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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
- Start date
- Status
He has a point, if the stuff Ferrothorn checks/counters has become less popular then that's more proof of its success.
Rain team is a pain too.
The problem with conkeldurr is not gliscor. It's that most players will simply switch to something that can kill him instead, which isn't very hard to do. Yeah, you can remove Starmie, latios, etc, but why do this for conk when you could just be using a better sweeper?
My CB Ttar spams stone edge against Conk switch ins. Then I go to acid spray tentacruel. With hp ice on everything, gliscor...
My CB Ttar spams stone edge against Conk switch ins. Then I go to acid spray tentacruel. With hp ice on everything, gliscor...
ehh people understimate Conkeldurr, the bastard is not easy to just "kill" it can take a Latios DM and OHKO back, Politoed's Hydro Pump doesn't OHKO at full health either (and if you miss you're fucked) while Drain Punch is going to heal a ton if poli was at full hp, I think that Gliscor is Conkeldurr's main problem, and everyone and their dogs use Gliscor on their teams, same as how Latios is still OU because everyone use Tyranitar or Jirachi (and arent smart enough just to use trick, seriously, Tyranitar is the only real problem for Latios, trick fucks everyone else), anyway Alpha, you have 3 checks for Conkeldurr, if you have only one and the other player knows how to use it Conkeldurr can be a real pest
Specially when you're playing with a friend and your Politoed or Deoxys-S miss theirs Hydro Pump and Psycho Boost in a row in three fucking matches >_>
Specially when you're playing with a friend and your Politoed or Deoxys-S miss theirs Hydro Pump and Psycho Boost in a row in three fucking matches >_>
Maybe I DO gravitate to pokes who screw with conkeldurr. But I seem to coincidentally use one on every team. And how much investment does conk need to tank a draco meteor/specs pump? The amount of random crap he loses to is worse than any other pokemon. I mean, it loses to subroost moltres for crying out loud even if it has Stone edge. No SR.
I fought against an RU team with him before and couldn't accomplish anything with him at all.
I fought against an RU team with him before and couldn't accomplish anything with him at all.
Unfortunately, many of those threats haven't become any less popular, most notably Latios, Thundurus, and Rotom-W. The metagame has merely shifted and these threats have adapted accordingly, turning a once reliable counter into a shaky check.
You must have been seeing some specially defensive Conkeldurr. Standard Conkeldurr has no chance of surviving either of those, and without Attack investment, you're just walled even harder by Gliscor and Reuniclus.
Having Politoed as a check isn't even that bad, since it's Fighting neutral and can be worn down until it's in KO range by Mach Punch, +1 or otherwise. Latios can be removed with Pursuit. I've seen it beat Gliscor on occasion, but most of the time, there's not much you can really do besides pair it with a sweeping partner and try to wear it down.
The set he's referring to is probably Max HP/Max Sp Def Bold/Careful with Bulk Up. And although it's good at wearing down unprepared teams and refusing to die w/Drain Punch, w/o Attack investment it's stopped cold by a couple common pokes.
How does Gyarados work from other peoples opinions? I've had some pretty good success with him, he's an awesome check to Scizor and many fighting pokemon. Rotom W is a pain in the ass to him, but he functions quite well otherwise I think.
Okay.
I know that Excadrill's been through Suspect testing countless times and have been discussed to death already, but if you listen, you might learn something.
Basically, this is another "Excadrill is broken" rant. I'll carefully outline why and attempt to dismantle the existing arguments on why it is not.
Reasons why Excadrill is broken:
It completely and utterly renders fast/hyper/heavy/rapid offense (whatever you want to call it) unplayable
Eh, I used to hate this argument, but I've kind of changed my mind on that.
So yeah, I decide to try and get on PO to try (again) and make an ultra fast offense team last night (I mean, they are fun to play, your matches end quickly) and just simply cannot finish making it. Why? Because Excadrill completely walks over it, and if I were to put in a Pokemon to try and counter it, it would completely destroy the team's momentum.
