Never claimed it was broken. I was trying to simply point out that the standards for "not crap" are becoming outrageously high in this gen. -_-
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 3 - So Long and Thanks for all the Fish
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Never claimed it was broken. I was trying to simply point out that the standards for "not crap" are becoming outrageously high in this gen. -_-
Youre wrong in one point.
Water is more useful than FrFg. However my point on Sharpy is hes
Fighting Weak. 80 STAB(CB sharpy is as strong as Lefties Blaze)
I rather use gyara despite no speed boost. CB gyara is too awesome to pass for me. he has 5 more attack, insane bulk, and more importantly his movepool is quite awesome, and having alternative option that is very useful.
Finally i must say dont say pedo sucks just yet. We never know
See
Tornadus in early BW where everyone say he must go to depth of NU because he sucks. See how popular he is now.
BW meta is in a word diverse AND absurd. you never know how A will go in the meta before trying it first. This has been proven countless time by things like Virizion, Ulga, Tornadus etc
Anyone try running mixed Sharpedo? A 252/252/4 spread allows for 372/289/340 or 339/317/340 offenses after +1.
HP Fire 2HKOs max/max+ Ferrothorn, IIRC.
I ran Surf/Ice Beam/Crunch/HP Fire, but I think EQ should replace something... Ice Beam seems almost redundant, but I ran it to catch ScarfChomp on the switch.
HP Fire 2HKOs max/max+ Ferrothorn, IIRC.
I ran Surf/Ice Beam/Crunch/HP Fire, but I think EQ should replace something... Ice Beam seems almost redundant, but I ran it to catch ScarfChomp on the switch.
On a general note, I think the debate gets unnecessarily messy at times. People just can't agree on what the criteria for banning something are : brokenness ? Centralization ? Hax-inducing nature ? Generally harmful nature for the metagame, whatever that means ? And so on.
Reminding everybody of the existing guidelines to date (like, say, in the OP), or establishing some definitions if needed, would seem like a good idea to me. Reading through the likes of
Or is it just me ?
(Yes, I did some research, the results of which make me think that as for each and every webforum, people just don't read the frakking stickies.)
Reminding everybody of the existing guidelines to date (like, say, in the OP), or establishing some definitions if needed, would seem like a good idea to me. Reading through the likes of
is bewildering at best.
Or is it just me ?
(Yes, I did some research, the results of which make me think that as for each and every webforum, people just don't read the frakking stickies.)
Centralisation is a symtom of being broken, generally. Look at the effect that banning Salamance and Latias had in Gen 4 [Many pokemon dropped drastically in use, even SCIZOR dropped about 10%] Possibly the only exception is Wobbuffett... who nothing can really be done about, so people don't bother.
Even look now. After Blaziken was banned, are you seeing less Azumarill and Slowbro? How about more Ferrothorn and Scizor?
Hax-Induceing Nature and being harmful for the metagame is a reason to be banned, however. Like the evasion items were, and Moody, which both put the whole game to a dice roll or two. Generally, these two overlap. After all, something which is broken is harmful for the metagame.
So, basically, things are banned because:
A: They are broken, thus, harmful to the metagame [Darkrai, Skymin, Blaziken]
B: They are harmful for the metagame, in a way that severely removes the effect of skill. [Moody]
ok id be okay or mildly ok with speed boost blaziken being ban. but there is absolutely no reason to ban blaze blaziken. unless its a problem with running agility. i think thats the only reason both were banned. no starter has ever broken a metagame. except infernape. blaziken needs to go to a recount. i believe there is a need for a recount.
I doubt a recount would even help the current situation. Blaziken was voted to Ubers by a 70% majority of the voters. A recount would yield the same result mind you. If you ask me, it's best to just wait it out until Grey arrives and then campaign for Blaziken's re-entry within the OU metagame. As it might arguably have more checks or even more counters. Heck who knows at the moment.
So just stop this meaningless arguement and when the time comes, then get good enough to vote and voice your opinion and bring it back down for a retest.
Simple.
The point is to catch it switching in (i.e. Ferrothorn fails to counter max SpA HP Fire Sharpedo). But I guess Sharpedo's shitty defenses makes predicting risky.
The problem with allowing blaze blaziken is that it would be banning an ability+pokemon (speedboost+blaziken) combination, which would set the precedence for other ability+pokemon suspects. If a pokemon is broken with any of its abilities, the entire pokemon is banned. Banning speed boost but keeping blaziken isn't a viable option either, as it would send ninjask, a staple in hyper offense teams, to ubers and ruin the viability of sharpedo in ou. Getting rid of blaziken is the best option.
While it is clear to all that standard Blaze is not broken, banning an ability+pokemon is almost exactly like banning a moveset on that pokemon, like saying Darkrai should be allowed in OU without Dark Void+Nasty Plot. That sort of regulation goes too far in changing the way the game was meant to be played in the eyes of pokemon's creators. Also, since Speed Boost isn't broken on every poke that uses it, combined with the fact that nobody would ever use Blaze seriously in OU if it WASN'T banned makes banning Speed Boost too harmful and not all that necessary.
