np: UU Suspect Test Round 1 - Sunny Days

[ToF]

for one, not all chansey carry a status move. certainly stall varients do not. its more likely wish/softboiled, protect/aroma, seismic toss, stealth rock. and as mop said, chansey on an offensive team is completely out of place. so its difficult for chansey to beat something like sub horn claw kyurem. as i said, its a sitting duck for all pokemon that can do something to it. and last i checked, pokemon was never a "sacrifice 1-for-1" game. its a game of strategy. so what if you can't ohko chansey, there's plenty of ways to beat it. lets go through a list:

toxic spikes - extremely common right now given nidoqueens versatility in the metagame

np + psychoshock - does a shit-ton of damage to eviolite chansey

spikes and sr prone - makes it so much easier to constantly wear it down

TAUNT- completely shuts it down 100%, just like JELLICENT SHUTS DOWN BLISSEY IN OU

any physical set-up sweeper- chansey is slow as shit, just bring in the right pokemon on it and bam you win. ex) HERACROSS

any resttalk + CM endmon - crocune, for example, will either win with pressure or just crit the fucking blob at +6. the odds are with you in this case, which is what i'll bank on

quite frankly, if you're running an offensive team that can't take down the most common walls in the metagame, you're doing something wrong. everything from dusclops to fucking lampent gained quite a bit of staying power because of eviolite. dusclops is equally as hard to take down, is it broken? you guys seem like you're just whining about not being able to kill something in one hit. well, dusclops isnt dying in one hit, neither is slowbro to physical attacks. its why they're called walls, they do what their name implies lol. no wall is indestructible. if you can't beat a common team of walls with a full-fledged offensive team, you need to restructure your team, simple as that.

 

[jamashawalker]

toxic spikes - extremely common right now given nidoqueens versatility in the metagametoxic spikes is just as easy to get off the field as it is to get on...haha but we'll just be back and forth on that subject

np + psychoshock - does a shit-ton of damage to eviolite chanseyas of now azelf and mew are the only two threats that utilize this combo..and chansey has no business dealing with any type of mew

spikes and sr prone - makes it so much easier to constantly wear it downvery true

TAUNT- completely shuts it down 100%, just like JELLICENT SHUTS DOWN BLISSEY IN OUyour getting one shot at this and then the next time no chansey is just gonna allow you to taunt so easily

any physical set-up sweeper- chansey is slow as shit, just bring in the right pokemon on it and bam you win. ex) HERACROSSand risk being t-waved

any resttalk + CM endmon - crocune, for example, will either win with pressure or just crit the fucking blob at +6. the odds are with you in this case, which is what i'll bank onthis strategy will work if chansey is the last poke or if your opponent has no way of dealing with a crocune like set..lol no chansey user is dumb enough to just let you just set up right in front of its face

quite frankly, if you're running an offensive team that can't take down the most common walls in the metagame, you're doing something wrong. everything from dusclops to fucking lampent gained quite a bit of staying power because of eviolite. dusclops is equally as hard to take down, is it broken? you guys seem like you're just whining about not being able to kill something in one hit. well, dusclops isnt dying in one hit, neither is slowbro to physical attacks. its why they're called walls, they do what their name implies lol. no wall is indestructible. if you can't beat a common team of walls with a full-fledged offensive team, you need to restructure your team, simple as that.

no one is really saying that they cant OHKO chansey, unless they brought up the Close Combat arguement, which again isnt to say that they are annoyed by that, but to provide an example of chansey's bulkiness..One thing completely different about chansey than every other wall is natural cure and a TWO really good recovery moves and right now chansey's bulky allows her to not only support really well but also take both physical and special attacks..