The biggest reason I have heard on why Excadrill is not Uber material is that it is hard countered by a number of Pokemon, and it has a decent amount of checks. I'll go ahead and list them:
- Gliscor
- Skarmory
- Bronzong
- Tangrowth
- Hippowdon
- Conkelderp (+0 EQ 2HKOs, so you can only switch in once)
- Azumarill (See Azumarill)
- Politoed (Needs Choice Scarf, and is a check at best)
- Ninetales (Cannot switch in)
Out of those Pokemon, which one of those Pokemon belongs on the type of team that is in the title? In other words, which one of those Pokemon could sweep a team? The first five Pokemon cannot sweep (Gliscor hits like a girl, and cannot sweep anything apart from a full stall team). Conkeldurr, Azumarill and Politoed are revenge killers at best, and aren't what you call Pokemon that gain you momentum. Conkeldurr is, from my experiences, too easily walled. Azumarill and Politoed are complete and utter hazard fodder. That leaves Ninetales, which admittedly can actually hurt things with Nasty Plot and sun boosted Fire attacks with a decent base 100 Speed... if only that it doesn't lose to Excadrill's primary weather inducer more often than not, and base 81 SpA is kind of mediocre. So basically, the idea is that IF you want to run an offensive team, you HAVE to run one of the Pokemon listed above (if not then Excadrill can just waltz in and rape you). You have to waste a teamslot just to stop yourself getting swept by the mole, a teamslot which can be filled by a much more competent Pokemon, a Pokemon that doesn't lose you the momentum as soon as you bring it out.
If you want a comparison to something we know, try to compare Excadrill with 4th gen UU Yanmega. Both Pokemon destroyed offensive play. Yanmega was as easily walled as Excadrill. You stuck a Pokemon called Chansey in front of it and Yanmega couldn't do a damn thing. Registeel could check it once of twice, and if you had Stealth Rock off the field, SpD Altaria and Moltres kept it down reasonably well. Did that stop Yanmega being the most broken Pokemon 4th gen UU had ever seen? No. Stopping Yanmega meant putting a Pokemon that could not gain you a single kgms-1 of momentum (except maybe Moltres, but he had massive problems). Now, same thing for Excadrill. Stopping the mole meant putting something that was completely irrelevant to the goal of the team. I think the perfect example is PK and Jabba's Enter the Dragon team (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3448743). For what purpose does Politoed serve other than to revenge Excadrill with? It says in the description that "it helps deal with Sandstorm teams better". Sandstorm teams = Excadrill for the most part. Instead of something that fits the slot better (Such as say, sweeper Deoxys-S to clean the mess that Haxorus and Latios shat behind, or even DD Mence to make the team even more epic), they had to use a Scarfed weather inducer when they already had a revenge killer.
I think this somes it up pretty well (From http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2131525&postcount=225):
Change to:
So please, do not give me crap such as "Excadrill is counterable" or "Excadrill is easily walled", as it is not a be all and end all to whether a Pokemon is broken or not. Garchomp was counterable. Blaziken was counterable. Arceus is counterable. Does not stop them being broken.
Another point is that Excadrill can revenge virtually anything on an offensive team. DD Mence, DD Gyarados, NP Thundurus, sweeper Deoxys-S, whatever you want, Excadrill will kill it for you. While if it was just your average Choice Scarf revenge killer, I wouldn't be complaining. Something like Choice Scarf Latios, Choice Scarf Jirachi are balanced by 1) They are easily setup on by something else after they've revenged the mon, and 2) They are likely to be trapped by Wobbuffet, or Tyranitar, or whatever. Excadrill does not fall into either of those categories. It can easily come in, kill your sweeper, switch out, and kill something else just as easily, or even sweep before you know it. Having a double resistance to Stealth Rock and usable bulk helps it too. If your opponent does not have something like RP Landlos or Terrakion, and you can be sure that the sand stays up (which is easy, since Tyranitar wins lots of weather wars all by himself), unless you're stupid and let someone get a bunch of Dragon Dances or something, you can just bring in Excadrill and kill that Pokemon without much prediction at all.
