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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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With enough Speed investment, Heatran will outspeed bulky Rotom-W (for example, Heatran can outspeed the standard 112 HP / 252 SAtk / 144 Spe with a Modest nature if it uses 220 Speed EVs with a Speed-neutral nature or 132 EVs with a Speed-boosting nature. 228 Speed EVs and a Speed-boosting nature allow Heatran to outspeed Rotom-W that run maximum speed with a Speed-neutral nature, so Rotom-W isn't necessarily faster than Heatran. You do have to watch out for Choice Scarf variants, though.
Hidden Power Grass also helps against Pokemon like Jellicent, Quagsire, Gastrodon, and Starmie, so it's a perfectly viable option if you need a lure for those sorts of Pokemon.
Air Balloon is good if you desperately need a check to things like Excadrill, Dragon Dance Salamence, and Dragon Dance Dragonite. Leftovers is more reliable in the long run, but Air Balloon is a decent option if you really need that one-time counter/check to something that your team otherwise has trouble with.
I actually haven't tried Specially Defensive Heatran out myself this Generation, but I can see how well it would work. Timid Volvarona's Hidden Power Ground does 85% - 100.5% to 252 HP / 252 SDef Heatran, assuming Volcarona has one Special Attack boost, so Heatran actually has a good chance to survive without entry hazards and a slight chance to survive with damage from Stealth Rock or one layer of Spikes. It can also use Protect to gain Leftovers recovery and improve its chances of survival.
Heatran sounds pretty solid with Drought support as well. I'm thinking of using that set, but with Life Orb over Choice Specs and possibly Fire Blast over Overheat.
In that case, I apologize for misunderstanding you. I've thought about running both Salamence and Dragonite on the same team to take advantage of opposing weather, but then I figured that it would be better for me to use them in a way that wasn't so dependent on the opponent's weather and just go with a standard Double Dragon strategy where either mixed Salamence or Choice Band Dragonite weakened walls so that the other Dragon-type could set up a Dragon Dance sweep. This by no means prevents either of them from working well in a dedicated weather team.
All of these cool suggestions actually make me want to try out a Drought-based team. It's probably a good idea for me to ladder with different types of teams and Pokemon so that I have a better understanding of the metagame, especially if I earn voting rights this round.
As for Kingdra, I think that it's a great anti-Drizzle Pokemon, but something of a liability outside of rain.
I'd also like to add a set that I think works well in the current metagame. Choice Band Scolipede has a surprising number of applications in this metagame. Here's the set I use:
Scolipede (M) @ Choice Band
Trait: Poison Point
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Megahorn
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Spikes
It seems kind of weird, but hear me out before you laugh. It scares Tyranitar off with STAB Megahorn, which also has approximately a 61% chance to OHKO Reuniclus, it can outspeed and revenge kill Tornadus and Thundurus, as well as Latios and Latias. It OHKOs Tornadus and Thundurus with Rock Slide after Stealth Rock. Earthquake gives additional coverage against stuff like Heatran and Magnezone. Spikes are there because it really doesn't have very many options for the last slot, and Spikes can trick your opponent into thinking that you don't have a Choice Band. In addition, you can set up Spikes if you're not sure what your opponent will switch into and you don't want to risk an incorrect prediction. The biggest flaw with this set is its general frailty, but it works as a decent Spikes-user and revenge killer.
I personally think that the only thing that needs banning this round is Latios. Weather has stabilized without chomp, Thundurus can be taken care of fairly easily, but Latios is just a pain in the neck. You will have absolutely 0% chance of getting very far in this metagame without a steel type, and that is completely because of Latios. It's much faster than most pokemon, and specs draco meteor can cripple if not KO anything that's not a steel-type or Blissey. If your steel type has been KO'd and Latios is still around, something is going to die. It's as simple as that
But only Jirachi and Blissey/Chansey can heal up...you basically have a Scizor/T-tar/Escavalier/etc. with 50% HP and relying solely on Lefties.
Davy Jones, you should really post more! Very thoughtful posts, man.