 

[ToF]

no one is really saying that they cant OHKO chansey, unless they brought up the Close Combat arguement, which again isnt to say that they are annoyed by that, but to provide an example of chansey's bulkiness..One thing completely different about chansey than every other wall is natural cure and a TWO really good recovery moves and right now chansey's bulky allows her to not only support really well but also take both physical and special attacks..

you forgot espeon in the list of pokemon that also use np + psychoshock, but that also reminded me that any of these new magic mirror pokemon (espeon and xatu) equally fuck chansey up the ass, especially xatu since it has roost.

as for your taunt argument, you can't avoid taunt. chansey is getting taunted by everything, and if you dont bring in chansey, thats a good thing right, since its so broken and alll? you want to keep it out of play as long as possible then right?

for your heracross thunder-wave thing, again most don't carry thunderwave, and this is not pure speculation, it will be proven as fact once the usage stats come out. toxic and sr take up that last slot, never twave.

crocune is difficult to kill on its own, its not like you will automatically have something to kill it, and more often than not, when everything fails to kill it, you're gonna go to chansey to try and stall it out (which obviously will fail).

also, you completely ignored the parallels i made to dusclops. nothing is ko'ing dusclops with eviolite, what makes chansey so different. and at least dusclops is more VERSATILE than chansey, you know EXACTLY what you're getting with chansey every single battle.

 

[Byrn Dragonstone]

A List of Pokemon that flat out 2HKO or OHKO Chansey.

Absol
Aggron
Arcanine
Armaldo
Azumarill
Electivire
Entei
Feraligator
Flygon
Gallade
Granbull
Hariyama
Heracross
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Honchkrow
Kangaskhan
Kingler
Krabby
Luxray
Machoke
Machop
Mamoswine
Mankey
Medicham
Muk
Nidoking
Pinsir
Poliwrath
Primeape
Rampardos
Rhyperior
Slaking
Staraptor
Torterra
Ursaring
Zangoose

And those are just the Physical ones. That isn't counting the things that can set up and 2HKO at +1, or any 5th Gen mons. And this is on a 252/252/4 Bold EV spread on Chansey to give it the most physical bulk possible. And none of those 2HKO's are with SR on the field. I hardly see a pokemon that takes passive damage over time, with no leftovers to help negate them, as threatening. Not to mention some of the pokemon that can 2HKO are.... less then threatening. Mankey, Machop, even Krabby for goodness sake can 2HKO the most Defensive Chansey around. Hardly a threatening appearance if you ask me.

Chansey does provide a hard stop to most special threats though, (Bar Specs SolarZard, which 2HKO's handily). But that is all it can do, wall Special threats. Hardly this god-like wall that everyone on here is moaning about.

 

[shrang]

any resttalk + CM endmon - crocune, for example, will either win with pressure or just crit the fucking blob at +6. the odds are with you in this case, which is what i'll bank on

Why do we keep forgetting Snatch Chansey? She can steal your Calm Minds, and even if she can't use them to attack, her Special Defense will be boosted, rendering your SpA boosts useless, which means a crit is pretty much the only way you're going to be able to take her out. She can also just use Toxic on your Crocune, then use Snatch to steal your Rest, which means you'll die pretty helplessly. Personally, I don't MIND Chansey, but the things it can do are pretty damn ridiculous.

 

[LonelyNess]

I can't tell if you're serious or not with the "Mankey and Machop can 2HKO it how is this threatening"...

Specs Unown can 2HKO Groudon with HP Ice does that mean that Groudon is not threatening?

Let's try and not inflate our lists with obvious shit just so they look bigger than they actually are...

Also unless you're looking to use a Choice Band on the majority of those Pokemon, you're going to be hard pressed to actually get the 2HKOs you're advertising.

 

[Aeroblacktyl]

Considering most of those Pokes have Super Power/Close Combat or really ridiculous Attack+high power STAB move, you don't need any CB to 2hko Chansey.

Example:

339 attack vs 178 defense, 120 power(*2), 704 max HP: 46.59% - 54.83%

Or...

379 attack vs 178 defense, 100 power(*1.5 *1.3), 704 max HP: 42.33% - 49.86%

And that's just no item/boost Staraptor and LO Rhyperior. Others have STAB or can also use Life Orb to guarantee the 2HKO with or without SR.

Also if you Snatch a Rest, then you're going to probably be put to sleep, meaning they can just...Rest the next turn?

 

[Byrn Dragonstone]

I can't tell if you're serious or not with the "Mankey and Machop can 2HKO it how is this threatening"...

Specs Unown can 2HKO Groudon with HP Ice does that mean that Groudon is not threatening?

Let's try and not inflate our lists with obvious shit just so they look bigger than they actually are...

Also unless you're looking to use a Choice Band on the majority of those Pokemon, you're going to be hard pressed to actually get the 2HKOs you're advertising.