In fact, you can run a very good stall team with Excadrill as an offensive spinner, and watch it decimate offense all by itself. Anything that Excadrill cannot take on (Gliscor, slower, bulkier sweepers) are easily walled by something else on the stall team. If you can find one Pokemon on a stall team that can easily destroy an entire playstyle by itself, you have a problem.
But wait, it's not limited to just offense!
Excadrill doesn't just annihilate full-blown offense. It causes problems for Stall, to a certain extent too. This is due to his ability to pull off Rapid Spin extremely easily. There is not a single spin-blocker in playable OU that can take on Excadrill and stop it from spinning (hell, you'd be hard pressed to find a spin-blocker in Ubers that can do it, too). So, you have your normal stall team, spending a number of turns trying to set up entry hazards... only to have Excadrill come in and spin it all away for nothing. While Excadrill does find it harder to actually sweep a stall team, it causes quite some problems nonetheless.
Excadrill messes up Speed tiers
This was originally pointed out by Snunch, so I'm not going to talk too much about it. You can find his post somewhere earlier in the last megathread, IIRC. The main points were:
- Massive gap between Excadrill and the next fastest Pokemon
- No-one runs Scarfers anymore
and uh...
- Speed tiers are all clustered around 100-111 because there's no point running faster (I think)
So, while we don't use the Uber characteristics any more, they are still a good reference to try and prove a Pokemon's power. I would like to remind you all on what it is:
It can sweep offensive teams with little effort already, just like I have mentioned. It also gives significant inconveniences to stall and balance, by spinning away hazards easily, and since weather is quite easily kept by Tyranitar, it puts a lot of pressure on those teams anyway. Destroy offense + Cause trouble for both balance and stall ~ Significant portion of teams in the metagame in my eyes.
tl:dr
Now get that mole out o_0
Fuck Excadrill. Fuck it to hell.
I know that Excadrill's been through Suspect testing countless times and have been discussed to death already, but if you listen, you might learn something.
Basically, this is another "Excadrill is broken" rant. I'll carefully outline why and attempt to dismantle the existing arguments on why it is not.
Reasons why Excadrill is broken:
It completely and utterly renders fast/hyper/heavy/rapid offense (whatever you want to call it) unplayable
Eh, I used to hate this argument, but I've kind of changed my mind on that.
So yeah, I decide to try and get on PO to try (again) and make an ultra fast offense team last night (I mean, they are fun to play, your matches end quickly) and just simply cannot finish making it. Why? Because Excadrill completely walks over it, and if I were to put in a Pokemon to try and counter it, it would completely destroy the team's momentum.
The biggest reason I have heard on why Excadrill is not Uber material is that it is hard countered by a number of Pokemon, and it has a decent amount of checks. I'll go ahead and list them:
- Gliscor
- Skarmory
- Bronzong
- Tangrowth
- Hippowdon
- Conkelderp (+0 EQ 2HKOs, so you can only switch in once)
- Azumarill (See Azumarill)
- Politoed (Needs Choice Scarf, and is a check at best)
- Ninetales (Cannot switch in)
Out of those Pokemon, which one of those Pokemon belongs on the type of team that is in the title? In other words, which one of those Pokemon could sweep a team? The first five Pokemon cannot sweep (Gliscor hits like a girl, and cannot sweep anything apart from a full stall team). Conkeldurr, Azumarill and Politoed are revenge killers at best, and aren't what you call Pokemon that gain you momentum. Conkeldurr is, from my experiences, too easily walled. Azumarill and Politoed are complete and utter hazard fodder. That leaves Ninetales, which admittedly can actually hurt things with Nasty Plot and sun boosted Fire attacks with a decent base 100 Speed... if only that it doesn't lose to Excadrill's primary weather inducer more often than not, and base 81 SpA is kind of mediocre. So basically, the idea is that IF you want to run an offensive team, you HAVE to run one of the Pokemon listed above (if not then Excadrill can just waltz in and rape you). You have to waste a teamslot just to stop yourself getting swept by the mole, a teamslot which can be filled by a much more competent Pokemon, a Pokemon that doesn't lose you the momentum as soon as you bring it out.
