np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish

[Cuiv]

FYI, we did test Drizzle + Swift Swim - Manaphy.

Hmmm? Manaphy was banned in the same vote that Aldaron's Proposal was passed. There was never a time when Manaphy was banned while Drizzle + Swift Swim was legal.

I don't doubt that Kingdra would have to be banned if Aldaron's Proposal were repealed and Drizzle not banned, of course. I don't feel anything else would be, though.

 

[Ulevo]

I am not understanding why we didn't simply ban Swift Swim.

No one uses Swift Swim on regular rain teams utilizing Rain Dance, because its simply more effective to use Politoed with faster Pokemon who have natural speed that can abuse the rains benefits. It would have resulted in virtually the same effect, except we wouldn't have set the example that Smogon is willing to make exceptions and "bend the rules" of simplicity.

While I understand Swift Swim + Drizzle was nominated as a rare exception, its raising eye brows, and reasonably so. I also don't believe it will stop people from nominating complex bans in the future.

 

[alexwolf]

This was supposed to be posted hours ago but apparently my computer decided it wanted to be difficult (which is why I moved back the arguments a bit). I thought it was lost until I hit the back button.
And apparently this is also @alexwolf now.



More then enough checks? I count 2 (slowbro and azumarill), and a few more which are only checks if you run two of them from a specific list (priority abusers capable of dealing 50%). You will need to apply offensive pressure constantly against a blaziken team, and if they're using memento... And it makes stall teams without Slowbro all but unplayable.

Blaziken used protect! Ditto uses HJK! Ditto crashes and hurts itself!
Blaziken switched in a ghost type! Bye Bye ditto! (or a HJK resist. Once ditto is released, Blaziken teams would make sure to run them).

Or:
Blaziken used protect! Ditto used Blaze Kick!
If Blaziken hasn't gotten to SD:
Ditto used Blaze kick *blaziken takes damage* Blaziken used HJK! bye bye ditto!

If Blaziken has SD'd: (Blaziken has a chance to survive +2 Blaze Kick after SR, can't be OHKO'd without).
Blaziken switches to Heatran! Ditto used Blaze kick! Lol thanks ditto! or
Blaziken switches to bulky water! Ditto used Blaze Kick! Hey that tickles!

Protect screws over choice scarf imposter ditto. Without choice scarf you're now taking a 50% gamble.
Not to mention ditto (or imposter) may end up banned itself. Not just interrupting/getting rid of your opponent's momentum but stealing all that they've worked to build up seems a tad too much too me. In addition, nothing else revenges any SD/NP/DD sweeper in the game (and then potentially proceeds to steal their sweep), and even against a stall team it has utility. You can steal their hazards, and if you kill their spinblocker you can even steal their spin. And if they have anything with trick... But I digress. I haven't played all that much DW (especially not recently) and it's way too early to be having discussions about him.

first of all slowbro isn't a check.he is a counter to physical blaziken!the only perfect counter to physical blaziken i think...
also in your scenario you mention that after blaziken uses protect the opponent will just switch in to a resist of the move you used with ditto...and he will take 2 of ditto's moves....and by moves i mean stab fb and stab hjk with a swords dance....if you consider the fact that usually blaziken attempts a sweep around mid or late game,i find it hard for the blaziken user to keep his fighting and fire resists so healthy that they can take 2 of ditto's hits...except if they have an immunity...but not every team has heatran or a ghost...and if they have it is even easier for the ditto user to predict the switch in after blaziken uses protect and switch out accordingly...so you have a point but we have also one as ditto can check perfectly a lot of blazikens(protect-less)and can somewhat check even the ones with protect...
also if ditto forces blaziken to use protect to avoid being revenge killed then blaziken gets very easily walled by a lot of pokes...

 

[Thorhammer]

This was supposed to be posted hours ago but apparently my computer decided it wanted to be difficult (which is why I moved back the arguments a bit). I thought it was lost until I hit the back button.
And apparently this is also @alexwolf now.

More then enough checks? I count 2 (slowbro and azumarill), and a few more which are only checks if you run two of them from a specific list (priority abusers capable of dealing 50%). You will need to apply offensive pressure constantly against a blaziken team, and if they're using memento... And it makes stall teams without Slowbro all but unplayable.

Blaziken used protect! Ditto uses HJK! Ditto crashes and hurts itself!
Blaziken switched in a ghost type! Bye Bye ditto! (or a HJK resist. Once ditto is released, Blaziken teams would make sure to run them).

