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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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i'm actually surprised i don't see more electivire running around with how much people dislike thunderous.
it doesn't care about priority thunderwave or taunt
it survives hidden power ice or focus blast.
with a little prediction, you'll have boosted speed to one shot with an ice punch.
and thunderous is hardly the only poke that won't appreciate having an electivire to face.
it doesn't care about priority thunderwave or taunt
it survives hidden power ice or focus blast.
with a little prediction, you'll have boosted speed to one shot with an ice punch.
and thunderous is hardly the only poke that won't appreciate having an electivire to face.
that's cuz electivire pretty much sucks ass otherwise and is owned by none other than, oh wait, like everything else, excadrill...
They'll be even less than useless if they get parahax the first turn. :o
Heh, you know, I've been pwning with a joke drizzle team with HydraRestWhiscash, HydraRestLapras, AgilityLanturn, SpecsToed, Ferrothorn, and ScarfWaterSpoutWailord.
And you know what? I've been winning ._.
With just the two HydraRest pokemon, I rarely lose. It's kinda surprising that a joke team can manage to surpass my main team <,<
Although I AM in a slump...
And you know what? I've been winning ._.
With just the two HydraRest pokemon, I rarely lose. It's kinda surprising that a joke team can manage to surpass my main team <,<
Although I AM in a slump...
There, Thundurus can be handled. But 2 S-Tosses? I don't see a point in keeping thundurus in on Blissey but I'm pretty sure it can get the 2HKO seeing as Hammer Arm gets 53.8% minimum and Blissey is switching in.
I know you're generalizing for the sake of your argument but Gliscor, Skarmory, and Conkeldurr don't get owned by Excadrill without a Rock Slide Flinch or an SD in Conkeldurr's case.
That sort of thing is why I think Drizzle's broken. It makes meh pokes into OU viable threats and good pokemon (Ferrothorn) amazing. But alas, the suspect voters didn't agree.
Edit: On another note, since everybody demands to have something nominated for Suspect, why don't we test Individual Swift Swimmers in OU? Since they're already nerfed we could see which swift swimmers were broken (five bucks says Kingdra/Ludicolo/and Kabutops) and see which ones aren't (Luvdisc, Floatzel, and friends). There isn't a single solid argument for why Swift Swim Floatzel is broken in this round (or any others) and we could get rid of a complex ban that affects many simply for the sake of nerfing 3.
yeah, i know lol. i do that a lot, especially when im thinking in a hurry. the point is electivire fell even more behind this gen because the power creep, and imho he requires WAAAAAAAAY too much team support for anything other than a niche pokemon.
something that can one shot ferrothorn, scizor, chansey, blissey, thunderous, and if it gets motor drive off, outspeed and take out/do significant damage to most dragons is obviously terrible because one of the more ridiculous pokemon can kill it, among others... right...
Please post the Electivire set that can do that because frankly it kinda sucks and I'm not seeing how Electivire can do all that and somehow you're the only one that's noticed. And tell me how it's supposed to get motor drive activated from a dragon. What dragon commonly carries electric attacks and what player uses it on E-Vire?
I agree with Nkululeko!
It is finally time to test every SS user in rain to see which of them are actually broken...
Kingdra of 'course and maybe even Ludicolo and Kabutops can be instantly banned since we all know their performance in ou in conjuction with drizzle(i am on the fence about the latter 2 but i just mention them for the sake of simplicity).
i admit most dragons do not throw electric attacks, but it can still get that boost from something else.
Cross Chop
Ice Punch
Flamethrower
Wild Charge
don't have damage calcs, and i don't save logs, but i've used electivire to do the things i'd mentioned.
I fought a set identical to the above Electivire, and one-shotted it with my ScarfLatios. Even if Latios fell, there is another scarfer on my team, who could also one-shot it. It simply doesn't pack enough power, or have enough speed to really be used as anything other than a utility counter for a relatively few number of Pokemon to be use viably in OU.
@ Bob Monkey 07
Please don't try to argue that Electivire is good.It's shit.
EDIT: Electivire can one shot Chansey ? LOL . It barely 2HKO's.
Adamant Max Attack Electivire ( 379 Attk) vs. Bold 252/252 Eviolite Chansey ( 178 Def ) does 43.6% - 51.4%
Please don't try to argue that Electivire is good.It's shit.
EDIT: Electivire can one shot Chansey ? LOL . It barely 2HKO's.