I personally did not like Explosion on Heatran even before the nerf. Heatran is too good of a Pokemon to just blow up. Explosion is often seen on Lead Heatrans, which I sort of felt was a waste of a Heatran's potential imo. Specstran can even outmuscle Blissey with rocks down; Scarftran is an awesome revenge-killer and a cleaner late-game; it can phaze; it can status; it can take hits. I'd rather have Roar, Substitute, Metal Sound, Toxic / Wisp, Taunt, or a coverage move over Explosion. It depends on the team, but I feel like all the above options would benefit more than blowing Heatran up.
I think what's really hurting Heatran's usage are the Latis and Drizzle. However, Heatran has gotten its own set of tools this gen, in a form of Flare Charge and Drought, making it more of a powerhouse. And although Air Balloon is only temporary and not good on defensive Heatrans, the loss of Ground weakness on offensive Heatran is godsend.
Tobes said:
I personally did not like Explosion on Heatran even before the nerf. Heatran is too good of a Pokemon to just blow up. Explosion is often seen on Lead Heatrans, which I sort of felt was a waste of a Heatran's potential imo. Specstran can even outmuscle Blissey with rocks down; Scarftran is an awesome revenge-killer and a cleaner late-game; it can phaze; it can status; it can take hits. I'd rather have Roar, Substitute, Metal Sound, Toxic / Wisp, Taunt, or a coverage move over Explosion. It depends on the team, but I feel like all the above options would benefit more than blowing Heatran up.
I think what's really hurting Heatran's usage are the Latis and Drizzle. However, Heatran has gotten its own set of tools this gen, in a form of Flare Charge and Drought, making it more of a powerhouse. And although Air Balloon is only temporary and not good on defensive Heatrans, the loss of Ground weakness on offensive Heatran is godsend.
I agree with Kefka. Also, like I said before, there ARE solid ways to take care of latios. But they are few and far between, and you are often forced to switch around your team to specifically take care of latios. It just seems a bit too overcentralized to me
I agree 100% with Homestar on Latios, and I've been saying this for a few rounds. It's not enough to just have a Steel on your team, since I've switched my Scizor or Ferrothorn into HP Fire too many times to count. Latios gets by on having really good checks, but they're all pretty easy to beat, save for maybe Jirachi. The fact that Tyranitar and Sandstorm are as common as they are, plus the semi-useless set-the-fuck-up-on-me specially defensive Jirachi are what's holding it steadfast in many people's minds as not broken, but it's simply not that easy for those well-versed in other styles of play.
Yes definitively, it's been great.
For everyone worrying about rain just grab Kingdra and if you think that has other counters on the opposite team get Ferrothorn. I've been using both as a combo and it's been great. Kingdra should be seen more in the ladder with it's enormous and versatile talents that it holds. I've been using a Bulky Kingdra set with chesto and it's been fine.
There is only one true counter to Latios, and that is Jirachi. Specially defensive Jirachi can take draco meteor (or even a few HP fires) and paraflinch it to death. Blissey and other steel types (such as ferrothorn, bronzong etc.) can take its moves, but can't do much to it as it can simply switch out, or latios can use hp fire to catch them off guard and KO. Scizor and tyranitar are decent checks, but don't like taking hits from latios. And if you don't have one of these pokemon on your team, or if these pokemon on your team are already KO'd and your opponent has latios, it is game over.
Hate to say this but the community only bans what they can't or don't want to handle and not everything that's actually broken. Everything has their counters and checks but let's look at the trend here.
Tyranitar and Scizor were #1 and #4 in usage. This means that just about every team had one or the other or both. So even if latios killed something, they just bring one in and pursuit it. Most people don't have a problem with it so no ban.
Gliscor was #5 in usage. Just about everyone uses gliscor. Everyone can handle excadrill. No ban.
Skarmory and Bronzong were #16 and #46 in usage. Well we don't really want to use skarmory or bronzong because we're trying to fit ferrothorn into our team and can't have too many steels. But now we don't have any hard counters to garchomp. Ban.
Jellicent was #18, Gyarados was #22 and Slowbro was #59. Blaziken = Ban.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying blaziken and chomp weren't broken. Quite the opposite. But you see the trend as some things fall under the radar because we're all using the pokemon that can handle them which is causing a very centralized metagame.
