np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days

[Thorhammer]

Really? I can beat them, I never said I couldn't, but why do I have to give reasons when others don't?

But why can't you see those Pokémon banned? It's like saying: "Hey, don't ban those Pokémon, I need them for my team". Hmm? A reason for a reason, otherwise there's no point in saying something at all, right?

Everyone has to give reasons why a Pokemon should be banned. For Chansey, Victini, Kyurem, and Drought, many people have given reasons, which at least lends credence to the standpoint, even if each individual person advocating for them being banned doesn't give reasons. That said, as you seem to have also noticed, I have nevertheless been demanding reasons from each person calling for a ban of one or more of those things. I certainly wouldn't say the reasons are sufficient, either, but at least they're reasons.

Your second paragraph doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. Those Pokemon all help to diversify the metagame, and that is a reason not to ban them. Unless you give a solid reason why they are breaking the metagame, no further reason is required not to ban them, because the perspective against banning them clearly outweighs the perspective in favor of banning them.

You seem to have discarded the points you were attempting to make, but I choose to make this post anyway for the sake of helping you become aware of certain other things you seem to not be aware of, which are always relevant and are things you need to be aware of. Still, though, your reasons to ban Chansey and Drought are far too insubstantial, and lack backing in evidence for exactly what they do to be broken in the current metagame. Being broken requires something far more specific than the ideas you're tossing around.

 

[kaonohiokala]

Lol @ people wanting to ban sun sweepers but not Drought itself.

Anyways, I've played around with UU for a while and have made various teams to ladder with. From what I've seen, these are what I intend on nominating/voting to ban:

Drought, Zapdos, Raikou, Staraptor, Azelf, Kyurem, Heracross, Suicune, Gorebyss

The majority of these are fairly straight-forwards and most of the offensive mons will guarantee a kill with decent prediction. I'm open to being persuaded to other sides with valid reasons however, as I'm aware that some here have laddered more/higher than me.

 

[alphatron]

I can understand the nominations for the others, but staraptor? Sure, he was BL last gen, but I'd like to know your reasoning.

 

[SupremeDirt]

LOL

Nominating Azelf.

I'll have a full post on why I find every nomination except for Drought at this point completely silly, but right now I need to leave for school.

 

[Forsety]

Staraptor I'd assume its because of Reckless Double Edge/Brave Bird that hits for absolutely absurd ammounts of damage. I know I've been victim to one a few times when it decided to crit, nothing reasonably useful can survive it. He is actually considerably far more powerful this Gen than in Gen 4 but personally I think theres higher priorities in this round.

Zapdos I can understand, there is very few things capable of walling it or breaking it, Lanturn is probably the no.1 counter to it followed by Rotom-H. But at the same time most of its utility comes from the fact paired up with Chansey or Suicune its a near zero risk stalling combination. I think if it wasn't so easy to simply run off to your Suicune/Chansey then Zapdos would actually be far more dealable with. So to be honest I feel every vote for Zapdos should actually translate to a vote for Chansey personally.

 

[black_cotton]

Zapdos I can understand, there is very few things capable of walling it or breaking it, Lanturn is probably the no.1 counter to it followed by Rotom-H. But at the same time most of its utility comes from the fact paired up with Chansey or Suicune its a near zero risk stalling combination. I think if it wasn't so easy to simply run off to your Suicune/Chansey then Zapdos would actually be far more dealable with. So to be honest I feel every vote for Zapdos should actually translate to a vote for Chansey personally.

To be somewhat a good wall zapdos need to be heavy invested in hp and one of the defenses, i 've found that this spread is pretty much set-up bait to 252 speed Deoxys-D.

I personally always set up spikes on zapdos after taunting, so he can't roost or the rare roar variant, while i slowly wear him down with ice beam, and not let him recover. Of course is a big stallfest, since we both do something like 36%~ to each other but the lack of recover usually means that Deoxys-D wins.