Or:
Blaziken used protect! Ditto used Blaze Kick!
If Blaziken hasn't gotten to SD:
Ditto used Blaze kick *blaziken takes damage* Blaziken used HJK! bye bye ditto!

If Blaziken has SD'd: (Blaziken has a chance to survive +2 Blaze Kick after SR, can't be OHKO'd without).
Blaziken switches to Heatran! Ditto used Blaze kick! Lol thanks ditto! or
Blaziken switches to bulky water! Ditto used Blaze Kick! Hey that tickles!

Protect screws over choice scarf imposter ditto. Without choice scarf you're now taking a 50% gamble.
Not to mention ditto (or imposter) may end up banned itself. Not just interrupting/getting rid of your opponent's momentum but stealing all that they've worked to build up seems a tad too much too me. In addition, nothing else revenges any SD/NP/DD sweeper in the game (and then potentially proceeds to steal their sweep), and even against a stall team it has utility. You can steal their hazards, and if you kill their spinblocker you can even steal their spin. And if they have anything with trick... But I digress. I haven't played all that much DW (especially not recently) and it's way too early to be having discussions about him.

I use neither of those, just Conkeldurr and Scarf Landorus, and have little trouble with Blaziken. It's a threat, but as long as I keep it in mind throughout the battle and am always prepared to respond to it, I can generally handle it.

The Ditto player will know if the Blaziken player has a Ghost on their team. They'll also know the Blaziken's entire movepool, so they'll know whether it was carrying Protect or not. With all that in mind, they should be able to tell when to take what risks if they play with a bit of sense.

Imposter Ditto cannot possibly be broken. A pain to face, and hugely metagame-changing? Sure. But it can't do anything on its own. Anything it does to you is completely dependent on what you have on your own team and how you use it, which goes against every aspect of being broken. It can't turn into a boosted sweeper unless you boost first. Also, the fact that it's generally restricted to using a Choice Scarf limits its options greatly.

I know that Kabutops, Kingdra, and Ludicolo were the front runners, and I KNOW that all the other swift swimmers weren't tested with out those main three gone. But seriously.

Quilfish was argued to be like another version of Kabutops in fourth gen, just with poison typing. I could EASILY see him taking Kabutops place, although the explosion nerf may not be as good, he still has SD, and Waterfall, and Aqua Jet, and Thunder Wave, Toxic Spikes, and Spikes. Not to mention poison typing to absorb toxic spikes.

Golduck has the same Special Attack and Speed as Kingdra, and can run an efficient calm mind set, or do the same thing Kingdra does with Choice Specs Hydro Pump. Albeit, with pure water typing and lack of dragon stab, but still a dangerous threat.

Poliwrath... Oh god, are you kidding me? Belly drum + Swift Swim? Really? You want that? Or how about Bulk Up?

Omastar is still dangerous, although slower than the average swift swimmer, it has shell smash AND 115 special attack and a decent move pool to boast is still a threat. Also has access to swift swim spikes, stealth rock, rapid spin, haze, knock off... Still one heck of a threat even if he decides to go supportive!

Gorebyss has been causing problems NOW with shell smash, and in swift swim, I am sure it would destroy just as wel, and same with Huntail.

Floatzel although only running off 105 base attack, Theoretically he could quickly take the spot of Kabutops/Quilfish if they were banned. Or run more of a supporting baton pass in rain set, that could prove quite powerful. And could quickly take a valuable spot.

Seriously, when I look at the list, there may be 5 that I can count that might be not a threat. Luvdisc, Lumineon, Armaldo, Mantine, Beartic... Seaking... I really don't want to ban those above mentioned pokemon so I Luvdisc might see some use in the rain. No, I don't care about that. Out of these 6 the only one I care about is Armaldo with Swift Swim.

The theory was the cascade. Most of the majority felt that those other pokemon I mentioned above would take the place of Kabutops and Kingdra and Ludicolo. And FFS... if those 3 were banned and those above mentioned threats didn't take their place? My mind would melt.

You know, I never thought about it that way before. I was always just bringing up Qwilfish and Omastar as OU-viable casualties of this ban, but it sounds like almost all of the Swift Swim users have the potential to be a potent threat in OU. Seems Aldaron's proposal was even more destructive than we realized.

You can't simply theorymon all of them to be broken like that. We should test them all, find out what really is broken and what isn't, and decide from there what the best way of dealing with that is. What's important to keep in mind is that we don't need to ban those Pokemon entirely. If we can ban Swift Swim + Drizzle, we can instead ban Kingdra + Drizzle, Ludicolo + Drizzle, and Kabutops + Drizzle. And if from there, we also need to ban Gorebyss + Drizzle, Poliwrath + Drizzle, and Omastar + Drizzle, and in exchange turn Floatzel, Golduck, and Qwilfish into OU-viable Pokemon, we should do so.

