalize on. If it runs HP Fire, its losing to other Latios, Gengar, and Latias.
We have more priority this generation thanks to Prankster on notable Pokemon, and more Choice Scarf Pokemon to choose from. Along with more trappers. I'd also like to note that while it isn't legal and this is rather irrelevant at the moment, Genesect will also provide an excellent check for Latios should it be released prior to Latios being voted Uber, should that day come. Again, not relevant now, I am just talking in the grand scheme of Gen V.
Latias does Calm Mind sets better, so I don't know why people mention this.
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