Tangela only takes hits slightly better then Tangrowth, I have done the calculatons, no more then 3%-5% at any time. Its a decent option when UU comes out but not OU.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Creative (and good) Movesets (READ THE OP FIRST)
- Thread starter sax king
- Start date
- Status
Yeah, for the analysis for Tangrowth I did the same. Physically, it takes hits so little better than Tangrowth that lefties almost entirely cancel it out. Specially, however, it does make a bigger difference, though I don't think investing as heavily as that set does is worth it when you're trying to be offensive - and I'm not sure if in practice it would avoid any significant OHKOs/2HKOs.
Will certainly give it a spin on a UU Sun team once the tier comes out, like you say it should do well there as a bulky alternative to the frailer Chlorophyllers presumably in that tier.
Well, it's mainly just because tangela has a bit more satk than tangrowth, tangrowth is a much better physical sweeper, but tangela is an satker, and can actually take satk hits.
Tangela has LOWER SP ATK than Tangrowth.
Even with the evolution stone, its only gets the base special defense of a pokemon with 86 special defense. 65 HP and 86 special defense, doesn't seem to take hits well to me.
Pidgeot @ Leftovers
Big Pecks/Tangled Feet
Bold/Impish Nature
252 HP / 128 Defense / 128 Speed
-Toxic
-Agility
-Featherdance
-Roost
The idea here is to use agility to boost your speed. With 128 EVs in speed, Pidgeot can then outspeed everything up to base 102 at +1 (meaning you can outspeed ScarfChomp). From there, you can use Featherdance to lower the Attack of whatever switches in. At this point, most attacks will do very little to you. For example, ScarfChomp's Stone Edge does less than half. Whenever you see fit, use toxic and begin toxic stalling with Roost. With it, you can toxic stall pokemon like Rotom-W, Garchomp, Scrafty, Tyranitar and really any physical attacker. This may seem really gimmicky (well, it is), but it can actually be very effective if used correctly and it forces a lot of switches (somewhat like yawn). Not to mention this thing is badass. But the best part is that no one will know what the hell you're doing. However, Steels will wall you, but you wall most of them too (for example no Scizor can touch you).
There are many good options to help this pokemon out. First, Blissey can handle the special threats that Pidgeot can't deal with while helping toxic stall. It can also use Aromatherapy to heal Pidgeot's status. Another good teammate is Ferrothorn. It can set up entry hazards while taking many electric and ice type moves that Pidgeot fears. Since Pidgeot forces a LOT of switches, the damage racks up quickly from hazards. Other pokemon that work in the same fashion like Heatran and Specially Defensive Forretress can also help Pidgeot. Finally, Pidgeot appreciates a good way to take out Steels; Magnezone is a good choice for obvious reasons.
Can't Malibuzz do this set better?
Respect for attempting a Pedgeot set first of all.
First, if Pidgeot itself gets Toxiced, it's screwed, and any Special Attacker takes this set out (and seeing as he's weak to Ice and Electric... yeah). However, I do see this set as being effective at forcing switches because of this being a physically dominant metagame, so you would have to have hazard support.
EDIT: And to answer your question, stats are not rounded up.
First, if Pidgeot itself gets Toxiced, it's screwed, and any Special Attacker takes this set out (and seeing as he's weak to Ice and Electric... yeah). However, I do see this set as being effective at forcing switches because of this being a physically dominant metagame, so you would have to have hazard support.
EDIT: And to answer your question, stats are not rounded up.
Well, this is why its a good idea to use Blissey. It can Heal Bell or Aromatherapy to heal Pidgeot's status, and sponge those special hits you mentioned. Also take note that Roost can help Pidgeot take ice and electric attacks very well (as I mentioned, you can stall Rotom-W). The only problem is that you have to Toxic on a predicted switch in order to do that.
EDIT: And to e4 d6 (chess fan?), Mandibuzz would not be able to use this set at all. It doesn't even learn Agility or Featherdance.
True, but at some point you are going to have to do something to either KO or force a switch, and with this set that means either using Toxic yourself or switching to another threat, and since this set is meant to stay in, that means that you leave yourself susceptible to those SE Electric and Ice attacks for at least one turn, which would likely be one turn too many.
Anyway, I feel like you should be investing in special defense because of featherdance cutting physical attack damage, but that's just me.