You say that it can be assumed that they take the place of the previous big three. Of course, many of them will take their place as top threats. But will they all take their threats as top, broken threats? That remains to be seen, and it must be tested.

 

[waffles101]

I know I'm a bit behind but what exactly is being tested this round?

 

[charizard24]

I know I'm a bit behind but what exactly is being tested this round?

This round is now officially over. (Round 3)

The suspects banned were :

- Brightpowder
- Blazken (all forms)

There was also a simple majority for both Deoxys-S and Latios. So they are automatically suspect next round and only need another simple majority to be banned.

 

[Showsni]

You can't simply theorymon all of them to be broken like that. We should test them all, find out what really is broken and what isn't, and decide from there what the best way of dealing with that is. What's important to keep in mind is that we don't need to ban those Pokemon entirely. If we can ban Swift Swim + Drizzle, we can instead ban Kingdra + Drizzle, Ludicolo + Drizzle, and Kabutops + Drizzle. And if from there, we also need to ban Gorebyss + Drizzle, Poliwrath + Drizzle, and Omastar + Drizzle, and in exchange turn Floatzel, Golduck, and Qwilfish into OU-viable Pokemon, we should do so.

You say that it can be assumed that they take the place of the previous big three. Of course, many of them will take their place as top threats. But will they all take their threats as top, broken threats? That remains to be seen, and it must be tested.

Agreeing that we should have done more testing of the various rain combinations before the blanket ban. I mean, we didn't even test how good swift swimmers were without Hydration Manaphy in the environment, which would obviously warp Drizzle teams. The quick lazy ban of things many people probably weren't even testing and wouldn't have faced - stuff like Huntail, Mantine, Poliwrath, Golduck, etc. - was just short sighted, to be honest.

It also seems somewhat like a "double dragon" effect to me - one reason swift swimmers seems so powerful is becasue you can pack a whole team with them. It might be worth testing changes to Aldaron's proposal like "You're limited to one Swift Swim user on a Drizzle team."

 

[Benlisted]

You say that it can be assumed that they take the place of the previous big three. Of course, many of them will take their place as top threats. But will they all take their threats as top, broken threats? That remains to be seen, and it must be tested.

Not that I agree with it, but based upon previous precedence with the case of Deo-N, it would seem that theorymonning mon(s) to be broken and banning or clausing them based upon that is okay when there are very similar cases to the ban currently happening.

I really don't support it in terms of policy, but there is some benefit to be had from doing this as it saves the suspect process a lot of time and effort which could otherwise be used to focus on other things.

 

[astrohawke]

It's ironic that now people should call Aldaron's proposal the blanket ban or the quick and lazy approach when 2 months ago people just wanted to ban drizzle and be done with it and I was telling them not to be lazy with a blanket ban on drizzle and to actually test things.

Aldaron's proposal was the result of a month of arguing about whether or not we should even be bothered to test anything because so many people were adamant that drizzle was 100% broken plain and simple, no need to waste time doing 100 different tests.

Good luck trying to convince people to test every single swift swimmer. And really it only takes 1 good swift swimmer like kingdra or ludicolo to make rain teams a bitch to deal with.

 

[alexwolf]

Oh my god how can you ignore something whats right in your face?, you cannot give 19 pokes double speed + a 50% boost to their stabs and not expect problems. Look at Omastar, it has 125 base special attack and reacher 400+ speed under drizzle and it has Hydro Pump, look at this thing and tell itd be just fine if it were allowed, may i remind you about how so many peo;le were complaining about how only Ferrothorn could barely survive specs hydro pump from Kingdra under rain, Omastar would rape.

THE ONLY REASON you didnt see any of those guys was because people were using Kabu, king and Ludi already. Theres no reason to believe they would not be monstrous. You say Theorymoning is useless?, were talking about over 19 pokes that would outspeed everything and have their stabs boosted all at once, people WILL have multiple of these guys on the same team, theres no reason not to.

