np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[Vladimir]

I don't understand the point in having suspect testing rounds when the majority appears to believe that OU is balanced. It makes people think that there's something inherently wrong with the metagame whether that's the case or not.

For the record, i personally find this metagame horrible, for whatever my opinion's worth. After climbing the ladder for a bit, you always encounter the same team with slight variations, Tyranitar/ Nattorei/ Gliscor/ Garchomp/ Excadrill/ Latios or Water-type...

 

[Nkululeko]

I don't understand the point in having suspect testing rounds when the majority appears to believe that OU is balanced. It makes people think that there's something inherently wrong with the metagame whether that's the case or not.

There was a suggestion to suspend suspect testing for awhile but it didn't really catch on. Looks like some people really hate Reuniclus/Ferrathorn and want Giratina.

For the record, i personally find this metagame horrible, for whatever my opinion's worth. After climbing the ladder for a bit, you always encounter the same team with slight variations, Tyranitar/ Nattorei/ Gliscor/ Garchomp/ Excadrill/ Latios or Water-type...

The variety available in the tier doesn't always match the variety you see in your matches. Who would've thought in OU there would be pokes so blatantly overused?

 

[Demoness]

For the record, i personally find this metagame horrible, for whatever my opinion's worth. After climbing the ladder for a bit, you always encounter the same team with slight variations, Tyranitar/ Nattorei/ Gliscor/ Garchomp/ Excadrill/ Latios or Water-type...

Ok, I have to call bullshit on this one. Sure, theres a good amount of teams that look the same due to people only wanting to use the most common Pokemon, but i've seen plenty of other teams that differ from each other quite greatly.

 

[jas61292]

The variety available in the tier doesn't always match the variety you see in your matches. Who would've thought in OU there would be pokes so blatantly overused?

Funny thing. No one. Why? Because Pokemon are not so blatantly overused. At least not compared to 4th gen. Lets look at the facts, and compare the current usage stats to those at the end of 4th gen.

Most used Pokemon:
5th Gen: Ferrothorn 21.36%
4th Gen: Heatran 26.57%

Second most used:
5th Gen: Tyranitar 20.81%
4th Gen: Scizor 22.08%

Total number of Pokemon above 15%
5th Gen: 4
4th Gen: 11

Total number of Pokemon above 10%
5th Gen: 14
4th Gen: 19


Now its true that we do have more Pokemon to choose from now, but the fact remains that you are significantly less likely to see any given team multiple times than at any point previously.

 

[Ulevo]

That is a given when you consider that the pool of usable Pokemon is larger. Pokemon such as Lucario or Infernape are not bad by any means, they're just seen less now because similar Pokemon who fit a specific niche take more of their slots since they are no longer the single entity capable of fitting their own roles. That said, they're still powerful options available to any player that are capable of helping the players chances competitively on the ladder. This will continue to happen as each generation is released.

When people talk about weather teams, what they're really talking about is themed teams. The premise is that because Sandstream, Drizzle and Drought are "everywhere", these teams are themed, and thus there is a lack of variety in what is competitively useful. If it doesn't fit the theme, it isn't being used, and thus a portion of the useful Pokemon in the metagame get shafted.

The problem with this ideology is that Sandstream is the dominant weather effect by far, and serves as more of an anti-weather effect due to its limited capabilities of abusing the sand itself and more or less acting as a way to prevent Drought or Drizzle from functioning. Because of this, many Pokemon are usable on a team that has sand because the only implications this will have for the team is anything that isn't Rock, Ground or Steel will be dealt 6% per turn, which isn't a very big problem at all. This is very convenient when you consider that unlike Politoed or Ninetales, Tyranitar is an excellent and very functional Pokemon on many teams.

Add to the fact that the premise of Drizzle or Drought teams being limited to selective Pokemon is false and you can see how teams still have plenty of variety to choose from.

In short, sand teams are just like they were in Gen IV, with a couple of Pokemon actually capable of abusing the condition but otherwise still acting as more as passive damage than an actual weather, while preventing Drizzle and Drought from seeing too much use. If you ask me, looking at the statistics, it seems like we just have a case of Gen IV all over again with the option of utilizing Drought and Drizzle should a player want to try something else.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

@The 10% thing.

I pretty much stopped talking about it yesterday when Mario explained it. (In such a way that made it nearly impossible to understand)

...Hey. What didn't you understand?

Everyone was up in arms about letting mew and deoxys-S into OU. Mew is UBER!!! It's too powerful for OU! It can baton pass anything! And where is mew now? UU. Deoxys-S too. Kyurem, the dragon type with twin base 130 offenses, draco meteor and an uber level 660 BST in in UU as well. How about the fabled V-Create Victini? UU too.