@Sajak
Thats why it requires you to toxic on the switch against special attackers. Given Team Preview, that isn't TOO difficult. Team support on this poke is also crucial; you need rapid spin because Pidgeot really relies on that 25% to get going. Secondly, you MUST have a good answer to every powerful special attacker (blissey can't do that sadly). Its a good thing that we got a bunch of good special walls this gen (ferrothorn, jellicent, etc.)
EDIT: If you predict a set up move (nasty plot on thundurus, etc.), you can use toxic, switch to blissey, and easily stall it out with softboiled or wish/protect
Thats why it requires you to toxic on the switch against special attackers. Given Team Preview, that isn't TOO difficult. Team support on this poke is also crucial; you need rapid spin because Pidgeot really relies on that 25% to get going. Secondly, you MUST have a good answer to every powerful special attacker (blissey can't do that sadly). Its a good thing that we got a bunch of good special walls this gen (ferrothorn, jellicent, etc.)
EDIT: If you predict a set up move (nasty plot on thundurus, etc.), you can use toxic, switch to blissey, and easily stall it out with softboiled or wish/protect
How are you supposed to use Toxic if you just came in and you need the Agility boost first? It's not like the opponent is just going to sit around for a turn and let you boost your speed, they're going straight to a counter, and if it's a special attacker you either get your speed boost on the switch or you use Toxic. Either way you will need to switch out, because in either situation they're not going to give you a reason to stay in.
I think special attackers pose a problem either way. I don't see you really doing a lot with featherdance + agility, I get what you can do to scarfchomp. I would recommend you replace agility with u-turn. This could work as it does a couple things:
-It allows you to scout your opponents immediate answer to Pidgeot and gain momentum.
-If you suspect something like Garchomp to switch in, you can just FeatherDance immediately, thus there is no need to use Agility.
Just some thoughts.
-It allows you to scout your opponents immediate answer to Pidgeot and gain momentum.
-If you suspect something like Garchomp to switch in, you can just FeatherDance immediately, thus there is no need to use Agility.
Just some thoughts.
You should also pair it with Ferrothorn or Forrestress and see if you can get all entry hazards up.
Also Magic Guard pokemon are going to be a pain so Gengar w/Choice Scarf/Life Orb should take Magic Guard pokemon out
@ Sajak
Most people won't switch in a special attacker straight away; this is where the surprise factor comes in. People will expect something like a choice band set (which pretty much all pidgeots do) and switch in something to wall it. After an agility, they still won't know what the fudge you're planning. As a result, setting up is quite easy. If this set becomes more popular, then this will become a problem. Also, blissey blissey blissey blissey blissey. (blissey)
@ Ray Jay
You could do that, but they could always just switch on a Roost and then be able to be faster and powerful enough to 1-hit ko you. Also, since this thing forces so many switches, you want to keep your momentum and being faster than almost anything (barring scarf terrakion or something like that. Basically, by giving up Agility you lose your ability to force switches.
@ Sy123
I did mention forretress and ferrothorn in the original post. As for magic guard, it is a pretty large problem. As a result, a good counter to Reuniclus is pretty much mandatory. (I was running Band Scizor and he countered it fine)
I think most of you are underestimating this set. After seeing it, you are probably like "Hey, thats easy to counter!" But the issue with this mindset is that 99% of people expect a return or brave bird or god forbid a subroost set. You have to KNOW the set in order to counter it. Heres what usually happens:
TURN 1: Pidgeot switches in
Opponent sets up rocks or something
TURN 2: Opponent switches to a physically defensive poke or a rock-type (like ttar)
Pidgeot uses agility
TURN 3: Pidgeot uses Toxic or Featherdance
Opponent says wtf and fails to do good damage
TURN 4+: Commence stalling
Usually the Agility makes them really confused. I've had conversations people on PO who asked me what I was doing. I didn't tell them (they found out soon enough though). This poke is a MONSTER at owning Rock types. It cripples pretty much any ttar or rhyperior (in UU) or anything like that. Whats amazing is that its usable in NU. This pokemon, in my opinion is definitely UU viable or even OU if your prediction is on-point.
Most people won't switch in a special attacker straight away; this is where the surprise factor comes in. People will expect something like a choice band set (which pretty much all pidgeots do) and switch in something to wall it. After an agility, they still won't know what the fudge you're planning. As a result, setting up is quite easy. If this set becomes more popular, then this will become a problem. Also, blissey blissey blissey blissey blissey. (blissey)
@ Ray Jay
You could do that, but they could always just switch on a Roost and then be able to be faster and powerful enough to 1-hit ko you. Also, since this thing forces so many switches, you want to keep your momentum and being faster than almost anything (barring scarf terrakion or something like that. Basically, by giving up Agility you lose your ability to force switches.