I actually tried to keep from using a Choice Band in the Calcs just for that reason alone. Scarfed Mankey/Unboosted Guts Machop, even Life Orb Krabby 2HKO's Chansey. A Choice Scarf Krabby does 46.6% - 54.8%. That is a 2hko with Rocks up. A 2HKO from a NFE, unboosted, non-STAB attack VS what people are claiming is a pokemon that walls the entire Metagame. Apparently it doesn't.

And if you try and pull out that every special attacker is walled well then you haven't faced a NP Azelf/Mew with Psyshock. Or Solar SpecZard (Timid:48.2% - 56.7%, Modest:53% - 62.4%).

And Specs Unknown can NOT 2HKO Groudon. It barely scrapes a 3HKO out of it...

Sure Chansey can wall some things, but any passive damage (Entry Hazards/Hail/Sandstorm/Stray Attacks) and it becomes rather useless. Bottom line against Chansey, don't use special attacks.

 

[RaikouLover]

Sun is fun. However, I'm not convinced its broken... I'm more convinced that Chlorophyll mons with Sleep Powder are... its fun sweeping every match with Growth + Sleep Powder Victrebell. But anyway, I do like Sun simply because I'ts making beating stall easier, which seems to be all the rage

 

[Whimsicott]

A List of Pokemon that flat out 2HKO or OHKO Chansey.

Absol
Aggron
Arcanine
Armaldo
Azumarill
Electivire
Entei
Feraligator
Flygon
Gallade
Granbull
Hariyama
Heracross
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Honchkrow
Kangaskhan
Kingler
Krabby
Luxray
Machoke
Machop
Mamoswine
Mankey
Medicham
Muk
Nidoking
Pinsir
Poliwrath
Primeape
Rampardos
Rhyperior
Slaking
Staraptor
Torterra
Ursaring
Zangoose

The bolded pokemon cannot 2HKO Chansey with Eviolite.

 

[Darusare]

Overcentralization is a dumb thing someone invented who didnt grasp the whole aspect of competitive Pokemon. SD-Lucarios in OU right now use Ice Punch to specifically deal with Gliscor, Landorus, Virizion and sometimes even Terrakion and Excadrill (lol) are using HP[Ice] just to deal with Gliscor. When everyone packs something to defeat Gliscor than he must be a overcentralizing force, right? He must be broken, right? He isnt and the metagame is perfectly fine with him. Apply the same logic to Chansey.

Overcentralization is a stupid term and shouldnt be used for tiering purposes.

You deal with Chansey as you would deal with any Sweeper/Wall/w.e. - you prepare for it.

Ps: Dugtrio removes Chansey easily with the right moveset if you are that worried about her.

running hidden power ice isnt nessicarily to deal with gliscor
garchomp is also a pretty big factor in that too

 

[FlareBlitz]

A List of Pokemon that flat out 2HKO or OHKO Chansey.

[Inaccurate list of pokemon]

And those are just the Physical ones. That isn't counting the things that can set up and 2HKO at +1, or any 5th Gen mons. And this is on a 252/252/4 Bold EV spread on Chansey to give it the most physical bulk possible. And none of those 2HKO's are with SR on the field. I hardly see a pokemon that takes passive damage over time, with no leftovers to help negate them, as threatening. Not to mention some of the pokemon that can 2HKO are.... less then threatening. Mankey, Machop, even Krabby for goodness sake can 2HKO the most Defensive Chansey around. Hardly a threatening appearance if you ask me.

Chansey does provide a hard stop to most special threats though, (Bar Specs SolarZard, which 2HKO's handily). But that is all it can do, wall Special threats. Hardly this god-like wall that everyone on here is moaning about.

First, thanks for your attempt to formulate a good argument! Unfortunately, it was this kind of argument that I referenced a few pages back as being unproductive when it comes to the Defensive characteristic:

This is why dealing with Defensive suspects in the same way that we deal with Offensive suspects is fallacious. With an offensive suspect, it makes sense to say "okay, commonly-used pokemon x y and z safely switch into this suspect therefore it's not broken". With a defensive suspect, it doesn't matter that there are Pokemon who are capable of beating it; what matters is whether the suspect itself is capable of switching into a "significant portion" of the metagame with relative impunity and then switching out again after accomplishing something significant (status, spike damage, wish passing, etc). Otherwise, we could drop literally any Pokemon into this tier and have it not meet the Defensive characteristic based on the arguments you guys are posting: "Oh, Giratina-A? 2hko'd by CB Absol, weak to tspikes, can be set up on by Guts fighting types, clearly not broken". Come on.