I don't disagree with your conclusion, but this part of the argument is kind of silly. If we were playing the game the way it was meant to be played, wouldn't we all be using VGC rules? The point of Smogon is to let us, the players, modify the game so that we can play it competitively.
My opinion on why banning a "moveset" of Blaziken is bad is that it opens the door to all kinds of fine-tuning and fiddling that will take forever and a half to resolve. It's exactly like you said, what if we could allow Darkrai into OU without NP and DV? But wait, what if we just banned DV? Or NP? What about NP+Dark Pulse, would that work? Maybe NP and Focus Blast? What we're seeing with Blaziken and Aldaron's Proposal clearly shows that this community is, if nothing else, good at arguing for forever over trivialities. Best to keep a simple framework and not allow for overly complex bans.
I would like to personally remind everyone of the existence of "The Characteristics of a Desirable Metagame" written by DougJustDoug. I think it would help give some criterion to these debates
Been explained a couple of times, but I doubt that people would have ever used Blaziken if it didn't get Speed Boost. Why would you want to use a shittier Infernape?
Some people like Blaziken more?
I guess depending on how tiers roll out, Infernape wouldn't be available
the problem ive found with sharpedo is that he just dies and cant set up ever
his moves are too weak to really sweep
where as blaziken packs power and setup ability on top of that
and predictions dont mean anything
look at haxorus
making blaze blaziken legal isnt complicated.
last time i checked blaze was an ability not a move.
all that needs to be said is that any sb variant of blaziken is illegal
done in done.
infernape broke ou because it could function in too many rolls. it was a great sr lead because of its speed. it was a great mixed sweeper and IF USED CORRECTLY could be a annoying encore, taunt user. and it had access to swords dance and nasty plot.
blaziken was too hastily put to a banning. i mean i can easily manipulate a sb blaziken user. hell trick gengar cripples it. any trick user can. then account for blazikens shallow and predictable movepool. it spells an end for the fighting inferno
last time i checked blaze was an ability not a move.
all that needs to be said is that any sb variant of blaziken is illegal
done in done.
infernape broke ou because it could function in too many rolls. it was a great sr lead because of its speed. it was a great mixed sweeper and IF USED CORRECTLY could be a annoying encore, taunt user. and it had access to swords dance and nasty plot.
blaziken was too hastily put to a banning. i mean i can easily manipulate a sb blaziken user. hell trick gengar cripples it. any trick user can. then account for blazikens shallow and predictable movepool. it spells an end for the fighting inferno
sand teams probably will which sucks
Rain will be the one dominating the ladder and it already happen
The issue isn't in the complication, but in the domino effect that has already been explained.
I don't know what your smoking, but Ken has an amazing movepool. His standard was very commen, but he was the mence of Gen 5. He had only ONE counter and that was slowbro (which was 2HKO by +2 Shadow claw and destroyed by MixedKen). Checks are always nice, but not when most of them can't switch in. Jellicent had to be wary of shadow claw, azumaril can't switch into HJK, ect. He was absolutely ridiculous, and I am not even mentioning sun teams, as that eliminates even more potential checks.
Nothing has to be a 'complicated' ban if you can put it in perspective well enough. We can ban any number of things a Pokemon is capable of to make it seem balanced, just like we did with Swift Swimmers when Drizzle entered the ring. Want to bring back Blaze Blaziken? Sure, just rally up enough voters to get the job done.
But ah, wait, you have to get it onto the ballot first. This is where things get a little tricky. If you'll recall our most recent suspect vote, you'll notice that Phil rejected the nominations for Garchomp + Sand Veil because their flimsy argumentation and overall failure to denote its impact on the metagame. Fast forward to now, where Blaze supporters now assume the affirmative. Do you have any good reasons as to why we should go back and repeal the ban on Blaziken in favor of its inferior ability? What good could Blaze Blaziken do in OU? UU? NU?
I'm sure you're aware a lot of Ubers would not be so good if we took away whatever we assumed was the straw that broke the camel's back. How would you feel about a Kyogre that couldn't use any of its STAB moves? Maybe it's too threatening at level 100? Perhaps a Voidless Darkrai would not be too problematic. These are the kinds of things we need to start thinking about when we request unorthodox bans. There is no intrinsic logical basis for assuming which part of a Pokemon would not be Uber because they do not, in and of themselves, exist. Blaze Blaziken is not a broken Pokemon on the same basis that it isn't even a Pokemon; as far as I'm aware, Blaziken is a Pokemon capable of running two different abilities, and doesn't exist as a single entity in any case of your choosing.
When Garchomp was banned, I heard no outcry that it could have been saved sans Yache Berry and SD. When Salamence was banned, I heard nothing about bringing it back without DD, Draco Meteor, or Outrage. What makes X factor + Pokemon ban combinations all the rage now? Why is Blaze Blaziken any more worthy of support than any other individual set on the other Ubers?
Based on the previous vote, one can only assume that Latios and Deoxys-S are about to be booted next. Just saying.....
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