Well, V-Create Victini was only allowed in UU because it was added only by the end of the month and people (myself included) took too long to realize it.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

Funny thing. No one. Why? Because Pokemon are not so blatantly overused. At least not compared to 4th gen. Lets look at the facts, and compare the current usage stats to those at the end of 4th gen.

Most used Pokemon:
5th Gen: Ferrothorn 21.36%
4th Gen: Heatran 26.57%

Second most used:
5th Gen: Tyranitar 20.81%
4th Gen: Scizor 22.08%

Total number of Pokemon above 15%
5th Gen: 4
4th Gen: 11

Total number of Pokemon above 10%
5th Gen: 14
4th Gen: 19


Now its true that we do have more Pokemon to choose from now, but the fact remains that you are significantly less likely to see any given team multiple times than at any point previously.

This.

Also :

Tyranitar usage :
5th Gen : 20.81%
4th Gen : 18.77%

Hippowdon usage :
5th Gen : 4.72%
4th Gen : 4.87%

Tyranitar is and has always been a great, useful and versatile pokemon (and Hippo one of the best physical walls), so we can't really talk about 25% of sand teams the same way we talk about about 10% of rain teams. There are a whopping two sand abuser : Excadrill, ranked # 7, and Landorus, ranked #43, even below Hippowdon. You could argue that Terrakion gets a nice extra room to set up, but he's #34. So please, stop labeling any team with TTar or Hippowdon as a "sand team", as the fact is that sand has, at most, 2% more usage than last gen.

 

[Yeah Galo Sengan]

you don't count garchomp as a sand abuser?

 

[rickatick]

Anything that resists sand is pretty much a sand abuser.

 

[KurashiDragon]

You were doubting the defense of the Calm Minder which is why I made that example.

@JT Swift: if Giratina was brought down to OU then the people who are opposed would bitch more and we'd have the Latias fiasco from gen 4 OU all over again. Giratina is not OU material.

I think you got it backwards. If you read my previous posts you'd see that I use CM reuniclus myself and never question it's bulk.

@Mario

Pretty much the whole thing. I saw a text and went @_@ as I looked through it again and again. It's kinda complicated. ;) Then again I even get confused by my own wall of text.

 

[alphatron]

In the thread for the second suspect round, some of the pro ban weather4 crowd said that the ban should only apply to drought and drizzle, as sand was not problematic at all.

Would banning drought and drizzle reduce the usage of the top ten pokemon? Would less players use tyranitar (possibly anti weather teams) ignoring the fact that he is simply an amazing pokemon who can run offensive and supportive sets, revenging latios, etc?

Since banning ALL weather is the same as currently banning both tyranitar and hippodown, I find it hard to imagine that anybody actually wants to ban anything beyond drought and drizzle. Tyranitar is not a situational pokemon. He does not exist solely to counter weather and does a great job currently supporting and dealing with common threats.

If only drought and drizzle get banned, absolutely nothing will change. The top teams will remain consistent, and everyone will either be running the top sand team or an inferior build.

If ALL weather gets banned, it will be the most hilarious thing to ever occur in the history of smogon's pokemon metagame, as tyranitar and hippo enter ubers.

Just so I understand, the people who desire a metagamje without any weather are merely referring to drought and drizzle, correct?1

 

[jas61292]

Anything that resists sand is pretty much a sand abuser.

This is just not true. Do they mind sand? No. But can they abuse it? No. Use and abuse and not the same thing

 

[Innocent Criminal]

you don't count garchomp as a sand abuser?

Garchomp's ability is a different issue, but it's really not the same kind of abusing than Excadrill of Thundurus. He doesn't need SS to function properly, that's just an additional chance of getting a somewhat unfair advantadge.

Some people keep giving reasons why X is good, but being even the best pokemon in a metagame has never been a reason for a ban. What you need to prove is that said pokemon breaks the game. Wobb was broken because it forced the opponent to choose between saccing a pokemon you want gone or giving you a free turn, and there was literally no way to prevent it. Brightpowder was banned not for brokenness, but for uncompetitiveness : luck is fine as long as you can work around it or it is a choice, but these forced unavoidable dice rolls, which is undesirable.

Which is why I would like to bring up sand veil and snow cloak. Let's not fool ourselves, this means garchomp, the only common abuser. While I don't believe him to be broken, its ability is uncompetitive, as it turns otherwise straightforwards matchups into a dice roll. When two players of the same level face each other, with an even team match-up, the garchomp user WILL get an unfair advantage and most likely win on time out of five, and that's assuming it doesn't sub up. This is a completely different kind of luck than stone edge, as by using this move, you willingly give your opponent a chance to overtake you : desirable risk vs reward. In this case, garchomp gets a huge reward for taking with absolutely no risk, and more importantly, there is no safe, luck-free option option against him.