I mean im seeing people using swift swim Mantine with just rain dance just to counter other people drizzle and totally rape sand & sun teams, freaking Mantine. Some people around here be underestimating how good rain is, it is too good.

while it is true that omastar would be a very interesting and threatening rain sweeper it's not near as powerful and useful as ludicolo and kingdra...
do you know why ludicolo and kingdra were the most potent rain combo?
'cause they had a typing that prevented them from having the usual water weaknesses and in the same time let them break through water type usual counters...and of course usable attacking stats and speed...without kingdra and ludicolo almost every sw poke is weak to electric and grass...do you know how bad this is when you build a team?you alrdy have politoed and then you put 2 or 3 more sw pokes that are all weak to grass and electric...this is unacceptabble and for sure doesn't make for a good team... a team like this can fall apart by a scarf jolteon spamming thunders after your nattorei or zapdos are eliminated...
this is also rain's biggest difference with sun...while rain gives both of it's main benefits to a single type(water) sun on the other hand splits them to 2(fire grass)...this means that rain has more powerful sweepers but sun teams have greater synergy...far greater sunergy...the only sw pokes that helped rain teams get some decent synergy were kingdra and ludicolo...without these 2 you would have too many same weaknesses so you woudn't be able to run more than 1(or 2 in best cases)sw abusers...
also omastar in order to ouspeed scarfers must use shell smash(unlike kabutops,kingdra and sometimes ludicolo)and generally has to use shell smash in order to get the power that it needs...this can be easily taken advantage of through priority or by predicting the setup and either attacking or statusing or by switching erufun and encoring shell smash...
also omastar is stopped by any bulky water as its only options for hitting them for good amounts are hidden power grass or electric....i think that most bulky waters can survive even a +2 hp grass so they can ko back with surf boosted by rain on their -1 sp.def(shell smash)...if omastar choses to have a chance at beating bulky waters he outright loses to ferrothorn...gyarados also can take everything except hp rock or a physical rock attack and ko back with eq or waterfall...
anyway omastar is surely a very good rain sweeper but you can't know if it will be broken ort not and for sure it is less broken than any of the others that were most used...
my opinion is that the pokes that pushed rain offense to broken were ludicolo and kingdra mainly and to a lesser extent kabutops...everything else was fine...we can't know if the other sw pokes would be broken without testing them..thats why i think that banning ludicolo and kingdra(and maybe kabutops)is the best solution...but aldaron's proposal was of 'course a good solution in comparison to the horrible idea of banning drizzle and generally was a good way of nerfing rain...

 

[masterful]

while it is true that omastar would be a very interesting and threatening rain sweeper it's not near as powerful and useful as ludicolo and kingdra...
do you know why ludicolo and kingdra were the most potent rain combo?
'cause they had a typing that prevented them from having the usual water weaknesses and in the same time let them break through water type usual counters...and of course usable attacking stats and speed...without kingdra and ludicolo almost every sw poke is weak to electric and grass...do you know how bad this is when you build a team?you alrdy have politoed and then you put 2 or 3 more sw pokes that are all weak to grass and electric...this is unacceptabble and for sure doesn't make for a good team... a team like this can fall apart by a scarf jolteon spamming thunders after your nattorei or zapdos are eliminated...
this is also rain's biggest difference with sun...while rain gives both of it's main benefits to a single type(water) sun on the other hand splits them to 2(fire grass)...this means that rain has more powerful sweepers but sun teams have greater synergy...far greater sunergy...the only sw pokes that helped rain teams get some decent synergy were kingdra and ludicolo...without these 2 you would have too many same weaknesses so you woudn't be able to run more than 1(or 2 in best cases)sw abusers...
also omastar in order to ouspeed scarfers must use shell smash(unlike kabutops,kingdra and sometimes ludicolo)and generally has to use shell smash in order to get the power that it needs...this can be easily taken advantage of through priority or by predicting the setup and either attacking or statusing or by switching erufun and encoring shell smash...
also omastar is stopped by any bulky water as its only options for hitting them for good amounts are hidden power grass or electric....i think that most bulky waters can survive even a +2 hp grass so they can ko back with surf boosted by rain on their -1 sp.def(shell smash)...if omastar choses to have a chance at beating bulky waters he outright loses to ferrothorn...gyarados also can take everything except hp rock or a physical rock attack and ko back with eq or waterfall...
anyway omastar is surely a very good rain sweeper but you can't know if it will be broken ort not and for sure it is less broken than any of the others that were most used...
my opinion is that the pokes that pushed rain offense to broken were ludicolo and kingdra mainly and to a lesser extent kabutops...everything else was fine...we can't know if the other sw pokes would be broken without testing them..thats why i think that banning ludicolo and kingdra(and maybe kabutops)is the best solution...but aldaron's proposal was of 'course a good solution in comparison to the horrible idea of banning drizzle and generally was a good way of nerfing rain...