 

[Darusare]

honestly azelf was a waste as a lead last gen
he was an amazing special attacker
even tran and tar had to be scared of HP fighting
but blissey was a complete wall

 

[Gerard]

Azelf can easily sweep a team after a NP and outseed a big part of UU, and i'm not saying is broken NOW, but just because he can be easily outspeeded by chlorophyll users, but when drought is gone he might become a problem (just like blazike became broken when Drizzle+SS was banned), so i will leave it for next Suspect test

and for those advocating Drought+Chlorophyll that's just a horrible idea, Drizzle is great for a fire ressistance and Rain stall exists, water type pokes have way better types and type combinations, different rain styles exist, there's Dry skin and many other abilities and types that benefit for both, the fire "ressistance" and the other benefits for rain, the only good thing coming from Drought is fire types being overpowered (something sand nor hail does to any type), the only reason we have drought dominating is that it's a drizzle free tier and the starters are way worst so you can kill them easily from a sun team (Rain is way better and diverse than Sun since the only benefit would be Solarbeam and fire types dominating, since rock and ground types are way better in sandstorm)

 

[kaonohiokala]

I can understand the nominations for the others, but staraptor? Sure, he was BL last gen, but I'd like to know your reasoning.

When I first ran into Staraptor, I had assumed it was CB'd, because it was hitting so hard (OHKOing nearly any mon that doesn't resist its STABs or is of a defensive build). However, I then learned that most Staraptors are SCARFed and with the ability Reckless. With a 120 BP Fighting attack (Close Combat) for coverage, it can either hit everything with a 120 BP Reckless-boosted STAB or hit for a super-effective Close Combat. Scarf-variants hit very hard and Band-variants hit even harder. In order to revenge it with an offensive mon, you either need to outspeed it (the seemingly more common Scarf-variant) or carry Ice Shard.

 

[what123]

This is what I will thinkm happen if victini is banned.

-Sun teams will lose their primary sweeper, but I still think it will derfone the UU metagame. Houndoom, charzard, and Venesaur are all pretty beast.
-Speaking of houndoom as a check to band victini (or specs, i don't know if v create is physical) his usuage might drop once victini is banned.
-Kyurem could see another increase(oh god, #1) with a neutral attacking threat gone.
-Pokemon like heracross and Bisharp will rise in usuage, and then fighting and ghost types like spiritomb might rise again, ass the ban wouldn't do much.

Personally, I don't care if Victini is banned, I won't play UU until suspect testing is over for it. But so far i'm excited!

 

[Delta 2777]

Either I'm really good, the entire ladder is really bad, or the combination of Hail and Kyurem is broken. Or maybe Kyurem is broken on its own, I wouldn't really know since my team happens to have several good checks against it. Regardless, I don't think I should be able to get to #1 with a Hail team (at one point Panamaxis and I were #1 and #2 respectively, and we both used Hail), so I'd like to hear more opinions on that. Drought and Sand are both also very annoying to play against. What I'm trying to say here is that weather is extremely dominant on the ladder, and either the players need to change or something needs to be banned.

Also Baton Pass is broken. Agility/Nasty Plot/Taunt/Baton Pass Mew behind screens is virtually unbeatable without highly specialized counters, unless you have something like a Dragon Tail user. Baton Pass Smeargle, Venomoth, and Gorebyss are all also a huge pain in the ass to deal with.

All of the above is just an opinion.

 

[Conflict]

Either I'm really good, the entire ladder is really bad

^This basically. I had like 4 challenging matches (Stallion, SDS, you and someone idk).

As you point out weather (mostly Sun+Hail) and Baton Pass is pretty strong. I dont know if i would call it broken though....

I think we should use baby steps in these early stages of UU to get slowly to an balanced metagame (i.e. ban victini first, then look for other stuff that is banworthy).

 

[Gerard]

Kyurem is broken, with or without hail (altough 100 acc blizzard doesn't hurt), magic coat kills that set since he will struggle (and he doesn't have recovery so you can set-up and kill him

PS: i would say, we should ban the obviously broken stuff (drought/victini and kyurem) and then let see how the meta develops, and if stuff like mew, azelf or even chansey are broken here

 

[breh]

The only bans that NEED to happen are Kyurem, Drought, and Victini. Everything else will wait against next round, preferably. The less hasty bans we make, the better.

 

[Benlisted]

The only bans that NEED to happen are Kyurem, Drought, and Victini. Everything else will wait against next round, preferably. The less hasty bans we make, the better.

Surely banning two things that are very much impacting on each other's brokenness (victini and Drought) at the same time is a bad idea? It's somewhat like banning Manaphy and Drizzle at the same time, which almost occured in phase 2 of OU.

With Sun effectively gone Victini may end up not broken, and with Victini gone the rest of Sun may be manageable, banning both at the same time seems like a bad idea. Not to say either are/aren't broken, just want to point this out.