However, as I don't believe garchomp (or any other abuser) to be broken outside of that auto-win chance and a blanket ban would reduce diversity, i would advocate a Sand Veil +Sandstream ban. Please don't take this as the dreaded slippery slope of death finally happening : I think, as many others I assume, that "Weather abuse + Weather casting" is the only combo ban acceptable when you obviously need both abilities for the undesirable effect to appear. It is, however, the best solution as it improves competitive value without removing options.

 

[Ewil]

I believe that Sand-veil needs a ban when all dream-world's users ability will be released so you can take Rough skin Garchomp without ban the pkmn (that is top-tier, not broken).
It's only a matter of time. I think we can survive 'till all abilities released.

 

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I believe that Sand-veil needs a ban when all dream-world's users ability will be released so you can take Rough skin Garchomp without ban the pkmn (that is top-tier, not broken).
It's only a matter of time. I think we can survive 'till all abilities released.

Surely if you can survive until the abilities are released, then it's probably not broken (especially given that you don't even know when, if ever, it'll be released)?

If Sand Veil is actually broken, you should just ban it. If Garchomp gets banned, so be it. It's broken if Sand Veil is broken.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

If we can "survive" until all the DW abilities are released, then why can't we "survive" Sand Veil after those abilities are released...?


EDIT -- Eh, outsped by a Shuckle.

 

[Ewil]

Sand-Veil it's an evasion-increase ability like Snow-cloak, so it belongs to the Evasion-clause, simply. The only real abuser of sand-veil it's garchomp, so we can ban it 'till rough skin will be released, then we can discuss about a re-entry in the OU proposing a sand-veil ban or a complex ban like someone said before: Sand-veil+Sand Stream in the same team.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

The Evasion Clause was only for moves which increased Evasion; if we are to add abilities and items to it, there has to be an explanation, you can't just say "it belongs to the Clause" because it never actually belonged to it.

If Garchomp is the only real abuser of it, then I can't see why we can't consider it part of Garchomp and thus, ban Garchomp as "the pokémon which has a 20% chance of evading any move in Sandstorm".

And I guess no one noticed, but Rising Dusk banned Brightpowder in every other gen because "it was banned for being a violation of Evasion Clause". I hope you guys realize that, if we were to ban Sand Veil/Snow Cloak for that same reason, Froslass would be Uber in DPPt.

 

[Jibaku]

I hope you guys realize that, if we were to ban Sand Veil/Snow Cloak for that same reason, Froslass would be Uber in DPPt.

More than this. If Sand Veil/Snow Cloak was banned under evasion clause it'd ban Froslass FROM Ubers.

 

[Ewil]

that's why i wanna wait the dw abilities.

'till it doesn't occurs, we can ban garchomp, take garchomp, make a complex ban (i don't really want it).

Any other option ? What do you think guys ?

 

[SJCrew]

The bolded section. I disagree. If we bring down giratina and it settles into OU comfortably, that's not a delusion. Stop treating the 680BST ubers like a single overpowered entity that has to be locked away and forgotten. They can all be individualized and separated. Yes, arceus or kyogre are too powerful for OU. This has no bearing on the status of giratina because it's a wall. It may be a wall with STAB draco meteor, but it's not the same thing as rayquaza.

Whoops, strawman. I didn't make an argument about Giratina's base stats being the sole reason it's Uber. My argument, like many others are that, Giratina is blatantly broken. Unlike Kyurem, a famous example of base why base stat totals aren't everything, Giratina has a better defensive typing, movepool, and stats allocated in just the right place for it to survive the impending apocalypse.

I just showed you that nothing physical in OU is going to kill it. With CM, nothing special in OU is going to kill it. You haven't even suggested any viable counters to it. Maybe you'd like to get on that before you try to convince us that Giratina should be OU?

Everyone was up in arms about letting mew and deoxys-S into OU.

No they weren't. In fact, that's the exact reason why they were brought down. Mew's main niche in Gen 4 was Baton Passing and it doesn't seem to be all that hot in Gen 5. In Gen 4 Deoxys-S was a supporter. There is now no lead metagame for it to dominate. And it's still being put up for debate as to whether or not it is overpowered.