If you want a comparison to something we know, try to compare Excadrill with 4th gen UU Yanmega. Both Pokemon destroyed offensive play. Yanmega was as easily walled as Excadrill. You stuck a Pokemon called Chansey in front of it and Yanmega couldn't do a damn thing. Registeel could check it once of twice, and if you had Stealth Rock off the field, SpD Altaria and Moltres kept it down reasonably well. Did that stop Yanmega being the most broken Pokemon 4th gen UU had ever seen? No. Stopping Yanmega meant putting a Pokemon that could not gain you a single kgms-1 of momentum (except maybe Moltres, but he had massive problems). Now, same thing for Excadrill. Stopping the mole meant putting something that was completely irrelevant to the goal of the team. I think the perfect example is PK and Jabba's Enter the Dragon team (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3448743). For what purpose does Politoed serve other than to revenge Excadrill with? It says in the description that "it helps deal with Sandstorm teams better". Sandstorm teams = Excadrill for the most part. Instead of something that fits the slot better (Such as say, sweeper Deoxys-S to clean the mess that Haxorus and Latios shat behind, or even DD Mence to make the team even more epic), they had to use a Scarfed weather inducer when they already had a revenge killer.
I think this somes it up pretty well (From http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2131525&postcount=225):
Change to:
So please, do not give me crap such as "Excadrill is counterable" or "Excadrill is easily walled", as it is not a be all and end all to whether a Pokemon is broken or not. Garchomp was counterable. Blaziken was counterable. Arceus is counterable. Does not stop them being broken.
Another point is that Excadrill can revenge virtually anything on an offensive team. DD Mence, DD Gyarados, NP Thundurus, sweeper Deoxys-S, whatever you want, Excadrill will kill it for you. While if it was just your average Choice Scarf revenge killer, I wouldn't be complaining. Something like Choice Scarf Latios, Choice Scarf Jirachi are balanced by 1) They are easily setup on by something else after they've revenged the mon, and 2) They are likely to be trapped by Wobbuffet, or Tyranitar, or whatever. Excadrill does not fall into either of those categories. It can easily come in, kill your sweeper, switch out, and kill something else just as easily, or even sweep before you know it. Having a double resistance to Stealth Rock and usable bulk helps it too. If your opponent does not have something like RP Landlos or Terrakion, and you can be sure that the sand stays up (which is easy, since Tyranitar wins lots of weather wars all by himself), unless you're stupid and let someone get a bunch of Dragon Dances or something, you can just bring in Excadrill and kill that Pokemon without much prediction at all.
In fact, you can run a very good stall team with Excadrill as an offensive spinner, and watch it decimate offense all by itself. Anything that Excadrill cannot take on (Gliscor, slower, bulkier sweepers) are easily walled by something else on the stall team. If you can find one Pokemon on a stall team that can easily destroy an entire playstyle by itself, you have a problem.
But wait, it's not limited to just offense!
Excadrill doesn't just annihilate full-blown offense. It causes problems for Stall, to a certain extent too. This is due to his ability to pull off Rapid Spin extremely easily. There is not a single spin-blocker in playable OU that can take on Excadrill and stop it from spinning (hell, you'd be hard pressed to find a spin-blocker in Ubers that can do it, too). So, you have your normal stall team, spending a number of turns trying to set up entry hazards... only to have Excadrill come in and spin it all away for nothing. While Excadrill does find it harder to actually sweep a stall team, it causes quite some problems nonetheless.
Excadrill messes up Speed tiers
This was originally pointed out by Snunch, so I'm not going to talk too much about it. You can find his post somewhere earlier in the last megathread, IIRC. The main points were:
- Massive gap between Excadrill and the next fastest Pokemon
- No-one runs Scarfers anymore
and uh...