There were many more Swift Swimmers that would likely be broken with Rain, including things like Omastar, Huntail, and Gorebyss used in conjunction, as the true power of rain teams usually came from the offensive core of Ludi, Kingdra, and Kabutops. The amount of time it would take to test all the other threats would be immense,and IMO not worth it, as many of them don't even need Drizzle or are just terrible either way. Also, I don't want to pester you, but could you please just try to use capitals? It's kinda hard to read through your post when everything is lower-case.

 

[Lightning Tiger]

Let me ask you guys again, how much more powerful do you need to make rain before you are satisfied?, As it is it is easily already the most powerfull of the weathers, is it neccesary to bring a bunch pokes that will outspeed everybody (even the slowest Carracosta will outspeed thundurus, and it has Shell Smash) AND get their stabs boosted?

Those other pokemon didnt get their fair test?, idk it is not worth it to test them all its going do is give rain a huge ass advantage of everything else. People have a hard enough time with weather dominating the metagame as it is, the last thing we need is to make the most powerfull weather even more rididiculous by bringing some 10+ unoutspeedable rain sweepers (some of which like Matine can wall ass as well)....

I have no doubt that even if these guys arent all broken (which i doubt) it would still not end there because we would have the issue of rain suddenly becoming a bigger behemoth than it already is at the moment.

 

[alexwolf]

There were many more Swift Swimmers that would likely be broken with Rain, including things like Omastar, Huntail, and Gorebyss used in conjunction, as the true power of rain teams usually came from the offensive core of Ludi, Kingdra, and Kabutops. The amount of time it would take to test all the other threats would be immense,and IMO not worth it, as many of them don't even need Drizzle or are just terrible either way. Also, I don't want to pester you, but could you please just try to use capitals? It's kinda hard to read through your post when everything is lower-case.

You are right that these pokes may prove broken but :1.We can't know if they are or not without any actual experience,2.Don't forget that all of these pokes share the same weaknesses so it's not easy to pack 2 or 3 of them cause you alrdy have politoed...kingdra and ludicolo had completely different weaknesses from usual waters...

I think that any new combo of swift swimmers is worth testing 'cause we have no evidence on it...The only combo we all know that is broken is kingdra,kabutops and ludicolo which are the only 3 that should have been banned in the first place.

And finally if by banning only 3 pokes we manage to give value and actual use to another 6 or 7 pokes then it is perfectly desirable to do so...

I believe that if we have spare time to ban unimportant things like the evasion items,then we should certainly spent some time to see if aldaron's proposal was the ideal solution...

Also you are right about my lack of capital letters and text of format in general...I will try to improve it!

 

[Raikaria]

Imposter Ditto cannot possibly be broken. A pain to face, and hugely metagame-changing? Sure. But it can't do anything on its own. Anything it does to you is completely dependent on what you have on your own team and how you use it, which goes against every aspect of being broken. It can't turn into a boosted sweeper unless you boost first. Also, the fact that it's generally restricted to using a Choice Scarf limits its options greatly.

Sorry, but I find that statement hilarious.

Imposter Ditto makes set-up sweepers outright unviable.

All it needs to do is come in on something with a boost in either offensive stat, and copy it's boosts. It then forces it out, as most sweepers are too frail to take their own boosted attacks, and, of course, it's outsped.

The other team then has to deal with ALL OF THEIR MOMEMTUM JUST HURLED BACK AT THEM, AND THEN SOME. Ditto literally flips momemtum on it's head, and turns the advantage the other player has earned against them, with no effort whatsoever.

It is exceptionally easy to see how Imposter Ditto could be broken. Just being a dead stop to anything that sets up is enough for it to probobly break Stall [It can copy Renkulus too, and any boosts it has gathered], let alone offense.

You may see no possible way that a pokemon who flips the flow of the game in the lar opposite direction is broken, but I see no possible way that it isn't. The solution to almost any offensive threat becomes 'Throw Ditto at it.' And you force it out, at the very least.

 

[Nanoswine]

Wait did Imposter Ditto get released?

If it hasn't been, then why are we discussing it -.-

 

[Thorhammer]

Agreeing that we should have done more testing of the various rain combinations before the blanket ban. I mean, we didn't even test how good swift swimmers were without Hydration Manaphy in the environment, which would obviously warp Drizzle teams. The quick lazy ban of things many people probably weren't even testing and wouldn't have faced - stuff like Huntail, Mantine, Poliwrath, Golduck, etc. - was just short sighted, to be honest.