Adamant Max Attack Electivire ( 379 Attk) vs. Bold 252/252 Eviolite Chansey ( 178 Def ) does 43.6% - 51.4%
Meh... Evire aint the end all to beat all... but he does rape shit on a rain team... the guy who said evire sucks.... its b/c most people havent put the time in to use him correctly... and he loves coming into thunerus as the other guy said... I use this:
Lyvewyre @ Expert Belt
Mild Nature
Motordrive
252 SpAtt, 40 Att, 216 Spd
Thunder
Crosschop
Flamethrower
Hp Ice/Hp Grass
Honestly this is nothing but the mixed attacker set on the strategydex, but replacing thunderbolt with thunder. This thing actually hits hard although it is not going to sweep unless its late game and everything is weakened... It can work as a decent attacking lead (esspecially great when you see politoed or thunderus or ferrothorn in team preview), and just makes ferro think twice about doing anything... even in the rain flamethrower 2hkos all ferros. Hp Ice is easily the best bet, but i have found the hp gass still keeps certain pokes from forcing you out. Thunder hits very hard even though his highest stat is attack, and isnt effected by intimidate. On my rain team, he has suck great synergy and finds alot of opportunies to switch in. Even against the sub np thunderus set, he can sometimes win if focus blst misses, and can survive an hp ice. He may die, but it forces the opponent into switching or die to your revenger.
Once again... he is NOT an amazing poke... just good with the right team synergy, esspecially against alot of the current ou meta... You can search a couple of battle people have had against me on youtube and see what i mean...
Completely agree with this comment... People Dont know how to have a conversation on any of the smogon threads without taking shit too far... Then again... we are playing "pokemon"... Its players vastly range in age and maturity.
In regards to your arguement about skymin... I agree with alot of the other stuff you have said on other topics, but this topic i disagree with. While I do not think its wrong to Test shit out, your calcs dont reflect the annoyingness of serene grace. The word "annoying" is not a good way to describe skymin because it is so subjective. This guy can kill counters with one flinch or sp def drop. That is not "annoying" to me... That is rape. If one serene grace proc can lead to an early game sweep because your counter was on the recieving end, that seems a little more significant than annoying, dont you think?
I think the best way to approach this arguement against skymin would be this:
Swift, for the painful (which may be an understatement) month that skymin is being tested, How often do you think you would see him on opponents teams? Would you be forced to carry multiple skymin counters, and counters to your opponents skymin counters in the current OU environment?
Didn't see this comin'. Anyway thank you for agreeing, it's about time to test what made Drizzle broken in the first place. And contrary to unbanning BP/LI (which I also proposed) this has meaning outside of semantics. We nerfed Rain as a playstyle because of only 3 Swift Swimmers (mainly Kingdra but it had back up). But we banned Moody because everything with it was broken with it, what's with the inconsistency? Not all Swift Swimmers under perma-Rain are broken and that is a hard fact. If the policy says that Luvdisc and Floatzel are too powerful under Drizzle effects then something is wrong.
Although Adamant CB E-Vire does get the OHKO on Bliseey 20.51% of the time, it doesn't get a OHKO on Chansey or Ferrothorn using Crosschop. Calcs done with Max Hp/Max Def Bold on Blissey and Chansey and Max HP, 4 Def Sassy Ferrothorn. After a Curse it's actually a 2-3HKO depending on which switches in. This is all with Cross Chop and Choice Band, which this set is not. If you're using a Life Orb and Max Sp Atk (I hope you're not since this set is supposed to be mixed) it's a 28.22% chance to OHKO Standard Ferrothorn with Flamethrower. LO Cross Chop with Max Atk (which a mixed set shouldn't have) fails to OHKO as well. Your Ice Punch will OHKO Thundurus (like most if not all Ice moves in OU) and that claim is true, however E-Vire fails to consistently get all but one of the one shots you claim unless those pokemon are already damaged and is therefore outclassed consistently by other pokemon at whatever role it tries to fill, which is the problem with E-Vire in the first place.
Edit: My calcs say Expert Belt Max Sp Atk Flamethrower in Rain is a 3HKO. Might as well got for Cross Chop which is a 2-3HKO. There are better Ferrothorn counters. Blissey? Solid 2HKO. Chansey? Solid 3HKO. As always, there are better options.
Clearly there are many pokes that do electivires job better... Hes not ou for a reason... Just went over some scenarios where he can be effective... He just cant sweep reliably.
Also what made people want to to start considering testing swift swimmers?
Two words... Team preview
Is the near-supermajority of voters who think Thundurus is broken. Don't pull that "dismiss all of your points one by one" tripe and pretend they don't formulate a relevant argument. Thundurus is a problem. It has a pathetic list of counters and it's really hard to check because of its priority Twave. Something needs to be done.