- Speed tiers are all clustered around 100-111 because there's no point running faster (I think)
So, while we don't use the Uber characteristics any more, they are still a good reference to try and prove a Pokemon's power. I would like to remind you all on what it is:
It can sweep offensive teams with little effort already, just like I have mentioned. It also gives significant inconveniences to stall and balance, by spinning away hazards easily, and since weather is quite easily kept by Tyranitar, it puts a lot of pressure on those teams anyway. Destroy offense + Cause trouble for both balance and stall ~ Significant portion of teams in the metagame in my eyes.
tl:dr
Now get that mole out o_0
Excadrill actually does well against Skarmory. It can switch in on it and spin away all of its spikes with a bit of prediction (the jellicent switch in) and it even beats Skarm 1v1 or with flinches, which happen alot due to the high chance and fact that Skarmory can't even damage Excadrill that much. Also don't shoot me I'm not discussing banning Excadrill.
also double dance (rock polish + SD) Skarmory is excellent for offensive teams!!!!
Also because that was a good post and because it is probably deleted by the time I post this, I copy pasted it just so that work doesn't go to waste.
also double dance (rock polish + SD) Skarmory is excellent for offensive teams!!!!
please mind some mistakes in this post. kinda tired. I mean no attitude or offense to any user.
@shrang
The problem with your post is that you basically are saying that since it can only sweep offensive teams its broken. Recognize that 5th gen is a different breed of metagame than 4th gen and should not be compared. It has been proven many times that full offense is possible in 5th gen. I think the problem with your analysis is that you think all offensive teams are like that of 4th gen which mainly consisted of pokemon that get stomped by excadrill. My question to you is ; what do you think 5th gen offense looks like? If a team runs NP thunderus, deoxys, DD gyarados and DD mence then how am I suppose to beat it besides using something faster? Your complaining about a pokemon beating other strong pokemon which is not worthy of arguement. If you are having trouble with excadrill. Use rain. Or pack a gliscor or some priority. Excadrill is just another pokemon you need someway to beat and its up to your play style to beat it. You have to push your teams agenda. Face it, 5th gen is all about the mix of offensive and defensive pokemon.
false, how is excadrill stopping +2 spe terrakion. Who makes a team completely disregarding the (lets be honest here) 3rd biggest threat to 5th gen behind thunderus and dragonite. Its your fault for not team building for the metagame not excadrills.
maybe you shouldn't use stall or pack a rapid spinner. Remember, this isnt 4th gen.
Its at the top, so what? Seems like grasping for straws because who is next in line for the speed tiers? is that a reason to ban them too? I suppose shuckle will be banned under your proposal at the end of 5th gen.
Finally inregards to
look at the RMTs in 5th gen. Can you take a excadrill and sweep with it? Nope so thats not a good arguement. In all, excadrill is not worthy of a ban ....yet.
Thunderus on the other hand needs a 1200 word essay.
@shrang
The problem with your post is that you basically are saying that since it can only sweep offensive teams its broken. Recognize that 5th gen is a different breed of metagame than 4th gen and should not be compared. It has been proven many times that full offense is possible in 5th gen. I think the problem with your analysis is that you think all offensive teams are like that of 4th gen which mainly consisted of pokemon that get stomped by excadrill. My question to you is ; what do you think 5th gen offense looks like? If a team runs NP thunderus, deoxys, DD gyarados and DD mence then how am I suppose to beat it besides using something faster? Your complaining about a pokemon beating other strong pokemon which is not worthy of arguement. If you are having trouble with excadrill. Use rain. Or pack a gliscor or some priority. Excadrill is just another pokemon you need someway to beat and its up to your play style to beat it. You have to push your teams agenda. Face it, 5th gen is all about the mix of offensive and defensive pokemon.
false, how is excadrill stopping +2 spe terrakion. Who makes a team completely disregarding the (lets be honest here) 3rd biggest threat to 5th gen behind thunderus and dragonite. Its your fault for not team building for the metagame not excadrills.
maybe you shouldn't use stall or pack a rapid spinner. Remember, this isnt 4th gen.
Its at the top, so what? Seems like grasping for straws because who is next in line for the speed tiers? is that a reason to ban them too? I suppose shuckle will be banned under your proposal at the end of 5th gen.