It also seems somewhat like a "double dragon" effect to me - one reason swift swimmers seems so powerful is becasue you can pack a whole team with them. It might be worth testing changes to Aldaron's proposal like "You're limited to one Swift Swim user on a Drizzle team."

I wouldn't say I necessarily disagree with what was done in the past. Testing Aldaron's proposal was the right thing to do, as it offered a quick way to determine whether or not Drizzle as a whole was broken. However, now that it has served that purpose, it's time to go back and retest things.

Not that I agree with it, but based upon previous precedence with the case of Deo-N, it would seem that theorymonning mon(s) to be broken and banning or clausing them based upon that is okay when there are very similar cases to the ban currently happening.

I really don't support it in terms of policy, but there is some benefit to be had from doing this as it saves the suspect process a lot of time and effort which could otherwise be used to focus on other things.

Deoxys-N was a special case, since it and Deoxys-A may as well be one Pokemon. Same type, same movepool, same ability, and nearly identical stats. Other Swift Swimmers may be somewhat similar, but I wouldn't call them anywhere close to as similar.

Testing of Swift Swim Pokemon doesn't have to be done in OU, where it would impede the testing of everything else. There's a reason we've had a Suspect tier in the past for tests such as this; we should bring it back and use it to explore Swift Swim to see what's really broken.

It's ironic that now people should call Aldaron's proposal the blanket ban or the quick and lazy approach when 2 months ago people just wanted to ban drizzle and be done with it and I was telling them not to be lazy with a blanket ban on drizzle and to actually test things.

Aldaron's proposal was the result of a month of arguing about whether or not we should even be bothered to test anything because so many people were adamant that drizzle was 100% broken plain and simple, no need to waste time doing 100 different tests.

Good luck trying to convince people to test every single swift swimmer. And really it only takes 1 good swift swimmer like kingdra or ludicolo to make rain teams a bitch to deal with.

At that time, everyone was wrong, since no one even considered addressing individual Pokemon. Issues of the past need not continue to be issues of the future. Whether or not everyone will agree with it right now, finding some way to test the Swift Swim users that have not been proven decisively broken is something we need to do. I only hope that enough people will understand this notion enough to give it the support it needs. Are you among them?

It only takes one top-tier Pokemon of any sort to make a team a bitch to deal with. And other Swift Swim users are not like Kingdra and Ludicolo. In Drizzle at least, Kingdra, Ludicolo, and Kabutops are broken; some or all of the other Swift Swim users are not.

Sorry, but I find that statement hilarious.

Imposter Ditto makes set-up sweepers outright unviable.

All it needs to do is come in on something with a boost in either offensive stat, and copy it's boosts. It then forces it out, as most sweepers are too frail to take their own boosted attacks, and, of course, it's outsped.

The other team then has to deal with ALL OF THEIR MOMEMTUM JUST HURLED BACK AT THEM, AND THEN SOME. Ditto literally flips momemtum on it's head, and turns the advantage the other player has earned against them, with no effort whatsoever.

It is exceptionally easy to see how Imposter Ditto could be broken. Just being a dead stop to anything that sets up is enough for it to probobly break Stall [It can copy Renkulus too, and any boosts it has gathered], let alone offense.

You may see no possible way that a pokemon who flips the flow of the game in the lar opposite direction is broken, but I see no possible way that it isn't. The solution to almost any offensive threat becomes 'Throw Ditto at it.' And you force it out, at the very least.

If only any of those arguments had been relevant.

A Pokemon is only broken if a team battling it cannot be reasonably expected to be capable of stopping it from sweeping or enabling the sweep of another Pokemon. Imposter Ditto may be a near-perfect stop to set-up sweepers, but that only serves to balance the metagame; it has nothing to do with brokenness. Rendering strategies unviable and flipping the flow of the game on its head are parts of the game, not alone qualifications for brokenness.

Wait did Imposter Ditto get released?

If it hasn't been, then why are we discussing it -.-

We're discussing the possibility that it might lead to the future unbanning of Blaziken.

As for why... I guess because while people can accept that Blaziken may be broken at present, they want to see it return in the future, if that ever becomes reasonable. I certainly hold that view.

 

[Darkflagrance]

Isn't Inconsistent/Moody banned by itself? So doesn't that set a precedence for the single banning of an ability like Speed Boost?

 

[Acritter]

Sorry, but I find that statement hilarious.

Imposter Ditto makes set-up sweepers outright unviable.

All it needs to do is come in on something with a boost in either offensive stat, and copy it's boosts. It then forces it out, as most sweepers are too frail to take their own boosted attacks, and, of course, it's outsped.