Drizzle is another, and it's expressing its dominance harder than ever now. We don't need to make it more problematic by allowing the weather sweepers back, because quite frankly, I'm not interested in conducting science experiments with the OU metagame to see if we can get away with 'just a little broken'. All it's doing is flirting with the fine line, which is retarded. If you need a little excitement, go to the PO server. They have all the Blaziken and Deo-N you could ever want (but they also have Drizzle banned...!).
The round is only a fourth of the way over.. obviously it's way too early to tell.
I absolutely agree with this 1400 should be the requirement more voters means a better and more accurate result an gives more of the smogon community a greater involvement in the metagame they play. Either that or a set top 50 or 70 accounts get to vote. Pokemon online weighted voting system is also good where the higher you are on ladder the more weight it has.
A lot of people have said that allowing 1400 would allow lots of noobs to vote but they are just being arrogant due to their skill, I consider myself an alright player who can vote without bias with good knowledge of what I broken in the metagame and yet I would struggle to reach even 1400 a maintain that for a week or so.
That was my point.
The fact that removing the blanket nerf we have now on Swift Swimmers would be a popular move and more importantly getting away from the practice of nerfing a playstyle into OU when you can ban the element that is detrimental to the metagame, which is normal procedure. Besides, Luvdisc is nerfed. Luvdisc. That's literally one of the worst pokemon and why should it be nerfed when a ban would be direct to the point. It raises the issue of hypocrisy, Excadrill is less effective than Kingdra under their respective weathers. Excadrill is nominated as Excadrill, Kingdra and possibly two others brought down everything with the ability. How does the old song go? One of these things is not like the other?"
I referred to that, but of course you didn't quote that part.
Lol what? You post an argument, I break it down and form a counter argument. It's standard procedure, take a chill pill.
We vote on it. It's likely going Uber this Round since it got the simple majority rather easily (by a 20 vote margin iirc) so why cry about it? It's going Uber and tbh it's not impossible to beat. It's annoying more than anything.
Pause. Look at the plural form sweepers. That wasn't my idea at all. I said individual swift swimmers. This is a lie.
Quite frankly, this is just plain propoganda degrading an actually well thought out idea and refusing to even aknowledge the merits of them. The idea was never to introduce slightly broken elements into the metagame and pass them off as "slightly" broken. That's simply not true. The idea is to peel back the Aldaron Proposal by testing (in however short a period) individual swift swimmers and voting on whether any should be allowed to come down to OU with Drizzle. Your statement failed to recognize pokemon like Floatzel, who are not and were not broken under any condition this Gen. I know you don't believe Swift Swim Floatzel would be broken. If I'm right (hope I am) then why are you getting so mad about bringing it down?
Unless you fear the suspect voters voting Kingdra OU with Drizzle, then I don't think so. The fine line you mention is a non-issue when it's a trial basis. The sweeper (notice the singular form) let down would be brought down for a probationary period and voted on immediately after the round was over.
Never mentioned Blaziken or Deo-N. Relax.
I agree with both SJCrew and Nkululeko.
If Drizzle remains to be a controversial subject material, we shouldn't exacerbate the controversy by bringing back Swift Swimmers. Aldaron's Proposal has done a good job in balancing the weather-dominated metagame (admittedly with a number of casualties).
Yet, I agree that Aldaron's Proposal was the easy (meaning the shortest) way out of the solution, which is why we chose it. Once we as a community agree that Drizzle stays for good, we should re-consider the Combination ban and see whether any non-broken viable Swift Swimmers can see practical use in OU. This is getting more to the root of the problem (identifying the actual overwhelming Swift Swimmers) than Aldaron's Proposal.
If we do decide to examine individual Swift Swimmers, I propose one thing, however. There should be a cap to the # of Swift Swimmers we ban. Once the number of Swift Swimmers banned exceeds this threshold, I believe at this point reverting back to Aldaron's Proposal would be perfectly justified. This is because, the number of Pokemon banned outweighs the number of Pokemon being able to use Swift Swim.
Here are viable Swift Swimmers (including unreleased) that would benefit with the lifting of Aldaron's Proposal. What I consider viable is very liberal:
1) Kingdra
2) Kabutops
3) Ludicolo
4) Omastar
5) Gorebyss
6) Huntail
7) Carracosta
8) Floatzel
9) Golduck
10) Poliwrath
11) Qwilfish
rest is really garbage...(Seismitoed, Seaking, Luvdisc, Armaldo, Beartic...)
Personally, this cap # should not exceed half of the listed viable Swift Swimmers. Otherwise, we would be banning more Pokemon than what would actually benefit from lifting Aldaron's Proposal. In this case, once we ban 6 Swift Swimmers we go back to the Aldaron's Proposal. I think once we ban that many Swift Swimmers, we can conclude that Drizzle + Swift Swim is the key issue rather than a particular few exceptional swift swimmers; hence the Combination Ban is finally justified. Aldaron's Proposal would disable all Swift Swimmers, regardless of proven broken or not, but I believe the damage done is less drastic than eliminating 6+ Pokemon from any tiers outside of Ubers.