Finally inregards to
look at the RMTs in 5th gen. Can you take a excadrill and sweep with it? Nope so thats not a good arguement. In all, excadrill is not worthy of a ban ....yet.
Thunderus on the other hand needs a 1200 word essay.
I think there are plenty of options to deal with Excadrill. It's biggest flaw is its dependence on Sandstorm. Try making a Heavy Offensive Rain or Sun Team.
Here's a sample sun HO team
Another weakness is its vulnerability to accessible priority moves - Aqua Jet, Vacuum Wave, Mach Punch. I am pretty sure you can fit a Vacuum Wave Infernape / Lucario or something.
Here's a sample non-weather HO team
Another thing you can do is make sure that every one of your monsters have something to hit Excadrill hard. That way, even if it manages to Swords Dance, it would be easily revenged by priority moves. Also don't make your team full of Pokemon that are OHKOed by +0 Excadrill. There are plenty of heavy hard hitters that can also take a hit. If you use a Choice-locked monster, make sure that it doesn't have any moves that can be used as set-up bait for Excadrill - or at least avoid using those moves when Excadrill is on the opponent's team.
I've seen plenty of Scarfers - they are good for checking other threats, such as Thundurus. Scarfers aren't usually good on heavy offensive teams, though, since they lack the power - however, they are definitely used in teams.
Speaking of Gyarados and Conkeldurr and countering Excadrill... Gyrados & Conkeldurr can deal with Excadrill consistently. Gyarados's Intimidate and STAB Waterfall and Conkeldurr's Rock resist and STAB Fighting moves work in harmony to take out Excadrill or at least force it out while not taking much damage in exchange.
Here's a sample sun HO team
Another weakness is its vulnerability to accessible priority moves - Aqua Jet, Vacuum Wave, Mach Punch. I am pretty sure you can fit a Vacuum Wave Infernape / Lucario or something.
Here's a sample non-weather HO team
Another thing you can do is make sure that every one of your monsters have something to hit Excadrill hard. That way, even if it manages to Swords Dance, it would be easily revenged by priority moves. Also don't make your team full of Pokemon that are OHKOed by +0 Excadrill. There are plenty of heavy hard hitters that can also take a hit. If you use a Choice-locked monster, make sure that it doesn't have any moves that can be used as set-up bait for Excadrill - or at least avoid using those moves when Excadrill is on the opponent's team.
I've seen plenty of Scarfers - they are good for checking other threats, such as Thundurus. Scarfers aren't usually good on heavy offensive teams, though, since they lack the power - however, they are definitely used in teams.
Speaking of Gyarados and Conkeldurr and countering Excadrill... Gyrados & Conkeldurr can deal with Excadrill consistently. Gyarados's Intimidate and STAB Waterfall and Conkeldurr's Rock resist and STAB Fighting moves work in harmony to take out Excadrill or at least force it out while not taking much damage in exchange.
Hmm, its been about a month and still no voting/nominations. The mods most be pretty busy....
Anyway, pokemon like excadrill is not too broken, but Ill admit it can easily set up swords dances and sweep through teams. It will always get one kill and it forces a revenge kill by priority or something. And it would always switch out to prevent your priority users. Gliscor cannot kill it with balloon and frustration would do a lot. Also, Skarm cannot kill it, it just whirlwinds it out. If your last 2 pokes are skarm and exca, exca would most of the time win.
I personally think the best excadrill counter is cresselia. It can burn it, and it is not 2hkoed by +2 x-scissor. Another way is to kill it with residual dammage or entry hazards (without balloon) since it cant heal.
Without ballon, d-nite and gliscor become immediate counters to it, but balloon excadrill limites its options.
Conkeldurr kills excadrill, but it usually does not want to switch into it. Again, it mostly has to be revenge killed. And your opponent could switch in latios to kill your pokes.
Anyway, pokemon like excadrill is not too broken, but Ill admit it can easily set up swords dances and sweep through teams. It will always get one kill and it forces a revenge kill by priority or something. And it would always switch out to prevent your priority users. Gliscor cannot kill it with balloon and frustration would do a lot. Also, Skarm cannot kill it, it just whirlwinds it out. If your last 2 pokes are skarm and exca, exca would most of the time win.