The other team then has to deal with ALL OF THEIR MOMEMTUM JUST HURLED BACK AT THEM, AND THEN SOME. Ditto literally flips momemtum on it's head, and turns the advantage the other player has earned against them, with no effort whatsoever.

It is exceptionally easy to see how Imposter Ditto could be broken. Just being a dead stop to anything that sets up is enough for it to probobly break Stall [It can copy Renkulus too, and any boosts it has gathered], let alone offense.

You may see no possible way that a pokemon who flips the flow of the game in the lar opposite direction is broken, but I see no possible way that it isn't. The solution to almost any offensive threat becomes 'Throw Ditto at it.' And you force it out, at the very least.

There are ways to deal with it. You essentially need to take advantage of the limitations of Scarf or Impostor.

For example, Impostor crumbles to a simple Substitute, and setup sweepers like Balloon Excadrill are able to circumvent the issue of the scarf almost entirely under the right circumstances (which are actually fairly easy to set up). Bulky sweepers also are a huge pain for Ditto, because some of them can actually set up in Ditto's face while its choiced moves fail to kill faster than the sweeper heals.

Since preview allows you to see when your opponent is packing a Ditto, teams with simple offensive setups just have to prepare for the Ditto rather than trying to scrape up a Swords Dance or what have you at any opportunity. This may mean double switching or attacking on the switch, but either of these can spell doom for the Ditto.

The final touch is that a team can simply carry a check for its own sweeper, something likely to benefit the team anyway because it should be running a sweeper that is dangerous enough that it needs to be checked. For obvious reasons, said check shouldn't be a simple outspeed.

Impostor Ditto is extremely strong, but it isn't an end-all.

 

[Thorhammer]

Isn't Inconsistent/Moody banned by itself? So doesn't that set a precedence for the single banning of an ability like Speed Boost?

Speed Boost isn't a broken ability. It wasn't broken or even that good on Ninjask or Yanmega in the past, or at least not good enough to give either of them much of a presence in OU. It also doesn't appear to be broken or even any more notable on Sharpedo.

There are ways to deal with it. You essentially need to take advantage of the limitations of Scarf or Impostor.

For example, Impostor crumbles to a simple Substitute, and setup sweepers like Balloon Excadrill are able to circumvent the issue of the scarf almost entirely under the right circumstances (which are actually fairly easy to set up). Bulky sweepers also are a huge pain for Ditto, because some of them can actually set up in Ditto's face while its choiced moves fail to kill faster than the sweeper heals.

Since preview allows you to see when your opponent is packing a Ditto, teams with simple offensive setups just have to prepare for the Ditto rather than trying to scrape up a Swords Dance or what have you at any opportunity. This may mean double switching or attacking on the switch, but either of these can spell doom for the Ditto.

The final touch is that a team can simply carry a check for its own sweeper, something likely to benefit the team anyway because it should be running a sweeper that is dangerous enough that it needs to be checked. For obvious reasons, said check shouldn't be a simple outspeed.

Impostor Ditto is extremely strong, but it isn't an end-all.

To add to this, it seems like Team Preview as a whole has increased the criteria for a Pokemon being broken, since it needs to be capable of fulfilling all of the other criteria while the opponent is aware of its presence and capable of staying ready for it the entire match.

 

[Arc Tech]

If only any of those arguments had been relevant.

A Pokemon is only broken if a team battling it cannot be reasonably expected to be capable of stopping it from sweeping or enabling the sweep of another Pokemon. Imposter Ditto may be a near-perfect stop to set-up sweepers, but that only serves to balance the metagame; it has nothing to do with brokenness. Rendering strategies unviable and flipping the flow of the game on its head are parts of the game, not alone qualifications for brokenness.

There were three characteristics last gen, offense and support (which you covered), and one for defense (which you missed) and as the other guy said, is probably the one that Ditto could qualify for. And before you say something like "ditto isn't a wall" let me remind you "Offense is the best defense." He doesn't need to take a hit when he automatically outspeeds everything not wearing a choice scarf (something which even deoxys-E cannot do), and threaten out anything which has gotten boosts in an attempt to sweep. The only things which don't lose to ditto are things with subs (and will not be able to boost and keep up the sub at the same time, as well as restricting their movepool, greatly limiting their sweeping potential). Ditto does have some problems getting in, but it can revenge most things and can come in on others which have immunities or resistances to their own moves. It can even just bluff a scarf if it wants and go to town on the opponent's team. The only thing it may have problems with are Bulk uper's, cursers, and CM'ers, and even then not all of them.

