I agree 100%. I have no desire to implement any "complex bans" in Little Cup and I expect Dubulous feels the same way. And as for the stupid "FREE YANMA" posts, back them up with reasoning if you actually feel as though Yanma should be unbanned or they will be met with a swift deletion and warning.That solution is way too convoluted to actually be implemented in our official rules.
My biggest problem here is that you don't actually prove or show that Eviolite is behind any of the bans. I'd imagine this would be a hard task anyway considering....well....that it isn't the case. It is behind some of the suspects, maybe, but not eventual bans.I’m sure I’m not the only one who realises this, but nearly every single suspect that has ever been nominated or discussed in any of these threads have something in common. Eviolite. This single item has defined the Generation V Little Cup metagame from the start, I would go so far as to say that this item is the most influential and revolutionary thing to ever be introduced to any metagame. Whether that influence is good or not, I am no longer sure, it is up for debate. Most of you would know that I voted to keep Eviolite in our first suspect test, and was one of its more vocal defenders. Since then, I have come to think that perhaps I was wrong.
Looking back at all the other suspect threads, Eviolite stands out as the reason behind all eventual bans, except for Moody. If multiple Pokémon are broken with an item, then it is the item that is broken. Banning anything other than a Pokémon however, is an emergency measure, especially in this case, where the item in question is arguably the most important aspect of the metagame. Eviolite makes Little Cup what it is, and banning it would change everything.
My biggest problem here is that you don't actually prove or show that Eviolite is behind any of the bans. I'd imagine this would be a hard task anyway considering....well....that it isn't the case. It is behind some of the suspects, maybe, but not eventual bans.
Murkrow was not banned for its Eviolite set - unless I'm mistaken (and consequently if I'm mistaken then I feel it was wrongly banned). The Life Orb set was way bigger of a problem.
Murkrow was not banned due to anyone set, it was banned due to the sheer versatility that it had. AFAIK the Life Orb set was actually dismissed a lot due to its lack of survivability, although it was very good. Murkrow's versatility though was due to Eviolite, as it allowed it to run most of its sets (CM FeatherDance etc.)
Scyther is broken because Scyther is broken, it would destroy the metagame without an item at all. Eviolite is not relevant. Yanma is similar to Scyther in that it doesn't even need an item to be broken, but not to the same extent. Tangela is on same boat as Scyther, even though Eviolite was insane on Tangela. Sneasel? If you used Eviolite Sneasel then you were doing it very wrong. Out of all of the Pokemon who've been banned so far, I don't think we have one Pokemon who was banned because of Eviolite.
I was refering to all the nominations that were made in the past, Scraggy, Meditite and Murkrow, not the initial banlist, sorry if that was a little unclear.
And for the record, I do think Eviolite is possibly broken, but it didn't have anything to do with previous bans.
As for the idea of removal for testing:
I really can't see the logic in "testing something by not testing it". We've tried it before with the old UU tests and it was shown to not only be irrelevant, but create major biases in voting by a) diminishing our memories of the item and even unintentionally exaggerating our points b) creating a situation in which you are voting for a metagame rather than on whether or not we have something broken.
This is absolutely correct, however, I feel that any Eviolite ban is going to be based on metagame preference anyway, which is the reason I voted to keep it in the first test. :(
I think that because Eviolite is so important to the metagame, it would be both irresponsible and stupid to ban it without seeing the effects its banning would have, because realistically, any Eviolite vote is a choice between HO and stall anyway, I'd prefer if people could make the vote better informed.
You are going in circles; we are back at the part where we don't think we should test something by not testing it.My argument is, that Eviolite is broken and should be banned because of that, however, I also think that keeping Eviolite may also be healthy for the metagame , which is why a test is needed.