@ Sy123
I did mention forretress and ferrothorn in the original post. As for magic guard, it is a pretty large problem. As a result, a good counter to Reuniclus is pretty much mandatory. (I was running Band Scizor and he countered it fine)
I think most of you are underestimating this set. After seeing it, you are probably like "Hey, thats easy to counter!" But the issue with this mindset is that 99% of people expect a return or brave bird or god forbid a subroost set. You have to KNOW the set in order to counter it. Heres what usually happens:
TURN 1: Pidgeot switches in
Opponent sets up rocks or something
TURN 2: Opponent switches to a physically defensive poke or a rock-type (like ttar)
Pidgeot uses agility
TURN 3: Pidgeot uses Toxic or Featherdance
Opponent says wtf and fails to do good damage
TURN 4+: Commence stalling
Usually the Agility makes them really confused. I've had conversations people on PO who asked me what I was doing. I didn't tell them (they found out soon enough though). This poke is a MONSTER at owning Rock types. It cripples pretty much any ttar or rhyperior (in UU) or anything like that. Whats amazing is that its usable in NU. This pokemon, in my opinion is definitely UU viable or even OU if your prediction is on-point.
more realistic scenario
after seeing that you only have toxic, the opponent switches in skarmory or nattorei
the former wws you out, the latter leech seeds you; both set up entry hazards.
Pidgeot will not work.
(on a side note, it's outclassed by mew, who can run more or less the same set with iron defence/will-o-wisp)
after seeing that you only have toxic, the opponent switches in skarmory or nattorei
the former wws you out, the latter leech seeds you; both set up entry hazards.
Pidgeot will not work.
(on a side note, it's outclassed by mew, who can run more or less the same set with iron defence/will-o-wisp)
@ Breludicolo
So you are implying that if a pokemon counters another, then the pokemon countered is unusable? Last gen's lucario was completely walled by Gliscor-but he was used anyway. Your logic is incredibly flawed.
As for Mew, I have 4 reasons why he doesn't work.
1: He will (probably) go uber anyway, and this set can be run in UU and NU
2. Psychic is a terrible type (if your name isn't reuniclus)
3. Roost removes rock, ice, and electric weaknesses. Softboiled or Recover does nothing useful.
4. MEW DOESNT LEARN FEATHERDANCE. The whole point is to force switches and such. Without featherdance, you can't do this.
Thanks for the input, but it doesn't really apply. BUT sadly, Pidgeot does have a competitor who is 100% better at the same exact set. Prankster Murkrow can do the same thing. It can also run taunt. =( At least Pidgeot can still be used in UU and NU.
Btw, Magnezone says hi
So you are implying that if a pokemon counters another, then the pokemon countered is unusable? Last gen's lucario was completely walled by Gliscor-but he was used anyway. Your logic is incredibly flawed.
As for Mew, I have 4 reasons why he doesn't work.
1: He will (probably) go uber anyway, and this set can be run in UU and NU
2. Psychic is a terrible type (if your name isn't reuniclus)
3. Roost removes rock, ice, and electric weaknesses. Softboiled or Recover does nothing useful.
4. MEW DOESNT LEARN FEATHERDANCE. The whole point is to force switches and such. Without featherdance, you can't do this.
Thanks for the input, but it doesn't really apply. BUT sadly, Pidgeot does have a competitor who is 100% better at the same exact set. Prankster Murkrow can do the same thing. It can also run taunt. =( At least Pidgeot can still be used in UU and NU.
Btw, Magnezone says hi
Here is the new (and improved) set. This thing is absolutely AMAZING. Try it out, it will not fail you. Its also very annoying (a plus, definitely)
Murkrow @ Eviolite
Prankster
Bold Nature
252 HP / 252 Defense
-Toxic
-Taunt
-Featherdance
-Roost
You can use Featherdance to lower the Attack of any physical attacker. At this point, most attacks will do very little to you. For example, ScarfChomp's Stone Edge does less than half. Whenever you see fit, use toxic and begin toxic stalling with Roost. With it, you can toxic stall pokemon like Rotom-W, Garchomp, Scrafty, Tyranitar and really any physical attacker. Taunt stuff that try to set up or status you. This may seem really gimmicky (well, it is), but it can actually be very effective if used correctly and it forces a lot of switches (somewhat like yawn). Not to mention this thing is badass. But the best part is that no one will know what the hell you're doing. However, Steels will wall you, but you wall most of them too (for example no Scizor can touch you).