My guess is thunderus will probably be going soon because let's look at its counters/checks. Blissey/Chansey at #23 and #56; Porygon2 at #47; Quagsire at #64; gastrodon at #86. Not exactly things everyone has on their team.
Then why do you complain about Excadrill then?
>.>
Anyway, T-tar can lose to SpecsSurf, Scizor can lose to HP Fire, Blissey/Chansey can lose to Psyshock or Trick, and Jirachi also loses to Trick.
Meteor/Surf/HP Fire/Trick isn't so hard to run.
Oh, 349 Speed? What out speeds you? Other Lati@s and Gengar.
You shouldn't risk yourself against the former or the latter. So screw that argument.
I suppose that's true. Everyone uses a sand team, and while sand isn't broken, scizor, tyranitar, and excadrill w/ x-scissor can all handle latios. Oh well. All I can say is, I'm voting to ban latios.
lol no way in hell
fine
I'm sold
And I kinda agree with Homestar, Kefka and SJCrew... back in DPPt I'd say Specs Latios is broken, but this is the set which give me the least problems nowadays. Life Orb is such a bullshit item for it, specially under Rain.
Thank you very much; I certainly try.
I don't think you're really giving Explosion its due. It has very specific uses on Heatran: eliminating something that gives you trouble so something else can sweep, or letting Heatran take something with it when it's too weak to do anything else. For example, Magma Storm Heatran can trap and Explode on Blissey, clearing the way for something like Life Orb Starmie to sweep. Team Preview also kind of nerfed Explosion, since in DPPt you could hide your Starmie or other Specially-based sweeper until Heatran had lured and eliminated Blissey or whatever else stood in your way. Passho Heatran can lure and eliminate bulky Water-types for a sweeper like AgiliGross, for example. Between the nerf to the move itself and the advent of Team Preview, Explosion's not really a good option in the current metagame, but back in DPPt it was quite a good choice for offensive teams. I wouldn't really recommend it on a more defensive Heatran set, though. If you'd like to see how well Explosion works as a part of Heatran's moveset, I'd recommend checking out some of the teams that implement it in the RMT section containing DPPt teams. The one that I can think of off the top of my head that illustrates this principle the most effectively is Atticus's Team StrongBOTs. Both the team itself and comments from some of the raters show how deadly Explosion Heatran can be in the hands of a good player.
To be pedantic, it's not "as simple as that". To actually address the points you're making, Latios isn't the only reason almost every team carries a Steel-type. First of all, the Steel-type is easily the best defensive type in the game, boasting 11 resistances and 1 immunity. Second, even without Latios players would still use Steel-types to handle Dragon-types such as Salamence or Dragonite, not to mention all of the other defensive attributes Steel-types possess. Finally, the amazing defensive utility of Steel-types makes them easy to fit into a team as defensive pivots regardless of how many Dragon-types are running around.
With that said, I do agree that Latios is very difficult to handle. At the moment, I'm unsure exactly where I stand on Latios, but I'm leaning toward voting it broken. Its only real counter is Specially Defensive Jirachi, since it can run moves to handle every other would-be counter (Surf/Hidden Power Fighting for Tyranitar, Hidden Power Fire for Scizor, Ferrothorn, and other Steel-types, Psyshock for Blissey and Chansey, etc.). Even Specially Defensive Jirachi doesn't like Trick too much. Obviously, it can't run all of these moves on the same set, but my point still stands: Latios has some way to handle all of its counters, even if it can't beat all of them with one set.
I actually think that Life Orb Latios is the most dangerous set, as opposed to the Choice Specs set that everyone has been complaining about for around three testing periods now. I run this simple set:
Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Recover
The moves are pretty self-explanatory. Recover and Life Orb are the most important parts of the set, since they allow Latios to stick around much longer and switch moves, respectively. Since I generally run some sort of Spikes user on most of my teams, the power drop isn't too big of a deal. I generally need to perform some smart double switching to wear Tyranitar down, but otherwise I don't really have trouble with most of the Pokemon that normally give Latios difficulty, thanks to the ability to switch moves, which makes it harder for my opponent to punish me for a poor prediction.