To illustrate my point:

Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor v Giratina-A: 93% - 109.7%
Houndoom +2 Dark Pulse v Giratina-A: 96.6% - 113.7%
Honchkrow's LO Night Slash v Giratina-A: 40.6% - 47.7%
Mismagius' +2 Shadow Ball v Giratina-A: 75.5% - 89.5%

So Giratina-A is clearly not broken in UU, right? You could argue that most of these cannot switch into Giratina-A (Houndoom can) but then you're looking at the same deal if you switch Primeape into Chansey and eat a Thunder wave.

I think you get the point. Nothing walls the entire metagame, and if we make that our standard for the Defensive characteristic we will never ban anything that deserves to be banned.

There was another point made comparing Chansey to Dusclops. I'll illustrate why this is fallacious with a couple of calcs:

Specs Kyurem's Draco Meteor v. 252/0 Dusclops: 70.8% - 83.5%
Specs Kyurem's Draco Meteor v. 252/0 Chansey: 34.2% - 40.5%

+1 Kingdra's Outrage v. 252/252 Dusclops: 37% - 43.7%
+1 Kingdra's Outrage v. 252/252 Chansey: 48.7% - 57.5%

Dusclops is around 30% better at walling physical hits than Chansey, whereas Chansey is about 105% better at walling special hits. Dusclops also lacks Nature Cure, any form of instant recovery, Wish for team support, Aromatherapy for team support, Stealth Rock, and has two very common weaknesses (as opposed to Chansey's 1 common weakness). Its ability to serve as a spinblocker does not make up for this. So no, they're not comparable walls at all. There was another comparison involving Slowbro but the calcs play out worse for the 'Bro, it's a little worse than Dusclops at taking physical hits and far, far worse at taking special ones.

There simply is not any wall in UU that is capable of matching Chansey's mixed walling abilities, and I don't even think there is any tier (respective to that tier's power).

 

[Blue_Tornado]

are we seriously debating about chansey?

there are so many usable counters to the, sigh, one and only chansey set it's not even funny. most successful teams have a very easy way of dealing with them else they wouldn't be a successful team to begin with. flat-out 'go to' mons to chansey range from pure offensive pokemon, to pure defensive pokemon and then to stuff like crobat-- in fact, most of its stops are more defensive pokemon so i do not see anything coming out of this "let's find all the offensive pokemon that 2ko it and see how it turns out" shit.

there are many pokemon to be discussed. chansey isn't one of them.

 

[BurningMan]

Please don't spread blatant BS without the evidence to back it up.
According to you Mamoswine can 2HKO Chansey, but Rhyperior which has 10 more base attack can't? Yeah ok.
There is so much wrong in that list but I'm not going to bother with more examples since they're obvious.

both can't they could with 2 super powers if it wasn't for the attack drop wich means they can be stalled out with Softboiled.

Oh and that means a 140 base attack pokemon can't 2HKO with full ev investment + adamant and a 100 BP Stab so talk about chansey being physically frail.


I am very split about Chansey on the one side it IS handable, however its very hard to switch in, because there is always the threat of being either paralysed or poisened this alone wouldn't make it bad since a lot of pokemon get that combination. However Chansey can take almost every hit and switch into almost every pokemon and starting to wall it so it often forces a switch and outside of pokemon with rest nothing likes status. Its not that Chansey fucks up whole teams (outside of poor build ones), but it can severly cripple Teams whit toxic and T-Wave that allow other members of the team to outspeed your paralysed sweeper or KO your Poisen weakend walls.
Sure there are ways around, but for almost every other Pokemon Chansey is a nightmare.