Life Orb Timid Misdreavus Shadow Ball:
18 Atk vs 24 Def & 23 HP (80 Base Power): 7 - 10 (30.43% - 43.48%) ->
Avg of 9 Damage [B]3HKO[/B]
[COLOR="Blue"]Life Orb Timid Misdreavus Shadow Ball +2:
36 Atk vs 24 Def & 23 HP (80 Base Power): 16 - 21 (69.57% - 91.30%) ->
Avg of 18 Damage [B]2HKO[/B][/COLOR]
Eviolite (Non-Attack boosting Item) Timid Misdreavus:
18 Atk vs 24 Def & 23 HP (80 Base Power): 7 - 9 (30.43% - 39.13%) - >
Avg of 7 Damage [B]4HKO[/B]
Eviolite (Non-Attack boosting Item) Timid Misdreavus +2:
36 Atk vs 24 Def & 23 HP (80 Base Power): 13 - 16 (56.52% - 69.57%) ->
Avg of 15 Damage [B]2HKO[/B]
Life Orb Mild Houndour:
18 Atk vs 24 Def & 23 HP (120 Base Power): 9 - 11 (39.13% - 47.83%) ->
Avg of 9 Damage [B]3HKO[/B]
Life Orb Naive Houndour:
17 Atk vs 24 Def & 23 HP (120 Base Power): 8 - 10 (34.78% - 43.48%) ->
Avg of 9 Damage [B]3HKO[/B]
Life Orb Adamant Carvanha:
19 Atk vs 15 Def & 23 HP (80 Base Power): 16 - 19 (69.57% - 82.61%) ->
Avg of 16 Damage [B]2HKO[/B]
[COLOR="Red"]Eviolite (Non-Attack boosting Item) Adamant Timburr:
18 Atk vs 15 Def & 23 HP (75 Base Power): 10 - 13 (43.48% - 56.52%) ->
Avg of 12 Damage [B]2HKO[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR="Blue"]Eviolite (Non-Attack boosting Item) Adamant Meditite:
28 Atk vs 15 Def & 23 HP (80 Base Power): 16 - 19 (69.57% - 82.61%) ->
Avg of 16 Damage [B]2HKO[/B][/COLOR]
[COLOR="Blue"]Life Orb Adamant Meditite:
28 Atk vs 15 Def & 23 HP (80 Base Power): 19 - 24 (82.61% - 104.35%) ->
Avg of 21 Damage [B]2HKO[/B][/COLOR]
Eviolite (Non-Attack boosting Item) Jolly 16 Atk Scraggy:
16 Atk vs 15 Def & 23 HP (80 Base Power): 9 - 12 (39.13% - 52.17%) ->
Avg of 10 Damage [B]3HKO[/B]
To this I kinda agree. Unless you're using something with recovery or something incredibly bulky, Oran is generally a superior option, as it allows you take take a lot more single attacks and come back to a comfortable, while Eviolite only lessens these hits, and not to a great enough extent to make running it a better idea.lol, I had fogotten Sun was still allowed on Smogon.
Oran Berry is almost always better than Eviolite, despite he calculations, since Stealth Rock will be on our field more often that not... unless you're going to run Rapid Spin in a Drought team (lol).
Well all Drought teams are pretty much required to use a Vulpix (unless you're user Masterful heh). I thought we could discuss what's the best set for one so important to a possible suspect Playstyle or Pokemon/Ability.This isn't really the place for it, but what about morning sun? :p
The three on the left are its tails, the six on the top are its hair, you can't see the other tails cus the hair is blocking :o.Niether Vulpix nor Ninetales learn Morning Sun. Side note, you have 3 too many tails in your painting :)
I run a Taunt Gligar on my team, so more often then not, I can prevent Stealth Rock from being placed on my side of the Field, though it does get past me sometimes, so I can see your point. Does Oran Berry automatically activate if say you switch in a Vulpix at 63% that gets knocked down to 37% because of Stealth Rock, if so then I might think about Oran Berry.Oran Berry is almost always better than Eviolite, despite he calculations, since Stealth Rock will be on our field more often that not... unless you're going to run Rapid Spin in a Drought team (lol).
True on the Gligar part though I usually prevent Stealth Rock long enough in my battles, for it not to affect me as much.Taunt Gligar isn't very good stopping other Gligar from setting it up tbh, lol. But yes, it does activate like that Al (I'm like 95% sure).
Also, Drought was pretty damn broken before people started abusing CM Krow, so I'm pretty sure it will be broken without it around. People kinda gave up on Drought before they realized how retardedly broken it really is. So unless people start using that stupid Curse + Dragon Tail RestTalk Lickitung again, it should be potent enough to get an actual nomination.
On the subject of an Eviolite-less metagame - Would it be that hard to open a non-Eviolite ladder for a month or so to see how the metagame changes? I honestly believe once people play without Eviolite, they'll be all like "ew its just like Gen 4, I'd rather play with it" or something.
Finally, with the 15+15 system, people can qualify in 3 battles. Paragraphs was better.