 

[Gerard]

... if we see in a victini-less drought (PO) then Drought should be banned, and see if victini is broken even in sand

 

[Raikaria]

Victini's issue is the Base 180 STAB coming off a Base 100 attack.

With or without Sun, that is still VERY painful. Trick Room Victini is still likly to be broken.

Of course, I'm running sun, so seeing the impact of Victini without Sun is a little hard. However, it hits hard enough to 2HKO a Bulky Altaria, and Cloud Nine reoves the Sun bonus.

Drought however, I can comment on the brokeness of. My team uses Drought, and dosen't use Victini, and the the only times I lose are:
1: Very bad luck. As in things like a CritPara Thunderbolt, numerous times.
2: Other Drought Teams

I don't even use Victini... however, Sawsbuck tends to be an issue for my team, outspeeding it all, and stopping Victreebel. That's where most my losses come from.

 

[Virizion]

Victini's issue is the Base 180 STAB coming off a Base 100 attack.

With or without Sun, that is still VERY painful. Trick Room Victini is still likly to be broken.

Of course, I'm running sun, so seeing the impact of Victini without Sun is a little hard. However, it hits hard enough to 2HKO a Bulky Altaria, and Cloud Nine reoves the Sun bonus.

Drought however, I can comment on the brokeness of. My team uses Drought, and dosen't use Victini, and the the only times I lose are:
1: Very bad luck. As in things like a CritPara Thunderbolt, numerous times.
2: Other Drought Teams

I don't even use Victini... however, Sawsbuck tends to be an issue for my team, outspeeding it all, and stopping Victreebel. That's where most my losses come from.

I fought a Drought team earlier, and I used a simple Kyurem spread of 60HP/196SpA/252Spe (Timid nature), and an unboosted Sawsbuck's Jump Kick did maybe ~210 HP damage (A little over half my health) as I HP-Fire'd it for an OHKO. If you don't want to rely on fighting an unboosted one, I'd suggest Cresselia. Moonlight heals 66% HP and HP-Fire is boosted (Mine ran both). Unfortunately, chances are, the opposing team has a Shiftry - I did maybe 70% to it with HP-Fire after it NP'ed, then it OHKO'd Cress with Dark Pulse and did ~480 damage to my 704 (max) HP Eviolite Chansey with Focus Blast.

I was using a "Clear Skies" team, and their Sun sweepers were frightening but manageable - Drought isn't broken IMO.

For those curious about the battle - the Battle Video number is 40-65423-85635. I didn't carry Victini (though I do have an EV'ed one, I just forgot about it) and neither did she, but I imagine if she had used it I would've lost. However, I'm hoping this battle somehow shows that Drought doesn't always win against non-weather teams.

Tl;dr for my whole post: Sun isn't broken, Victini probably is, and Vulpix is lolfail if you have a beautiful Moxie Honchkrow with Pursuit.

 

[Gerard]

Just for the people saying victini is what's broken, i ask you, does a 270 BP attack seems broken, or a 405 BP one? if if't the first one then, Flare Bitz on the sun = 270 BP fire attack, so even if you ban victini, any good fire type has a just-as-good move on the sun, and if it's the latter, then what does makes the v-create a so much killer attack (sun), many grass types get a shell smash in the sun (growth and chloropyll) and fire types remove their water weekness removed and teir attacks get double STAB, Victini is just the best fire type, banning him just because he is broken in the sun is like banning manaphy or kingdra on rain, yeah, they are the best, but if they go many more would pop out

 

[Benlisted]

Just for the people saying victini is what's broken, i ask you, does a 270 BP attack seems broken, or a 405 BP one? if if't the first one then, Flare Bitz on the sun = 270 BP fire attack, so even if you ban victini, any good fire type has a just-as-good move on the sun, and if it's the latter, then what does makes the v-create a so much killer attack (sun), many grass types get a shell smash in the sun (growth and chloropyll) and fire types remove their water weekness removed and teir attacks get double STAB, Victini is just the best fire type, banning him just because he is broken in the sun is like banning manaphy or kingdra on rain, yeah, they are the best, but if they go many more would pop out

If what's broken is the 400+ attack then that means that the broken thing is Victini in Sun, not anything else. And then the choice comes as to whether to remove one pokemon or a whole playstyle, which imo is an obvious question.