 

[RaikouLover]

You guys are fucking kidding me. Chansey isn't going anywhere its more of a liability than bannable. There are legit reasons for banning other defensive pokemon, like Deoxys-D was banned because defenses, movepool, AND hazards. Lugia for walling / phazing / sweeping an entire portion of the proposed metagame, etc. Chansey just sits on her fatass and can't attack or do anything productive. Granted she can be useful, but i dont see her as banworthy at all

 

[ToF]

Why do we keep forgetting Snatch Chansey? She can steal your Calm Minds, and even if she can't use them to attack, her Special Defense will be boosted, rendering your SpA boosts useless, which means a crit is pretty much the only way you're going to be able to take her out. She can also just use Toxic on your Crocune, then use Snatch to steal your Rest, which means you'll die pretty helplessly. Personally, I don't MIND Chansey, but the things it can do are pretty damn ridiculous.

maybe everyone forgets about this because NO ONE USES SNATCH CHANSEY. jeez you can theorymon all you want, at least back it up with usage statistics. chansey is the single most predictable pokemon in the entire game, maybe other than magikarp because it only gets like 4 moves anyway. you're always gonna see wish/protect or softboiled/aroma, and either stoss and status move or stoss and stealth rock. when is snatch ever used? NEVER.

if you're gonna argue against it on pure speculation then you're just hurting your argument more than helping it.

 

[kaonohiokala]

You guys are fucking kidding me. Chansey isn't going anywhere its more of a liability than bannable. There are legit reasons for banning other defensive pokemon, like Deoxys-D was banned because defenses, movepool, AND hazards. Lugia for walling / phazing / sweeping an entire portion of the proposed metagame, etc. Chansey just sits on her fatass and can't attack or do anything productive. Granted she can be useful, but i dont see her as banworthy at all

With proper support (Toxic/Toxic Spikes/Burn), Chansey can wall and stall forever. Jolly Max Attack Scarf Heracross can't OHKO standard Chansey with Close Combat, Adamant Max Attack Scarf Heracross can't OHKO more physically defensive variants of Chansey or guarantee an OHKO on Chansey. My SubNP Mismagius got to +6 Sp Atk and still couldn't do enough damage with HP-Fighting to KO Chansey (averaged about 50% damage) before succumbing to burn damage. Paired with Eviolite Dusclops, Chansey&Dusclops make a solid defensive core (yep, just the two of them), given that you have Burn/Toxic support to handle ghosts (or a third member of the core that's a sure check for said ghosts).

 

[RaikouLover]

No, those two are a start, but there is a large amount of things that beat them. Your Mismagius for example, beats them handily I don't know how you managed to get it burned.

 

[toshimelonhead]

Mismagius has a tough time switching into Chansey or Clops though. I found that Deoxys-D is much more formidable than either of them since it can set up both hazards and can safeguard Chansey/Clops with a large support movepool. Any chance Deo-D goes?

 

[kaonohiokala]

No, those two are a start, but there is a large amount of things that beat them. Your Mismagius for example, beats them handily I don't know how you managed to get it burned.

The point is that Chansey is broken when used properly. It's quite obvious that it can't do much by itself, but anyone who knows how to build a decent team can find a way to utilize Chansey to its maximum potential.
Btw, when you're in mid- to late-game and have nothing else to take a burn, a special attacker like Mismagius would be the primary candidate. Though, I'll keep in mind that Mismagius needs to be burn-free to beat Chansey from now on.

 

[PttP]

if you saw chansey on their team and knew you were going to take a burn and you switched to mismagius anyway, that isnt chansey being broken. thats just you being a dumbass player

 

[Gerard]

OK, iguess the chansey talk will go on...

I've found that roserade is a great way to counter chansey, you swich in in a poison inmunity or being paralized (that's really all you need since thanks to Natural Cure you now know what status she carries, then you use her as set-up fodder for whatever is inmune to her status (and prerefably high HP or ghost type) this works with pretty much any natural cure poke, but i prefer Roserade since i can set toxic spikes an sleep whatever comes (and i can use rest and swich)

PS: offensive teams use T-wave on Chansey, that and wishes make everything easier to handle 100% of the time

PSS: Miss cannot reliably swich without being possibly statused, with Pains Split she will likely never die AGAINST CHANSEY, if she swiches into something that can actually hit back (or just roar her like crocune) she is in a very bad place (a great chansey killer pains split + CM missy after a burn or other not so treathening status)

 

[FlareBlitz]

Chansey just sits on her fatass and can't attack or do anything productive.