Simply put, those Pokemon were brought down to OU under reasonable circumstances: it's a new gen, everything is stronger, and they're not as obvious as the more overpowering Ubers. Yours is "I think Giratina might not be broken. Let's test it just because. It doesn't even look all that powerful." See below for my response.

None of you can say for certain that it will be bad, just like I can't say it will be good. The argument works both ways guys.

Unfortunately, that's not true. It's your job to convince us that Giratina has potential in OU because it's currently Uber and you'll need the support of many people, not to mention good arguments, in the suspect nominations thread for it to come down to OU for testing. As of right now, I see neither. Unless you step up your game and prove to us that Giratina really isn't that good, nothing's going to happen.

(Suggestion: Build an OU team with Giratina on it, ask a friend to do the same, and play a few matches with it. Show us the logs of it being OU material, back it up with explanation, and we'll have a real discussion.)

 

[Thorhammer]

The Evasion Clause was only for moves which increased Evasion; if we are to add abilities and items to it, there has to be an explanation, you can't just say "it belongs to the Clause" because it never actually belonged to it.

If Garchomp is the only real abuser of it, then I can't see why we can't consider it part of Garchomp and thus, ban Garchomp as "the pokémon which has a 20% chance of evading any move in Sandstorm".

And I guess no one noticed, but Rising Dusk banned Brightpowder in every other gen because "it was banned for being a violation of Evasion Clause". I hope you guys realize that, if we were to ban Sand Veil/Snow Cloak for that same reason, Froslass would be Uber in DPPt.

The explanation is the same reason Evasion moves and items were banned under the Evasion Clause: Evasion is uncompetitive.

Garchomp is the only abuser prominent in OU. It is not the only abuser, and the problem is in no way unique to Garchomp. It is a problem with Garchomp in OU, Froslass and Mamoswine in UU, and Cacturne, Piloswine, eventually Articuno, and who knows what else in lower tiers. We should not ban those Pokemon as if they're broken, and nor should we soft-ban any of them or others by banning their abilities. All of those Pokemon must be dealt with - equally - and the only way to do that is by means of complex bans, the best of which is by banning Sand Veil + Sand Stream and Snow Cloak + Snow Warning, because those are exactly what the problem is.

 

[Ulevo]

Honestly, if people are ignorant enough to suggest Giratina is OU material and want to nominate it to come down for testing, by all means. Unlike banning a Pokemon, we don't need to be concerned as to whether or not that Pokemon will appropriately and fairly fit in to the correct tier it is designed for because people are quite content with banning things they find even the slightest bit irritating.

If Giratina did for some ridiculous reason come in to OU, it'd be very easy to vote it back to Ubers again. Not that I actually think there is any merit to doing this. The arguments proposing Giratina be tested sound as bad as the ones suggesting Ho-Oh and Lugia be tested.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

The explanation is the same reason Evasion moves and items were banned under the Evasion Clause: Evasion is uncompetitive.

Garchomp is the only abuser prominent in OU. It is not the only abuser, and the problem is in no way unique to Garchomp. It is a problem with Garchomp in OU, Froslass and Mamoswine in UU, and Cacturne, Piloswine, eventually Articuno, and who knows what else in lower tiers. We should not ban those Pokemon as if they're broken, and nor should we soft-ban any of them or others by banning their abilities. All of those Pokemon must be dealt with - equally - and the only way to do that is by means of complex bans, the best of which is by banning Sand Veil + Sand Stream and Snow Cloak + Snow Warning, because those are exactly what the problem is.

No I have a disagree, we have a, pokemon possibly broken because of sandstorm + Sand Veil. The only reason is becuase of its offensive prowess, and the only pokemon in other tiers that even come close to that are Mamoswine and Cacturn, everything is no where near broken. And even for those 2 pokemon, hail teams are still uncommon in UU, and caturn needs Hippotas to use that hax. So in other tiers we have 2 pokemon, that can sometimes use this, badly. Yep, that seems like a good reason to ban every single pokemon with that combo.

 

[Thorhammer]

No I have a disagree, we have a, pokemon possibly broken because of sandstorm + Sand Veil. The only reason is becuase of its offensive prowess, and the only pokemon in other tiers that even come close to that are Mamoswine and Cacturn, everything is no where near broken. And even for those 2 pokemon, hail teams are still uncommon in UU, and caturn needs Hippotas to use that hax. So in other tiers we have 2 pokemon, that can sometimes use this, badly. Yep, that seems like a good reason to ban every single pokemon with that combo.

It's not about brokenness. All five of the other Pokemon I listed, and likely more, can and will be a detriment to their respective metagames if the combo is allowed to remain in use, and yet none of them are broken. We need a solution, and the simple solutions we normally use are clearly not enough.