I personally think the best excadrill counter is cresselia. It can burn it, and it is not 2hkoed by +2 x-scissor. Another way is to kill it with residual dammage or entry hazards (without balloon) since it cant heal.
Without ballon, d-nite and gliscor become immediate counters to it, but balloon excadrill limites its options.
Conkeldurr kills excadrill, but it usually does not want to switch into it. Again, it mostly has to be revenge killed. And your opponent could switch in latios to kill your pokes.
Problems with Excadrill huh?
Whimsicott can switch into Earthquake and threaten with Stun Spore.
Cloud Nine pokes can check it too.
Now that Adamant LO Excadrill is the most popular set, it is outsped by scarfers with base 120 speed and higher.
Dugtrio can revenge kill it consistently. Jolly scarf outspeeds, arena trap traps, and much to my surprise:
Dugtrio's Earthquake (259 attack) on 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 356 - 422 damage.
Excadrill's minimum HP is 361. If it has taken Life Orb damage, EQ is a guaranteed KO. 4 HP Excadrill has 362 HP, which is the second lowest number on the range (356 - 362 - 366 - 372 ect.) Excadrill is only surviving the hit with max HP and the absolute minimum damage roll.
Base 120+ pokes that can revenge Excadrill:
Jolteon
Deoxys-S
Sceptile
Weavile
Trickscarf Alakazam can revenge with Focus Blast / HP Fire, and is quite a good revenge killer too.
Stuff like Ninjask, Crobat and Electrode also outspeed, but I'm not sure what they can do to Excadrill.
Or you could just run a countersasher.
Whimsicott can switch into Earthquake and threaten with Stun Spore.
Cloud Nine pokes can check it too.
Now that Adamant LO Excadrill is the most popular set, it is outsped by scarfers with base 120 speed and higher.
Dugtrio can revenge kill it consistently. Jolly scarf outspeeds, arena trap traps, and much to my surprise:
Dugtrio's Earthquake (259 attack) on 4 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 356 - 422 damage.
Excadrill's minimum HP is 361. If it has taken Life Orb damage, EQ is a guaranteed KO. 4 HP Excadrill has 362 HP, which is the second lowest number on the range (356 - 362 - 366 - 372 ect.) Excadrill is only surviving the hit with max HP and the absolute minimum damage roll.
Base 120+ pokes that can revenge Excadrill:
Jolteon
Deoxys-S
Sceptile
Weavile
Trickscarf Alakazam can revenge with Focus Blast / HP Fire, and is quite a good revenge killer too.
Stuff like Ninjask, Crobat and Electrode also outspeed, but I'm not sure what they can do to Excadrill.
Or you could just run a countersasher.
As stated a few pages back, these broken\non broken argument are leading nowhere. Shrang you're just repeating something that has already been said at least 20 times in this thread and into the previous suspect threads.
The two posts above list a few ways to deal with Excadrill and while some of them are definitely gimmick, some others are of course viable. I think that it all comes down to team building. I rarely, if ever, pack dedicated Drill counters on my teams, but only lose to it occasionally.
Let's try to discuss on the metagame in general, rather than whether something is "broken" or not. It is too subjective and the suspect threads trend clearly shows that people are not going to change their minds on these "suspects".
The two posts above list a few ways to deal with Excadrill and while some of them are definitely gimmick, some others are of course viable. I think that it all comes down to team building. I rarely, if ever, pack dedicated Drill counters on my teams, but only lose to it occasionally.
Let's try to discuss on the metagame in general, rather than whether something is "broken" or not. It is too subjective and the suspect threads trend clearly shows that people are not going to change their minds on these "suspects".
The thing about all of the Pokemon listed is that they sap your momentum straight away, and none of them really fit on a team that relies on taking the momentum and keeping it. It's basically the same as trying to face Yanmega, you can "play around it" or even counter it quite easily, but doing so would sabotage your team in general. I'd be pretty disappointed in a metagame in which full blown offense is not viable because of one Pokemon.