I didn't quote SJCrew or anyone else talking about Latios, but I think that I have addressed your points nonetheless. If not, I'd be happy to do so if you point out what I missed.
I agree that this phenomenon exists, but I don't think it's necessary a result of any intent to abuse broken factors of the metagame; I just think that it's a case of skewed perspective. Pokemon like Gliscor, Tyranitar, and Scizor have plenty of other uses besides countering one specific Pokemon, so reasons to use these Pokemon would exist even without Latios or Excadrill. I think that people are looking at the issue from this perspective: "I use Gliscor as my Physical wall because it stops Fighting-types, and it can also stop Excadrill, so Excadrill isn't broken".
I'm not advocating a ban on stuff like Excadrill or Drizzle at the moment, since I don't think that I need to open that can of worms, or at least not until the voting dates draw closer, but neither am I saying that they should definitely stay OU. I would simply prefer to hold off on discussion of such elements until voting isn't quite so distant.
As per my newly established tradition of ending my posts in this thread with some set or other that I find cool or useful, I'd like to take the time to talk about Choice Scarf Infernape:
Infernape (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 208 Atk / 100 SAtk / 200 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Close Combat
- Overheat
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
Again, this is something that's a little odd, but it works pretty well. It can revenge kill stuff like Tornadus, Thundurus, +1 Speed Pokemon with Base 101 Speed or lower, and anything else that generally outspeeds the rest of the metagame. Infernape in general makes a great counter to Volcarona that don't carry Hidden Power Ground, so it's worth looking into if you have trouble with Volcarona.
The EVs are pretty specific. The Speed beats Choice Scarf Landorus, and the EVs in one attacking stat, probably Special Attack, get a certain KO that I considered important at the time, although I don't remember what it is at the moment, and I'll update as soon as I remember it (if I remember it). The rest of the EVs just pump up the other attacking stat.
Now, you may be thinking "Why would I use this over Terrakion? Terrakion has the same Base Speed, a higher Base Attack, and a STAB combination that gets better coverage". Here is why I would consider this over Terrakion: better mixed attacking stats, a movepool to hit targets Terrakion has trouble with, and a different set of weaknesses, resistances, and neutralities than Terrakion. Either of these two Pokemon make excellent revenge killers. The choice really depends on what your team needs.
My point is that stuff like excadrill falls under the radar because everyone is using a gliscor and therefore think it's not broken.
And whether or not TTar/scizor loses to certain moves is irrelevant. The point is that if something dies to specs draco meteor, you bring in TTar/scizor for the pursuit revenge kill. A 1 for 1 trade and latios is no longer a problem for your team.
Personally I agree with you and think latios is a tad broken but I'm just showing you how the rest of the players handle latios and the reason they think it isn't broken. But just because your team has no problems handling something, it doesn't mean it isn't broken. Personally I had no trouble with garchomp at all because I carry a skarmory but I accept that not every team should be forced to carry X pokemon or be swept. Just as not every team should be forced to carry TTar/scizor/gliscor etc.
As stated a few pages back, let's try to discuss about the metagame, not whether something is "broken" or not. Latios is another Pokemon that has been discussed forever and once again both the sides have their arguments but we're not going to come to an agreement. Instead of turning this thread into a massive quote war let's just discuss on the metagame in general.
I, for one, find Latios incredibily underwheliming and just yesterday, when discussing with my tutee about 3-dragons strategies we both agreed that it was not worth a spot in his team.
I, for one, find Latios incredibily underwheliming and just yesterday, when discussing with my tutee about 3-dragons strategies we both agreed that it was not worth a spot in his team.
I vote to ban Haxrachi!!! Thing is broke dude >:(
j/k though I do hate that thing with a passion...
This is coming from the perspective from a total poke-newb, but I never had any troubles with most of the pokemon people are asking to be banned. So, if I can handle things like Excadrill and Thundarus I'm sure most experienced players can find outs to them. I think people just cry ban too quick.
Though I do agree on the hate for Latios, just let his sister stay in OU if you really want a Dragon/Psychic type. He'll do fine in Ubers anyways so it's not like you're sending him to his death up there.