It is ironic how people did not want to go through the proposal I have written out (on my sig) due to time constraints. Yet, it seems like my proposal would have dealt with Drizzle more decisively and thus may have actually saved time (or take a same amount of time at worst).
PS: The list of viable Swift Swimmers and the actual cap # are not set in stone. I just wanted to suggest the idea of setting a cap on the number of Swift Swimmers, which we are willing to ban for the sake of liberating non-broken Swift Swimmers. The cap # allows us to decide whether to re-implement Aldaron's Proposal or ban Specific Swift Swimmers for the good of the metagame.
If Drizzle remains to be a controversial subject material, we shouldn't exacerbate the controversy by bringing back Swift Swimmers. Aldaron's Proposal has done a good job in balancing the weather-dominated metagame (admittedly with a number of casualties).
Yet, I agree that Aldaron's Proposal was the easy (meaning the shortest) way out of the solution, which is why we chose it. Once we as a community agree that Drizzle stays for good, we should re-consider the Combination ban and see whether any non-broken viable Swift Swimmers can see practical use in OU. This is getting more to the root of the problem (identifying the actual overwhelming Swift Swimmers) than Aldaron's Proposal.
If we do decide to examine individual Swift Swimmers, I propose one thing, however. There should be a cap to the # of Swift Swimmers we ban. Once the number of Swift Swimmers banned exceeds this threshold, I believe at this point reverting back to Aldaron's Proposal would be perfectly justified. This is because, the number of Pokemon banned outweighs the number of Pokemon being able to use Swift Swim.
Here are viable Swift Swimmers (including unreleased) that would benefit with the lifting of Aldaron's Proposal. What I consider viable is very liberal:
1) Kingdra
2) Kabutops
3) Ludicolo
4) Omastar
5) Gorebyss
6) Huntail
7) Carracosta
8) Floatzel
9) Golduck
10) Poliwrath
11) Qwilfish
rest is really garbage...(Seismitoed, Seaking, Luvdisc, Armaldo, Beartic...)
Personally, this cap # should not exceed half of the listed viable Swift Swimmers. Otherwise, we would be banning more Pokemon than what would actually benefit from lifting Aldaron's Proposal. In this case, once we ban 6 Swift Swimmers we go back to the Aldaron's Proposal. I think once we ban that many Swift Swimmers, we can conclude that Drizzle + Swift Swim is the key issue rather than a particular few exceptional swift swimmers; hence the Combination Ban is finally justified. Aldaron's Proposal would disable all Swift Swimmers, regardless of proven broken or not, but I believe the damage done is less drastic than eliminating 6+ Pokemon from any tiers outside of Ubers.
It is ironic how people did not want to go through the proposal I have written out (on my sig) due to time constraints. Yet, it seems like my proposal would have dealt with Drizzle more decisively and thus may have actually saved time (or take a same amount of time at worst).
PS: The list of viable Swift Swimmers and the actual cap # are not set in stone. I just wanted to suggest the idea of setting a cap on the number of Swift Swimmers, which we are willing to ban for the sake of liberating non-broken Swift Swimmers. The cap # allows us to decide whether to re-implement Aldaron's Proposal or ban Specific Swift Swimmers for the good of the metagame.
I wasn't taking you or your proposal seriously before you said this, but now I'm absolutely convinced your cause has no merit. You're telling me something with 105 base Att, 115 base Speed, double STAB on one of the best offensive types in the game, double Speed, and a good enough movepool to get past every wall or bulky offensive mon in the tier isn't going to be broken if we let it back?
Ok. Let's just assume we only allow Floatzel.
252 Att/136 Def/120 Speed (just enough to outspeed Scarf Jolteon lol)
Bulk Up
Waterfall
Low Kick
Return / Ice Punch
+1 Low Kick on standard Ferro: 77.5% - 91.6%
Power Whip on +1/+1 Floatzel: 70.1% - 83%
This is basically saying "Let's all use defensive Grass-types other than Ferrothorn for a month and hate it because we're too stupid to see that the tier is much more balanced with zero Swift Swimmers than it is with one or two."
I'm not going to bother with any more examples. This will never happen.
I don't like this proposal. One Swift Swimmer was already bad enough (my team back before Aldaron's proposal only had one Swift Swimmer). People are complaining without Swift Swim, can you imagine if the standard rain team got access to stuff like Specs Kingdra again? Not convincing.
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