This is the problem I see many unexperienced or sorry to say noobish weather teams (or mostly sun in this tier) have. Most of them just try to build their teams for outright fast sweeps and destruction, while that may not be a horrible strategy, I find the most effective sun teams in LC and a few other tiers, is somewhat of a Balanced or even Defensive team. The problem with all out offensive Sun is that it has many full stop Pokemon for a lot of the sweepers, such as Flash Fire, Vullaby, Lickitung, Swablu, and etc. When those full offensive players see these Pokemon they somewhat scramble, because a lot of the Chlorophyll sweepers rely on Growth sweeps which is hard to pull off twice, so they are easily worn down by just switched to counters or checks with those Pokemon. SolarBeam, an obviously popular move on Sun teams, is also just as easily abused thanks to Cloud Nine and Weather changing Pokemon.I honestly have not had any trouble with Sun. Drought teams are often frail enough to where all you need to do is be able to tank one hit with virtually any Eviolite Mon and strike back with a relatively powerful move for the KO. It also doesn't seem to have the outright power to break through really defensive teams, from my point of view at least.
Cherubi +2 HP Rock vs 116 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Careful Vullaby:
32 Atk vs 24 Def & 25 HP (70 Base Power): 14 - 18 (56.00% - 72.00%) ->
Avg of 16 Damage [B]2HKO[/B]
Cherubi +2 HP Rock vs 212 HP / 240 SDef Eviolite Modest Vulpix:
32 Atk vs 24 Def & 23 HP (70 Base Power): 14 - 18 (60.87% - 78.26%) ->
Avg of 16 Damage [B]2HKO[/B]
Cherubi +2 HP Rock vs 212 HP / 160 SDef Oran Berry Modest Vulpix:
32 Atk vs 15 Def & 23 HP (70 Base Power): 22 - 26 (95.65% - 113.04%) ->
Avg of 22 Damage [B]2HKO (1HKO with any type of previous Damage)[/B]
Cherubi +2 HP Rock vs 36 HP Life Orb Jolly Ponyta:
32 Atk vs 13 Def & 22 HP (70 Base Power): 24 - 30 (109.09% - 136.36%) ->
[B]OHKO[/B]
Deerling +0 Jump Kick vs Standard 196 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Careful Lickitung:
16 Atk vs 21 Def & 28 HP (100 Base Power): 12 - 16 (42.86% - 57.14%) ->
Avg of 14 Damage [B]2HKO[/B]
Deerling +1 Return vs 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Careful Vullaby:
24 Atk vs 24 Def & 25 HP (102 Base Power): 12 - 15 (48.00% - 60.00%) ->
Avg of 13 Damage [B]2HKO[/B]
Deerling +0 Return vs 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Modest Vulpix:
16 Atk vs 15 Def & 23 HP (102 Base Power): 12 - 15 (52.17% - 65.22%) ->
Avg of 13 Damage [B]2HKO[/B]
Deerling +1 Return vs 212 HP / 40 Def Oran Berry Modest Vulpix:
24 Atk vs 11 Def & 23 HP (102 Base Power): 24 - 28 (104.35% - 121.74%) ->
[B]OHKO[/B]
Deerling +1 Return vs 36 HP Life Orb Jolly Ponyta:
24 Atk vs 12 Def & 22 HP (102 Base Power): 22 - 27 (100.00% - 122.73%) ->
[B]OHKO[/B]
That's no better than me theorymonning that a lot more pokemon would get significantly better with an eviolite-less metagame. However, the discussion isn't about the metagame, it's about whether or not eviolite is actually broken. And both sides have basically agreed to put off an eviolite test for a while now, at least until we can get the suspects out of the meta or decide they aren't broken.Returnig to the eviolite-less metagame is really not something i would personally enjoy, the fact that this meta is more balanced and i encourage variety instead of just spamming the same STAB over and over again is what attact me for the first time (i liked it last gen, but i was mostly gimmicky player)
I replied to this for other reasons but I decided that I might as well say that imo gligar has better things to be doing than laying SR.[/quote]Taunt Gligar isn't very good stopping other Gligar from setting it up tbh, lol. But yes, it does activate like that Al (I'm like 95% sure).
That's not how suspect testing works. We're trying to determine if the item is broken, and not "which metagame we like better". Early gen 4 uu worked this way. I wasn't around for this, ask heysup fo more details.On the subject of an Eviolite-less metagame - Would it be that hard to open a non-Eviolite ladder for a month or so to see how the metagame changes?
I think it should be 8-12+15, because it is easy as hell to get reqs now. But paragraphs was an awful system. People ripped stuff from the suspect thread and got to vote on the metagame without ever playing it.Finally, with the 15+15 system, people can qualify in 3 battles. Paragraphs was better.