Also I know this topic is way out of date, but is there any chance we could take another look at Deoxys normal form? (I forget the name for it). If I remember correctly he barley hit the vote to go Uber, and a lot of people took issue with how he was sent there.
idk just asking I remember it being a hot-topic a while ago.
j/k though I do hate that thing with a passion...
This is coming from the perspective from a total poke-newb, but I never had any troubles with most of the pokemon people are asking to be banned. So, if I can handle things like Excadrill and Thundarus I'm sure most experienced players can find outs to them. I think people just cry ban too quick.
Though I do agree on the hate for Latios, just let his sister stay in OU if you really want a Dragon/Psychic type. He'll do fine in Ubers anyways so it's not like you're sending him to his death up there.
Also I know this topic is way out of date, but is there any chance we could take another look at Deoxys normal form? (I forget the name for it). If I remember correctly he barley hit the vote to go Uber, and a lot of people took issue with how he was sent there.
idk just asking I remember it being a hot-topic a while ago.
Personally, I don't find Latios a problem. It's essentially a revenge killer, because people have a damn hard time bringing it in otherwise. Secondly, Steels are common enough anyway, for reasons Davy Jones said earlier, and bringing in a decent defensive Steel (Heatran or Ferrothorn, for example) is enough to scare off a Specs variant and determine how much damage it's doing, at the very least, so you can figure out if it's Spec'd or not and make a relevant switch.
When the best Latios set is doing the same thing as Wobbuffet (except for the whole Taunt-weak thing) then it's really not that much of a problem. I think it just seems a lot worse because there are a number of viable sets.
As for LO Latios, I've generally seen it with CM, which means Heatran tends to be able to Roar it away effectively, or Ferrothorn can Seed it and watch it die pretty quickly. Without CM, I just can't see it having the power to KO, say, Gliscor, Ferrothorn or Heatran without losing out on bigger attacks. It takes a while to discover what set the Latios is running, methinks, but each set is quite easily manageable with a Steel-core, which most teams will have regardless of Latios existing or not.
When the best Latios set is doing the same thing as Wobbuffet (except for the whole Taunt-weak thing) then it's really not that much of a problem. I think it just seems a lot worse because there are a number of viable sets.
As for LO Latios, I've generally seen it with CM, which means Heatran tends to be able to Roar it away effectively, or Ferrothorn can Seed it and watch it die pretty quickly. Without CM, I just can't see it having the power to KO, say, Gliscor, Ferrothorn or Heatran without losing out on bigger attacks. It takes a while to discover what set the Latios is running, methinks, but each set is quite easily manageable with a Steel-core, which most teams will have regardless of Latios existing or not.
Coming back to the whole Lati@s thing,
Sub/CM/Roost/Dragon Pulse Latias is only countered/checked by 3 common pokes:
Jirachi
Scizor
Tyranitar
All you have to do is get rid of these three, and you are ready to sweep.
Personally, I'm using a TR/HP Fire/Focus Blast/Psychic Reuniclus to lure in Scizor and Tyranitar, and trust me, it has killed lots of them. Kill Jirachi with any of your 4 remaining pokes, and CMLatias is ready to sweep.
tl;dr: Latias is probably the most underrated poke in the OU metagame.
Sub/CM/Roost/Dragon Pulse Latias is only countered/checked by 3 common pokes:
Jirachi
Scizor
Tyranitar
All you have to do is get rid of these three, and you are ready to sweep.
Personally, I'm using a TR/HP Fire/Focus Blast/Psychic Reuniclus to lure in Scizor and Tyranitar, and trust me, it has killed lots of them. Kill Jirachi with any of your 4 remaining pokes, and CMLatias is ready to sweep.
tl;dr: Latias is probably the most underrated poke in the OU metagame.
Surely that set is countered by almost anything with a decent physical Ice attack that can take a +1 Dragon Pulse/2 Dragon Pulses? Switch in on the predicted CM, take the hit if it decides to go for it, or watch as it sets up a sub. Then hit with the Ice attack, watch as the sub breaks or as you knock the Latias down a decent amount, then KO next turn.
Seems like Mamoswine and Cloyster are pretty nice answers to that set.
Seems like Mamoswine and Cloyster are pretty nice answers to that set.
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