I'm not trying to say anything at all about Sun in general, merely point out that if we're talking about Victini alone being broken in Sun then he should go, not Sun. If Sun's other merits push it over the edge then fair play, there's a (seperate) case for banning Sun, but purely in regards to Victini there is simply not much case, and that was the point I was making.

With regards to Sun, even if a few more mons are broken - like say Sawsbuck, Victreebel and Shiftry, then clausing them out as we did with SwSw in OU (or banning them outright as they prove broken in one condition) still seems a better alternative to completely killing a playstyle imo.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

This may seem like a double standard from me but UU is a different meta. Sun is brokne, there are very few that would argue against that. Ban Vulpix, no more Sun. Hail is broken, there are a few more that would argue that but still not many. With Sun gone, Hail loses a check, Hail is broken, ban Abomasnow and perhaps Snover. With Eviolite Hippopotas is bulky as fuck and Sand is still very powerful. It might not be broken now but eventually it will. Ban it.

Thats my prediction on the future state of weather in the tier, one I happen to agree with. I still dont think Kyurem is broken, although I think it is certainly the best pokemon in the tier that isnt. Victini...is fucking broken without Sun. VG-Create is obscenely powerful outside of Sun, Scarf remedies any speed issues, it can go mixed like and it still has 100 defenses giving very respectable bulk, even with its weaknesses.

Dicuss the previous statements.

 

[Benlisted]

This may seem like a double standard from me but UU is a different meta. Sun is brokne, there are very few that would argue against that. Ban Vulpix, no more Sun. Hail is broken, there are a few more that would argue that but still not many. With Sun gone, Hail loses a check, Hail is broken, ban Abomasnow and perhaps Snover. With Eviolite Hippopotas is bulky as fuck and Sand is still very powerful. It might not be broken now but eventually it will. Ban it.

Thats my prediction on the future state of weather in the tier, one I happen to agree with. I still dont think Kyurem is broken, although I think it is certainly the best pokemon in the tier that isnt. Victini...is fucking broken without Sun. VG-Create is obscenely powerful outside of Sun, Scarf remedies any speed issues, it can go mixed like and it still has 100 defenses giving very respectable bulk, even with its weaknesses.

Dicuss the previous statements.

Fair enough that people will want different things from this meta than OU, but purely based on precedent from OU, it seems to me that we should try sun without Victini and possibly some other abusers too in the same vein as we did with Drizzle without SwSw, which from the last vote on Drizzle seems to have solved the issue.

Admittedly I don't see myself getting much support, and am not as passionate about this issue since I really don't like running Sun in UU since Vulpix is so damn useless (and SS is awesome), but that's just how I see it.

Victini I agree entirely on, I think it needs to go regardless of what happens to Sun, even in SS it demolishes. Kyurem I think is perhaps somewhat similar to Reuniclus with regards to being able to take two roles - defensive phazer/staller, and offensive powerhouse very well, to the degree of brokenness. But both do have their counters, and his SR weak doesn't help, so I'm on the fence really.

 

[Gerard]

Outside of sun victini is as powerful as inside-the-sun fire types, this means that every argument to ban victini can easily aply to fire types on the sun, then you have the chloropyll sweepers, which are perfectly fine without permanet sun, i'm completely opposed to complex bans and doing a chlorophyll + Drough or fire type + Drought ban is just stupid if we can ban vulpix and end drought right off the bat, again, what drought styles exist? other than balanced and offense (which are practicaly the same and both relly on chlorophyll)

On regard of other weather, sand and hail were UU last gen, and none of them were broken, even more, nothing has changed that gave them an incredible amount of power, the terrier is the only new sand sweeper, and no good ice pokes (or pokes that benefit from it other than te fragile sand cloack users), the most i can think of is weavile that is just inmune to it and doesn't benefit from even the 100 acc blizzard

Kyurem can have a lot of sets, the scarfed and specs set's are powerfull right from the start, and the Claw Sharpen set is bulky and can phaze eerything that doesn't have a substitute (and more likely loose health because of hail so they can stay a lot), the Life orb set that can change attacks

 

[PttP]

you say hail didnt get any new weapons and then in the next paragraph you say kyurem is very strong

you seem like a confused user

 

[Gerard]

I meant after Kyurem is banned, just like i said the brokenness of drought even with no victini (and Kyurem is not an abuser, he only uses blizzard)