And no other pokemon in the game does what Ditto does to momentum. Other pokemon can break you opponent's momentum and then let you start setting up your own, true, but that's NOT what ditto does. It literally steals whatever momentum your opponent set up. That's different than breaking it.

And like I said, the fact that moost blaziken's run protect means that ditto can't really check blaziken.


And also, to whoever said Slowbro is a blaziken counter, it's not. It's a check because it can't come in on mixken. It's a counter to physical blaziken yes, but only a check overall. It's kinda like mence and his two sets.

 

[alexwolf]

Sorry, but I find that statement hilarious.

Imposter Ditto makes set-up sweepers outright unviable.

All it needs to do is come in on something with a boost in either offensive stat, and copy it's boosts. It then forces it out, as most sweepers are too frail to take their own boosted attacks, and, of course, it's outsped.

The other team then has to deal with ALL OF THEIR MOMEMTUM JUST HURLED BACK AT THEM, AND THEN SOME. Ditto literally flips momemtum on it's head, and turns the advantage the other player has earned against them, with no effort whatsoever.

It is exceptionally easy to see how Imposter Ditto could be broken. Just being a dead stop to anything that sets up is enough for it to probobly break Stall [It can copy Renkulus too, and any boosts it has gathered], let alone offense.

You may see no possible way that a pokemon who flips the flow of the game in the lar opposite direction is broken, but I see no possible way that it isn't. The solution to almost any offensive threat becomes 'Throw Ditto at it.' And you force it out, at the very least.

imposter ditto doesn't make setup sweepers outright unviable...stop exaggerating.
first of all any setup sweeper can stop ditto if he subs before ditto comes in...
after this ditto cannot beat any of the bulk uppers/calm minders/budderfly dance pokes that have reliable recovery and are not weak to their own stab moves.
ditto has only 5 pps to use and is locked due to scarf...so any poke with defensive boosts can just w8 till dittos pp finish and then just finish him off.
also ditto only has 300 hp so any poke with more hp than this is more bulky than ditto...

 

[haunter]

Please stop theorymoning about unreleased Pokemon\abilities. Let's try to discuss about what's currently available.

 

[Thorhammer]

Please stop theorymoning about unreleased Pokemon\abilities. Let's try to discuss about what's currently available.

Yes, we should move on to what really matters.

Right now, what matters is getting a decision from PR about whether or not other bans along the lines of Aldaron's proposal - weather-abusing abilities + weather-summoning abilities and/or weather-abusing Pokemon + weather-summoning abilities - could be considered, when there is already cause to ban the ability or Pokemon in question. Until that happens, we'll be stuck going around in circles in these threads.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

It is exceptionally easy to see how Imposter Ditto could be broken. Just being a dead stop to anything that sets up is enough for it to probobly break Stall [It can copy Renkulus too, and any boosts it has gathered], let alone offense.

Hoo boy, Ditto copied my Reuniclus, now I have to face a +4 Reuniclus with 300 max HP and a Choice Scarf!!!! Am I ruined or what.

Besides, what Thorhammer/Acritter said.

...And Haunter.

Right now, what matters is getting a decision from PR about whether or not other bans along the lines of Aldaron's proposal - weather-abusing abilities + weather-summoning abilities and/or weather-abusing Pokemon + weather-summoning abilities - could be considered, when there is already cause to ban the ability or Pokemon in question. Until that happens, we'll be stuck going around in circles in these threads.

Only if you can prove Sand Veil+Sandstream is anything close to Swift Swim+Drizzle. Until then, we'll ban whole pokémon and whole abilities and be happy with it.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

I find it funny that people said in 4th gen that Blaziken could be OU if it was faster, but now that it is...

And since Infernape outclasses an Uber, shouldn't it be Uber? Because it outclasses Blaze Blaziken, and that's Uber. Cyan is for sarcasm.

And I don't know why Lax Incense and Brightpowder were tested when we already made the decision not to test the bigger-boost-giving Sand Veil and Snow Cloak. Who even uses those items anyway aside from Cacturne? Also, besides Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, there's also Thrash Tangled Feet Dodrio, which was released. (Spinda also has had this combo since Generation IV, but it has 60 base stats across the board) Of course, not that I support banning any of these. Still, Doduo, who is already good in Little Cup, now has this combo.

There's also any move that has a chance of lowering accuracy. No one has ever used it over Natural Cure to see if it is viable or not, but Mud Bomb Chansey or Blissey can use Serene Grace for a 60% chance of lowering accuracy on all non-Flying-types or non-Levitators.