You're thinking of Cresselia. If you think Chansey does nothing productive, feel free to let her just sit there while she heals her entire team with 300+ HP wishes and aromatherapies.

I feel like I've exhausted my capacity to contribute to this particular discussion given what I've already posted, so I'm just going to link to my most relevant posts on the blob for anyone new to read. Hopefully they address any concerns along the "chansey isn't broken" line.

Moving on, some of my thoughts about the rest of the suspects and the metagame in general:

Sun: I'm starting off with this because it's the suspect I am most divided on. I have played against sun and played using sun myself, and the results are...disconcerting. See, my problem with sun is that it's so bloody inconsistent. When I used sun, I wasn't actually as successful as I was with a normal team (my normal team peaked at around 1370, my sun team peaked at around 1280); whether or not I won was predicated almost entirely on the kind of team my opponent had. And I don't mean whether they had a good team or a bad team (you could argue that being weak to sun automatically makes for a bad team, but that's a dumb argument), but whether they had a team with certain very specific Pokemon or not. Similarly, my most successful team is pretty bad against sun, but my second most successful team basically treats them as free wins. This is again due to the Pokemon involve - my second team has a swasbuck and an escavalier on it, while the first team consists of other excellent Pokemon that unfortunately all take neutral damage from either grass, fire, or normal. I suppose what I'm trying to say is, sun teams cause the outcome of a match to hinge largely on what kind of teams both players have...and I'm not so sure that's a good thing. Overall though, sun simply isn't as good as a normal playstyle, at least from my perspective.

Hail: I don't think hail is broken without Kyurem, who I will be addressing momentarily. Ice is a terrible defensive typing, and the non-ice type walls on a hail team are heavily hampered by losing their leftovers - Nidoqueen in particular doesn't have any other form of recovery (besides Rest) and it is relied on heavily to take all sorts of beatings for the team. These factors conspire to make it relatively easy to remove the non-ice type walls through continuous assault until only the weakened ice-types are left. It has given me very little issue. Oh, except for Froslass' insane ability to get 3 layers of spikes against my bullet punch hitmontop, but since we can't ban Snow Cloak I'll just have to deal I guess.


Kyurem: Absolutely broken. With just 4 moves and a Life Orb or Choice Specs Kyurem is capable of ohkoing pretty much every offensive Pokemon in the entire metagame, and 2hkoing any defensive Pokemon not named Chansey. This, combined with its good speed and excellent bulk, make it extremely difficult for most teams to deal with. Its versatility is also an assert, allowing it to run sets like SubToxic, SubLO, and Mixed Hone Claws to get past Pokemon that would normally check it.


Victini: Absolutely broken, soon to be OU.
Will post general impressions a little later.

 

[Avira]

You're thinking of Cresselia. If you think Chansey does nothing productive, feel free to let her just sit there while she heals her entire team with 300+ HP wishes and aromatherapies.

CBHeracross comes in.

Chansey used Wish.

Now, you are forced to choose something that isn't OHKO'd by Hera's STAB. You cannot just send Wishes to anything that you want. There are immediately threatening attackers all over the tier, that can prevent you from passing wishes to what you want.

 

[cheeseboy]

With proper support (Toxic/Toxic Spikes/Burn), Chansey can wall and stall forever. Jolly Max Attack Scarf Heracross can't OHKO standard Chansey with Close Combat, Adamant Max Attack Scarf Heracross can't OHKO more physically defensive variants of Chansey or guarantee an OHKO on Chansey. My SubNP Mismagius got to +6 Sp Atk and still couldn't do enough damage with HP-Fighting to KO Chansey (averaged about 50% damage) before succumbing to burn damage. Paired with Eviolite Dusclops, Chansey&Dusclops make a solid defensive core (yep, just the two of them), given that you have Burn/Toxic support to handle ghosts (or a third member of the core that's a sure check for said ghosts).

This was one of the best posts yet. And thank you for mentioning the Chansey/Dusclops thing; it's like SkarmBliss, only no spikes. Oh, and btw, I just found out that Chansey can survive a +3 Raikou's Aura sphere's critical hit. I may have been the one to bring Raikou into this conversation, but I was in no way implying he is a good check or whatever; I was saying not even him, a great Special Attacker, can do crap to Chansey.