There are many good options to help this pokemon out. First, Blissey can handle the special threats that Murkrow can't deal with while helping toxic stall. It can also use Aromatherapy to heal Murkrow's status. Another good teammate is Ferrothorn. It can set up entry hazards while taking many electric and ice type moves that Murkrow fears. Since Murkrow forces a LOT of switches, the damage racks up quickly from hazards. Other pokemon that work in the same fashion like Heatran and Specially Defensive Forretress can also help Murkrow. Finally, Murkrow appreciates a good way to take out Steels; Magnezone is a good choice for obvious reasons.
This set works amazingly. With max defenses, not much can hurt you significantly. With a Bold nature and 252 defense, this can wall every physical attacker as well any weak special attacker. Basically, this is an absolute monster. You can and will wall a significant portion of the metagame without fail without any setup in this physically-based metagame. Trust me, it works. Try this and you will not regret it. Like in my post before, you can substitute Pidgeot with leftovers in lower tiers (if Murkrow gets banned from them, which is possible).
Murkrow @ Eviolite
Prankster
Bold Nature
252 HP / 252 Defense
-Toxic
-Taunt
-Featherdance
-Roost
You can use Featherdance to lower the Attack of any physical attacker. At this point, most attacks will do very little to you. For example, ScarfChomp's Stone Edge does less than half. Whenever you see fit, use toxic and begin toxic stalling with Roost. With it, you can toxic stall pokemon like Rotom-W, Garchomp, Scrafty, Tyranitar and really any physical attacker. Taunt stuff that try to set up or status you. This may seem really gimmicky (well, it is), but it can actually be very effective if used correctly and it forces a lot of switches (somewhat like yawn). Not to mention this thing is badass. But the best part is that no one will know what the hell you're doing. However, Steels will wall you, but you wall most of them too (for example no Scizor can touch you).
There are many good options to help this pokemon out. First, Blissey can handle the special threats that Murkrow can't deal with while helping toxic stall. It can also use Aromatherapy to heal Murkrow's status. Another good teammate is Ferrothorn. It can set up entry hazards while taking many electric and ice type moves that Murkrow fears. Since Murkrow forces a LOT of switches, the damage racks up quickly from hazards. Other pokemon that work in the same fashion like Heatran and Specially Defensive Forretress can also help Murkrow. Finally, Murkrow appreciates a good way to take out Steels; Magnezone is a good choice for obvious reasons.
This set works amazingly. With max defenses, not much can hurt you significantly. With a Bold nature and 252 defense, this can wall every physical attacker as well any weak special attacker. Basically, this is an absolute monster. You can and will wall a significant portion of the metagame without fail without any setup in this physically-based metagame. Trust me, it works. Try this and you will not regret it. Like in my post before, you can substitute Pidgeot with leftovers in lower tiers (if Murkrow gets banned from them, which is possible).
@ The above: Borutorosu@Life Orb (252 EVs, +Nature) Thunder vs Murkrow@Evolution Stone (252/252 EVs, +Nature): 132 ~ 156.1% (428 ~ 506 HP)
Yeah, it really doesn't wall every attacker in the game, don't claim it does. The strategy is decent, but things that hit hard enough can and will break it, as well as Toxic immune, other Pranksters etc giving you big issues. In any case, Murkrow is more viable than Pigeot, so that's good at least.
I may try and adapt that set into a perish trap one, since FeatherDance may help it survive the 3 turns, and much less is immune to Perish Song than Toxic. Even so, incredibly strong SpAtkers will blast through it, Murkrow just isn't that bulky.
Yeah, it really doesn't wall every attacker in the game, don't claim it does. The strategy is decent, but things that hit hard enough can and will break it, as well as Toxic immune, other Pranksters etc giving you big issues. In any case, Murkrow is more viable than Pigeot, so that's good at least.
I may try and adapt that set into a perish trap one, since FeatherDance may help it survive the 3 turns, and much less is immune to Perish Song than Toxic. Even so, incredibly strong SpAtkers will blast through it, Murkrow just isn't that bulky.
Okay, maybe he can't wall the really powerful special attackers. But he is very effective at what he does. I didn't really mean that he can wall every attacker, rather I meant that he can scare away a significantly large portion of the metagame. Also keep in mind that Roost halves that damage, meaning if you toxic that thing on the switch, you can toxic stall for 1 or 2 turns. I kind of posted that a little too soon without testing the set enough. However, it still is very good at what its meant for.