All out offensive teams are still perfectly viable, look at PK Gaming's for example, you just need to pack at least a check\revenge killer for Exacdrill. If you don't give it the chance to set up then Drill is just an extremely fast Pokemon (in sandstorm) with an extremely powerful earthquake.
However my point is that discussing on whether something is broken or not has been proven to not help the discussion, so please get over it.
However my point is that discussing on whether something is broken or not has been proven to not help the discussion, so please get over it.
I disagree about Excadrill being broken, any hyper offense team can deal with it by carrying a poke with a priority move or Air Balloon Terrakion. Hell, you can even fit a Conkeldurr into an offensive team just because it doesn't know how to die with Drain Punch. Or you could simply make a rain/ sun based HO team and cut the mole's effectiveness entirely, or run a weather move on one of your pokes.
Speaking of Pokes that can run a weather move. Kingdra is a friggin beast. Although Drizzle+Swift Swim is banned, Kingdra still remains a potent offensive threat. Against Rain, the opponent sets up rain for you, and once Gastrodon, Ferrothorn, and Jellicent etc are out of the way, Kingdra makes their sweepers drop like flies. Against sun, Kingdra can come into anything Sucktails throws at it except Will-o-Wisp, set up rain dance, and proceed to annhilate everything that moves, and everthing that doesn't move. Against sand, Kingdra has a bit more problems, but if it gets a Rain Dance in, thats another 2/3 kills. Against non weather teams, well, you get the picture.
Speaking of Pokes that can run a weather move. Kingdra is a friggin beast. Although Drizzle+Swift Swim is banned, Kingdra still remains a potent offensive threat. Against Rain, the opponent sets up rain for you, and once Gastrodon, Ferrothorn, and Jellicent etc are out of the way, Kingdra makes their sweepers drop like flies. Against sun, Kingdra can come into anything Sucktails throws at it except Will-o-Wisp, set up rain dance, and proceed to annhilate everything that moves, and everthing that doesn't move. Against sand, Kingdra has a bit more problems, but if it gets a Rain Dance in, thats another 2/3 kills. Against non weather teams, well, you get the picture.
A good Excadrill player gets up sand and uses Excadrill to pretty much force a KO against that team before toed switches in, not directly sweep. Then something like Jellicent can swap right in because Politoed is pretty useless and you lose momentum, health to hazards, and accomplish nothing. New World, NP luke can't OHKO with modest LO vacuum wave and of course excadrill can see that a mile away.
Kingdra needs to run the rain LO set because otherwise it doesn't have enough power, but yea it is really powerful. WEather teams will pretty much have to sack something just to switch the weather and no one is actually prepared for Kingdra except having Ferrothorn by accident, which means that people won't always be so conservative with it as long as you keep bringing stuff like Terrakion and Breloom in on it.
Kingdra needs to run the rain LO set because otherwise it doesn't have enough power, but yea it is really powerful. WEather teams will pretty much have to sack something just to switch the weather and no one is actually prepared for Kingdra except having Ferrothorn by accident, which means that people won't always be so conservative with it as long as you keep bringing stuff like Terrakion and Breloom in on it.
I've already seen that combo, and it worked pretty well, though both Gyarados and Hitmontop don't enjoy switching into life orbed returns and Gyara is weal to SR so it hasn't unlimited switch ins unless it's defensive and has rest.
I think the only reason to use Conkeldurr over Hitmontop as a defensive Gyarados partner is drain punch (which grants some recovery) and a stronger mach punch.
I think the only reason to use Conkeldurr over Hitmontop as a defensive Gyarados partner is drain punch (which grants some recovery) and a stronger mach punch.
In theory that sounds really good but when I've used hitmontop I've found it is just walled so easily it isn't even funny. It counters TTar, checks Excadrill and Terrakion, and spins. That's pretty much it before Reuniclus, Gengar, Jellicent, Volcarona, ect start setting up on you. Though if you have something like Volcarona, foresight makes it pretty much an unblockable spinner.
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