EDIT: I see know why I thought this set would be so good. I looked at his Base Stats and thought that his attack stats were his defenses. So in other words, I was completely wrong.
So basically, you can scratch that part about special attacks. I was doing damage calcs assuming he had base 8x defenses (forgot what it was). Sorry about that. So this poke is basically just a physical defensive one now. So yeah, if anyone isn't as lazy as me, I would really like some calcs (like +0 Dory Rock Slide). He might actually be able to end a dory sweep without priority atacks.
EDIT: I see know why I thought this set would be so good. I looked at his Base Stats and thought that his attack stats were his defenses. So in other words, I was completely wrong.
So basically, you can scratch that part about special attacks. I was doing damage calcs assuming he had base 8x defenses (forgot what it was). Sorry about that. So this poke is basically just a physical defensive one now. So yeah, if anyone isn't as lazy as me, I would really like some calcs (like +0 Dory Rock Slide). He might actually be able to end a dory sweep without priority atacks.
Well, the Pigeot set you posted would have 370/233/176 defences, and Murkrow would reach 324/180/302. If you moved the EVs you could get Murkrow to hit 324/274/199 which is pretty similar bulk (loss of Lefties hurts though) - or you could invest in SpD more. Given Murkrow's ability and the extra moveslot not used by Agility, he outclasses Pigoet almost wholly imo. That said, from looking at things who could use this combo, Altaria stands out as a possible abuser who has much better defences, so if not using Murkrow for the Prankster ability I'd go with her.
Yeah, I did move the EVs to make it 100% physically defensive. The main reason, however, to use Murkrow is that it can Taunt things that try to set up or status you.
Since there are no movesets in the above post, I might as well throw my hand into the deck!
I'm shocked no one's capitalized on stockpile. while it isn't the best move out there, I know someone who'd love it!
I'm shocked no one's capitalized on stockpile. while it isn't the best move out there, I know someone who'd love it!
Dewgong @ Lefties
Hydration
Calm Nature
252 HP / 200 Defense / 52 Special Defense
-Rest
-Substitute/Toxic
-Stockpile
-HP ground/fire/encore
Hydration
Calm Nature
252 HP / 200 Defense / 52 Special Defense
-Rest
-Substitute/Toxic
-Stockpile
-HP ground/fire/encore
I still have yet to test this, but after one stockpile, dewgong reaches a moderatley good stat spread of 384/369/396. The main reason I chose dewgong over the other possible stockers was hydration. Dewgong already had a decent time abusing it, and rest allows the sea lion to heal off status (not like it matters in the rain.), and being a reliable healing move. Substitue is assuming you've got toxic spikes support. if not just go with toxic. Stockpile is the main move on this set, and offers a +1 boost to both of dewgong's stats. Hidden power ground hits both steel and poison types that are immune to the toxic otherwise. HP fire is suggested because it can be used to catch specific threats (such as ferrothorn). They also ensure taunt won't just force you to struggle. If you aren't concerned about that, encore can catch other walls, or boosters into a switch, which should provide time to get a stockpile or sub up.
As far as help goes... Two things are REQUIRED for this to function properly. First is politoed, obviously. Drizzle allows dewgong to abuse hydration to it's fullest effect, allowing rest to give you 100% of your health back for no drawbacks. The second would be toxic spikes, which greatly helps dewy out, since it allows it to ditch toxic for a different move. Roserade is a nice choice, since it resists three out of 4 of dewgong's weaknesses and can hit them hard with it's STAB attacks. While Tentacruel does share electric weaknesses, it's traditionally a better set-up of the move, and resists fighting fairly nicely. Just watch out for quakes from pokemon such as throh and conkledurr (although you might catch them both with encore)
As far as help goes... Two things are REQUIRED for this to function properly. First is politoed, obviously. Drizzle allows dewgong to abuse hydration to it's fullest effect, allowing rest to give you 100% of your health back for no drawbacks. The second would be toxic spikes, which greatly helps dewy out, since it allows it to ditch toxic for a different move. Roserade is a nice choice, since it resists three out of 4 of dewgong's weaknesses and can hit them hard with it's STAB attacks. While Tentacruel does share electric weaknesses, it's traditionally a better set-up of the move, and resists fighting fairly nicely. Just watch out for quakes from pokemon such as throh and conkledurr (although you might catch them both with encore)
Are you saying that ice is a bad type? Thats just silly, have you ever heard of Weavile, Mamoswine, Cloyster, or Lapras? And becuase its an ice type is can get a STAB ice beam, something a pure water type can't say.
- Status